Why are men dropping out of society? - mod note in 1st post

Wibbs

whaleofaday wrote: »

It just seems that MGTOW comes across as being followed by blokes with a victim mentality

+1. For me it's a near perfect mirror to the extreme tumblr feminist types they so despise. Victimhood all over the place.

El_Duderino 09

whaleofaday wrote:

Lumping all women into some kind of evil homogeneous mass is a danger in itself - you stop seeing women as individuals each with unique personalities, passions, beliefs, morals etc and then you stop seeing their humanity. ... It just seems that MGTOW comes across as being followed by blokes with a victim mentality.

I keep seeing MGTOW and PUA being lumped together. I wonder if that's part of the problem. PUA is very much about selecting women for attractiveness and using the other person to stroke the PUA's ego. If these fellas are selecting women based on one single characteristic and then find out that the woman is attractive and also an unbearable wench. Their problem is with selecting women without considering personality or compatibility.

Why not just focus on meeting women they like ratter than the PUA approach. Fellas who are genuinely taken in by that stuff are completely missing the point of intimacy, so it's not surprising they feel cheated because they don't have a decent partner.

SarahMollie

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I keep seeing MGTOW and PUA being lumped together. I wonder if that's part of the problem. PUA is very much about selecting women for attractiveness and using the other person to stroke the PUA's ego. If these fellas are selecting women based on one single characteristic and then find out that the woman is attractive and also an unbeatable wench. Their problem is with selecting women without considering personality or compatibility.

Why not just focus on meeting women they like ratter than the PUA approach. Fellas who are genuinely taken in by that stuff are completely missing the point of intimacy, so it's not surprising they feel cheated because they don't have a decent partner.

I think this is because both MGTOW and PUA both dehumanise women, albeit in different ways.

IMO, PUA is largely about exploiting a woman's insecurities so she can be manipulated into being with a man. Its exploitative and encourages (often vulnerable) men to view women like objects instead of individuals. Theres also a sense of entitlement that it breads, which is deeply unhealthy.

MGTOW, from what I know of it also fails to see women as individuals, but as one hive mind that are out to get them, aka the enemy.

Both discourage normal social interactions and encourage warped thinking, so thats why people draw parallels between the two, from what I can see.

Also, one thing I've noticed on this thread is that no one has an issue when a man pops in and says that he thinks relationships are not for him and he intends to go quietly about his business and lead a quiet, happy life. Where MGTOW changes that however, is the addition of vitriolic rhetoric, making women sound like objects rather than people and also encouraging a sense of misplaced victim-hood in men who haven't had things go their way whether rightly or wrongly.

Walter H Price

I think the MGTOW thing is a bit extreme to be honest.

But i do get the idea that the deck is stacked aginst lads in many circumstances.

The issue of consent is huge like realisticly if your both hammered end up sleeping together if a girl accuses you of rape your finished it really is guilty until proven innocent

There is major issues around inequality in divorce regards father rights and the fact that the man can effectively loose everything , home , kids half his salary seems grossly unfair.

with college and education , you have to test people some way and it just happens that girls for the most part are better at the learning by rote stuff , also teenage boys are slaves to some pretty powerful hormones during puberty which dosn't help given that's when the big exams are , but then again men still excel at sports and physical activities , men's sports being far more physical and entertaining then womens and male sports professionals far out earn their female counterparts.

I think there's allot of factors contributing to the rise in mental health issues , the way we are living as a society is very unnatural , we have to surpress or feel guilty about allot of our natural instinct's and desires but i don't think this one issue is the major driving force

whaleofaday

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Why not just focus on meeting women they like ratter than the PUA approach. Fellas who are genuinely taken in by that stuff are completely missing the point of intimacy, so it's not surprising they feel cheated because they don't have a decent partner.

Yes! I do think that self awareness comes with maturity, so that (hopefully) as we get older and chalk up more life experience we realise *our* part in past relationship woes. Then we have the opportunity to work on our own issues so we stop dragging them with us when we meet potential partners.

SarahMollie wrote: »

I think this is because both MGTOW and PUA both dehumanise women, albeit in different ways.


Both discourage normal social interactions and encourage warped thinking, so thats why people draw parallels between the two, from what I can see.

Where MGTOW changes that however, is the addition of vitriolic rhetoric, making women sound like objects rather than people and also encouraging a sense of misplaced victim-hood in men who haven't had things go their way whether rightly or wrongly.

I agree with this, totally. Past hurts get directed outwards onto other people to the point where they become the enemy.

