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Confusing platform signposting at Heuston Station

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13

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    #62
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    cdeb wrote: »
    Yes, you can.

    You approach that door straight on. Not at a 90 degree angle. Therefore, the photo is taken from an irrelevant angle.

    This is not rocket science. And all the bureacratic nonsense in the world won't change that, just beyond that photo, are lots and lots and lots of clues as to which train the OP should have gotten.

    The ticket gates are not at an angle that is full on. The angle of the photo is the angle I walked through the ticket gates.


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    #63
    cdeb
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,153 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Just a reply to the poster who said "platforms come in twos". When you walk through the door which says platform 6 you only get to platform 5. Platform 6 actually doesn't start on the right hand side until about 20m further on.
    I said that.

    There's photographic evidence on this thread that disproves what you've just written here.


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    #64
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    cdeb wrote: »
    Yes, you can.

    You approach that door straight on. Not at a 90 degree angle. Therefore, the photo is taken from an irrelevant angle.

    This is not rocket science. And all the bureacratic nonsense in the world won't change that, just beyond that photo, are lots and lots and lots of clues as to which train the OP should have gotten.

    You just don't get it do you. This is not a game of cluedo. Proper signage removes any potential for error. There should be no need for "clues".


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    #65
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Just a reply to the poster who said "platforms come in twos". When you walk through the door which says platform 6 you only get to platform 5. Platform 6 actually doesn't start on the right hand side until about 20m further on.

    Yet according to the door, it only leads to Platform 6.


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    #66
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    cdeb wrote: »
    Yes, you can.

    You approach that door straight on. Not at a 90 degree angle. Therefore, the photo is taken from an irrelevant angle.

    This is not rocket science. And all the bureacratic nonsense in the world won't change that, just beyond that photo, are lots and lots and lots of clues as to which train the OP should have gotten.

    We are not talking about photos or clues, we are talking about the sign above the door.

    We are talking about a sign that says Platform 6 that leads to Platform 5 and 6.

    If a sign above a door leads to Platform 6, why is it possible to access platform 5 from said door?

    This fails TFL information standards.


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    #67
    cdeb
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,153 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    You just don't get it do you. This is not a game of cluedo. Proper signage removes any potential for error. There should be no need for "clues".
    I do get it.

    There's heaps of proper signage. Photos of this have been shown on this thread.

    You ignored it all. Even the people getting on the other train.

    Sorry, but this is mostly your fault, with acknowledgement that the train you did get should surely have been locked.

    Strike it down to experience and move on.


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    #68
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    cdeb wrote: »
    I do get it.

    There's heaps of proper signage. Photos of this have been shown on this thread.

    You ignored it all. Even the people getting on the other train.

    Sorry, but this is mostly your fault, with acknowledgement that the train you did get should surely have been locked.

    Strike it down to experience and move on.

    I didn't see people getting on the other train, because the other train doesn't come right up to the door that says platform 6. It starts about 20m ahead of you once you walk through the door. This is fact. You have to walk through platform 5 (which isn't signposted at the door) for 20m until you get to the train on platform 6. Meanwhile there's a train stretched out at the unsigned platform 5 which is the first thing you see coming through the door, walking from the ticket gate which is at an angle.

    Feels like I'm talking to children here. Then again I always found the provision of services in this country to be very childish and immature. True to form I guess.


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    #69
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    This thread is the very worst of the Irish "That'll Do" attitude that holds this country back. Too many people are of the belief that "okay" is good enough or if "It works most of the time for most people" it's okay.

    No wonder when a German colleague came to this country he told me that Germans would have a heart attack about the haphazard way our transport is run, he told me it was sloppy and like nobody took pride in their work and everybody didn't care about the bigger picture.

    Honestly, reading this thread and the other one about the bad state of transport in Ireland makes me want to cry, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one that wants to do a job well in this country and the best I can do it and take pride in my work, I see so much of the "This is how it is and if you don't like it that's tough, we're always right and you're wrong." attitude.

    Anyway, I'm not going to keep posting the same things over and over again, we'll have to agree to disagree on this, since I have a flight to catch to a country that has transport information provision 100x better than Dublin.


