Ear to the ground

Say my name

Eathrin wrote: »

Whoops I meant non-dairy of course. I use Pure - Sunflower spread. Lots of other spreads I never really considered much before too can be used for various applications. Humous, vegan pesto, relishes etc.

Ah fair dues.
I've no problem with anyone choosing any diet for themselves but when someone else dictates or tries to vilify you for your own choice. That I've a problem with from both sides.
I'm a dairy farmer. I've grown up on one and have no qualms about eating dairy or meat produce. I know the full story about what I produce. Personally dread the day if it ever happened that there were never any goats, sheep, pigs, cows, chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys ever on farms again. It would be one lonely place filled with heartless people. That would be my take on it. Seems strange probably to a vegan and non farmer but that's how I get my kicks caring for my few auld cows till they will meet their maker (by a human hand) but not to be wasted but cherished.

Ps I think I'd lay off the sunflower oil and go more for Olive oil if you can in products. Try out some algae products or even (not true vegan but sure you won't be shot) krill oil.

Dakota Dan

Eathrin wrote: »

I've done research, I say probably as it's difficult to get reliable estimates for these things. Some popular reports put animal agriculture at 51% of greenhouse gas contribution. Not to mention rainforest destruction. Even if it was half that, would you not agree that it is still a shockingly large contributor to a global problem? Obviously, as another enormous contributor, we should all be pushing for green energy production i.e. windfarms and solar panels on all roofs etc.

That's a good question. Some people certainly do grow their own vegetables without animal fertiliser. There is such a thing as green manure. This guy does it commercially too for example http://www.tolhurstorganic.co.uk/
Are animals not after all just aggregators of their inputs. Most of the energy in their food is used up between the time it enters the mouth and exits the other side if them.
This is honestly a great question and one I hadn't thought about a whole lot before, so thank you. It would be really interesting to see more research done in this area. From history, farmers in India, China and Greece appear to have used green manures on large scale farms.



I don't think they do. But would you bash people for trying to make ethical choices if they can't live their lives 100% ethically? We should try to live our lives as ethically as possible in all areas. Some people might say it would be completely impractical to go without a mobile phone for example, even knowing it was assembled by some poor soul far far away. We should all aim to reduce our unethical behaviour as much as practicable right? Vegans say that eating meat and animal excretions is unnecessary, because it isn't.




I'm actually only recently vegan so I'm still learning new meals everyday. It's certainly helped me to think about my nutrition, which I never did before, but I'm not sure that's the case for most people!

I do take a b12 and Vitamin D supplement, though I get a decent amount of that from the fortified milk.

So I might for example be eating:

Breakfast: Porridge with almond milk (Sultanas and pumpkin seeds if I have the time)
or
Toast with a dairy based spread, maybe a soy based yoghurt

Lunch: I've been making baguettes filled with humous, chickpeas, roasted pepper and spinach. Really nice.
or
Falafel sandwiches are also really nice.
also
vegan protein bars when I exercise, fruit, dairy free yoghurt, I'm starting to enjoy eating certain nuts, coconut based smoothies etc.

Dinner:
One dish I'm really good at now is a Spinach, chickpea and sweet potato curry. I've made this for loads of family and friends who all love it. You should try it if you haven't before! http://thevegan8.com/2016/09/21/sweet-potato-chickpea-and-spinach-coconut-curry/
or
I also make vegan burgers
or
Most dry pastas are egg free so there's loads you can do with that.
or
Loads of good Indian takeaway food is vegan

This all just off the top of my head. Of course this isn't all I eat...

I don't have my meals all planned out, no, but then, I never did in the past. It's not like meat is some sort of magical multivitamin or something that means you don't need to consider your diet at all. I should plan better, but so should everyone else. I do have a reasonable idea now of my nutritional needs and I do keep an eye on what type of foods I need to be consuming to meet those needs.

I wouldn't be into eating either of those things now, sorry to disappoint
Honestly though, it's opened my eyes up to how much else is on the shelves at the supermarket.




Nope, you could try that out and report back to me if you like though



I have some spirulina in the press but I've never actually tried it. Maybe someday.



We all do things that make us all to blame. It's about taking reductionist measures, wherever possible, to reverse the damage done. It would be ignorant to point the finger at any one particular group of people.

You might want to do a bit more research 51% is a downright lie which I presume you got from a peta website.

https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/meat-environment/

The real figure is around 14.5%.

Not many rainforests in Ireland, maybe you should keep your argument to the country you are in.

patsy_mccabe

Have to admit our local pizzeria does a great vegetarian pizza. It's not that I don't like meat on a pizza. Its more that the quality of the meat is always questionable.

