Next Generation runthrough

Following on from the DS9 run through, I've just started doing the same with Next Generation. Just on the first episode.

Some thoughts:

Unbelievably and hilariously camp.

Random guy wearing a dress (actual dress) uniform. Really muscular dude. In a dress. Never saw that uniform again.

Colm Meaney's character "Miles O' Brien" is simply referred to as Colm.

The higher definition works against the make-up as you could clearly see where Worf ends and Dorn begins.

Edit: his name is Conn.

Optimus Prime

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Following on from the DS9 run through, I've just started doing the same with Next Generation. Just on the first episode.

Some thoughts:

Unbelievably and hilariously camp.

Random guy wearing a dress (actual dress) uniform. Really muscular dude. In a dress. Never saw that uniform again.

Colm Meaney's character "Miles O' Brien" is simply referred to as Colm.

The higher definition works against the make-up as you could clearly see where Worf ends and Dorn begins.

Edit: his name is Conn.

I assumed he was saying conn because he is at the "conn"

Optimus Prime

Optimus Prime wrote: »

I assumed he was saying conn because he is at the "conn"

I never thought of that at all. When Picard first said it, it sounded so much like Colm.

The_Valeyard

Usually people argue his rank.

degrassinoel

/bites

Wasn't he transporter chief by the end of TNG?

The_Valeyard

degrassinoel wrote: »

/bites

Wasn't he transporter chief by the end of TNG?

Dont do it.

Skipped to Q-Who, which is the first introduction of the Borg, and he was referred to as "Miles".

pixelburp

I managed to get to the first third of season 2 before I myself decided to skip straight to season 3 and yeah, as a first time watching the show sequentially, the quality uptick is pronounced. Now on season 4 and it seems lightyears (hey oh!) since those episodes with space Zulus and 'Justice'.

Deleted User wrote: »

Skipped to Q-Who, which is the first introduction of the Borg, and he was referred to as "Miles".

The borg baby was a surprise; presumably this was an early piece of canon quickly forgotten, yeah?

pixelburp

The HD transfer also highlights how much cheap, office carpet decorates the Enterprise floors - and walls!

Goodshape

I really like those first couple of seasons, but they really are like a different show altogether. The music, costumes, lighting and set decoration, camera work, writing, even the acting, all changed drastically for the better in season three and four.

But the first two were fun and had a handful of interesting episodes and ideas which would have seemed out of place later on and/or were just never returned to again.

If it's your first run though then they're mostly skipable (bar at least a few, like Measure of a Man, Elementary Dear Data, and Q Who) if your struggling with the style. Get to the objectively good stuff, no harm. But they're worth revisiting if/when you've already warmed to the show and characters.

IvySlayer

Its the Gene Roddenberry effect, he had a lot of good ideas, and a lot of bad ideas too. He had certain rules and style, once he was kicked out of creative control after Season 2, TNG became the show we all love.

He hated Wrath of Khan and produced The Motion Picture.

He had ideas but needed other writers to make Star Trek good. And good it got!

Bacchus

degrassinoel wrote: »

/bites

Wasn't he transporter chief by the end of TNG?

This in no way answers your question but...

http://chiefobrienatwork.com

The_Valeyard

Bacchus wrote: »

This in no way answers your question but...

http://chiefobrienatwork.com

Yeah I've seen these pop up recently. Quite funny some of them

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

I managed to get to the first third of season 2 before I myself decided to skip straight to season 3 and yeah, as a first time watching the show sequentially, the quality uptick is pronounced. Now on season 4 and it seems lightyears (hey oh!) since those episodes with space Zulus and 'Justice'.



The borg baby was a surprise; presumably this was an early piece of canon quickly forgotten, yeah?

Absolutely! I saw that and thought, uh, what?

