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Next Generation runthrough

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    #92
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    With Troi, her mother was far the better character and better actress. Her appearances in DS9 were fantastic.


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    #93
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Mrwhite1970 wrote: »
    I think Troi was badly constructed and badly enacted. The counselor idea was so 1980s . Her telepathy was weak and obvious.

    Yeah I gave off a lot about Troi in this thread but in retrospect I think the writing and character base was at most fault. When she had something to do, Sirtis was fine and showed some capability; her best episode was Face of the Enemy and without the baggage of all that wishy-washy, clearly badly researched therapy that made the technobaabble seem legit, Sirtis did well posing as the Romulan. Too often though she got stuck being this new-age target for bad romance plots that were either sub Mills & Boon, or else plain creepy and predatory.


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    #94
    donspeekinglesh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭donspeekinglesh


    I've found Sirtis fine given the stories she had, the exception being Schisms - she seemed really uninterested in that.
    She and Gates were criminally underused in Qpid - they were the only two cast members with stage sword fighting training, and the only two to do no sword fighting.


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    #95
    Indricotherium
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,577 ✭✭✭Indricotherium


    pixelburp wrote: »
    Phew... finished! All 170+ episodes watch..................could have really opened up plots. Just a shame CBS seem intent on going backwards.

    Great summary, however, summarising tng and not mentioning the Borg!?!?!?!?

    The Borg (in tng) are the best star trek I think.

    Introduced as an implacable unrelenting foe, and gradually revealed to be the dark mirror for the federation. Extolling basically the same values as the federation just pushed to their ultimate.

    If ds9 had come first, and the producers were confident in 6/7/8/..... episode arcs the Borg could have been the best television ever.


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    #96
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Indricotherium wrote: »
    Great summary, however, summarising tng and not mentioning the Borg!?!?!?!?

    Honestly, the Borg weren't in the show half as much as I expected given their status in fandom, nor were they as scary or threatening as they've subsequently become. Bar the Picard to Lucutus plot, I don't recall any assimilations or incidents that made the Borg particularly threatening. Indeed the Lucutus plot was almost immediately undermined by its reversal and one-episode 'recovery' arc, if you could call it that. Wolf 359 is famous in the lore, but it wasn't until DS9 that we saw it in action. And speaking of 'lore', the Borg's last appearance was a Lore bottle-episode, not really befitting their standing. If anything, I found the Romulans more threatening throughout the series.


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    #97
    SimonTemplar
    Registered Users Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭SimonTemplar


    I do agree that the Romulans were more threatening throughout the entire series. There is something about a warbird decloaking in front of the Enterprise that can send shivers down the spine. I think the horror and menace the Borg posed were pretty well realized in First Contact.

    Q Who, Best of Both Worlds and First Contact really represent the best that Star Trek has to offer in terms of the Borg. I do like that Hugh episode but that is more of a typical Star Trek moral dilemma story rather than the threat posed by the Borg.

    Others may disagree, but I would love to see the Chris Pine crew get a shot at a Borg story. I mean, it would make absolutely no sense from a continuity point of view, but let's face it, I I doubt the writers would care too much about that. They are such a great villain if the writing is good, and there is definitely potential there. I'd much rather the Borg that the Idris Elba non-character from ST Beyond.


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    #98
    JayRoc
    Registered Users Posts: 1,578 ✭✭✭JayRoc


    donspeekinglesh wrote: »
    She and Gates were criminally underused in Qpid - they were the only two cast members with stage sword fighting training, and the only two to do no sword fighting.

    Drives me mad every time I watch it. I am definitely not one to see sexism at every opportunity but it was ridiculous how the lads got to swordfight and the girls had to make do with gently breaking pots over people's heads.


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    #99
    Goodshape
    Registered Users Posts: 8,488 ✭✭✭Goodshape


    On Romulans vs Borg, I never really got the impression that the Romulans would do anything. It was a cold war situation... sure they'd de-cloak and look threatening every so often in those cool ships and military uniforms, but neither themselves nor the federation ever really wanted to risk a war.

    The Borg on the other hand were unstoppable in TNG. They may have only been used properly in a couple of episodes but that just underlined the point really. When they do show up, it's a really big deal.


