The Spawell complex for Dublin GAA - back on the agenda

munchkin_utd

I would point out that Leinster Rugby, which is a unit of the IRFU who own the Aviva, plays their less important games in the RDS rather than the Aviva stadium which they essentially own. So theres already a precident of a prominent team in Dublin downsizing despite a large and modern stadium being there to host their games, if they wanted it .

from a general GAA point of view, for Dublin to play in Croke park would indeed make more sense as then the greater organisation gets rent off Dublin for their league games and smaller Leinster ties, so croke park stadium is better financed for running costs and ongoing renovations and more cash goes to the other counties eventually from a greater profit.

on the other hand, from Dublin GAA point of view, having a medium sized stadium in the south of the city where most league games can be held makes heaps of sense as youre saving on rent to the GAA / Croke park ltd and hosting games in a stadium with a far better atmosphere. Youre also generating interest in the game on the south side of the city compared to currently when both Croke park and Parnell park are on the northside.
I'd not worry about Dublin filling their stadium and making it pay, the hype of having a new stadium in a big city should mean full attendances at most games for the first good number of years.

The Lost Sheep

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I would point out that Leinster Rugby, which is a unit of the IRFU who own the Aviva, plays their less important games in the RDS rather than the Aviva stadium which they essentially own. So theres already a precident of a prominent team in Dublin downsizing despite a large and modern stadium being there to host their games, if they wanted it .

from a general GAA point of view, for Dublin to play in Croke park would indeed make more sense as then the greater organisation gets rent off Dublin for their league games and smaller Leinster ties, so croke park stadium is better financed for running costs and ongoing renovations and more cash goes to the other counties eventually from a greater profit.

on the other hand, from Dublin GAA point of view, having a medium sized stadium in the south of the city where most league games can be held makes heaps of sense as youre saving on rent to the GAA / Croke park ltd and hosting games in a stadium with a far better atmosphere. Youre also generating interest in the game on the south side of the city compared to currently when both Croke park and Parnell park are on the northside.
I'd not worry about Dublin filling their stadium and making it pay, the hype of having a new stadium in a big city should mean full attendances at most games for the first good number of years.

Leinster rugby do not at all essentially own the RDS. They are tenants to the Royal Dublin Society. They play all bar 2 games, that they are guaranteed each season, in the RDS and the sole reason they have 2 regular season games in the Aviva is the deal with the RDS was made when the Italians were not part of the celtic league.
Leinster dont downsize by playing virtually all their games in the RDS. Playing more in the Aviva would be a waste and doesnt look as good.

CatInABox

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

My opinion, backed up with pretty solid logic. Im not stating it as fact, but obviously anyone debating it would need to be countering that solid logic. If that were to happen then fine, Id accept that. That hasn't happened yet though.

Again though, it's only pretty solid logic in your opinion.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

First off, is there definitely a COE in the plan? I have heard mixed reports. Secondly, there is already a brand new centre of excellence in Dublin... Why cant they just avail of that one?

Nothing has been announced, and won't be until they apply for planning, but the general thought is that it will include the CoE.

The National Games Development Centre is not the same as a CoE, and was set up to encourage the games throughout the country, not just Dublin. In fact, the Dublin based Mayo players train there once a week.

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Well that may be the case, but getting a bit of a better atmosphere is hardly worth all that cash in fairness is it? Im sure clubs could put that money to much better use than generating a bit of an atmosphere at the few games that will bring in too big a crowd for parnell park... Like you would want around 18,000 in a 25,000 stadium to create a decent atmosphere, how many games will generate this?
Mayo club finals are played in McHale park, and that wont be filled or anywhere near it, but everyone goes to the stand and the atmosphere isn't too bad when everyone is together. That definitely isn't reason to build a second stadium though. How often does Parnell park actually sell out for club games etc, out of interest?

As has been stated, the money from Croke Park goes into the central GAA coffers, with Dublin having to pay to rent the stadium. Having a Dublin GAA owed stadium will mean more money to invest in Dublin clubs in the long run. It'll also be a lot cheaper to run matches there, with no street closures, less policing, etc.

PARlance

Dublin should have it's own county ground that is fit for purpose, PP falls short on this. A 25,000 stadium is just about right imo. Probably more capacity that is currently needed but it allows growth. The location is good, being a stones throw from the M50. Public transport can and should improved up for matches.

There's far more to it then the senior mens team. Club teams, the County Hurlers, Women and Underage should have a decent modern home.