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    #70
    cdeb
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,153 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    devnull wrote: »
    This thread is the very worst of the Irish "That'll Do" attitude that holds this country back. Too many people are of the belief that "okay" is good enough or if "It works most of the time for most people" it's okay.
    It's nothing of the sort. It's people blaming everyone but themselves for their own mistakes, posting misleading photos as "evidence" - mistaking the way they're looking for the way the gates are facing; that kind of stuff.

    I've been on that platform many times, and how you miss the train and the people getting beyond it is beyond me. Especially when the train you do get on is empty.

    I don't care about anal bureacratic box-ticking about how the number 6 means it should be impossible to get to platform 5. The train is right there, with people getting on it and lots of activity. OP's fault.

    For the record, one of the most famous books by a German about our public transport system is Heinrich Böll's Irish Journal, written in the 50s when public transport was even more haphazard than it is now, and he loved the country and everything about it. Including the trains. Especially the trains, in fact. So this navel-gazing, self-loathing, the-Germans-are-better stuff is nonsense.

    I do agree that we'll have to agree to disagree.


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    #71
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,507 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    cdeb wrote: »
    Yes, you can.

    You approach that door straight on. Not at a 90 degree angle. Therefore, the photo is taken from an irrelevant angle.

    This is not rocket science. And all the bureacratic nonsense in the world won't change that, just beyond that photo, are lots and lots and lots of clues as to which train the OP should have gotten.

    The biggest clue, surely, is that to reach platform 6 the same train would have been sitting directly to the left of the OP for the entire walk; and that very same train was sitting at under a great big 5 sign when he passed the entrance to Platform 5.

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3465694,-6.2930171,3a,15y,256.19h,88.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRtuOThGCv0T4Z3jbfAGANg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1


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    #72
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    I didn't see people getting on the other train, because the other train doesn't come right up to the door that says platform 6. It starts about 20m ahead of you once you walk through the door. This is fact. You have to walk through platform 5 (which isn't signposted at the door) for 20m until you get to the train on platform 6. Meanwhile there's a train stretched out at the unsigned platform 5 which is the first thing you see coming through the door, walking from the ticket gate which is at an angle.

    Last thing I'll add.

    That Railing really doesn't help matters, you see a door saying 6, to one side is a railing and the other side there is a train/platform, which suggests that 6 must be on the other side because there is no platform to the right, just railing.

    Whilst I admit there is a 5 there at the end of the railing, it really should be further forward and much bigger. The 5 is tiny and should be full size one, rather than a small one which is placed too far away from the door that supposedly leads to 6.

    The problem here isn't just the door sign, it's also the presence of the railing, and the position and size of the "5" sign on the platform, both of which help cause potential confusion for people. Also I noticed today that the 5 sign being small means that when you walk through the door, it actually can be obscured by the pole 10m in front of it

    If you had the "5" full size, or just after coming through the door it would go some way to helping, but that in combination with the railing and the misleading door are all factors which would push you to thinking something which was incorrect.

    You go through a door saying 6, there is a railing one side, and a platform another, so surely the platform has to be the only one you can see? There is no obvious clear sign to say that it is not that platform, so nothing to make you think otherwise.


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    #73
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,507 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    devnull wrote: »
    Last thing I'll add.

    That Railing really doesn't help matters, you see a door saying 6, to one side is a railing and the other side there is a train/platform, which suggests that 6 must be on the other side because there is no platform to the right, just railing.

    Whilst I admit there is a 5 there at the end of the railing, it really should be further forward and much bigger. The 5 is tiny and should be full size one, rather than a small one which is placed too far away from the door that supposedly leads to 6.

    The problem here isn't just the door sign, it's also the presence of the railing, and the position and size of the "5" sign on the platform, both of which help cause potential confusion for people. Also I noticed today that the 5 sign being small means that when you walk through the door, it actually can be obscured by the pole 10m in front of it

    If you had the "5" full size, or just after coming through the door it would go some way to helping, but that in combination with the railing and the misleading door are all factors which would push you to thinking something which was incorrect.

    You go through a door saying 6, there is a railing one side, and a platform another, so surely the platform has to be the only one you can see? There is no obvious clear sign to say that it is not that platform, so nothing to make you think otherwise.

    When someone has walked for a few minutes with Platform 5 on their left hand side the entire time, will plenty of large signs that they've failed to notice, I'm not sure what (other than someone there to phyiscally guide them to the correct platform) is going to catch their notice.


