Ear to the ground

NcdJd

Just on domestic sewage. A friend of mine has a field beside a traveller housing scheme. They have most of the sewage piped to the road but there is a big run off into his field which he has reported to both the council and irish water. Absolutely nothing has been done on it since it started 2 years ago.

Yet he had a leak in a water mains coming from the road which a plough probably pulled up and he was hounded by irish water to pay the bill.

He asked me did I want to grow something in said field I told him no, no point in me growing produce in land that has raw sewage running into it.

Raw sewage is a major problem for waterways around the country but councils seem to ignore it? If my septic tank was leaking im sure I'd have the council on my door the next morning.

Buford T. Justice XIX

NcdJd wrote: »

Link to the actual article if it comes out right for me.

https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/sep/28/weve-crossed-a-threshold-has-industrial-farming-contributed-to-irelands-water-crisis?__twitter_impression=true

Bad move by her, I think.

It's not really possible to run with the hare and run with the hounds as well.

Say my name

Lime Tree Farm wrote: »

easy now - the compass always pointing north?

I was wondering who Dan was?

Ain't it funny though how it always animals are the culprit of the intensification lark by left wing writers.
And never a tillage intensification is mentioned.
Tillage always gets a free pass by the Cow haters. Yet it's tillage ground in Ireland is the largest releasers of nitrates into waterways. Only a cursory mention of poultry waste and where does that get applied...Tillage ground.

NcdJd

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Bad move by her, I think.

It's not really possible to run with the hare and run with the hounds as well.

She was always that way in my book. I've nothing against her, there's a minority in every walk of life that couldn't give a fiddlers about rivers or lakes. Just she can't just blame one industry and ignore all others.

NcdJd

Say my name wrote: »

I was wondering who Dan was?

Ain't it funny though how it always animals are the culprit of the intensification lark by left wing writers.
And never a tillage intensification is mentioned.
Tillage always gets a free pass by the Cow haters. Yet it's tillage ground in Ireland is the largest releasers of nitrates into waterways. Only a cursory mention of poultry waste and where does that get applied...Tillage ground.

I can't see anything in that article other than opinions but like most articles on the environment nothing backed up by actual facts.

Say my name

NcdJd wrote: »

I can't see anything in that article other than opinions but like most articles on the environment nothing backed up by actual facts.

Hearts and minds...bought and paid for.

Say my name

Say my name wrote: »

I was wondering who Dan was?

Ain't it funny though how it always animals are the culprit of the intensification lark by left wing writers.
And never a tillage intensification is mentioned.
Tillage always gets a free pass by the Cow haters. Yet it's tillage ground in Ireland is the largest releasers of nitrates into waterways. Only a cursory mention of poultry waste and where does that get applied...Tillage ground.

Frank Mitloehner has done bits on Twitter about the Guardian "Animal Farmed" series, of which the above article is one in the series. Something called the Open Philanthropy Project pays for these articles. I'm sure entirely coincidentally the OPP is an investor in Impossible Foods.

https://twitter.com/GHGGuru/status/1308803439233654784?s=20

I spoke to Ella this week about other things, she did very briefly mention this article and did mention sewage discharge to me anyway. She may yet find it increasingly difficult to find farmers willing to speak with her on issues if her coverage of them is seen as being biased or slanted towards certain interests.

jaymla627

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Bad move by her, I think.

It's not really possible to run with the hare and run with the hounds as well.

Was strange her referencing the push by the government to push dairying was only driven on the back of a depressed economy, the economy isn't in the greatest of health at the minute, and could be on life support in 2021, dismissing the contribution of agricultural to the economy present day given what could be coming down the tracks was very strange, dairying is the heartbeat of the rural economy in alot of areas in Ireland and supporting a huge amount of jobs not just the farmer

Buford T. Justice XIX

jaymla627 wrote: »

Was strange her referencing the push by the government to push dairying was only driven on the back of a depressed economy, the economy isn't in the greatest of health at the minute, and could be on life support in 2021, dismissing the contribution of agricultural to the economy present day given what could be coming down the tracks was very strange, dairying is the heartbeat of the rural economy in alot of areas in Ireland and supporting a huge amount of jobs not just the farmer

I think a lot of people who should know better, and I would certainly include her in that, are sucked into the anti agriculture bubble that seems very pronounced on RTE with the recent past.

Every environmental announcement by RTE targets Agriculture as having 34% of the total emissions, which is true but is not the whole story. What they eternally fail to mention is that Agriculture is the only consumer of CO2 and that focusing on the 34% gross emissions instead of the much, much smaller net Agricultural emissions.

