Confusing platform signposting at Heuston Station

devnull

Bambi wrote: »

I dont use irish rail but back when I did I always ignored the signage and asked whichever shiny trousered layabout was at hand as to which train was which.

The signage was always misleading

Don't get me started on trains destination displays and passenger info displays and announcements on the commuter and dart 8600 fleet!!!!

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

It comes back to what I said earlier.

Any information sign, display or system that relies at all on you having to know how busy a train is, which train stops where or requires good knowledge of the station or it's layout has failed to adequately do it's job. The job of information is to inform, people who lack said knowledge, if it does not do that then it fails usability standards.

The Irish Rail defenders on here will never admit that however. Because the company is always right and the passenger is always wrong and should know better. And if all else fails blame the Government or the NTA.

well, i would suggest that in fact the NTA as the supposed transport regulator, are as much to blame for not forcing standards of information provision on the rail network as irish rail are for not bothering to implement reliable and easy to understand information. if irish rail won't do it then the NTA should be stepping up and pushing it through. That is in my view, what a regulator would do. But no that won't happen, because they're is nobody to stand up for the rail user when it comes down to it.

Mortpourvelo

Sorry the "Irish Rail Defender" is getting tiresome now.

I'm just a customer, they've screwed up in the past (once giving three different excuses for a cancelled train) but I am so tired of whiners blaming every little gripe.

Personal responsibility. Try it sometimes.

cdeb

I think that photo is very misleading.

That's not the angle at which you actually approach the door. If you were to take a photo walking up to the door, I'm sure you would see "6" on the right-hand side platform straight in front of you.

Concourses typically have platforms either side, and I don't know how you didn't see the train on the right with people getting on, and the info signs indicating the 2pm to Cork.

it's unfortunate that you were somehow allowed board a train going to the same place early, but I don't think that photo shows that IÉ are at fault.

end of the road

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Sorry the "Irish Rail Defender" is getting tiresome now.

I'm just a customer, they've screwed up in the past (once giving three different excuses for a cancelled train) but I am so tired of whiners blaming every little gripe.

Personal responsibility. Try it sometimes.

excuses excuses. the signs are confusing for the non regular user. irish rail's information provision is rubbish. end of. all the personal responsibility in the world won't change that fact.
i have been known to defend irish rail the odd time myself, but as far as i'm concerned when they are wrong, they are wrong, and i will say as such. and in this instance they are wrong.

Jamie2k9

end of the road wrote: »

excuses excuses. the signs are confusing for the non regular user. irish rail's information provision is rubbish. end of. all the personal responsibility in the world won't change that fact.
i have been known to defend irish rail the odd time myself, but as far as i'm concerned when they are wrong, they are wrong, and i will say as such. and in this instance they are wrong.

Rubbish, complete rubbish. as I said there is a second display after the door which shows the train destination and platform number. Also standard signage.

devnull

cdeb wrote: »

I think that photo is very misleading.

That's not the angle at which you actually approach the door. If you were to take a photo walking up to the door, I'm sure you would see "6" on the right-hand side platform straight in front of you.

Concourses typically have platforms either side, and I don't know how you didn't see the train on the right with people getting on, and the info signs indicating the 2pm to Cork.

it's unfortunate that you were somehow allowed board a train going to the same place early, but I don't think that photo shows that IÉ are at fault.

The sign is misleading and confusing because it does not reference platform 5 anywhere. Whilst concourses normally have platforms either side when they do platform numbers are always in pairs. Here they are not.

The simple issue is a door says platform six but it leads to five and six and therefore the sign is misleading. The information above the door is not strictly adequate.

This issue is easily resolved by having a sign with both platforms on with an arrow pointing left for 5 and right for 6. Alternatively simply make it so it's not possible for a door that says platform 6 to access platform 5 with a proper barrier or partition.

As someone who writes documentation and teaching materials the rule generally is if something is unclear it's not explained well enough and should be clearer.

Likewise here if anyone needs education or knowledge about a station or needs to take personal responsibility it means that the signs are met clear enough because good signage makes it impossible to make mistakes.

cdeb

devnull wrote: »

The sign is misleading and confusing because it does not reference platform 5 anywhere.