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    #74
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    blackwhite wrote: »
    When someone has walked for a few minutes with Platform 5 on their left hand side the entire time, will plenty of large signs that they've failed to notice, I'm not sure what (other than someone there to phyiscally guide them to the correct platform) is going to catch their notice.

    Thats irrelevant really.

    The fact remains that there exists a door with a signpost saying 6 that opens onto 5.

    Where you walked previously or what signs exist further on are all irrelevant.


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    #75
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    cdeb wrote: »
    It's nothing of the sort. It's people blaming everyone but themselves for their own mistakes, posting misleading photos as "evidence" - mistaking the way they're looking for the way the gates are facing; that kind of stuff.

    Sometimes people make mistakes, sometimes people get confused, it doesn't mean that we should not try to do things that make it harder to make those same mistakes again in the future. It's called learning and improving things.

    When someone makes a mistake that leads to someone losing money, a crash, or fraud or someone committing a crime, should we just say that they made a mistake and forget about it or should we put steps in place to make sure it's harder for people to make the same mistakes.

    This is how things are improved. People look at human factors and say to themselves, they did something we did not expect them to do, should we just put it down to them being stupid or should we design our product or feature in mind to allow for this happening.

    This is what happens in aviation, so many airplane crashes have happened because of pilot error, do we just blame the pilots and do nothing? Or do we think about how we can change things to prevent them from making the same mistakes again?
    I've been on that platform many times, and how you miss the train and the people getting beyond it is beyond me.

    You are referencing your experience, the other person does not have experience, You fail to understand what usability is and you know the layout of the station, therefore you do not have to depend on signs since you have knowledge of it. You appear not to understand how the human brain works and handles situations. I'm sorry about that.
    I don't care about anal bureacratic box-ticking about how the number 6 means it should be impossible to get to platform 5.

    Because you have a That'll do attitude and if something is right for you, you don't care about what other people think. Do you think any passengers had any say in the layout of Irish Rail stations or the way they are laid out? Do you think they even cared what the passengers thought? Instead it's, here's what's decided, if you don't like it tough, now take your medicine and STFU whatever we say is right and whatever you say is wrong.
    or the record, one of the most famous books by a German about our public transport system is Heinrich Böll's Irish Journal, written in the 50s when public transport was even more haphazard than it is now, and he loved the country and everything about it. Including the trains. Especially the trains, in fact. So this navel-gazing, self-loathing, the-Germans-are-better stuff is nonsense.

    That's great, but we're not in the 1950s now we are in 2016.


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    #76
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    blackwhite wrote: »
    When someone has walked for a few minutes with Platform 5 on their left hand side the entire time, will plenty of large signs that they've failed to notice, I'm not sure what (other than someone there to phyiscally guide them to the correct platform) is going to catch their notice.

    Sorry but that's BS. I'm not looking around admiring the scenery of the train station on the way to platform 6. I am simply following signage to platform 6. Everything else is white noise. If I have to be gawking away at platform 5 while I walk then that is evidence of signage failure.

    I'm exiting this discussion. It is quite clear that some here do not hold an impartial view and have vested interests.

    Makes no difference to me if you think I'm wrong. A professional organisation will take complaints and criticism on board, not try to just blame the customer.

    I have no axe to grind with Irish Rail. As I said I almost never get the train here. I am pointing out confusing signage. Take it on board or ignore it. Suit yourselves.

    All the best.


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    #77
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    blackwhite wrote: »
    When someone has walked for a few minutes with Platform 5 on their left hand side the entire time, will plenty of large signs that they've failed to notice,

    That's great and some people might notice that, some people might not. It's great that some other signs are clearly marked and easy to understand.

    But it still doesn't mean the sign in question is right.

    As I said before, any sign which needs another sign to clarify what it means has failed.


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    #78
    cdeb
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,153 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Are you seriously comparing plane crashes with getting on the wrong train?

    Seriously?

    I don't see the relevance of your comment on Böll's book. It counters your nonsense suggestion that all Germans do is mock our public transport (not entirely sure why I should care about that anyway?)

    Your comments on not understanding how the human brain works are gibberish I'm afraid. All we've seen is a photo taken from an implausible angle which deliberately conceals lots of signs showing the correct train. I don't see why I should conclude that the OP is correct and needs to be mollycoddled as a result.


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    #79
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    cdeb wrote: »
    I don't see the relevance of your comment on Böll's book.