Waffletraktor

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Not many rainforests in Ireland, maybe you should keep your argument to the country you are in.

Ye but the 12 months of summer diet requires most of their food to be flown in

wrangler

A lot of people are ignoring climate change and sticking their head in the sand.
It will be to our detriment.
We used to outwinter cattle here when I was growing up and maybe make 10 -12000 bales hay,
I used to think I only imagined weather was better and really we just worked harder.
However on reading up on soils in westmeath lately the information claimed that rainfall in the 1960s was 700mm/year
It's now near 1200/yr
So in 50 years we went from being easy to make hay to more difficult, but easy to make silage and then to where we are today.
''A grand little country where you can grow anything and harvest nothing''

I says

Climate change,global warming call it what you like weather patterns have and will always change regardless of what we do.
Channel 4 did a documentary 10/12 yrs ago called the great climate change swindle or words to that effect.One of the founding members of green peace spoke on it he left after it had achieved its aims against nuclear power and making of bombs.The needed something new it became the weather patterns.
Also a scientist claimed it helped them get funding,if you said you needed financial aid to study rain patterns you would get nothing unless you added the words due to global warming you would get it a very interesting documentary it really would open you’re eyes to the gravy train funding by climate change and so on.

ganmo

Dakota Dan wrote: »

You might want to do a bit more research 51% is a downright lie which I presume you got from a peta website.

https://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/meat-environment/

The real figure is around 14.5%.

Not many rainforests in Ireland, maybe you should keep your argument to the country you are in.

Ya the 51% figure is way off for animal agriculture.

Ireland for agriculture overall is about 20%
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Greenhouse_gas_emissions,_by_country,_2012.png

patsy_mccabe

wrangler wrote: »

A lot of people are ignoring climate change and sticking their head in the sand.
It will be to our detriment.
We used to outwinter cattle here when I was growing up and maybe make 10 -12000 bales hay,
I used to think I only imagined weather was better and really we just worked harder.
However on reading up on soils in westmeath lately the information claimed that rainfall in the 1960s was 700mm/year
It's now near 1200/yr
So in 50 years we went from being easy to make hay to more difficult, but easy to make silage and then to where we are today.
''A grand little country where you can grow anything and harvest nothing''

Wrangler, you can download the historical weather data from the Met Eireann website;
http://www.met.ie/climate-request/


Official rainfall for Westmeath;
I downloaded this monthly data from the Glasson Station. The total values in mm for the year, I added myself.

wrangler

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Wrangler, you can download the historical weather data from the Met Eireann website;
http://www.met.ie/climate-request/


Official rainfall for Westmeath;
I downloaded this monthly data from the Glasson Station. The total values in mm for the year, I added myself.

So we must have just worked harder, massey 135, welger baler.......I'd puke now at the thought of 10000 bales hay

Say my name

wrangler wrote: »

A lot of people are ignoring climate change and sticking their head in the sand.
It will be to our detriment.
We used to outwinter cattle here when I was growing up and maybe make 10 -12000 bales hay,
I used to think I only imagined weather was better and really we just worked harder.
However on reading up on soils in westmeath lately the information claimed that rainfall in the 1960s was 700mm/year
It's now near 1200/yr
So in 50 years we went from being easy to make hay to more difficult, but easy to make silage and then to where we are today.
''A grand little country where you can grow anything and harvest nothing''

I'd have to look at those records myself to verify. Met eireann won't go back that far on their website unfortunately.
It sounds like that 700mm might have been a bit of a freak la Nina gradually coming into an el Nino year.
If you were to look at the records for mullingar for the last 3 years you would say the trend in rainfall is a downward one.
http://www.met.ie/climate/monthly-data.asp?Num=875
But we know better than trends. It's not going to continue going down obviously.
To the lay people in the broadsheets and national media climate change gets bandied about as the cause of every little change in weather.
Of course climate changes. According to some with the Sun cycles atm we're actually entering into the start of a little ice age. But maybe human influence is altering the effects that would happen otherwise.
We should of course be doing our bit on renewable energies and in an ideal world carbon capture and sequestration by farmers will be rewarded.
But climate change should not become a cash cow for unscrupulous individuals or companies whose sole aim is to profit from it. An example I was looking at a biochar retort for sale in Ireland and the individuals are looking 4.5k for the retort that to my mind would cost less than 1k to make. But it seems an excessive amount of profiteering just because they got the sole brand name from an Australian company first in this country even though the plans were made open source.

patsy_mccabe

Say my name wrote: »

I'd have to look at those records myself to verify. Met eireann won't go back that far on their website unfortunately.
........