No, the photo doesn't reference platform 5, because the photo is bad.

Lots of stations around the world have doors that access two platforms - that's how platforms work; there's generally two of them together, with tracks either side of the main concourse. Then on the platform, an indication will be given as to which one is which.

Vic08 has shown google map images which show that actually the platforms are well laid out - and from having gotten the train often before and never once being confused, I have to agree.

This unfortunately is the OP's fault.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

Lets be fair though, the provision of information displays and general information at Irish Rail stations leaves a lot to be desired. I have been in 7 countries this year an Irish Rail is by far the worse for that, but that is in large part due to their approach to information.

Irish Rail seem to think information signs and boards are there for people who already know something about the layout of the station, when in fact information boards should be there to clearly give information to people who don't already have knowledge of the station.

The attitude from the Irish Rail defenders on this thread, if also that of management and staff within the company, explains a vast degree about why the information provision in English is worse than most countries where English isn't even an official language.

There are several serious usability flaws with the provision of Irish Rail information around the network and the stations that lead new customers and passengers to intense confusion because they are not clear and they are very confusing and badly laid out.

The UK may have it's problems with the rail system, but in the provision of information it is light years ahead of Irish Rail and other cities just as good if not better. Because it looks at information provision through the eyes of the passenger.

The standards for information display and way finding in most other countries is drawn up by getting people who had never been to the station before to complete certain tasks and see where they go wrong and what problems occur and what important information they can't get but they need.

This then influences the design to be changed to ensure that these problems do not happen and the information that passengers require they get in the revised information flows what they implement in stations and on platforms. This becomes the most important component in design of these systems.



The reason other coutnries don't go on what regular commuters think or staff members is this is people who already have knowledge of the station therefore this influences their decisions and does not really test how well signposted they are because people already know these things from memory.

Unfortunately Irish Rails' opinion for a long time has been that you should have all of the information ready and checked out and know the layout of the station perfectly before you come to the station and the signs are not there to help you or direct you but are just as some rough guide.

With this attitude to information it's no wonder we have a huge thread about why is Dublin's Public Transport so bad, if we can't even get the basics right what chance do we have with anything that is more advanced?

Connolly has serious issues with information provision as well, but at least all of the signs there are not misleading, even if the overall information provision leaves a lot to be desired.

What's the issue in Connolly?

Hilly Bill

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Come on a little harsh but it's not IE fault he missed the train. Perhaps an empty train was a big clue

Not harsh, the other train should have been closed. Yes. An empty train would be a give away as it being the wrong train. It's his own mistake but the surcharge should have been waived though.

devnull

cdeb wrote: »

No, the photo doesn't reference platform 5, because the photo is bad.

Lots of stations around the world have doors that access two platforms - that's how platforms work; there's generally two of them together, with tracks either side of the main concourse. Then on the platform, an indication will be given as to which one is which.

Vic08 has shown google map images which show that actually the platforms are well laid out - and from having gotten the train often before and never once being confused, I have to agree.

This unfortunately is the OP's fault.

I was down there earlier and had a look and whilst the photo makes it look worse than it is, still it shouldn't be possible to access Platform 5 from a door that says Platform 6. That door says Platform 6 and you can access Platform 5 from it, which is a problem.

This is resolved by either making Platform 5 inaccessible from a door which isn't signed for it, or by simply making it clearer from the door that Platform 6 is on the right. This is basic usability stuff. If a handful of people make a mistake because a sign is not clear, it means the sign can be improved, that is what we should do.

The problem with the Irish Rail attitude and Irish transport in general is that if 80% of people can get by with it and 20% of people can't, it means the 20% of people who get confused are wrong, and it is their fault and nothing should be done about it. Which is an extremely poor attitude to take.

A customer focused company would say, most people are getting it right, but a small percentage of people are still getting confused, what can we do in order to prevent anyone getting confused and improve the signage. The fact they don't shows Irish Rail don't have the attention to detail and are not interested in striving to be the best they can be, they simply settle for, if most people are okay, that is good enough which is a terrible approach to information provision.

end of the road

cdeb wrote: »

No, the photo doesn't reference platform 5, because the photo is bad.