But I guess that would shine a light more on their own lack of actions in reducing the drawdown of fossil fuels that their preferred lifestyle choices require so it's easier to shine the light on the easiest target rather than the correct target.

Panch18

I've been saying on here for quite a while now - this little brat and McCullogh are 2 dangerous people for Irish agriculture - they get to spout their crap, without any counter argument, and they get to do it week in week out, on 2 of the the biggest media platform in Ireland and also on the Guardian being 1 of top 10 media outlets in the world.

<Mod snip>

farmertipp

Panch18 wrote: »

I've been saying on here for quite a while now - this little brat and McCullogh are 2 dangerous people for Irish agriculture - they get to spout their crap, without any counter argument, and they get to do it week in week out, on 2 of the the biggest media platform in Ireland and also on the Guardian being 1 of top 10 media outlets in the world.

<Mod snip>

exactly following the mantra of the rte mandarins who are thankfully broke atm

farmertipp

in courtmacsherry all the runoff from the village sewage and Timoleague up the rd was discharged by the council into the bay until this year. them scientists must be fuc king blind.
blaming farmers entirely for it is a joke. all the locals know it was sewage.

farmertipp

in courtmacsherry all the runoff from the village sewage and Timoleague up the rd was discharged by the council into the bay until this year. them scientists must be fuc king blind.
blaming farmers entirely for it is a joke. all the locals know it was sewage.

alps

Cara Augustenborg has just done wreck on Newstalk...

**** me pink...some agenda against ruminants right now..

University lecturers...can you just imagine what she's doing to the next generation...

_Brian

I don’t post to be popular and this isn’t going to be much different.

Am I the only one that thinks the article isn’t that bad.

Before anything it calls out the significant problem with sewage and the massive impact and scale of raw sewage being pumped into Irish waterways.

But also calls out the growing impact of intensive agriculture on degrading water ways.

It doesn’t say that ag is the only contributing factor in the drop in water quality but references scientific research that has tied ag related pollutants to the intensification of dairy in particular.

Someone mentioned that it ignored intensification of tillage, I thought the area under tillage was down as land went in search of white gold, maybe I’m wrong on that ??

Ag can’t just pretend it has zero impact because it’s just not true. Whataboutery pointing at sewage which was recognised in the article isn’t any use.

We shouldn’t need hyper intensive Farming for farmers to make a crust, when bottled water is more expensive than milk in the shops you can see that milk right down the chain to suppliers is undervalued. It’s not a food any more it’s a commodity and racing to need commodity demands is the problem.

We have to be ready for other opinions, some farmers might see some rise in groundwater pollution as a fair trade off, just remember that outside farming circles this is less likely to be the case.

Say my name

For Brian. In this area in the country tillage is taking more land every year.
Maybe it's just specific here but there's a sizeable tillage area in Cork too.
There was no reports only opinion in that article linking pollution to a specific agricultural practice bar the bit about the specific antibiotic found in water in Meath.

Down here it's all grassland retiring farmers putting farms to lease being taking up into tillage.
Tillage farmers are well up into the thousands of acres farmed in the se.

Say my name

If stones are going to be thrown.
The thrower should make sure to have specific facts. Ella not Brian.

The water testing system of Europe that specifically locates their testing sites to only ensure that what they test is the result of agriculture.

https://www.farmersjournal.ie/comparing-nitrate-levels-in-water-across-the-eu-505899

_Brian

Say my name wrote: »

There was no reports only opinion in that article linking pollution to a specific agricultural practice bar the bit about the specific antibiotic found in water in Meath. .

But it specifically links to scientific research and quotes same scientists as directly linking the expansion of dairy to the increase in the problems seen. Maybe they are taking correlation as causation which is loose interpretation of data, I don’t have access to the report to see the details.

I’m all for someone debunking the science of tuere is a decent argument to be made, all too often science is one sided.

But we can’t just say it’s only an opinion piece when clearly that’s not the case, we mightn’t like what’s being said but at least acknowledge that it’s not just opinion.

When faced with scientific reports we don’t like the retort is to review and critique the science or interpretation of the data, not to just say “that’s your opinion”, if that’s what ag does then the argument is already lost.

Say my name

_Brian wrote: »

But it specifically links to scientific research and quotes same scientists as directly linking the expansion of dairy to the increase in the problems seen. Maybe they are taking correlation as causation which is loose interpretation of data, I don’t have access to the report to see the details.

I’m all for someone debunking the science of tuere is a decent argument to be made, all too often science is one sided.

But we can’t just say it’s only an opinion piece when clearly that’s not the case, we mightn’t like what’s being said but at least acknowledge that it’s not just opinion.