I guess they hadn't figured out the assimilation factor at that stage. The HD upgrade really didn't help early-Borg costumes and they looked so much like crazy people walking around with pipes and wires attached to them

Beefy78

What are our thoughts on TNG as a show? I seem to read and hear a lot of negativity about it nowadays. That it is a bit bland and safe?

pixelburp

Beefy78 wrote: »

What are our thoughts on TNG as a show? I seem to read and hear a lot of negativity about it nowadays. That it is a bit bland and safe?

It's not bland, but it shows its age in places. It's procedural to a fault, and in this day & age of serialised TV, the complete lack of any plot arcs or character progression can be jarring. Sometimes an episode will hark back to something that happened previously, like Worf's relationship with the Klingon homeworld but it doesn't define the show. Same with things like the Romulans: occasionally their presence will hint at bigger events or arcs, but it's never explored that extensively. By each episodes end, everything goes back to normal.

There's also zero tension of any kind between the crew, and it doesn't help either that the acting is also really, really stiff & inorganic in places; not sure if it's the actors or the scripts but sometimes the crew come across like, well, a bunch of actors pretending to have lives. Most recently in my runthrough I remember a dinner scene between Miles and his wife and it felt like whoever wrote it never sat down to a meal in their life - or indeed ever had a significant other.

If that all sounds negative - it isn't meant to be! I'm generally enjoying the show & when it gets things right, that balance between the character and the 'action' of Federation adventures, I can see why it has endured in the memory. The aforementioned Worf stories have been an unexpected surprise. Ditto stuff with Q or the Borg. But more often than not the 'human' material really lets it down.

(Full disclosure: I came into Trek through Deep Space 9 and the Original series, so my appreciation of Trek started somewhere between the swashbuckling adventures of Kirk & the political complexities of Sisko's life)

Cookie_Monster

pixelburp wrote: »

The borg baby was a surprise; presumably this was an early piece of canon quickly forgotten, yeah?

no, voyager references it a few times with the ol' "maturation chambers". Assimilated Juveniles still grew up into drones. I think if you allow that that baby was not born but assimilated it still sits in there nicely with the rest of the established canon.

Quandary

Just watched "The Inner Light" for the first time in ages. What a brilliant episode that was. TNG is my favourite trek series. It has a real nostalgic quality to it since I grew up watching it after school

ScumLord

pixelburp wrote: »

There's also zero tension of any kind between the crew, and it doesn't help either that the acting is also really, really stiff & inorganic in places; not sure if it's the actors or the scripts but sometimes the crew come across like, well, a bunch of actors pretending to have lives. Most recently in my runthrough I remember a dinner scene between Miles and his wife and it felt like whoever wrote it never sat down to a meal in their life - or indeed ever had a significant other.

That's due to the characters were supposed to be well adjusted people that don't default to drama. It was showing a different type of person which made the show stand out.

Sci fi today puts no effort into showing a different culture. It's just the current culture with a half arsed view of the future. That's why a lot of sci fi dates so horribly, once the current culture is replaced the sci fi looks dated.

pixelburp

ScumLord wrote: »

That's due to the characters were supposed to be well adjusted people that don't default to drama. It was showing a different type of person which made the show stand out.

Sci fi today puts no effort into showing a different culture. It's just the current culture with a half arsed view of the future. That's why a lot of sci fi dates so horribly, once the current culture is replaced the sci fi looks dated.

I wasn't suggesting there needed to be some contrived romantic triangle, betrayals or anything, but the main cast had Worf and Data, two characters openly disconnected from Federation norms yet the show rarely worked with that material; when it did you got those slightly weird Data-centric episodes about a hitherto unseen friend falling in love with him.

I just finished 'Ensign Ro', having started Season 5 and my takeaway was of a missed opportunity for a really interesting dynamic in the crew had Ro stayed. Of course, Deep Space 9 (and Voyager to an extend, but let's not speak of that) eventually embraced this idea that hey, not everyone in Starfleet would be automatically comfy in this culture, but the chance was there to at least add a little roughness to things.

ScumLord

pixelburp wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting there needed to be some contrived romantic triangle, betrayals or anything, but the main cast had Worf and Data, two characters openly disconnected from Federation norms yet the show rarely worked with that material; when it did you got those slightly weird Data-centric episodes about a hitherto unseen friend falling in love with him.