Lots of stations around the world have doors that access two platforms - that's how platforms work; there's generally two of them together, with tracks either side of the main concourse. Then on the platform, an indication will be given as to which one is which.

Vic08 has shown google map images which show that actually the platforms are well laid out - and from having gotten the train often before and never once being confused, I have to agree.

This unfortunately is the OP's fault.

this fortunately, is not the ops fault. it's irish rail's fault for not having clear signage and information provision

Mortpourvelo

end of the road wrote: »

this fortunately, is not the ops fault. it's irish rail's fault for not having clear signage and information provision

They do. Some people just never accept it's their fault and some others have an axe to grind over everything a big company does.

God knows why!

devnull

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What's the issue in Connolly?

Apart from the screen that has been dead for 7 months outside the station and the ones inside that constantly get stuck or show the wrong time?

Connolly has no serious issues, but the provision of information is very weak for what is Dublin's busiest station. It has a very similar provision to that of Heuston, screen wise, whilst that works for Heuston because of the far less trains going through it and it's easy to see all information on all trains, it doesn't work at Connolly.

TICKET HALL

Issue
The screens in Connolly hall are not fit for purpose since they do not show enough trains. Showing one southbound DART and one Northbount DART in each direction is extremely poor.

I have seen issues where a tourist or someone is waiting for a specific station name to come up on the board and they are unable to see it, but as soon as the one North/South train leaves, their train with their station leaves comes up with the station name that, for some people by the time they get to the actual platform the train may have gone. Most of these tourists will not know they can get any train, they will just know their station name where they need to go to.

Fix:
There should be far more screens there, ideally an additional 2 for DART services to show the next four trains, two in each direction. Generally adding an extra commuter one would be useful too.

PLATFORM INFORMATION

Issue:
Platforms 6 and 7 are generally decently signed and do the basics well, however the big issue with these platforms is if you want to make a connection from the other Platforms, you have to literally run around to Platform 5 stairs to the screens to see table of departures, sometimes to realise you need to head back to the area you came from again for the actual train that is due to come next.

Fix:
A table of departures screen should be provided on those Platforms to prevent doubling back.

Issue:
It is impossible to know the stopping pattern or obvious destination of a Platform 4 train when coming from Platform 5, 6, 7. There is no screen there stating where the train is going to or stopping at. it's right at the front of the platform which if you are coming from 5, 6 or 7 means you have to go all the way to the front of the platform to find out and then double back.

Fix:
Provide another screen at the entrance from 5, 6 and 7 detailing where the train is going to and the stopping pattern.

Issue
Blue Screens do not provide detailed enough info on stopping patterns.

Fix:
If the train is a non stop Maynooth train, have a line underneath stating so. This can be a problem in conjunction with the problem directly above, it has been known for people to get on trains at Platform 4 that are non stop to Maynooth without knowing it, because there is no way to tell if it is non stop if you don't know the timetable.

Issue
At Platform screens are light on information and assume knowledge of trains and routes.

Fix
Provide full portrait style screens at every platform showing stopping patterns. Just simply saying all stations is not very helpful for a person who does not know the stopping pattern of a train, they want to see their station names. This fails one of the basic requirements of information screens. To inform the uninformed.

The problems in Connolly generally are not that the information that is provided is bad, for the most part it isn't, it's just lacking in details and makes a presumption that you know what train you need to catch to get somewhere and know the stopping patterns of every train and know what platform it will leave form. It fails a lot in that regard.

It's by far the worst station I've visited in Europe in this regard. Everywhere else I go, if I go to a platform and am not sure what train I have to get I just look for my destination on the list of calling stations, in Ireland that simply isn't possible, I have heard so many tourists give out about "what does all stations mean" it's just a lazy way of not having to list the actual stations a train calls at.

devnull

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

They do. Some people just never accept it's their fault and some others have an axe to grind over everything a big company does.

