Pine Marten

Spent

Many Pinemartins about . Have seen plenty of them in the Midlands . I know they are protected species but just curious to know how much damage they are doing to released pheasant poults . Are Martins protected in the uk ?
In the last 2 or 3 years I've seen a lot .
During the silage cutting I've seen 3 in one feild while out fox shooting .
Would a pine Martin take fox Cubs ?

skallywag

I've plenty of experience with these lads, one of them climbed under the bonnet of my car some months back and munched through the coolant hose. He will get a nasty surprise the next time he comes back due to the electroshock sensors I subsequently installed.

No, I believe that a fox cub would be too big for a martin to take, unless it was a complete runt.

KE_MAN

Would love to see some Pine Martin relocated to the Pheonix Park. The Park is abundant with Grey Squirrel and no pest control programme in place to curb their population growth. Not a red squirrel in sight. I was amazed last weekend while at the Zoo the large amount of vermin outside in the park e.g. Grey Squirrel, Grey Crows, Magpies and rats. It is a disgrace.

Shaner82

Used to drive through the park every morning going to the work. That amount of magpies and grey crows is just unreal.

have2flushtwice

Maybe one or two could be relocated?
What effect would a pine Martin have on areas non target species?

KE_MAN

Hi

There should be no threat to other species with introduction of Pine Martin. If anything it should benefit other species populations.

J.R.

KE_MAN wrote: »

Hi

There should be no threat to other species with introduction of Pine Martin. If anything it should benefit other species populations.

Don't think the grey squirrels there would agree!!

..............not that it would be any harm to see the grey squirrel numbers there kept in check.

Gonehawking

Not seen one for a few years..until this evening when i caught one killing the wife's chickens..there just as bad as mink in my opinion killed 9 chickens and took none of them!!!!

Hotei

Gonehawking wrote: »

Not seen one for a few years..until this evening when i caught one killing the wife's chickens..there just as bad as mink in my opinion killed 9 chickens and took none of them!!!!

You caught it in the act, hence why it didn't take one. If you weren't about, it most likely would have taken one to cache, and then return for more. Simples.

Tikka391

One killed 100 pheasant poults in a pen in a north Meath club last summer. Big rise in the north east meath area.
They are being released in a wood popular with walkers.
I heard on local radio the man over the release project (can't remember the name) telling people to go and have a walk and see the beautiful pine Martin.

Hotei

Tikka391 wrote: »

One killed 100 pheasant poults in a pen in a north Meath club last summer. Big rise in the north east meath area.
They are being released in a wood popular with walkers.
I heard on local radio the man over the release project (can't remember the name) telling people to go and have a walk and see the beautiful pine Martin.

How did it get into the pen? If the pen was insufficiently secured, then maybe there may not have been any poult losses on that occasion. Poor gamekeeping at fault there, I suspect.

Grizzly 45

Wait until one or two of them move into someones attic..They will total a place in no time building their nests.

Half-cocked

Hotei wrote: »

How did it get into the pen? If the pen was insufficiently secured, then maybe there may not have been any poult losses on that occasion. Poor gamekeeping at fault there, I suspect.

That sounds right. A pen set up to be secure from foxes won't keep Pine Marten out. When they started showing up on our shoot we immediately marten-proofed the pen. Your electric fence needs an extra wire lower to the ground and extra wires up and around all pop holes (but if you have mink in the area you should have done this already). Plus no overhanging branches than a Marten could climb over the top of the fence. Plenty of Martens in the area and yet to have one get into the pen. Big bonus to having Martens is all the Grey Squirrels have buggered off. No more gnawing through the feeder lids.

Tikka391

Hotei wrote: »

How did it get into the pen? If the pen was insufficiently secured, then maybe there may not have been any poult losses on that occasion. Poor gamekeeping at fault there, I suspect.

Hey I'm only telling you what happend. It wasn't our club so i don't know the ins and outs

Hotei

Tikka391 wrote: »

Hey I'm only telling you what happend. It wasn't our club so i don't know the ins and outs

It was a rhetorical question. Chill out man!

blackpearl

Tikka391 wrote: »

One killed 100 pheasant poults in a pen in a north Meath club last summer. Big rise in the north east meath area.
They are being released in a wood popular with walkers.
I heard on local radio the man over the release project (can't remember the name) telling people to go and have a walk and see the beautiful pine Martin.