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    #100
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Goodshape wrote: »
    On Romulans vs Borg, I never really got the impression that the Romulans would do anything. It was a cold war situation... sure they'd de-cloak and look threatening every so often in those cool ships and military uniforms, but neither themselves nor the federation ever really wanted to risk a war.

    The Borg on the other hand were unstoppable in TNG. They may have only been used properly in a couple of episodes but that just underlined the point really. When they do show up, it's a really big deal.

    I dunno: the Romulans were nearly always up to something. Whether it was up-front or a scheme in the background (like their brainwashing of Geordi - another potentially great multi-episode arc) it was very like the Cold War in that their actions were around the fringes. The Borg just tended to sit there in space and make speeches about assimilation. They never actually did any; not on-screen anyway.


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    #101
    Jan_de_Bakker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭Jan_de_Bakker


    I watched the Defector last night.

    Great Romulan episode, even if those shoulder pads were a bit OTT .. :D

    You can see the quality really kicks up a notch from S3 on ...


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    #102
    donspeekinglesh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭donspeekinglesh


    pixelburp wrote: »
    . The Borg just tended to sit there in space and make speeches about assimilation. They never actually did any; not on-screen anyway.

    Budget reasons probably. I've been reading the notes in Memory Alpha as I watch, and it's amazing how many episodes were attempts to save money, and not just rubbish like Shades of Grey, but even Chain of Command was a rare in season two-parter, since it was cheap with mostly Picard in a room being tortured.


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    #103
    Inviere
    Registered Users Posts: 7,467 ✭✭✭Inviere


    I'd agree with the sentiment that the Borg really only shone twice in TNG. Q-Who and BoBW, after that is started going downhill. There was a sinister menace about them in those two eps, primarily because less is more when it comes to the Borg. The more we knew about them, the mystique was lost (as was their seeming unstoppablness).

    Retro Computers/Consoles Repair/Restoration List



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    #104
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    I do think the Borg were nerfed more and more as all of the series went on. When they're initially introduced they're a literal black box flying through the galaxy, apparently with no interest in trade or diplomacy, no sense of morality and completely impervious to whatever the Enterprise can throw at them.

    In fact, we see that vulnerabilities are quickly shored up, so even if you improve, they quickly improve and rise above you.

    A single cube arrives in federation space and annihilates the fleet. OK, so it's defeated in a relatively simple way, but one that's consistent - Data is apparently unique throughout the galaxy. So the Borg would have not considered the possibility that an A.I. could infiltrate their systems and do any damage. Up to that point, all intelligence that connected to their collective was organic and therefore was assimilated.

    This was kind of "peak" Borg. A narrow escape for the federation, showing that they're out of options if the Borg attack again.

    But then beginning with the encounter with Hugh, the Borg become a softer, more fragile enemy. The collective is apparently relatively easily corrupted or manipulated, despite what's supposed to be a sophisticated adaptability.

    First Contact establishes that cubes are relatively easily defeated with some heavy fire concentrated on them - for some reason the federation have been able to upgrade all their weaponry since Wolf 359, but the Borg haven't adapted or improved at all and fail to adapt during the battle.

    And from there on through Voyager it just becomes a matter of the Borg throwing ever larger volumes of Borg at humans, humans figuring out how to defeat them, and it moves on. The trump card the Borg had which allowed a single cube to destroy practically the whole fleet at Wolf 359 - their adaptability - is reduced to an irritating trick that humans work around every time.
    Somehow, a small group of humans on a single ship are consistently able to adapt faster than the entire Borg collective. Which makes no sense.

    We got two glimpses through the whole franchise of what encounters with the Borg should be like. The first was Parellels where we saw an alternative timeline Riker, desperate and dishevelled, pleading not to go back because the "Borg are everywhere". The second was Year of Hell in Voyager, which wasn't the Borg but showed what happened when under constant pursuit from a relentless and superior enemy.


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    #105
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Deleted User wrote: »
    With Troi, her mother was far the better character and better actress. Her appearances in DS9 were fantastic.
    I still think they need to dump the telepath thing. It should have been one of those nonsense 60s hangups that got left in the 60s.


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    #106
    Bacchus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,699 ✭✭✭Bacchus


    seamus wrote: »
    We got two glimpses through the whole franchise of what encounters with the Borg should be like. The first was Parellels where we saw an alternative timeline Riker, desperate and dishevelled, pleading not to go back because the "Borg are everywhere". The second was Year of Hell in Voyager, which wasn't the Borg but showed what happened when under constant pursuit from a relentless and superior enemy.