    I don't see what relevance a book written by someone in relation to railways in the 1950s has to do with the railways in 2016.
    Your comments on not understanding how the human brain works are gibberish I'm afraid.

    Fair enough, looks like my education in Trinity was wasted so and the Prof was off his rocker.


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    #80
    Del.Monte
    Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    cdeb wrote: »
    Are you seriously comparing plane crashes with getting on the wrong train?

    Seriously?

    I don't see the relevance of your comment on Böll's book. It counters your nonsense suggestion that all Germans do is mock our public transport (not entirely sure why I should care about that anyway?)

    Your comments on not understanding how the human brain works are gibberish I'm afraid. All we've seen is a photo taken from an implausible angle which deliberately conceals lots of signs showing the correct train. I don't see why I should conclude that the OP is correct and needs to be mollycoddled as a result.

    I don't see the relevance of you dragging some ancient tome by a German into a debate on Irish Rail signage.

    ****



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    #81
    cdeb
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,153 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    devnull wrote: »
    I don't see what relevance a book written by someone in relation to railways in the 1950s has to do with the railways in 2016.
    What, in the context of your comments of the German view of Irish public transport?

    You don't see how a German's view of Irish public transport could be relevant?

    Really?

    devnull wrote: »
    Fair enough, looks like my education in Trinity was wasted so and the Prof was off his rocker.
    Education in Trinity is almost entirely wasted.

    Seriously - the train was right there. With people getting on it. This is not difficult. OK, the sign said 6 and you could get to 5, but just get on the bloody train and stop moaning.


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    #82
    cdeb
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,153 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Anyways, this thread is going round and round. I've had my say, you've had yours. Some agree with me, some agree with you. But it's time to unsubscribe.


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    #83
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,587 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    cdeb wrote: »
    What, in the context of your comments of the German view of Irish public transport? You don't see how a German's view of Irish public transport could be relevant?

    If it was a recent book you'd have a point, but it wasn't it was getting on for 70 years ago and a hell of a lot has changed since that point, It's like me saying Preston North End are a poor football team compared to Leicester now and you turn around and say Preston won the league in the late 1950s so that invalidates my point.

    I'm talking about the here and now and the simple fact is our company has an office in Germany and sometimes people spend a while working in Dublin for long periods and often their family may visit at weekends and everyone universally agrees that the public transport provision and the information is dreadful and that Germans would have a heart attack.
    OK, the sign said 6 and you could get to 5,

    Hallelujah at last.


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    #84
    blackwhite
    Registered Users Posts: 8,507 ✭✭✭blackwhite


    intheclouds wrote: »
    Thats irrelevant really.

    The fact remains that there exists a door with a signpost saying 6 that opens onto 5.

    Where you walked previously or what signs exist further on are all irrelevant.

    Except it doesn't open onto 5.

    If you walk straight through the door, it brings you to platform 6

    It opens into an area that you can access the very end of 5 if you turn left, 6 if you continue straight on, or 7,8,9 and 10 if you turn right.
    I'd expect any grown adult, if they've just walked along the side of platform 5 to get there, to be able to distinguish that if the train was sitting at platform 5 50 metres previously, that the same train is still at platform 5!


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    #85
    Hilly Bill
    Registered Users Posts: 6,039 ✭✭✭Hilly Bill


    devnull wrote: »
    Apart from the screen that has been dead for 7 months outside the station and the ones inside that constantly get stuck or show the wrong time? :)

    Connolly has no serious issues, but the provision of information is very weak for what is Dublin's busiest station. It has a very similar provision to that of Heuston, screen wise, whilst that works for Heuston because of the far less trains going through it and it's easy to see all information on all trains, it doesn't work at Connolly.

    TICKET HALL

    Issue
    The screens in Connolly hall are not fit for purpose since they do not show enough trains. Showing one southbound DART and one Northbount DART in each direction is extremely poor.

    I have seen issues where a tourist or someone is waiting for a specific station name to come up on the board and they are unable to see it, but as soon as the one North/South train leaves, their train with their station leaves comes up with the station name that, for some people by the time they get to the actual platform the train may have gone. Most of these tourists will not know they can get any train, they will just know their station name where they need to go to.

    Fix:
    There should be far more screens there, ideally an additional 2 for DART services to show the next four trains, two in each direction. Generally adding an extra commuter one would be useful too.