Did he not tell them to try and catch it and give it a pet,then they would see how beautuful it is,clowns like him should be put in jail ,because what he done should be classed as a crime against wildlife.

ligertigon

Nothing ever stopping someone releasing a ferret into a pheasant pen for 20 mins.

But jumping to conclusions about what predator did what without evidence is insane.

Tikka391

ligertigon wrote: »

Nothing ever stopping someone releasing a ferret into a pheasant pen for 20 mins.

But jumping to conclusions about what predator did what without evidence is insane.

There was proof. 100% proof.

Eddie B

The old green mesh over the top of pen's ain't worth a dalm these days, is it. The Pine Marten is no doubt, an amazing predator. He can take prey from the ground, and the tree's. He can climb, run at speed, and swim if needs be. It certainly is a beautiful animal, and where common, is probably number one pen raider we have.

But remember folks, the Pine Marten is very much protected in this country. That's the law, and so they can't be touched. It's up to us, to make our pen's predator proof. There are right and wrong ways to build a pen. Once built, it's so important to maintain pen's year after year. There's a lot of guy's out there, that either dont know how to construct a proper pen, or are to lazy to do it properly. That's just fact.

It's easy blame the Marten, Mink or whatever for the loss of birds, but the real blame has to fall on the individual, club etc.

richiedel123

Hotei wrote: »

You caught it in the act, hence why it didn't take one. If you weren't about, it most likely would have taken one to cache, and then return for more. Simples.

Wrong!!! Never seen them hunt like that. They kill everything and come back to feast when they get hungry

Gonehawking

Hotei wrote: »

You caught it in the act, hence why it didn't take one. If you weren't about, it most likely would have taken one to cache, and then return for more. Simples.

Really!!! would have cache it and come back to eat it later, maybe brought mrs martin back for a valentines meal lol….sorry back to reality, it had already killed 8 of the hens before i found it killing the ninth, the fact is they kill anything that moves, they are unbelievable predators and surprisingly strong for there size as well as being very destructive, I've seen them get into very well built pens, coups etc.

SILVAMAN

have2flushtwice wrote: »

Maybe one or two could be relocated?
What effect would a pine Martin have on areas non target species?

West Clare here Pine marten all over the place and plenty of red squirrels too. Supposedly the marten is too heavy to follow red to lighter branches and this is thought to be a reason the grey squirrel is not abundant on the west if at all here.

dodderangler

SILVAMAN wrote: »

West Clare here Pine marten all over the place and plenty of red squirrels too. Supposedly the marten is too heavy to follow red to lighter branches and this is thought to be a reason the grey squirrel is not abundant on the west if at all here.

Good reason to have em about then. Greys are a nightmare and have been on the red population. Problem with the martens then is if they get too abundant they'll make Shiite of a farmers poultry and a pheasant pen so good husbandry is a must.

thefisherbuy

dodderangler wrote: »

Good reason to have em about then. Greys are a nightmare and have been on the red population. Problem with the martens then is if they get too abundant they'll make Shiite of a farmers poultry and a pheasant pen so good husbandry is a must.

Not much around me pinemartins there's not much grey squirrels either, went to Dublin a few years back and the amount of them grey squirrels around the place especially in the zoo was ridiculous!!

dodderangler

thefisherbuy wrote: »

Not much around me pinemartins there's not much grey squirrels either, went to Dublin a few years back and the amount of them grey squirrels around the place especially in the zoo was ridiculous!!

I have them on my road in Tallaght. Numbers have gone way up and for some reason I've only one sparrowhawk around now. Wonder if the greys are raiding nests as they do with other birds.

blackpearl

had one in our area last year ,thank god for a lorry driver he left him like a door mat in the middle of the road.

blackpearl

dodderangler wrote: »

I have them on my road in Tallaght. Numbers have gone way up and for some reason I've only one sparrowhawk around now. Wonder if the greys are raiding nests as they do with other birds.