They do, see my link above.

Say my name

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

They do, see my link above.

I tried with my phone but the stupid phone hasn't got the memory.
Will try with the tablet later.
Thanks.

Dakota Dan

Hmmm looks like our vegan friend left the building, ah well I suppose that's what happens when you squash lies with facts.

patsy_mccabe

I had a closer look at the Met Eireann historical data myself. Here's a graph of the historical data for the total annual rainfall at Shannon Airport.
No doubt about it, rainfall is increasing. I added the trend line. Data is from 1946 to 2016, 70 years of data.

Eathrin

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Hmmm looks like our vegan friend left the building, ah well I suppose that's what happens when you squash lies with facts.

What facts? I don't believe there's a single fact you can provide that shows that veganism is wrong or that consuming animal products is in anyway necessary.

Animal agriculture is bad for the environment. That's a fact.
Eating meat is bad for your health. That's a fact.
Sentient beings do not want to die. That's a fact.
We do not need animal products to survive. That's a fact.
A vegan diet is cheaper than a non-vegan one. That's a fact.

The reality is, people like the taste of meat, people like the convenience of consuming animal products and people do not like change. None of these things make something morally justifiable.

ganmo

Eathrin wrote: »

What facts? I don't believe there's a single fact you can provide that shows that veganism is wrong or that consuming animal products is in anyway necessary.

Animal agriculture is bad for the environment. That's a fact.
Eating meat is bad for your health. That's a fact.
Sentient beings do not want to die. That's a fact.
We do not need animal products to survive. That's a fact.
A vegan diet is cheaper than a non-vegan one. That's a fact.

The reality is, people like the taste of meat, people like the convenience of consuming animal products and people do not like change. None of these things make something morally justifiable.

But it's nowhere near as bad as you stated. Closer to half of what you said was the figure for animal agri is the total agri co2 emissions

farmerwifelet

im anaemic and so is my son - we need to eat red meat.

Some people can be healthy as vegans but some like me need the meat.

Some people like the taste of meat and some people don't like to eat meat for ethical reasons. I respect your decision to be vegan please respect my decision to eat red meat.

Eathrin

ganmo wrote: »

But it's nowhere near as bad as you stated. Closer to half of what you said was the figure for animal agri is the total agri co2 emissions

I did say in my original post that this figure was just one estimate from a popular and widely cited report. The report you provided states that agriculture is responsible for roughly 31% of all of Ireland's Greenhouse Gas output. We can contend how bad the figure is all day, that doesn't change the fact that any amount of pollution is a bad thing for the planet and the human race.

Waffletraktor

Eathrin wrote: »

ganmo wrote: »

But it's nowhere near as bad as you stated. Closer to half of what you said was the figure for animal agri is the total agri co2 emissions

I did say in my original post that this figure was just one estimate from a popular and widely cited report. The report you provided states that agriculture is responsible for roughly 31% of all of Ireland's Greenhouse Gas output. We can contend how bad the figure is all day, that doesn't change the fact that any amount of pollution is a bad thing for the planet and the human race.

And the 12 months of summer diet of non native products doesn't?

Say my name

Eathrin wrote: »

I did say in my original post that this figure was just one estimate from a popular and widely cited report. The report you provided states that agriculture is responsible for roughly 31% of all of Ireland's Greenhouse Gas output. We can contend how bad the figure is all day, that doesn't change the fact that any amount of pollution is a bad thing for the planet and the human race.

I don't want to get bogged down in this because it just ends in a shouting match and who can shout the loudest.
But just to say agriculture is the only industry or you could say natural process in the world that catches carbon.
This is never mentioned in such reports.
It should be acknowledged.

As for animals producing GHG. I could probably find reports that a vegan diet produces more greenhouse gases than a non vegan diet.
As for the farmer managed ruminants. There's exciting research out now on seaweed based and also char products reducing methane produced and benefiting the health of the animal too. So win win.

On the vegan diet here's two.

https://www.sciencealert.com/vegetarian-and-healthy-diets-may-actually-be-worse-for-the-environment-study-finds

http://www.medicaldaily.com/vegetarians-cause-more-greenhouse-gas-emissions-meat-eaters-worst-foods-environment-365398

Eathrin

farmerwifelet wrote: »

im anaemic and so is my son - we need to eat red meat.

Some people can be healthy as vegans but some like me need the meat.

Some people like the taste of meat and some people don't like to eat meat for ethical reasons. I respect your decision to be vegan please respect my decision to eat red meat.

That's a small subset of the population that have anemia. Even still, there are plenty of vegans with anemia. An iron deficient anaemic person can get all of their nutritional needs from plants, for example.