Potatoeman

There have always been men that didn't settle down so it's nothing new. It does seem to be a very angry group but like feminism it's the angryist and loudest you hear the most about. There seems to be two types, young guys angry they are not having sex when they see others guys getting far more and older divorced men that have been screwed in court.

Of the first, they really need to have a hard look at themselves and work on themselves. There is some truth in what they say. I struggled in my early to mid twenties and it made me work on myself but it also made me put myself first. I'm in my midthirties now and seeing more women in their twenties than my own age. Women in their early to mid twenties do seem to go more for players and older guys but the result seems to be that less guys their age are ready to settledown when they hit thirty.

These guys opting out is bad for women and even though women see their attitude and think it's a good thing that they are opting out, it's bad for them in the long run. Men on the other hand see it as less competition so couldn't really give a toss.

Mr Arrior

I've always said I'm the type of guy that women will want in their 30's as opposed to their 20's.

Colser

Mr Arrior wrote:

I've always said I'm the type of guy that women will want in their 30's as opposed to their 20's.

Very possible..I think looks play a big part when you're in your 20s but later on in life much less so imo.Initial attraction is great but when you're older it becomes apparent that attraction can come after getting to know someone and sometimes actually catches you out and totally surprises you.

That said there are some characteristics that we always look for that are our own "must haves" in a potential partner but I can honestly say that I see huge potential now in types that I would have instantly written off when I was young...

So anyway where ARE all the nice men ðŸ˜

Rory28

MGTOW is a bit extreme but I totally get why they would. As a gay guy I get to watch my friends try and amble their way up to girls and try to "chat them up". Its car crash viewing for the most part and they usually never get anywhere beyond an awkward hello followed by being laughed back to us. One of them is off asking women out full stop. He uses escort sites and seems happy as a result.

These guys would be your average looking guys too. no elephant men in the group. Indeed if they swang my way they would be fine for attention but to the women they ask out they must seem repulsive from the reactions they receive. We are all in or around 30 so its not a things will get better for them down the road.

I feel sorry for them. Loneliness is the worst.

Mr Arrior

Colser wrote:

Very possible..I think looks play a big part when you're in your 20s but later on in life much less so imo.Initial attraction is great but when you're older it becomes apparent that attraction can come after getting to know someone and sometimes actually catches you out and totally surprises you.

I didn't mean I wasn't good looking, moreso that I was quiet and caring and take my time to get to know a woman

Mr Arrior

Rory28 wrote:

I feel sorry for them. Loneliness is the worst.

This, its the loneliness that kills ya.

kunst nugget

Wibbs wrote: »

+1. For me it's a near perfect mirror to the extreme tumblr feminist types they so despise. Victimhood all over the place.

This exchange really illustrates the victimhood of it all imo…

Ted111 wrote: »

maregal that sounds a bit weak and self-pitying. I'm not trying to be offensive. You or anyone else who thinks like that needs to develop a stronger mind set.

maregal wrote: »

"Man up and grow some balls". Great advice.

silverharp

Colser wrote: »

Very possible..I think looks play a big part when you're in your 20s but later on in life much less so imo.Initial attraction is great but when you're older it becomes apparent that attraction can come after getting to know someone and sometimes actually catches you out and totally surprises you.

That said there are some characteristics that we always look for that are our own "must haves" in a potential partner but I can honestly say that I see huge potential now in types that I would have instantly written off when I was young...

So anyway where ARE all the nice men ðŸ˜

nabbed by the clever girls saw the potential where you didn't

Zubeneschamali

Rory28 wrote: »

I get to watch my friends try and amble their way up to girls and try to "chat them up". Its car crash viewing

This is a terrible way to meet women.

Rory28

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

This is a terrible way to meet women.

so whats a good way?

Colser

Mr Arrior wrote:

I didn't mean I wasn't good looking, moreso that I was quiet and caring and take my time to get to know a woman

Sorry..I didn't mean it like that..

Potatoeman

Rory28 wrote: »

MGTOW is a bit extreme but I totally get why they would. As a gay guy I get to watch my friends try and amble their way up to girls and try to "chat them up". Its car crash viewing for the most part and they usually never get anywhere beyond an awkward hello followed by being laughed back to us. One of them is off asking women out full stop. He uses escort sites and seems happy as a result.

These guys would be your average looking guys too. no elephant men in the group. Indeed if they swang my way they would be fine for attention but to the women they ask out they must seem repulsive from the reactions they receive. We are all in or around 30 so its not a things will get better for them down the road.

I feel sorry for them. Loneliness is the worst.