Yeah, TV was just a bit like that back then. It makes it easy to pick up any TV show.

I just finished 'Ensign Ro', having started Season 5 and my takeaway was of a missed opportunity for a really interesting dynamic in the crew had Ro stayed. Of course, Deep Space 9 (and Voyager to an extend, but let's not speak of that) eventually embraced this idea that hey, not everyone in Starfleet would be automatically comfy in this culture, but the chance was there to at least add a little roughness to things.

Worf excelled on DS9, would hate to see data go the way of the Doc on voyager. Data always remained unhuman, he was pretty unique. The doc on voyager just seems to be human, it's just nobody including himself realised it.

Worf and O'Brien excelled so much in DS9 over TNG.

Quandary

Deleted User wrote: »

Worf and O'Brien excelled so much in DS9 over TNG.

O Brien was very much a peripheral character in TNG and he really flourished in DS9. Very enjoyable character to watch.

pixelburp

Up to Season 5, 'Violations' to be exact, and blergh, it's a Troi-centric episode. Maybe it's heresy to the stalwarts of these parts, but she's a flimsy, tepid character, and her stories have almost always been pretty terrible. It's often the few times I'm tempted to skip to the next episode.

_Kaiser_

pixelburp wrote: »

Up to Season 5, 'Violations' to be exact, and blergh, it's a Troi-centric episode. Maybe it's heresy to the stalwarts of these parts, but she's a flimsy, tepid character, and her stories have almost always been pretty terrible. It's often the few times I'm tempted to skip to the next episode.

I'd tend to agree except for that episode where she wakes up on a Romulan Warbird. That was pretty cool - a big part of which was the back and forth between her and the ship's captain.

She also comes off fairly well in the second half of "Disaster" when she actually starts taking command.

pixelburp

So nearly done with Season 5, and have adopted a policy that if it involves Troi or a child at the heart of the story, I skip through the episode

Just watching 'Inner Light' now & I know the episode by repute, and it is making that itching sense of missing serialisation return. It's weird watching a show like this with modern eyes because there have been numerous episodes where events within could have been the arc for another show's entire season, particularly given the major emotional impacts that might occur, yet Next Gen is content to potter onwards without a backwards glance no matter the physical or psychological cost.

Picard becomes a Borg? Worf disabled from the waist down? Constant takeovers of your body by an alien? Belay that emotion ensign, we have a new star cluster to chart. The latter trope is particularly funny, because in 'Power Play' O'Brien acted positively cruel and aggressive towards his own wife & child yet it's forgotten so quickly it just rings hollow. A minor quibble in an episode I otherwise really enjoyed I might quickly add.

pixelburp wrote: »

[...]
I just finished 'Ensign Ro', having started Season 5 and my takeaway was of a missed opportunity for a really interesting dynamic in the crew had Ro stayed. Of course, Deep Space 9 (and Voyager to an extend, but let's not speak of that) eventually embraced this idea that hey, not everyone in Starfleet would be automatically comfy in this culture, but the chance was there to at least add a little roughness to things.

I spoke way too soon on that count - I'm surprised how often Ro has been popping up since her debut. She's definitely a good element of chaos among the crew. Wonder why she never transferred to DS9 or the films, but that's probably getting into spoiler territory

When I was a kid and TNG was first out, I loved it. Now, as an adult, I realize just how bad a lot of it actually is. I definitely wouldn't be doing a similar runthrough with this like I did with DS9 - instead just watching the best episodes and skipping all the others.

TheIrishGrover

pixelburp wrote: »

..... I spoke way too soon on that count - I'm surprised how often Ro has been popping up since her debut. She's definitely a good element of chaos among the crew. Wonder why she never transferred to DS9 or the films, but that's probably getting into spoiler territory

Apparently she was specifically created to inject a bit of spice/conflict into the crew.Originally the plan was for her to migrate to DS9 also (Why she was made Bajoran). But the actor didn't want to sign up it seems. Her movie career had just started.