Pine martins are listed as a predator to sparrowhawks as well as barn owls,goss hawks ect,dont no if it attacks on the ground when hawk is on prey or raids nests for young birds.

Chiparus

Pinemartins kill for fun, http://www.raising-happy-chickens.com/pine-marten.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/pine-marten-killed-1437932-May2014/

Eddie B

Chiparus wrote: »

Pinemartins kill for fun, http://www.raising-happy-chickens.com/pine-marten.html

http://www.thejournal.ie/pine-marten-killed-1437932-May2014/

Pine Marten, are predators! The word FUN shouldn't even come into a discussion, thats more a human trait.

To be honest I didn't even read those articles.

All predators will do the same thing. It's just instinct. Not defending them by the way, just being realistice.

Cass

Eddie B wrote: »

Pine Marten, are predators! The word FUN shouldn't even come into a discussion, thats more a human trait.

Yup. Anthropomorphism.

To be honest I didn't even read those articles.

The Journal!!. Nuff said.


MOD NOTE

Lads and ladies i will say this much, with the Mod hat on.. The Pine Marten, regardless of your personal opinion, is a protected species and as such any discussion about killing them (however subtle you think you're being) is illegal and as illegal discussion is not allowed on the forum it will be removed.


On a personal note we do ourselves no favours by discussing such things. It's only a very small minority that believe they should be culled and even less so that think they should be eradicated. They serve a function and much like the buzzard talk you cannot attribute all drops in game and livestock numbers to natural predators. Even if they take some it's part and parcel of the sport we're in.

As Eddie B said improve and maintain any pens and predator controls you have in place and it won't happen or at the very least will be reduced to much more manageable/tolerable levels.

Chiparus

Eddie B wrote: »

Pine Marten, are predators! The word FUN shouldn't even come into a discussion, thats more a human trait.

To be honest I didn't even read those articles.

All predators will do the same thing. It's just instinct. Not defending them by the way, just being realistice.

My post was in response to a now deleted post -

But this is what the article states:
The killer who kills for fun.
It's sometimes hard to tell what's responsible when a predator strikes, but most do leave tell-tale signs. A fox, for example, will generally leave a pile of feathers but no body. The chicken becomes dinner for adults and cubs alike.

A marten, and any other member of the stoat family including weasels, mink and the raccoon, tends not to kill for food but for fun. More often than not you'll find the carcass of the chicken still in the run.

It's one of the things that makes these kills so hard to take - having any chicken killed is not easy to deal with, but at least when they're taken by a fox you can rationalise that it's part of the food chain.

With a marten that's not possible because usually, it isn't.

Eddie B

Chiparus wrote: »

My post was in response to a now deleted post -

But this is what the article states:
The killer who kills for fun.
It's sometimes hard to tell what's responsible when a predator strikes, but most do leave tell-tale signs. A fox, for example, will generally leave a pile of feathers but no body. The chicken becomes dinner for adults and cubs alike.

A marten, and any other member of the stoat family including weasels, mink and the raccoon, tends not to kill for food but for fun. More often than not you'll find the carcass of the chicken still in the run.

It's one of the things that makes these kills so hard to take - having any chicken killed is not easy to deal with, but at least when they're taken by a fox you can rationalise that it's part of the food chain.

With a marten that's not possible because usually, it isn't.

Well I've seen examples, and im sure others have too, of where a fox killed a pen of birds, and maybe brought none, or one or two with him, other times, brought the lot. Also, much easier for a fox to carry birds to a den/stash. How long would it take a Pine Marten to do the same, especially if he got through the roof.

That article is a little biased towards mustilids, and I've seen other articles depicting Pine Marten in Ireland being mainly vegetarian.:rolleyes:

There is a lot of crap wrote in the media, online etc. Just be careful not to believe everything you read.

Chiparus

Eddie B wrote: »

Well I've seen examples, and im sure others have too, of where a fox killed a pen of birds, and maybe brought none, or one or two with him, other times, brought the lot. Also, much easier for a fox to carry birds to a den/stash. How long would it take a Pine Marten to do the same, especially if he got through the roof.