I've returned to Mayo so I'm not using the driving range anymore. Fire ahead, I say.

salmocab

ProudDUB wrote: »

Getting out to Lucan is a bit of a trek, for me. I'm willing to soldier on,

Not sure if Im taking you up wrong but you do know that the spawell is nowhere near Lucan its in Tempelogue. Its around the corner from Ballybodens clubhouse and beside Faughs and St Judes.
Are you thinking of the Spa hotel?

ProudDUB

salmocab wrote: »

Not sure if Im taking you up wrong but you do know that the spawell is nowhere near Lucan its in Tempelogue. Its around the corner from Ballybodens clubhouse and beside Faughs and St Judes.
Are you thinking of the Spa hotel?

Yeah, already been pulled up on that.

salmocab

Anyway regards the site its got great access by road with an M50 jct a few hundred yards away but not great public transport although there is a bus terminus close by so presumably something could be easily done as specials. I imagine that there are very few land banks inside the M50 that have as much room and I think I remember something a few years back regards its zoning that it can't be used for housing it has to be recreation but obviously such things in this country are open to kick backs. It would be large enough for a stadium several pitches and gym facilities, offices etc and still have room for a big carpark. It also has very few neighbours too close with the dual carriageway down one side, Tymon park around 2 sides and a cemetery across the road, I would assume the stadium would be toward the m50 side of the land keeping it well away from the nearby houses.
Ideally this would all be closer to the city centre but the reality is the only land I can think of that would fit is the IGB land near ringsend.

Prop Joe

Would there be any logic in ground sharing in the Tallaght stadium? I know the pitch would need to be expanded and additional work on exsisting stands plus terrace/Seating behind the goals but a multi-purpose stadium just seems more sense.

Build a nice center of excellence in Spawell instead.

Ground sharing with Leinster Rugby would be ideal but i doubt they will move from RDS.

TCDStudent1

Prop Joe wrote: »

Would there be any logic in ground sharing in the Tallaght stadium? I know the pitch would need to be expanded and additional work on exsisting stands plus terrace/Seating behind the goals but a multi-purpose stadium just seems more sense.

Build a nice center of excellence in Spawell instead.

Ground sharing with Leinster Rugby would be ideal but i doubt they will move from RDS.

Ooh wasn't there a big row over tallaght stadium when it was being built? The club out there wanted it to be a gaa stadium as well.

Oasis_Dublin

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Would you not think option (a) (with the condition that the money is spent on the clubs instead) would be a far better option for all involved? Especially when you consider that the championship games will be in croke park anyway, as the new stadium will only hold 25000... It seems like a lot to spend on a place to play about 3 league games and maybe one championship games a year...

By that logic, the GAA shouldn't invest money in Castlebar, Salthill, or Markievicz Park so!

BonnieSituation

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Ooh wasn't there a big row over tallaght stadium when it was being built? The club out there wanted it to be a gaa stadium as well.

Yup. Even as a GAA man first and foremost I've never really forgiven the hullabaloo over that. Absolutely disgraceful carry-on. Was delighted that SDCC and Rovers won the case.

Delayed its building interminably. The place looked pathetic half built and a monument to Irish planing fiascos.

rpurfield

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Leinster rugby do not at all essentially own the RDS. They are tenants to the Royal Dublin Society. They play all bar 2 games, that they are guaranteed each season, in the RDS and the sole reason they have 2 regular season games in the Aviva is the deal with the RDS was made when the Italians were not part of the celtic league.
Leinster dont downsize by playing virtually all their games in the RDS. Playing more in the Aviva would be a waste and doesnt look as good.

Leinster actually moved out of Donnybrook to the RDS as it was bigger, there's plans to expand the RDS now pretty much on the back of them being tennants.

The Lost Sheep

rpurfield wrote: »

Leinster actually moved out of Donnybrook to the RDS as it was bigger, there's plans to expand the RDS now pretty much on the back of them being tenants.

Yes but op was going on about ownership and they were wrong in that issue

MayoAreMagic

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

By that logic, the GAA shouldn't invest money in Castlebar, Salthill, or Markievicz Park so!

If there was a far superior option based in any of the counties you have referenced, then I would agree

damemcd

Cost Thomas Davis a fair few bob in legal fees,which they couldve used on their own club developments.

munchkin_utd

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Yes but op was going on about ownership and they were wrong in that issue

i said that Leinster "plays their less important games in the RDS rather than the Aviva stadium which they essentially own."
So comparing the RDS to the Aviva which they own.

Hard to read out of it that I said they own the RDS, especially if you have half an inkling into the fact that the RDS is a society devoted to agriculture and the likes which wouldnt be likely to ever sell the location for their prime event, the horse show, to outside interests.