    You know what, if they ever make another series that is set beyond TNG/DS9/VOY, I'd love to see a galaxy where the Borg have actually achieved dominance and you have allegiances between the different species to work together to survive... or maybe a "last hope" type mission into deep space to find the "golden chalice" that would give them a weapon against the unstoppable Borg. That way you keep the treking but you have this overall arc of the Borg threat.


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    #107
    Jan_de_Bakker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭Jan_de_Bakker


    I always felt they pussied out on that episode with Hugh, Picard wouldn't have been turned around so easily, look at what he has been through, I know he is the great diplomat but at the end of the day he is human ...

    They should have went through with the original plan and destroyed the Borg when they had the chance ... it was a ridiculous story.

    After that the Borg were ****e as a species.


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    #108
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    Bacchus wrote: »
    You know what, if they ever make another series that is set beyond TNG/DS9/VOY, I'd love to see a galaxy where the Borg have actually achieved dominance and you have allegiances between the different species to work together to survive... or maybe a "last hope" type mission into deep space to find the "golden chalice" that would give them a weapon against the unstoppable Borg. That way you keep the treking but you have this overall arc of the Borg threat.

    There's a theory that since the Q can see the future, they did see the Borg assimilate the galaxy so Q helped the Federation by alerting them!


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    #109
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    ScumLord wrote: »
    I still think they need to dump the telepath thing. It should have been one of those nonsense 60s hangups that got left in the 60s.
    I do think it's funny that telepathy has managed to make its way into general sci-fi canon; like it's an established fact that at least one alien race will be biologically telepathic (as opposed to developing mind-reading technology).
    When realistically there is no good basis in science for it and it really belongs in the realms of Lord of the Rings, Marvel/DC and other fantasy universes.

    Though given the existence of Q, Star Trek never really constrained itself much with what was foreseeably possible and kind of went exploring every possibility they could think of.


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    #110
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Inviere wrote: »
    I'd agree with the sentiment that the Borg really only shone twice in TNG. Q-Who and BoBW, after that is started going downhill. There was a sinister menace about them in those two eps, primarily because less is more when it comes to the Borg. The more we knew about them, the mystique was lost (as was their seeming unstoppablness).

    Thinking on things, and to play devil's advocate, I'd suspect ultimately the Trek writers had to deal with a bit of a Superman scenario: if you make your character/race so supremely powerful that almost nothing can stop it, there's absolutely no drama or story to be mined here, at least nothing sustainable - and any attempts to curtail that power risks looking contrived. Ironically for a show containing Q, the Borg were arguably made too powerful that a storyline could be written around.

    Sure, someone mentioned running with the 'Parallels' version of a Federation near-collapsed because of the Borg, who honestly the thought of a 'Star Trek: The Walking Dead' sounds miserable and with fairly limited storytelling potential.


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    #111
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,670 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    IvySlayer wrote: »
    There's a theory that since the Q can see the future, they did see the Borg assimilate the galaxy so Q helped the Federation by alerting them!

    If I remember right, Picard says something similar at the end of Q Who - maybe Q did the right thing for the wrong reason.

    Even though it altered the Borg to the presence of the Federation - although you could argue that they were already aware of it due to their interactions with the Hansens and Seven of Nine (or even the ENT episode) which chronologically happened before Q Who (I think I remember reading somewhere that the Cube the Enterprise-D encounters in J25 was already heading their way because of those previous encounters), it allowed the Federation to prepare for their arrival as well.


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    #112
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    If I remember right, Picard says something similar at the end of Q Who - maybe Q did the right thing for the wrong reason.

    Even though it altered the Borg to the presence of the Federation - although you could argue that they were already aware of it due to their interactions with the Hansens and Seven of Nine (or even the ENT episode) which chronologically happened before Q Who (I think I remember reading somewhere that the Cube the Enterprise-D encounters in J25 was already heading their way because of those previous encounters), it allowed the Federation to prepare for their arrival as well.

    Also in Voyager when the other Q wanted to commit suicide. Q says without them the Federation would have been assimilated


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    #113
    Jan_de_Bakker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭Jan_de_Bakker


    woah woah ... Borg in Enterprise ??