I liked the character. Thought she injected some needed spunk into the show (Oh grow up, before you start )

As you and others have said, the episodic nature of the show is now quite jarring and dated. You know that if something major happened on DS9 you bet your bottom dollar is was gonna bite them in the ass in a few episodes/years. But on TNG it was usually never mentioned again. I always remember when they did mention something that had happened previously (Picard's involvement in Klingon affairs, when they would namedrop Tasha or Locutis etc) it always brought a little smile to the face.

pixelburp

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Apparently she was specifically created to inject a bit of spice/conflict into the crew.Originally the plan was for her to migrate to DS9 also (Why she was made Bajoran). But the actor didn't want to sign up it seems. Her movie career had just started.

I liked the character. Thought she injected some needed spunk into the show (Oh grow up, before you start )

Ah ok, that's interesting. I did do a quick Google of her after I read your post (she was Admiral Cain in Battlestar Galactica - now I know where I'd seen her before!), and supposedly Kira from DS9 was the replacement for Ro; that makes sense as they do feel kinda similar in demeanour and attitude in many respects.

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

As you and others have said, the episodic nature of the show is now quite jarring and dated. You know that if something major happened on DS9 you bet your bottom dollar is was gonna bite them in the ass in a few episodes/years. But on TNG it was usually never mentioned again. I always remember when they did mention something that had happened previously (Picard's involvement in Klingon affairs, when they would namedrop Tasha or Locutis etc) it always brought a little smile to the face.

I wonder if the nature of TV changing is part of the change: I mean back in the 80s, unless you had a VHS - and they weren't that ubiquitous - you either tuned in at the time to catch Next Gen or you missed it. I could see Networks reluctant to fill their shows with season-long arcs for fear of alienating what was then a precariously captive audience. Without DVD rentals, Netflix or even an internet forum to keep track of your favourite show you'd soon lose track.

Pat Dunne

pixelburp wrote: »

I mean back in the 80s, unless you had a VHS - and they weren't that ubiquitous - you either tuned in at the time to catch

In all fairness, the vast majority of homes had a VCR of some description back in the day. Knowing how to set the timer was the real trick.

MrJones1973

It's been awhile since I watched the next penetration .;) Its biggest selling point was always Patrick Stewart. Followed by riker and worf
It resurrected star trek as a TV franchise and for that I'm eternally grateful.
Picard was way more interesting than the captains that followed. Sisko was OTT. Janeway was shrill and boring. Enterprise dude Archer was all over the place and way too American. Too corny.

Where it suffered is not having a novelistic approach (as noted )and for lack of real conflict among the crew . However,it has to be judged by the TV of the 1980s and the fact that Roddenberry banned conflict. He was not around for DS9
I also would have liked to see Picard get laid a bit more. I think he managed it only about twice in seven years !

Jan_de_Bakker

I did a next gen. runthrough about 10 years ago when I got the DVDs,
now I might watch them again (most - I may skip some bollix episodes about Troi and her mother - or kids) on Netflix - They are the same HD source as the bluRays yes ?

Cos the DVDs always looked a bit dodgy..

pixelburp

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

I did a next gen. runthrough about 10 years ago when I got the DVDs,
now I might watch them again (most - I may skip some bollix episodes about Troi and her mother - or kids) on Netflix - They are the same HD source as the bluRays yes ?

Cos the DVDs always looked a bit dodgy..

AFAIK yes, the Netflix version is the blu-ray version with the remastered footage & SFX.

Related note: apparently that remaster cost $20 million to produce, and the underperformance of sales is quoted as the reason we're unlikely to get a similar DS9 / Voyager remaster .

I personally don't understand the whole remastering things with Star Trek & whatnot. These are very much of their times shows. You can remaster it all you want and make it shiny, but you can't take the late 80s/early 90s out of it.

pixelburp

Deleted User wrote: »

I personally don't understand the whole remastering things with Star Trek & whatnot. These are very much of their times shows. You can remaster it all you want and make it shiny, but you can't take the late 80s/early 90s out of it.