I believe they sold a corner of the RDS site back in the days which then became the 4 seasons, but that was a consequence of them no longer needing such a massive plot now that they werent hosting the Spring show and the ploughing championships taking over as the prime farm machinery exhibition.

But back on topic, Dublin could indeed do a leinster and move their regular games to a more compact ground, but unlike leinster they'd be paying rent to themselves so the stadium would be self funding and eventually could be a profit maker for the Dublin county board

aidan24326

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Seems like more needless waste (if Dublin are 100% paying for it themselves then fine off they go) but I'm not sure it is really necessary for Dublin to have their own stadium when they can use Croke Park.The money could be put to much better use,, same applies to the ridiculously costly development of Pairc Ui Caoimh. There aren't enough big games to justify all these stadia around the country.

Totally agree. We have far too many big stadia with capacities that are rarely if ever required. Most league games don't attract a crowd of more than a few thousand, and a lot of provincial championship games (and qualifiers) don't attract a crowd of more than about 10,000 either, yet we spend millions building all these big stadia that lie empty for most of the year and are rarely if ever filled to capacity or even close.

secman

Speaking to someone the other evening who appears to have an inside view and he said they don't think they will get PP for a 25k seater stadium , more likely a 15k seated stadium. Apparently one of the main reasons Dublin county board want it is for the Dublin hurlers, both from a playing perspective and more importantly training facilities.

The Lost Sheep

munchkin_utd wrote: »

i said that Leinster "plays their less important games in the RDS rather than the Aviva stadium which they essentially own."
So comparing the RDS to the Aviva which they own.

Hard to read out of it that I said they own the RDS, especially if you have half an inkling into the fact that the RDS is a society devoted to agriculture and the likes which wouldnt be likely to ever sell the location for their prime event, the horse show, to outside interests.

I believe they sold a corner of the RDS site back in the days which then became the 4 seasons, but that was a consequence of them no longer needing such a massive plot now that they werent hosting the Spring show and the ploughing championships taking over as the prime farm machinery exhibition.

But back on topic, Dublin could indeed do a leinster and move their regular games to a more compact ground, but unlike leinster they'd be paying rent to themselves so the stadium would be self funding and eventually could be a profit maker for the Dublin county board

Leinster don't own Aviva. They may be a part of the IRFU but IRFU own Aviva and for each use of Aviva Leinster are paying rent. They don't own it. They don't own RDS either. They are very much held back/hamstringed by the RDS in terms of what they want from the stadium
Dublin do a Leinster? No they wont. It would be quite different.

Prop Joe

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Leinster don't own Aviva. They may be a part of the IRFU but IRFU own Aviva and for each use of Aviva Leinster are paying rent. They don't own it. They don't own RDS either. They are very much held back/hamstringed by the RDS in terms of what they want from the stadium
Dublin do a Leinster? No they wont. It would be quite different.

Would Leinster & Dublin do a groundshare somewhere? Spawell could be used as a centre of excellence and a nice compact 25k stadium would suit both perfectly

rpurfield

Prop Joe wrote: »

Would Leinster & Dublin do a groundshare somewhere? Spawell could be used as a centre of excellence and a nice compact 25k stadium would suit both perfectly

There's plans to upgrade the RDS to 20 something thousand and I think it hinges on Leinster staying there, and they have Donnybrook for their A and underage games. I honestly couldn't see them moving out to Spawell either, the RDS is right in their traditional are, it would make sense to develop a multi sports area though.

Prop Joe

rpurfield wrote: »

There's plans to upgrade the RDS to 20 something thousand and I think it hinges on Leinster staying there, and they have Donnybrook for their A and underage games. I honestly couldn't see them moving out to Spawell either, the RDS is right in their traditional are, it would make sense to develop a multi sports area though.

Yeah,I dont think Leinster would fancy moving too far but a site like Old Belvedere Rugby could be ideal for a development

CIARAN_BOYLE

The big thing to consider is how much does it cost to open up Croke Park.

I'm more of a rugby fan but the Aviva costs about 400k to open its doors hire stewards etc. I believe Croke Park might cost 600k to open hire stewards etc for even the smallest match which requires the stadium to be fully open and staffed.

The important thing with a new stadium is that it costs less than 100k a game to open and staff. That way if you move 6 games a year (guess at football and hurling league fixtures) that could we be 3 million a year saved in stadium operating costs.

If so the Stawell ground could pay for itself reasonably quickly. Better still if the GAA wants to lease the stadium out for a few games a season they could attract big games from Soccer teams or a rugby friendly in the preseason (Leinster try to move out of their traditional home in preseason).