When faced with scientific reports we don’t like the retort is to review and critique the science or interpretation of the data, not to just say “that’s your opinion”, if that’s what agdoes then the argument is already lost.

You'll have to show me the report.

The only report in the article that shows the link between the rise in dairy numbers and the water quality in Courtmacsharry was a linked report by Galway scientists on algae on the Tolka river which is in Dublin.

Wishing for something to be true doesn't make it so.

Buford T. Justice XIX

_Brian wrote: »

But it specifically links to scientific research and quotes same scientists as directly linking the expansion of dairy to the increase in the problems seen. Maybe they are taking correlation as causation which is loose interpretation of data, I don’t have access to the report to see the details.

I’m all for someone debunking the science of tuere is a decent argument to be made, all too often science is one sided.

But we can’t just say it’s only an opinion piece when clearly that’s not the case, we mightn’t like what’s being said but at least acknowledge that it’s not just opinion.

When faced with scientific reports we don’t like the retort is to review and critique the science or interpretation of the data, not to just say “that’s your opinion”, if that’s what ag does then the argument is already lost.

Well, there's data and then there's data. Like I said before, the local village was having difficulties with sewerage before the boom. Yet permission was given to double the housing during the boom and no funding provided to either deal with the previous issues or expand the scale of the plant or cater for the increased demands newly placed on the plant.

It's common knowledge that there's often sewerage discharged into the river, nobody down river from the plant would even consider letting cattle drink from the river.

Now go down a couple of miles to the common testing spots and the nitrates and phosphates being picked up there are attributed to agricultural runoff.

Now, Ag certainly has to improve its management of nutrients but, likewise, so does the urban population. There's numerous plans and legislation in place to push/pull agriculture further along the path but, tbh, down here, an upgrade of just one villages sewerage would dramatically reduce Agricultural pollution.

Likewise, last year, I clicked into a news report reporting a major agricultural spill in North Dublin. Jaysus, sez I, some farmer is going to get screwed because there was reports of a large fish kill for a long section of the river.

I heard no more until I checked later in the day and the Ag references had been removed and the severity had been down graded.

I checked again a day or two later and it turn out some heavy rain had overwhelmed the local sewerage system and plans were being put in place to manage the situation better. There's quite a different reporting both on the pollution and the necessary responses needed to prevent its reoccurance.

Sauce for the goose apparently isn't sauce for the gander.

_Brian

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

Well, there's data and then there's data. Like I said before, the local village was having difficulties with sewerage before the boom. Yet permission was given to double the housing during the boom and no funding provided to either deal with the previous issues or expand the scale of the plant or cater for the increased demands newly placed on the plant.

It's common knowledge that there's often sewerage discharged into the river, nobody down river from the plant would even consider letting cattle drink from the river.

Now go down a couple of miles to the common testing spots and the nitrates and phosphates being picked up there are attributed to agricultural runoff.

Now, Ag certainly has to improve its management of nutrients but, likewise, so does the urban population. There's numerous plans and legislation in place to push/pull agriculture further along the path but, tbh, down here, an upgrade of just one villages sewerage would dramatically reduce Agricultural pollution.

Likewise, last year, I clicked into a news report reporting a major agricultural spill in North Dublin. Jaysus, sez I, some farmer is going to get screwed because there was reports of a large fish kill for a long section of the river.

I heard no more until I checked later in the day and the Ag references had been removed and the severity had been down graded.

I checked again a day or two later and it turn out some heavy rain had overwhelmed the local sewerage system and plans were being put in place to manage the situation better. There's quite a different reporting both on the pollution and the necessary responses needed to prevent its reoccurance.

Sauce for the goose apparently isn't sauce for the gander.

I agree there are issues with sewage, the article also recognised and calls it out.

_Brian

Say my name wrote: »

You'll have to show me the report.

The only report in the article that shows the link between the rise in dairy numbers and the water quality in Courtmacsharry was a linked report by Galway scientists on algae on the Tolka river which is in Dublin.

Wishing for something to be true doesn't make it so.

I haven’t seen the report, so I can’t share it with you.

And I’m not wishing either way

jaymla627

_Brian wrote: »

I haven’t seen the report, so I can’t share it with you.

And I’m not wishing either way

EU government is bringing Irish government to court in the not so distant future over detoriating quality of drinking water especially in rural areas and has reqy

Say my name

_Brian wrote: »

I haven’t seen the report, so I can’t share it with you.

And I’m not wishing either way

So no facts. That's exactly what all the outrage was about Ella's piece.
We're on the same wave length at least now.
One can be as objective as one likes which is a good thing but it always has to be followed by facts. Even from scientists. Not just opinion from scientists.