That article is a little biased towards mustilids, and I've seen other articles depicting Pine Marten in Ireland being mainly vegetarian.:rolleyes:

There is a lot of crap wrote in the media, online etc. Just be careful not to believe everything you read.

Very true.

We lost a lout of poults on our shoot, big debate as to the culprit - mink or pine martin,
Is there any way to tell?

Eddie B

Chiparus wrote: »

Very true.

We lost a lout of poults on our shoot, big debate as to the culprit - mink or pine martin,
Is there any way to tell?

Not really, unless there are tracks left. A few months back a guy on a UK Forum stuck up a picture of some tracks in the mud outside his pen. There was lots of different tracks. Anyway he asked "what the tracks were from?"

Turns out, there was tracks from dog, cat, and fox on that photo. He never saw anything at the pen at any time, and was surprised to find it so busy there. Just goes to show.

Only other thing I can say is mink like to travel banks of streams, and even little drains, so if there is one close by, it might lean a little towards mink. Saying that, a Pine Marten will travel a stream/river bank just the same.

SILVAMAN

Chiparus wrote: »

Very true.

We lost a lout of poults on our shoot, big debate as to the culprit - mink or pine martin,
Is there any way to tell?

Pine martin is a goddamned bastard for killing poultry. If he gets in he will bite and slaughter everything in sight.
Having said that, if you seal all entry points to the bird shed, there should be no problem Not too much of a price for peace of mind.

blackpearl

He would probley tip his hat to a family of wild pheasants and wish them good morning.

Brian?

blackpearl wrote: »

Did he not tell them to try and catch it and give it a pet,then they would see how beautuful it is,clowns like him should be put in jail ,because what he done should be classed as a crime against wildlife.

Why a crime against wild life? Just curious.

I think it's wonderful to see a native species that was close to extinction flourish. It's not the same as an invasive species wreaking havoc.

Shouldn't hunters appreciate how good a predator the Pine Marten is. They are phenomenal creatures.

Cass

Brian? wrote: »

Shouldn't hunters appreciate how good a predator the Pine Marten is. .

Without trying to be pedantic it's not all hunters.

The predominant attitude, on the thread at least, is while they may cause some damage they are not classed as threat to be eliminated.

Brian?

Cass wrote: »

Without trying to be pedantic it's not all hunters.

The predominant attitude, on the thread at least, is while they may cause some damage they are not classed as threat to be eliminated.

Absolutely, I can see most posters here have no problem with them. I was just surprised anyone would.

I don't currently hunt, I have in the past. I think hunting actually gave me a better appreciation for nature than most. I have no problem with people hunting plentiful game, it's generally delicious . But predators have been hunted to extinction or close to it in Ireland, I think it's great to see them flourish again.

I also love many of the weasel family, even the smallest weasel is a brilliant hunter.

blackpearl

Brian? wrote: »

Absolutely, I can see most posters here have no problem with them. I was just surprised anyone would.

I don't currently hunt, I have in the past. I think hunting actually gave me a better appreciation for nature than most. I have no problem with people hunting plentiful game, it's generally delicious . But predators have been hunted to extinction or close to it in Ireland, I think it's great to see them flourish again.

I also love many of the weasel family, even the smallest weasel is a brilliant hunter.

Lets put the wolves and the bears out when we are at it,are they not part of the native pool,and then we can all go down to the woods for a picnic.

Eddie B

Brian? wrote: »

Absolutely, I can see most posters here have no problem with them. I was just surprised anyone would.

I don't currently hunt, I have in the past. I think hunting actually gave me a better appreciation for nature than most. I have no problem with people hunting plentiful game, it's generally delicious . But predators have been hunted to extinction or close to it in Ireland, I think it's great to see them flourish again.

I also love many of the weasel family, even the smallest weasel is a brilliant hunter.

I think that loss of habitat had a big part to play with the decline in Pine Marten numbers. More so than hunting did. They are protected in this country a long time now, and only recently making a comeback due to reforestation.