Prop Joe

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The big thing to consider is how much does it cost to open up Croke Park.

I'm more of a rugby fan but the Aviva costs about 400k to open its doors hire stewards etc. I believe Croke Park might cost 600k to open hire stewards etc for even the smallest match which requires the stadium to be fully open and staffed.

The important thing with a new stadium is that it costs less than 100k a game to open and staff. That way if you move 6 games a year (guess at football and hurling league fixtures) that could we be 3 million a year saved in stadium operating costs.

If so the Stawell ground could pay for itself reasonably quickly. Better still if the GAA wants to lease the stadium out for a few games a season they could attract big games from Soccer teams or a rugby friendly in the preseason (Leinster try to move out of their traditional home in preseason).

Croker costs €30,000 to open for games with small attendances (I.E Junior & Intermediate club finals)

CIARAN_BOYLE

Prop Joe wrote: »

Croker costs €30,000 to open for games with small attendances (I.E Junior & Intermediate club finals)

Fair point, it's my understanding that once it passes beyond a cetrain attendance thhe stadium is fully open and needs to be fully staffed even if attendance isn't near full.

For Aviva stadium that point could be around 10k I don't know for Croke Park.

Beffs

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The big thing to consider is how much does it cost to open up Croke Park.

I'm more of a rugby fan but the Aviva costs about 400k to open its doors hire stewards etc. I believe Croke Park might cost 600k to open hire stewards etc for even the smallest match which requires the stadium to be fully open and staffed.

That is nonsense. Why would Croke Park need to be fully open and staffed for a small match? Have you never been there on days when a smallish crowd is expected? The entire upper tier of the Hogan and Cusack stands are closed.

rpurfield

Beffs wrote: »

That is nonsense. Why would Croke Park need to be fully open and staffed for a small match? Have you never been there on days when a smallish crowd is expected? The entire upper tier of the Hogan and Cusack stands are closed.

Some of the games like the the junior and inter club finals and possibly the division 3&4 finals only the Hogan is open and it's adequate. Sure the Ring replay was in it last year with an attendance of around 3-4 thousand. They wouldn't open it if they were losing a fortune.

munchkin_utd

according to the newspapers, it looks like the purchase will go through, but Dublin GAA more focused on getting a training centre with pitches up and running than a medium sized stadium

The much anticipated deal between Dublin GAA and the Davy Group for the purchase of the Spawell complex in Templeogue looks to be finally heading for conclusion by the beginning of March.

Contrary to other speculation, it is also understood that the development of a 25,000-capacity stadium on the site is not a current priority and the plan will be to develop a centre of excellence with a number of pitches, including a small-scale spectator arena with room for around 2,500, suitable for under-age matches and Sigerson or Fitzgibbon Cup fixtures.
<snip>
Plans are for training facilities similar to the GAA’s national centre opened last year in Abbotstown, four pitches, including one sand-based and with floodlights which will be fitted with spectator facilities and will relieve pressure on Crumlin’s O’Toole Park. It will not be used for major inter-county matches.

an extensive article and history of the buying process is here :
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-acquisition-of-spawell-expected-by-early-march-1.2978455

Dyr

munchkin_utd wrote: »

according to the newspapers, it looks like the purchase will go through, but Dublin GAA more focused on getting a training centre with pitches up and running than a medium sized stadium


an extensive article and history of the buying process is here :
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-acquisition-of-spawell-expected-by-early-march-1.2978455

Hopefully it means the dublin hurlers aren't going to be poor cousins anymore when it comes to access to facilities

nice_guy80

Bambi wrote: »

Hopefully it means the dublin hurlers aren't going to be poor cousins anymore when it comes to access to facilities

so the €1 million a year special funding for Dublin hurling has been cut?

Dyr

nice_guy80 wrote: »

so the €1 million a year special funding for Dublin hurling has been cut?

Access to facilities.

That's access to facilities.

Ronan Raver77

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/dublin-shelve-plans-for-45m-spawell-stadium-36063877.html

Dublin chairman Seán Shanley has revealed that plans for a stadium at the Spawell site on the south side of the city have been shelved in favour of a centre of excellence-style development.
Dublin GAA acquired the 35-acre site for a fee in excess of €9m earlier this year amidst suggestions they would build a 25,000-seater stadium at the location. However, Shanley has dismissed that idea.
"It's ours, we own it, but it'll take a bit of time to sort out the leases in it," he said of the site.

"The whole place is leased out. There's rental income coming from it. We never wanted to be landlords, but basically we want the land where the pitch and putt and the driving range is. That's to be converted into five pitches, a bit like Abbotstown, so that will be Dublin's Centre of Excellence with a nice cluster of pitches."