I think it's a double-edged sword: the new FX really add some polish & with the remastered picture the colours and depth really pop. The era doesn't feel that obvious when the picture is as crisp as the Next Gen remaster.

On the other hand, high definition tends to emphasise any shoddiness in the sets & props of these remastered productions; stuff that originally wouldn't have come up on SD televisions & so the production team didn't really care. So the use of office carpet is really obvious now

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

I think it's a double-edged sword: the new FX really add some polish & with the remastered picture the colours and depth really pop. The era doesn't feel that obvious when the picture is as crisp as the Next Gen remaster.

On the other hand, high definition tends to emphasise any shoddiness in the sets & props of these remastered productions; stuff that originally wouldn't have come up on SD televisions & so the production team didn't really care. So the use of office carpet is really obvious now

That was absolutely the case with the first season of TNG. I think I mentioned previously, but you could really see how shoddy the Klingon makeup was at that point - I'm about 99% certain you could see where Worf ends and where Dorn begins - right at the neckline.

Goodshape

Deleted User wrote: »

I personally don't understand the whole remastering things with Star Trek & whatnot. These are very much of their times shows. You can remaster it all you want and make it shiny, but you can't take the late 80s/early 90s out of it.

Wouldn't want to lose the 80s/90s look and feel of it. They're of their time, as you say.

But the TNG remaster was well handled I think. Any effects that were redone were redone faithfully. It's just a case of a sharper image, more even colours, better sound, etc.

The TOS remasters – while I do like them – actually went ahead and updated the special effects, added in new backdrops, generally tarted things up a bit. Not quite as bad as Star Wars "special" editions but along the same lines. And they did a pretty good job in fairness, but I'd probably prefer if they kept the original effects. Maybe that wasn't even possible with the way these things were originally added.


Nothing wrong with the TNG remaster though. They're fantastic.

Inviere

Goodshape wrote: »

The TOS remasters – while I do like them – actually went ahead and updated the special effects, added in new backdrops, generally tarted things up a bit. Not quite as bad as Star Wars "special" editions but along the same lines. And they did a pretty good job in fairness, but I'd probably prefer if they kept the original effects. Maybe that wasn't even possible with the way these things were originally added.


Nothing wrong with the TNG remaster though. They're fantastic.

Going from memory, I think the TOS blu-ray remasters allowed you to select the new effects, of the old ones.

Remasters all the way though, why view them in appaling 80's/90's resolution, when the master copies themselves have a far, far high resolution? Yes it can highlight some imperfections, but if done correctly, it's the only way to watch them - as they were intended really.

Evade

One thing the ST remasters got right was not trying to change the aspect ratio from 4:3 to 16:9.

Jan_de_Bakker

pixelburp wrote: »

AFAIK yes, the Netflix version is the blu-ray version with the remastered footage & SFX.

Related note: apparently that remaster cost $20 million to produce, and the underperformance of sales is quoted as the reason we're unlikely to get a similar DS9 / Voyager remaster .

The under performance in sales is probably more due to physical media dying and the rise of the cloud then anything - pity if this is the reason DS9 won't get the same treatment.
Actually amazon has TNG BluRay for €68 - im tempted !
https://www.amazon.es/Star-Trek-Generation-Complete-Edizione/dp/B00NQXC2YU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489001925&sr=8-1&keywords=star+trek+the+next+generation+blu+ray

Goodshape wrote: »

Wouldn't want to lose the 80s/90s look and feel of it. They're of their time, as you say.

But the TNG remaster was well handled I think. Any effects that were redone were redone faithfully. It's just a case of a sharper image, more even colours, better sound, etc.

The TOS remasters – while I do like them – actually went ahead and updated the special effects, added in new backdrops, generally tarted things up a bit. Not quite as bad as Star Wars "special" editions but along the same lines. And they did a pretty good job in fairness, but I'd probably prefer if they kept the original effects. Maybe that wasn't even possible with the way these things were originally added.