I loved the taste of meat when I ate it. I can understand, but I can't really respect a decision that harms others.

Waffletraktor wrote: »

And the 12 months of summer diet of non native products doesn't?

Do you really only eat meat and drink milk yourself? Do you not eat imported fruit? Do you not eat rice or imported vegetables? I eat potatoes, pasta and bread just like anyone else, all from ingredients grown here. There are plenty examples of soya, beans, nuts, quinoa etc being grown in the UK and it's happening here too. Do you think that I exclusively eat avocado or something?

Say my name wrote: »

I don't want to get bogged down in this because it just ends in a shouting match and who can shout the loudest.

This is precisely why I left the thread the first time. Not you, but another poster decided to make it a bit petty by taunting then.

But just to say agriculture is the only industry or you could say natural process in the world that catches carbon.
This is never mentioned in such reports.
It should be acknowledged.

I don't 100% understand what you are saying? If you're saying that ag isn't the only industry that produces harmful emissions then you are of course absolutely right. But I don't think the existence of another bad thing makes this justifiable. Vegans aren't all single issue people.

As for animals producing GHG. I could probably find reports that a vegan diet produces more greenhouse gases than a non vegan diet.
As for the farmer managed ruminants. There's exciting research out now on seaweed based and also char products reducing methane produced and benefiting the health of the animal too. So win win.

On the vegan diet here's two.

https://www.sciencealert.com/vegetarian-and-healthy-diets-may-actually-be-worse-for-the-environment-study-finds

http://www.medicaldaily.com/vegetarians-cause-more-greenhouse-gas-emissions-meat-eaters-worst-foods-environment-365398

Using seaweed as feed and fertiliser would undoubtedly be a great thing for the environment if the reports are to be believed. Absolutely. Where I'm coming from on the debate however, this still doesn't make animal products in anyway necessary for us to live. I still wouldn't be happy that sentient beings are having their lives cut way short and it's not necessary for our good health, often much the opposite.

https://img.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_1024w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2014/03/11/Food/Images/emissionsCHART_NUupdate.jpg?uuid=g3H2xqlGEeOKe8HGhOJnHw

The above, from your own link, should tell you just how terrible that article's argument is. When you eliminate meat from the diet, you don't load up on broccoli. We eat a lot more beans, nuts and legumes i.e. the ones right at the bottom. I eat more or less the same amount of vegetables as before.

Mooooo

It's the method at which a lot of these accounts are used, Twitter handles with no names only an emotive phrase, putting an opinion piece up as evidence of some bull**** etc. Not targeted at the contributors in this thread. Also this comment constantly thrown out of canstantly impregnated animals. I assume most people have seen David Attenborough and similar programmes. What happens with herds of animals similar to cows in the wild every spring? They give birth, 2 months later they are again bred by the males in the herd, the same as a cow is. Year after year in the wild the same thing happens. They are served when in standing heat, and that is the only time domestic cows are served.
Also with regard to going without dairy I have asked this a number of times and never been answered. If a mother gives birth and cannot breastfeed for whatever reason, milk formula from dairy is the alternative for the child, there is no vegan alternative

Say my name

Just a few words before I go and get the milking done.
It's food miles we should be concentrating on.

The ethics of killing an animal.
I'd have no qualms in that regard. As long as it's done in a quick and painless manner. Only for the farmer that animal wouldn't be in existence and we all want to exist. And the farmer gives that animal a good well fed pain free comfortable life. Half the human population of the world don't even get that privilege. Animals in the natural world lead a more stressed dangerous life with not as humane a death. So I don't get the ethics question.

croot

Mooooo wrote: »

Also with regard to going without dairy I have asked this a number of times and never been answered. If a mother gives birth and cannot breastfeed for whatever reason, milk formula from dairy is the alternative for the child, there is no vegan alternative

My llittle one had to be on soya milk from about 2 months due to dietary issues. Would that not be a vegan alternative?

Happily she drinks milk now with no problem.

Eathrin

Mooooo wrote: »

It's the method at which a lot of these accounts are used, Twitter handles with no names only an emotive phrase, putting an opinion piece up as evidence of some bull**** etc. Not targeted at the contributors in this thread. Also this comment constantly thrown out of canstantly impregnated animals. I assume most people have seen David Attenborough and similar programmes. What happens with herds of animals similar to cows in the wild every spring? They give birth, 2 months later they are again bred by the males in the herd, the same as a cow is. Year after year in the wild the same thing happens. They are served when in standing heat, and that is the only time domestic cows are served.
Also with regard to going without dairy I have asked this a number of times and never been answered. If a mother gives birth and cannot breastfeed for whatever reason, milk formula from dairy is the alternative for the child, there is no vegan alternative

Forced impregnation + Taking away of their babies + taking their milk meant for their babies is not natural.