Plans for a stadium are believed to have been costed at around €45m with Shanley questioning the need for venue of that size.Instead, a much smaller arena that could be used to host club games will be included in the development.

"There won't be any stadium in it. Number one, it would take to long to try and get planning permission, as well as being too costly for the occasions you'd use a stadium there," he said.

"Parnell Park holds 10,000 so another stadium… if we have more than 10,000 we can go to Croke Park.
"Now, that's costly to open Croke Park for 20,000 but we don't have a decent pitch in the Spawell where local championship games can be played.

"Like, it's ridiculous bringing Ballyboden and Crokes over to Parnell Park. The likes of that could be played in the Spawell. We'd have a small viewing area like Abbotstown."
The hunt for the successor to Ger Cunningham as Dublin hurling manager will pick up pace in the coming weeks with Shanley insisting the appointment was vital for the future of hurling in the county.

"We can't afford to be putting it on the long finger with the hurling. The weeding out has been done. There's a lot of new blood there," he added. "We've won a few Leinster titles in minor and U-21 lately so as far as I'm concerned the hurlers are there, it's a matter of blending them together and getting over the line."

Bonniedog

Good to see the stadium idea has been dropped. Not seen one positive reaction to it.

Prop Joe

Bonniedog wrote: »

Good to see the stadium idea has been dropped. Not seen one positive reaction to it.

I for one am delighted Dublin are not pursuing this,It's a waste of Money with Croker up the road,But now Croker should be considered Dublin's home venue going forward.

Bonniedog

You would have to know the geography of Dublin to realise that a stadium in Spawell would have been white elephant. Good to see wiser counsels prevailed.

Parnell is perfect for county club and gets big crowds for the Dublin championship. Easily accessible by car or public transport from all parts of the city. Should also be where hurlers play all their home games.

Fair enough point about Croke Park as home for the footballers. They play most of their games there. And have done except for period between late 90s and early 2000s when Parnell stopped being able to cater for average Dublin league games which are over 20,000.

Dyr

Bonniedog wrote: »

Parnell is perfect for county club and gets big crowds for the Dublin championship. Easily accessible by car or public transport from all parts of the city. Should also be where hurlers play all their home games.
.

It can be a pain in the hole to get to by bus

Bonniedog

Not as bad as Spawell surely? Don't think there is even a bus route that goes near it.

Anyway, we can use the money to bribe refs and clone Le Bron James as centre half forward.

nice_guy80

so Dublin just piggyback on Croke Park?

salmocab

Bonniedog wrote: »

Not as bad as Spawell surely? Don't think there is even a bus route that goes near it.

think the 150 goes within about 200 yards of the gate

BonnieSituation

Absolute rage. Getting to Doneycarney for us South- and Westsiders is a ballache most of the time.

blue note

I had to laugh when I read the article. He describes getting ballyboden and crokes to play in Parnell as ridiculous. It's 32 minutes from ballyboden and 35 from crokes on Google maps. Hardly a ridiculous journey!

The journeys teams have to make in some other counties are far greater, but not ridiculous. They're just what you have to do.

SteM

Bonniedog wrote: »

Not as bad as Spawell surely? Don't think there is even a bus route that goes near it.

.

The 65 stops right beside it.

BonnieSituation

blue note wrote: »

I had to laugh when I read the article. He describes getting ballyboden and crokes to play in Parnell as ridiculous. It's 32 minutes from ballyboden and 35 from crokes on Google maps. Hardly a ridiculous journey!

The journeys teams have to make in some other counties are far greater, but not ridiculous. They're just what you have to do.

You'd never get those times in reality, unless you are doing it at 5am.

blue note

BonnieSituation wrote:

You'd never get those times in reality, unless you are doing it at 5am.

I live in killester and train in drimnagh. The only time traffic is a real problem is after work monday to friday. But that said, I can leave for training at 6:30 and comfortably be there for 7:15.

In the case of boden and kilmacud, they're both near the m50. If traffic is bad use it and you'll be at parnell park in 45 minutes. That's the reality of it.

mayopanda84

Cause the M50 runs smoothly with no traffic issues all the time :getlost:

Dyr

Bonniedog wrote: »

Not as bad as Spawell surely? Don't think there is even a bus route that goes near it.

Anyway, we can use the money to bribe refs and clone Le Bron James as centre half forward.

Sure are'nt all the ref's half dub anyway yerra yerra

The spawell would be worse alright, the bus connects project might work out for parnell with those orbital routes