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    #114
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »
    woah woah ... Borg in Enterprise ??
    Yeah. There was one episode; pretty good one actually. I only saw it once so I forget the details. Basically an archeology team find wreckage in the antarctic that they determine to be an alien spacecraft, with bodies inside. We know they're Borg, but the humans haven't a clue what's going on. The drones regenerate themselves after being thawed and come to life.
    They then manage to steal a ship and leave the earth. The Enterprise chases it down and destroys it, but not before the Borg ship sends out a signal to the Delta Quadrant. The Enterprise reckons it will take about 200 years for the signal to reach the Delta Quadrant, which then explains the events in "Q Who" and why there was a cube en route to earth in the first place. The humans don't know what those aliens were or why they sent a signal.

    Archer tells of a story he heard about Zefram Cochrane who told a tale of strange robot-aliens who tried to take over earth, etc. - the events of First Contact - but everyone had just dismissed this as Cochrane being an old drunkard. Which reveals to us that the Borg they had discovered was the wreckage from the sphere destroyed by the Enterprise-E.

    A good episode if I recall, but the Borg are always such an easy device to write a good story around.


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    #115
    Jan_de_Bakker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭Jan_de_Bakker


    I just went ahead and bought the BluRay box set of all TNG :)

    Even though i always harped on about how I prefer it streaming :) - marketing eh ?

    Its on amazon.es for €69 ... bargain


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    #116
    Jan_de_Bakker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭Jan_de_Bakker


    seamus wrote: »
    Yeah. There was one episode; pretty good one actually. I only saw it once so I forget the details. Basically an archeology team find wreckage in the antarctic that they determine to be an alien spacecraft, with bodies inside. We know they're Borg, but the humans haven't a clue what's going on. The drones regenerate themselves after being thawed and come to life.
    They then manage to steal a ship and leave the earth. The Enterprise chases it down and destroys it, but not before the Borg ship sends out a signal to the Delta Quadrant. The Enterprise reckons it will take about 200 years for the signal to reach the Delta Quadrant, which then explains the events in "Q Who" and why there was a cube en route to earth in the first place. The humans don't know what those aliens were or why they sent a signal.

    Archer tells of a story he heard about Zefram Cochrane who told a tale of strange robot-aliens who tried to take over earth, etc. - the events of First Contact - but everyone had just dismissed this as Cochrane being an old drunkard. Which reveals to us that the Borg they had discovered was the wreckage from the sphere destroyed by the Enterprise-E.

    A good episode if I recall, but the Borg are always such an easy device to write a good story around.

    Wow sounds like a good episode allright, I must check it out since its on Netflix ..


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    #117
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »
    Wow sounds like a good episode allright, I must check it out since its on Netflix ..

    99% of Enterprise is awful, unfortunately.


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    #118
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,670 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »
    Wow sounds like a good episode allright, I must check it out since its on Netflix ..

    Season 2, Episode 23 - Regeneration :)


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    #119
    IvySlayer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,187 ✭✭✭✭IvySlayer


    seamus wrote: »
    I do think it's funny that telepathy has managed to make its way into general sci-fi canon; like it's an established fact that at least one alien race will be biologically telepathic (as opposed to developing mind-reading technology).
    When realistically there is no good basis in science for it and it really belongs in the realms of Lord of the Rings, Marvel/DC and other fantasy universes.

    Though given the existence of Q, Star Trek never really constrained itself much with what was foreseeably possible and kind of went exploring every possibility they could think of.

    Elephants, giraffe etc communicate on frequencies humans can't hear, probably the same with telepaths. I don't think telepathy is so far fetched personally.


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    #120
    Jan_de_Bakker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭Jan_de_Bakker


    Watched Deja Q the other night, it was a great episode actually - I remembered it being so so , really funny too - that last scene when Q
    returns :D - the cigars!!! I love the way he winds JLP up ...


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    #121
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users Posts: 28,670 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »
    Watched Deja Q the other night, it was a great episode actually - I remembered it being so so , really funny too - that last scene when Q
    returns :D - the cigars!!! I love the way he winds JLP up ...

    Ah yes.. one of the best Q episodes as well as one of the best scenes in the show:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fo_VXl5cb00


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