Just look at the mink here, being trapped all over the country by gun clubs and fishing clubs etc. Thousands caught each year and no shortage of them at all. The government are actually trying to eradicate them, and cant even get close to it. Look at all the fox's killed during the fur trade. Half the country was after them, and they never even came close to extinction.

Brian?

blackpearl wrote: »

Lets put the wolves and the bears out when we are at it,are they not part of the native pool,and then we can all go down to the woods for a picnic.

No need to be facetious. Pine martens are no threat to people. Why do you them gone?

Brian?

Eddie B wrote: »

I think that loss of habitat had a big part to play with the decline in Pine Marten numbers. More so than hunting did. They are protected in this country a long time now, and only recently making a comeback due to reforestation.

Just look at the mink here, being trapped all over the country by gun clubs and fishing clubs etc. Thousands caught each year and no shortage of them at all. The government are actually trying to eradicate them, and cant even get close to it. Look at all the fox's killed during the fur trade. Half the country was after them, and they never even came close to extinction.

You're right of course. Destruction of habitat played a part. But hunting didn't help.

Can anyone explain why some people would like to see them gone?

Eddie B

Brian? wrote: »

You're right of course. Destruction of habitat played a part. But hunting didn't help.

Can anyone explain why some people would like to see them gone?

Well I suppose the farmer/ chicken keeper would be more than just a little peed off if a Pine Marten killed their hens/ducks. Picture a little kid going out one morning to feed the chickens and collect some eggs, only to be met with a bloody mess. That kid would be very distraught after such experience. Its a hard thing to witness even for an adult.

Same goes for people rearing game. They put in a lot of work, only for a predator to wipe it all out over night. These sort of incidents can leave a bad taste in the mouth, to say the least.

Of course the finger of blame, is pointed in the wrong direction. It's not the Pine Martens fault of course, when such incidents happen.

I said this before, and I'll say it again. There ain't much difference between a Mink and a Marten. One is an evasive species, and the other, a protected one. One is seen as the devil itself, and the other a beautiful native predator. I respect them both, but also know what their capable of.

Brian?

Eddie B wrote: »

Well I suppose the farmer/ chicken keeper would be more than just a little peed off if a Pine Marten killed their hens/ducks. Picture a little kid going out one morning to feed the chickens and collect some eggs, only to be met with a bloody mess. That kid would be very distraught after such experience. Its a hard thing to witness even for an adult.

Same goes for people rearing game. They put in a lot of work, only for a predator to wipe it all out over night. These sort of incidents can leave a bad taste in the mouth, to say the least.

Of course the finger of blame, is pointed in the wrong direction. It's not the Pine Martens fault of course, when such incidents happen.

I said this before, and I'll say it again. There ain't much difference between a Mink and a Marten. One is an evasive species, and the other, a protected one. One is seen as the devil itself, and the other a beautiful native predator. I respect them both, but also know what their capable of.

I understand why farmers fear them. I understand why people raising game fear them. But surely they should look towards keeping their animals safe instead of eliminating the predators.

Pine martens are beautiful animals. We'll capable of destroying an entire flock due to their nature. But no one is more capable of destruction than people.

blackpearl

Is this a hunting forum ?,because theirs people comming on here that dont hunt anymore and people who started the thread that are not hunters what next ,i am on american hunting forums and none of this do gooder bull...t would be put up with,and hunters have the right to voice their opion if they hate the sight of pinemartins or buzzards the same as hunters have the right to defend them,but animal lovers comming on here and spouting about pinemartins been a lovely animals come on.

Eddie B

Brian? wrote: »

I understand why farmers fear them. I understand why people raising game fear them. But surely they should look towards keeping their animals safe instead of eliminating the predators.

Pine martens are beautiful animals. We'll capable of destroying an entire flock due to their nature. But no one is more capable of destruction than people.

Yes totally agree with you, but not everyone is clued up on nature. Mightn't be clued up on securing a pen to make it predator proof either.

It's a bit like a neughbours dog pooing on your lawn, or cat killing birds at the feeder you put out for them during the winter. Not the animals fault, but you can't help but be peed off by their actions.

Woodville56

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Wait until one or two of them move into someones attic..They will total a place in no time building their nests.