It's one of those things where guys that are really good at it are doing it all the time. So women that select these guys have far more competition themselves. At the same time an 'awkward hello', what do they expect. At least crack a joke or something.

Zubeneschamali

Rory28 wrote: »

so whats a good way?

Join something where men and women interact somehow other than as an alcohol-fuelled meat-market in a fishbowl.

Sport, hobbies, clubs, events. Even work is better than a Gaeltacht Céile scene with a lad leaving the pack of lads to try a line on a girl in a pack of girls while their mates look on.

Rory28

Potatoeman wrote: »

It's one of those things where guys that are really good at it are doing it all the time. So women that select these guys have far more competition themselves. At the same time an 'awkward hello', what do they expect. At least crack a joke or something.

Well they are awkward lads. I hope people are seeing the quotation marks on the "chatting up" part there. its short hand for introducing themselves and trying to have a conversation not stupid one liners.

Potatoeman

Rory28 wrote: »

Well they are awkward lads. I hope people are seeing the quotation marks on the "chatting up" part there. its short hand for introducing themselves and trying to have a conversation not stupid one liners.

Not stupid one lines but more than an awkward hello.

Mr Arrior

Colser wrote:

Sorry..I didn't mean it like that..

No your fine

maregal

A guy at work was telling us about a date he went on with a girl recently and how he paid for dinner. I laughed at him for being a sucker. All because society tells him to pay due to some outdated idea of chivalry At the end of the night, he walked her home to her place, leaned in for the kiss but only got a hug. Absolute cringefest. She didn't reply to any of his calls or messages for a week afterwards so he did some digging. Turns out she already has a "friend with benefits" who visits her home when she gets in the mood. No need for him to buy dinner. She has plenty of willing betas to do that.

You can't deny nature. The beta provides the girl with material goods while the alpha satisfies her sexually and passes on his genes. Pic related.

Wibbs

The world is full of saps. In other news, water is wet. To extrapolate from saps to the general population is hardly representative of the general population. I certainly know more than one woman who has been a sap over a boyfriend, often for years and I can tell you none were "alpha" types. Maybe one, who was a Bad Boy(™), the rest were just wasters.

Carlos Orange

eviltwin wrote: »

Love this, that's exactly the right mentality

Sounds kinda PUAlike. Maybe it is just the skill bit.

eeguy

Exactly.

If you do in with the mind set of "This girls hot and all i want is the shift or the ride" you'll get nowhere, unless that's what she's after too.

If you approach someone just looking for the craic, then it's much easier. You're more inclined to approach women who look intelligent and interesting rather than "sexy" girls, who've probably spent the night fending of lads looking for one thing only.

If it goes well you get a number, then you go from there.

RE paying for stuff: I've gone on multiple dates with 3 women over the last 2 months and each offered to split the bills and pay their shares.

eeguy

psinno wrote: »

Sounds kinda PUAlike. Maybe it is just the skill bit.

With PUA the goal is the PU.

There's no goal here. If I like her and the feeling is mutual then we may swap numbers. If not there's no pressure. She may be the only girl I talk to that night or one of a half dozen.

Jut two people having a chat.

Problem with most men is there's pressure when they're "on the pull" to get a girl into bed at all cost, and you're deemed a failure or the night is a failure when it doesn't happen.

But of course it's not you, it's the world, women and society at fault. But definitely not you.

Colser

eeguy wrote:

Problem with most men is there's pressure when they're "on the pull" to get a girl into bed at all cost, and you're deemed a failure or the night is a failure when it doesn't happen.

And we can spot it a mile off...nothing worse than a pua and nothing better than someone just chatting you up at the bar for a laugh..there's a massive difference.

bee06

Wibbs wrote: »

The world is full of saps. In other news, water is wet. To extrapolate from saps to the general population is hardly representative of the general population. I certainly know more than one woman who has been a sap over a boyfriend, often for years and I can tell you none were "alpha" types. Maybe one, who was a Bad Boy(™), the rest were just wasters.

Yep, there's plenty of crappy people out there with no morals who are happy to take advantage of other people.

eeguy

Colser wrote: »

And we can spot it a mile off...nothing worse than a pua and nothing better than someone just chatting you up at the bar for a laugh..there's a massive difference.

Yep, clear difference between two people having a normal conversation and one where the lad is nodding his head, asking the usual open ended questions and obviously thinking to himself "Another 5 mins of talking sh*te then I'll lunge in for the shift".

maregal

This "just be yourself" meme really needs to die along with the "girls go for funny guys" one.
John Candy is one of my favourite comedians of all time. But would he have gotten any action in a nightclub? No, cos he was a fat slob.