One more thing maybe it's not fair but Ella uses the term industrialised farming.
What in your view is industrialised farming?
Is it in Ireland?
Is it a positive or negative?

jaymla627

_Brian wrote: »

I haven’t seen the report, so I can’t share it with you.

And I’m not wishing either way

EU commission is bringing Irish government to court in the not so distant future over detoriating quality of drinking water especially in rural areas, various reports been requested re plants pumping raw sewage into waterways and the level of their impact on water quality, one way our the other it will show exactly how much both sides are polluting and put some concrete figures on it

_Brian

Say my name wrote: »

So no facts. That's exactly what all the outrage was about Ella's piece.
We're on the same wave length at least now.
One can be as objective as one likes which is a good thing but it always has to be followed by facts. Even from scientists. Not just opinion from scientists.

One more thing maybe it's not fair but Ella uses the term industrialised farming.
What in your view is industrialised farming?
Is it in Ireland?
Is it a positive or negative?

It’s poor journalism to link to an article that’s not widely available or behind a paywall. But that doesn’t instantly mean there’s no facts behind the article.

Industrialised farming ??
I’m Not going down that rabbit hole.

If you showed someone from the 1890’s a two unit bucket plant sucking milk from cows they would probably say it’s been industrialised.

Panch18

Brian lets get a few things straight here

there are approx 1355 words in the article - 61 of those words can be attributable to sewerage and small doff of the cap to spruce plantation.

That leave a whopping 1295 words, or 95% of the article focused solely on the bad dairy industry and building the narrative around that - hardly balanced journalism would you say.

A couple of other points - she mentions that dairy cow numbers have gone up by 400k - but fails to note a couple of key points, 1 being that the suckler herd population is falling and 2 that we had as many cows as we do now back in the 80's before the quota.

Another MAJOR point is that fertilser use in Ireland hasn't changed in the last 20 years, if anything it is down - it was certainly down from 2015 compared to 2005. AND fertilser use in Ireland is lower now than it was in the 1980's

Also absolutely no mention of the fact that we now have calendar farming for both natural and artificial fertiliser, if these deadlines haven't helped the environment then why are we being subjected to them?? No mention whatsoever of any measures that have been taken by farmers over the last 30 years - including the huge spending that we have done on slurry storage and waste water management.

No mention either of tillage and how the run off from tillage ground could be contributing to the poor water quality

And 1 thing that is really grinding my gears - calling Irish farmers INDUSTRIAL - if she wants to see industrial she should travel a bit and see what real industrial farming is like

_Brian

jaymla627 wrote: »

EU commission is bringing Irish government to court in the not so distant future over detoriating quality of drinking water especially in rural areas, various reports been requested re plants pumping raw sewage into waterways and the level of their impact on water quality, one way our the other it will show exactly how much both sides are polluting and put some concrete figures on it

Can’t see it happening.
Probably a deal will be struck to pay a fine and new targets produced to kick the can down the road.
FG messed up the introduction of water/waste charges and the PBP populist lads caught against them in this country so we’re going to struggle for cash to have proper facilities.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Say my name wrote: »

So no facts. That's exactly what all the outrage was about Ella's piece.
We're on the same wave length at least now.
One can be as objective as one likes which is a good thing but it always has to be followed by facts. Even from scientists. Not just opinion from scientists.

One more thing maybe it's not fair but Ella uses the term industrialised farming.
What in your view is industrialised farming?
Is it in Ireland?
Is it a positive or negative?

When that article came out first, one lad made a comment that it was like playing vegan bingo there were so many buzzwords and loaded catchphrases in it.

NcdJd

In fairness though, this is not something that has been happening yesterday or even 10 years ago.

I used to fish for trout in a small river in Galway on my grandfather's farm. You could drink the water out of it it was so clean. Lovely brown trout in it. One day I noticed it had a scum on all the weeds in the river and on the bottom. Told my Grandfather who rang the fisheries board at the time as his cattle would be drinking the water out of it. Turns out some wombat upstream decided to start emptying his slurry tankers into it. ( that was 30 years ago )

The little stream that is a few hundred yards from me always contained minnows and sticklebacks and kingfishers... the wash from the planes at Dublin Airport completely destroyed it one year and turned the water a sort of fluorescent green so all the fish are now gone. Earlier this year I found a drum of burnt oil dumped into it... lifeless stream now.

I don't really know what type of point I'm trying to make here and in fairness most of you have made some valid points but it maddens me the way rivers and streams have been completely fcked up be it from agriculture, industry or even some individual who decides to be a lazy bastard and instead dump it in the river.

There really is no need for it other than laziness, money saving or just plain ignorance.

Edit, forgot the councils and their sewage... I'll get lynched if I don't put that in ha.