I've had then in the attic - raised their kits there, then left - beautiful animals

Brian?

blackpearl wrote: »

Is this a hunting forum ?,because theirs people comming on here that dont hunt anymore and people who started the thread that are not hunters what next ,i am on american hunting forums and none of this do gooder bull...t would be put up with,and hunters have the right to voice their opion if they hate the sight of pinemartins or buzzards the same as hunters have the right to defend them,but animal lovers comming on here and spouting about pinemartins been a lovely animals come on.

Can't I express my opinion as well? I've hunted deer, rabbit and various birds. I've also done plenty of fishing. I don't currently hunt as I don't have the time or the money to invest in equipment. Is my opinion less valid than yours?

I'm asking why you hate the sight of them. You haven't answered that at all. Is it because they reduce the number of pheasant, woodcock etc to hunt?

extremetaz

Eddie B wrote: »

Pine Marten, are predators! The word FUN shouldn't even come into a discussion, thats more a human trait.

Cass wrote: »

Yup. Anthropomorphism.

With the greatest of respect gents, and with my hunter hat firmly in place, and with full awareness that anthropomorphic association is also an issue that we face, the above is simply not true - evidence of play is readily evident in most young animals, and action undertaken for pleasure/perceived reward is a mainstay across mammalian life, not to mention the underpinning reason why many animals may be trained or learn behaviours which they perceive to be to their benefit.

Do birds have the capacity for fun?
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982214011403

Animal pleasure and its moral significance
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0168159109000483

An academic life: researching and teaching animal behaviour
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0003347214001213

Don't know if you'll be able to access those links, I'm inside the college and that provides certain privilages in that regard, but the above are all peer reviewed papers from the journals of Current biology, Applied animal behaviour science, and Animal behaviour respectively. The point of animal cognisance is contentious, but more and more, it is becoming understood to be 'a thing' as it were, and there are MANY more publications to the point from similar caliber journals.

Sure isn't it that appreciation of cognisance which drives us as hunters to deliver a clean kill? Is suffering not also a point of same "anthropomorphic" projection?

Brian? wrote: »

Shouldn't hunters appreciate how good a predator the Pine Marten is. They are phenomenal creatures.

That they are - incredibly effective.

Brian? wrote: »

I understand why farmers fear them. I understand why people raising game fear them. But surely they should look towards keeping their animals safe instead of eliminating the predators.

Whilst that may seem obvious, the truth is that control of predators has long been the go-to method for stock preservation - what you're talking about right there is, accordingly, highly contentious. That's not to say that you're wrong, the reason for the 'control of predators' method however is that historically, it's been an effective, maintainable, relatively cheap means of dealing with the problem. It is not however, a symbiotic one, and on that point I'm in full agreement with you - attitudes need to change. Hunting should always be done with a mindset towards conservation, not eradication, as mentioned elsewhere in the thread.

Brian? wrote: »

Pine martens are beautiful animals. We'll capable of destroying an entire flock due to their nature. But no one is more capable of destruction than people.

Indeed.

Eddie B wrote: »

It's a bit like a neughbours dog pooing on your lawn, or cat killing birds at the feeder you put out for them during the winter. Not the animals fault, but you can't help but be peed off by their actions.

The bit in bold specifically - you can't blame an animal for its nature. F*ck knows we've plenty of bad in our own, but the thing is that we have the ability to modify ours if we choose to do so - for better or worse, wildlife does not.

Eddie B

extremetaz wrote: »

With the greatest of respect gents, and with my hunter hat firmly in place, and with full awareness that anthropomorphic association is also a issue that we face, the above is simply not true - evidence of play is readily evident in most young animals, and action undertaken for pleasure/perceived reward is a mainstay across mammalian life, not to mention the underpinning reason why many animals may be trained or learn behaviours which they perceive to be to their benefit.

OK fair point, but I think using the word fun in this instance is a bit much. Does a fox etc, kill a pen full of chickens for fun, or for hunger? Is it a predatory instinct to keep killing, or is it just for the fun of it, with no intentions of actually eating what it's killed?

Obviously a predator gets some rush of excitement whilst killing, but can this be described as fun? Personally I don't think so.