I used to work with someone involved in signage actually and their view was that if people are getting confused then it means that things can always be improved and his job was never done, he was never satisfied until he got everything working 100% right.

He came into a job where people had the attitude you do, they all said it was okay and everything was hunky dory in the place that he was working on the signs in and there was never a problem just the customers were being stupid or had a low IQ.

He re-signed the whole place after new management came in, every year the place did a survey on the company in general and one of the questions was how easy was it to find the way around the building. They got 97% satisfaction compared to 73% before.

He did this by eliminating even the smallest chance of confusion by making sure that every corner had a sign to what was in each direction and that each sign made it impossible to access other areas which were not signposted by walking down them so there was no chance to get lost.

One of the keys in proper information provision is to make it impossible to make mistakes, look out for any possible confusion or mis-understanding and eliminate the option of people making choices which will either confuse them or lead them to the wrong place. This person now is a usability expert who is earning well over 100k per year.

That's the trouble with Irish Society, when we want to do a job we want to do a job as quick as we can with as little hassle as we can.When the Germans and others do a job they want to do a job perfectly.

end of the road

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

They do.

wrong, they don't. if they did then they're wouldn't be a thread and people wouldn't be caught out regularly.

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Some people just never accept it's their fault and some others have an axe to grind over everything a big company does.

God knows why!

everyone accepts it's their fault when it is, but rightly don't when it isn't which it isn't in the ops case.

magicbastarder

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

They do. Some people just never accept it's their fault and some others have an axe to grind over everything a big company does.

God knows why!

you yourself claim to be a regular and long term user of the station, so therefore - as mentioned - you would be relatively blind to signage errors. there's a difference between a sign being factually incorrect and one which has inadequate information, but if you saw the latter you wouldn't think twice about it because you don't need to know what the missing info is.

Jamie2k9

I am on platform 5 now, and as you exit the doors at 6 there is clearly two signs indicating platform 5 and 6 next to information display on the platform which also shoes platform 6.

Mortpourvelo

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I am on platform 5 now, and as you exit the doors at 6 there is clearly two signs indicating platform 5 and 6 next to information display on the platform which also shoes platform 6.

I'll be there in half an hour and should my train go from Platform 6 which it did the other night also - you walk through that door photographed (but OP photographed at an angle kinder to their point) and right in front of you is the layout for Platform 6.

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I am on platform 5 now, and as you exit the doors at 6 there is clearly two signs indicating platform 5 and 6 next to information display on the platform which also shoes platform 6.

What other signs say doesn't matter. The simple fact is a sign saying platform six leads to platform 5 which should never be the case.

The sign should be clarified with addition of arrows or access to 5 from a door that says 6 only removed. The door says it leads to one platform but it leads to two.

It's great other signs are clearer but the door one still is incorrect and would fail most signage guidelines around the world.

Jamie2k9

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

I am on platform 5 now, and as you exit the doors at 6 there is clearly two signs indicating platform 5 and 6 next to information display on the platform which also shoes platform 6.

I'll be there in half an hour and should my train go from Platform 6 which it did the other night also - you walk through that door photographed (but OP photographed at an angle kinder to their point) and right in front of you is the layout for Platform 6.

Exactly and of you look up u will also see the sign!

Dyr

From what I remember of westland row dart station the platform signage is equally weird

devnull

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Exactly and of you look up u will also see the sign!

The sign is misleading and fails a basic sign usability test that is used in London and other cities.

For those who dispute this, please answer the below questions directly
1) What Platforms does the sign above the door indicate it is for?
2) What Platforms can be accessed from the door.

What other signs say further down the platform doesn't matter, what we are talking about is the accuracy of this sign and this sign alone, any sign which needs further signs to clarify it, again means that the first sign does not do it's job properly.

If the answers are not the same, this means that the sign is misleading because what the sign says versus what the reality is, is different, therefore this would not be permitted under TFL guidelines because it would be considered as misleading and likely to confuse.

The core issue is here a door that is marked as Platform 6 allows access to Platform 5 and 6 therefore the door is mis-labeled and would fail usability tests and would not be permitted on TFL and other stations around Europe because of it's potential to confuse.