Nothing wrong with the TNG remaster though. They're fantastic.

I loved the TOS remasters , especially the scenes of the enterprise orbiting planets !

Looked fantastic.

donspeekinglesh

I'm currently about halfway through watching them all again. (The joys of a newborn who likes to stay awake all night!)

The amount of set reuse is so obvious. Never noticed it before.

Bacchus

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

I'm currently about halfway through watching them all again. (The joys of a newborn who likes to stay awake all night!)

The amount of set reuse is so obvious. Never noticed it before.

Ha! My little one saw me through 2 seasons of DS9 and a backlog of movies I'd been meaning to get round to watching

Jan_de_Bakker

Last night I watched 1x24 - Conspiracy - It's actually a great episode .
I really liked the way the planet (Dytallix Picard had a secret meeting with some starfleet heads was orbitting a Red Giant star - Mira https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mira.

When Data was going through the data on the system he was saying the planet is in a tidally locked orbit around Mira - one side always facing the star, and there was 5 other planets in the system.
Reminded me of Trappist and the fact that lots of planets orbit red giants in tidally locked orbits - and closeby.

You see lads Star Trek is true !!

So in this episode at the end, it was revealed that Remmick was sending a homing beacon to an unexplored part of the galaxy - setting
the seeds for a future threat - never kicked off though.


Then I watched 2x12 The Royale - always liked this episode.

and yeah regarding the HD, it's great but my God you can really see the makeup and the use of doubles ... jesus ... they never thought of future HD back then !!

So far DS9 is the only series I watched as it was intended - watching each episode. However what I found myself doing with the likes of TNG, Voyager, & Enterprise is looking up what the best episodes are and watching those by themselves.

This is why I love Netflix - the fact that we have the option of doing just that!

Evade

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

So in this episode at the end, it was revealed that Remmick was sending a homing beacon to an unexplored part of the galaxy - setting
the seeds for a future threat - never kicked off though.

I think it was supposed to be a signal to what became the borg.

degrassinoel

I thought that was a dead end story too, it could have been done really well if they went on with it though - thinking of the 1982 classic remake, The Thing

Goodshape

Evade wrote: »

I think it was supposed to be a signal to what became the borg.

Is that your own head-canon or is there a source for that?

I guess it's not bad for head-canon, although those little slugs look nothing at all like Borg tech (also they retconned the sending of the Borg signal into an episode of Enterprise, afair).

I think the story arc was just dropped tbh. Was a cool episode and intriguing idea, but feels out of place when compared with what the show became after season two.

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

Is that your own head-canon or is there a source for that?

I read it somewhere years ago but I can't find any source for it now. The borg were originally supposed to be an insect hive, but were changed to what we know now for budgetary reasons (source), so that's probably where the speculation comes from.

pixelburp

Yeah, I always got the impression it was an arc that was either forgotten or just dropped. It had good potential from a 'Body Snatchers' storytelling point of view. I'm going to just presume the homeworld of the slugs was gone by the time the signal reached its destination; maybe it was wiped out by the Borg

There were quite a few storylines that got dropped-- like the Borg babies.

Goodshape

[Deleted User] wrote: »

There were quite a few storylines that got dropped-- like the Borg babies.

I've head-canon for the Borg babies though, which covers a few other things too.

In that first episode, Q Who, the Borg were destructive but didn't care for the life forms – they were only interested in assimilating technology. Locutus aside, I don't think we see an actual assimilation take place (double injection in the neck) until First Contact, so we might assume they had not yet developed that technology in Q Who or BoBW. At that time, they incubated their young.

Something changed after meeting the humans (perhaps coincidentally) and they realised the benefits of assimilating life forms. Hence, no more Borg babies, suddenly we see Borg from different original species (from First Contact onwards), and also could explain the change in appearance from smooth white skin to a dirtier grey blotchy complexion.