    PLATFORM INFORMATION

    Issue:
    Platforms 6 and 7 are generally decently signed and do the basics well, however the big issue with these platforms is if you want to make a connection from the other Platforms, you have to literally run around to Platform 5 stairs to the screens to see table of departures, sometimes to realise you need to head back to the area you came from again for the actual train that is due to come next.

    Fix:
    A table of departures screen should be provided on those Platforms to prevent doubling back.

    Issue:
    It is impossible to know the stopping pattern or obvious destination of a Platform 4 train when coming from Platform 5, 6, 7. There is no screen there stating where the train is going to or stopping at. it's right at the front of the platform which if you are coming from 5, 6 or 7 means you have to go all the way to the front of the platform to find out and then double back.

    Fix:
    Provide another screen at the entrance from 5, 6 and 7 detailing where the train is going to and the stopping pattern.

    Issue
    Blue Screens do not provide detailed enough info on stopping patterns.

    Fix:
    If the train is a non stop Maynooth train, have a line underneath stating so. This can be a problem in conjunction with the problem directly above, it has been known for people to get on trains at Platform 4 that are non stop to Maynooth without knowing it, because there is no way to tell if it is non stop if you don't know the timetable.

    Issue
    At Platform screens are light on information and assume knowledge of trains and routes.

    Fix
    Provide full portrait style screens at every platform showing stopping patterns. Just simply saying all stations is not very helpful for a person who does not know the stopping pattern of a train, they want to see their station names. This fails one of the basic requirements of information screens. To inform the uninformed.

    The problems in Connolly generally are not that the information that is provided is bad, for the most part it isn't, it's just lacking in details and makes a presumption that you know what train you need to catch to get somewhere and know the stopping patterns of every train and know what platform it will leave form. It fails a lot in that regard.

    It's by far the worst station I've visited in Europe in this regard. Everywhere else I go, if I go to a platform and am not sure what train I have to get I just look for my destination on the list of calling stations, in Ireland that simply isn't possible, I have heard so many tourists give out about "what does all stations mean" it's just a lazy way of not having to list the actual stations a train calls at.

    I shouldn't have asked :-)


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    #86
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    blackwhite wrote: »
    Except it doesn't open onto 5.

    If you walk straight through the door, it brings you to platform 6

    It opens into an area that you can access the very end of 5 if you turn left, 6 if you continue straight on, or 7,8,9 and 10 if you turn right.
    I'd expect any grown adult, if they've just walked along the side of platform 5 to get there, to be able to distinguish that if the train was sitting at platform 5 50 metres previously, that the same train is still at platform 5!

    Brings you? Pray tell what this means? Does it, could it, mean that when you step through the door you're not immediately on platform 6?

    This is certainly confirmed by several google map images.

    It opens onto "an area".

    Ahhh......so not platform 6 then?

    Well, that's exactly the problem.

    What grown adults can distinguish from walks in other areas is completely unrelated.


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    #87
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    OP

    Had the train you boarded said Out of Service, what would you of done?


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    #88
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    intheclouds wrote: »
    Brings you? Pray tell what this means? Does it, could it, mean that when you step through the door you're not immediately on platform 6?

    This is certainly confirmed by several google map images.

    It opens onto "an area".

    Ahhh......so not platform 6 then?

    Well, that's exactly the problem.

    What grown adults can distinguish from walks in other areas is completely unrelated.

    You are been ridiculous, the door is platform 6, two signs is more than adequate information. The OP made a mistake and he needs to build a bridge and move on.

    ______

    Thousands of tourists don't even make such a mistake.......


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    #89
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,669 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Signs for 5 and 6.....

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3462474,-6.2960182,3a,15y,307.74h,88.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sysA7ZUaccxvYxaZj41bDcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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    #90
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    Signs for 5 and 6.....

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3462474,-6.2960182,3a,15y,307.74h,88.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sysA7ZUaccxvYxaZj41bDcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

    3 more signs for P5

    https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3462811,-6.2957685,3a,75y,353.43h,82.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZaSPHQTDD1nvNQnHajiPFQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


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    #91
    Chivito550
    Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Irish rail staff,

    Please explain why there is no "5" sign above the door leading to Platform 5.

    Everything else is irrelevant. Please deal with this issue as it is clear signage failure.

    Kind regards


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