With regards baby formula, you have vegan breast milk donors and soy formula too for lactose intolerant babies. Some doctors may say soy formula is not appropriate for a particular child so dairy based formula may be necessary if a donor can't be found. This wouldn't require a very big dairy industry at all.

Say my name wrote: »

Just a few words before I go and get the milking done.
It's food miles we should be concentrating on.

Nearly all the food I eat can be grown in Ireland, without polytunnels or greenhouses. If it can't, I probably don't eat any more of it than you do.

The ethics of killing an animal.
I'd have no qualms in that regard. As long as it's done in a quick and painless manner. Only for the farmer that animal wouldn't be in existence and we all want to exist. And the farmer gives that animal a good well fed pain free comfortable life. Half the human population of the world don't even get that privilege. Animals in the natural world lead a more stressed dangerous life with not as humane a death. So I don't get the ethics question.

We have no concept of existence if we never existed. No being wants to exist only to be killed or enslaved. There's really no such thing as a humane death in agriculture. At least wild animals have freedom.

Humane - "having or showing compassion or benevolence"

wrangler

croot wrote: »

My llittle one had to be on soya milk from about 2 months due to dietary issues. Would that not be a vegan alternative?

Happily she drinks milk now with no problem.

A lot of people would be a lot healthier if they didn't use dairy products,
It definitely triggers my asthma and have told people with asthmatic children to try dropping it with results also exzema, i use very little dairy products and asthma drugs now

ganmo

Eathrin wrote: »

I did say in my original post that this figure was just one estimate from a popular and widely cited report. The report you provided states that agriculture is responsible for roughly 31% of all of Ireland's Greenhouse Gas output. We can contend how bad the figure is all day, that doesn't change the fact that any amount of pollution is a bad thing for the planet and the human race.

What report?
I gave you a link please do the same.

Waffle is there quinoa grown in England?

patsy_mccabe

Eathrin wrote: »

Forced impregnation + Taking away of their babies + taking their milk meant for their babies is not natural.

Taking a puppy away from it's mother at a young age is not natural.
Neutering a dog is not natural.
Putting a coller and lead on a dog is not natural.
Locking a dog up for most of the day is not natural.
Scooping the poop is not natural.

But hey, all dog owners do these things because that's the reality of owning a dog.
Same for farmers. There are so called 'unnatural things' we have to do too. That's our reality.

Waffletraktor

Eathrin wrote: »

Do you really only eat meat and drink milk yourself? Do you not eat imported fruit? Do you not eat rice or imported vegetables? I eat potatoes, pasta and bread just like anyone else, all from ingredients grown here. There are plenty examples of soya, beans, nuts, quinoa etc being grown in the UK and it's happening here too. Do you think that I exclusively eat avocado or something?

.

Sorry i thought you ate twiggs, grass and leaves personally. Most of our fruit and veg comes in a weekly box, most of which is produced in the deep south without the need for air miles thanks to modern growhouses. There is fook all soya grown in the UK as it's unviable due to climate and no one wants to spend the 200 million or so required to get a variety that is suitable. The need to be 5 years from a cereal crop makes quinoa unviable. Field beans are common but mostly sent to middle east. In ireland your unable to produce the wheats required to produce bread or pasta anway. Cereals get moved on ships and bargess. More co2 air miles efficient than a few pallets on a truck from southern spain or a plane from chile or further a field.
Irelands climate does not make it suitable for growing crops other than proven staples to human consumption standard.

Mooooo

Eathrin wrote: »

Forced impregnation + Taking away of their babies + taking their milk meant for their babies is not natural.

With regards baby formula, you have vegan breast milk donors and soy formula too for lactose intolerant babies. Some doctors may say soy formula is not appropriate for a particular child so dairy based formula may be necessary if a donor can't be found. This wouldn't require a very big dairy industry at all.



Nearly all the food I eat can be grown in Ireland, without polytunnels or greenhouses. If it can't, I probably don't eat any more of it than you do.



We have no concept of existence if we never existed. No being wants to exist only to be killed or enslaved. There's really no such thing as a humane death in agriculture. At least wild animals have freedom.

Humane - "having or showing compassion or benevolence"

Forced impregnation?? I ai when they are in heat. The bull is then left with the cows for the last few weeks of breeding. I have an Aberdeen angus bull which would be smaller than most and I can tell you ai is definitely more gentle than a 700kg bull driving his rod into a cow when in heat.