For it to pass, one of the following would have to happen
- The door should be labeled as Platform 5 and 6 giving clear indications of which side was which
- The door should only have access to platforms which are indicated above it.

cdeb

Ah would you stop.

The sign isn't misleading. The OP got the wrong train. That's unfortunate, but if they've been around as many trains as they say they have been, you'd have to argue it was rather careless on their part.

Platforms come in twos. Platforms 5 and 6 are clearly signposted through the door - visible from the door in fact.

There is no need for clearer signposting because someone carelessly ignored the existing signs and got the wrong train. The only thing I'd question is why the wrong train was open in the first place.

devnull

Mortpourvelo wrote: »

I'll be there in half an hour and should my train go from Platform 6 which it did the other night also - you walk through that door photographed (but OP photographed at an angle kinder to their point) and right in front of you is the layout for Platform 6.

This is why usability experts often draft in people who have little knowledge of a city to test their systems and signage because this is proper testing of such signage. A regular user saying a sign is correct is worth very little to professionals who plan these things out.

Regular users do not look at things objectively, because they know the station layout therefore this knowledge makes them make a more educated decision based on their past experiences. They are much more interested in how people new to the station find it.

Someone who has never been in a station, hospital of university campus before rely totally on signs so they are able to spot potential pitfalls easier since they are being guided by the signs and do not have knowledge to fall back on.

They did not spend millions on remodeling Birmingham New Street for instance and flying in people from other countries and people who had never visited Birmingham before to test the new concourse before it was opened for the fun of it.

cdeb

devnull wrote: »

Regular users do not look at things objectively,

But no user looks at things at the angle the OP did in the photo they posted.

That photo was actively deliberately misleading.

devnull

cdeb wrote: »

The sign isn't misleading.

The sign says the door allows access to platform 6 but it allows access to 5 and 6. Therefore it has failed.

It must be changed to reflect the reality, or access to a platform it is not signed for removed.

The OP got the wrong train. That's unfortunate, but if they've been around as many trains as they say they have been, you'd have to argue it was rather careless on their part.

Any sign that requires previous knowledge has failed.

Platforms 5 and 6 are clearly signposted through the door

Any sign which needs another sign to clarify it has failed.

There is no need for clear er signposting because someone carelessly ignored the existing signs and got the wrong train.

If a sign leads to even a small number of people being confused, we should try and reduce that number as far as possible so there is no room for confusion at all.

It's called attention to detail and wanting to do the best we can.

devnull

cdeb wrote: »

But no user looks at things at the angle the OP did in the photo they posted.

How long have you been using Heuston for? I don't think if you are an experienced user you can make that call.

I agree the rest of the signage on the Platform makes it more clear, but the sign above the door could be made clearer.

That photo was actively deliberately misleading.

Yet in the TFL passenger information standards, written by a usability firm, such sign would not be allowed because it is confusing because the sign leads to an area which is different from what it says it does because a door that leads to platforms, must only lead to platforms that are indicated adjacent to such door.

I agree that the photo was misleading somewhat, but the facts is it shouldn't be possible to access Platform 5 from a door that says only platform 6 and this is the core issue here.

As I said, easy fix, remove access to platform 5 from a door that says platform 6, very easy.

Chivito550

Just a reply to the poster who said "platforms come in twos". When you walk through the door which says platform 6 you only get to platform 5. Platform 6 actually doesn't start on the right hand side until about 20m further on. So to get to platform 6, you must walk through 20m of platform 5 before you even get to the start of platform 6. Yet there is no signage for platform 5. Of course this whole layout and poor signage is confusing.

You'd wonder do some of the posters here work for Irish Rail. The posts here are identical to what some staff said to me yesterday.

cdeb

devnull wrote: »

How long have you been using Heuston for? I don't think if you are an experienced user you can make that call.

Yes, you can.

You approach that door straight on. Not at a 90 degree angle. Therefore, the photo is taken from an irrelevant angle.

This is not rocket science. And all the bureacratic nonsense in the world won't change that, just beyond that photo, are lots and lots and lots of clues as to which train the OP should have gotten.