Budget 2017

TheDoc · 13-10-2016 10:19am

legocrazy505 wrote: »

It seems there is a crowd here who just want to keep going "but why don't you..." maybe they can't? Ever thought of that?

It's typical for people who themselves have a unique or special cirumstance, to totally misunderstand that to be the norm for everyone else.

Like that poster following up his move out comment with " just rent a room in a house with someone else".

So clearly the OP is a single person, which is a special circumstance, and doesn't constitute anywhere near the norm or the median for what is considered an average household in the country.

I absolutely love posters like that. I'm pretty sure he/she even mentioned "special circumstance" without realising they themselves, are the special circumstance.

Hold on till I move my family into a room in a shared house hahahah

Although seriously jealous. If I was single now, be absolutely lapping it up

TheDoc · 13-10-2016 10:22am

lawlolawl wrote: »

Well that career must be pretty **** if it doesn't provide enough money to live in overpriced, ****ty Dublin.

Jobs are for making the most money possible with the least effort and getting the **** out as early as possible to enjoy your real life.

Again, a wonderful disconnect from what the rest of us consider reality.

Again I'd advise taking your own scenario, which is likely extremely edge case and unique, and expecting others to apply the same.

But what I will say, as deeply rooted in your dribble is a point. I've discussed and looked with my partner at some towns and locations outside of Dublin. More and more job offers coming to me are remote work. They carry the same salary and benefits, but with the perk of it being entirely remote. so I may be able to benefit from moving to a different county while maintaining my expected income. That's not an option for everyone, but something I'm very much considering should the Central Bank not revise their caps and restrictions

TheDoc · 13-10-2016 10:24am

Harvey Normal wrote: »

Yeh. or people who used to live in Dublin when it was cheaper. I'm not a renter but my sister is. To keep a family going in the rental sector on <50k is nigh impossible. And fraught with worry about next year's rent.

It's possible, I'm doing it for two years now (since my first daughter came on the scene).

But best we don't go on too much about it, or some people will come in telling me how I'm mismanaging my finances, because im so clearly a high earner (I'm in the high 40's for transparency)

TheDoc · 13-10-2016 10:31am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

the tax rebate will do little or nothing to help those currently stuck in hotels, particularly in the short term. they need houses now. the government needs to get back into the building industry and fast

How did these people end up in hotels?
How did these people lose their houses?
How did these people come to the conclusion they could buy a house?

I for one won't be complaining if the Government for once, put some actual thought and process into how they are going to deal with social housing, instead of just smashing them out all over the place.

I've a uniquer then most outlook on the housing issue. But in my situation, the CB rules struck out my prospects of home ownership overnight, thanks to what was essentially reckless buyers that came before me. So I unfortunately, find **** all sympathy for those who find themselves in emergency accomodation.

on a human level, and as a parent, of course I do have symapthy and it must be tough. But I am conflicted as these families and people that I'll read in a paper, or hear on the radio, or see on TV, are the cause of why I'm burning through money in a wild west rental market, and have no home ownership prospects.

Mr. teddywinkles · 13-10-2016 10:36am

legocrazy505 wrote: »

I don't see sufficient housing around the place, do you?

Handing things to the private sector is a disaster, doesn't matter if they are more efficient because it's generally at the expense of a proper service. Look at Eir as a perfect example of this.

Big difference. Public is called public for a reason. Not for profit no matter how efficient or inefficient it is. Private is there for profit margins.

TheDoc · 13-10-2016 11:02am

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Big difference. Public is called public for a reason. Not for profit no matter how efficient or inefficient it is. Private is there for profit margins.

And a big point is that to achieve those margins, private sectors use more initiative and creativity, and ambition, to drive down costs while garnishing profits.

The profits can come in various ways, you might have a product that like Apple that has some vanity/hype/consumer loyalty to it, and sets itself as a prized commodity, as opposed to Android that drives their profits by marketshare and saturation.

But at the core of any method of profitability is efficiency, driving down costs, using talented people and staff as a resource, and constantly evolving and analysing ones own process' and productivity.

These are the things that need to translate into the public sector, that is all too static, lazy(from an org point of view) and full of slack. As there is no pressure to strive towards KPI's or profitability, there is no real pressure or onus to improve, and its mostly just reacting to some PR disaster, or trying to "look" like something is being done.

I've really no doubt that the Health service, and administration mess here, has been provided a nortical **** tonne of solutions from consultants and private contractors, but the problem is a total lack of willingness to change and implement, coupled with the Union strangle that stops any public service from truely initiating change

DeadlyByDesign · 13-10-2016 11:36am

So for me I am having my first child in May next year (yay all planned and delighted). My partner and I are also in full time employment saving for our first house, trying to put 1k away between us every month. What is absolutely going to scupper us is child care/creche costs for when my wife goes back to work.

So the creches/childcare can cost anywhere upwards of 800k...per month in Dublin. So our 1k savings per month is going to be a tough ask (between the 2 of us we are on 80k) a year. As well as that our rent is €1250 p/m and we have the usual expenses of phone, tv, electricity, gas etc.

So I was hoping that the new subsidy would be a bit better with the budget. Basically it will work out at 900 euro a year which is about 20 quid a month.....wow thanks. So right now we are at a loss as to how to save for a deposit for a decent home. Don't get me wrong it can be done but I know I am going to have to sit my wife down and say we may have to aim for commuting distance as finding a decent house in Dublin at a decent price is crazy at the moment.

The only other option is to leave Ireland and go to Germany (where my wife is originally from), they have free child care and a decent renters market. Right now it may be a real option that we are putting on the table

Cina · 13-10-2016 11:45am

TheDoc wrote: »

What a wonderful disconnect from the world the rest of us live in.

I don't think I'm disconnected at all, actually. I've lived in Dublin for a decade. Ashtown, Blanchardstown, Stillorgan, Rathmines. I've never paid more than €600 a month for rent. I realise that's quite low and people tend to pay more for rooms in houses now, but I still don't know even one person up here who pays more than €800 - and that's including all the people I know who live over at Silicon Docks, arguably the most expensive area of Dublin.

If you're paying €1,400 rent for your own room in a house then you're doing something wrong, or you have a great place cause you can afford it. If it's not the latter then move the hell out and get somewhere more affordable, because as expensive as Dublin is to rent now, it's still a lot more affordable than €1,400 a month.

A person can't complain that they can't get by cause of their rent if they're paying enormous amounts that they don't need to.

TheDoc · 13-10-2016 11:57am

Cina wrote: »

I don't think I'm disconnected at all, actually. I've lived in Dublin for a decade. Ashtown, Blanchardstown, Stillorgan, Rathmines. I've never paid more than €600 a month for rent. I realise that's quite low and people tend to pay more for rooms in houses now, but I still don't know even one person up here who pays more than €800 - and that's including all the people I know who live over at Silicon Docks, arguably the most expensive area of Dublin.

If you're paying €1,400 rent for your own room in a house then you're doing something wrong, or you have a great place cause you can afford it. If it's not the latter then move the hell out and get somewhere more affordable, because as expensive as Dublin is to rent now, it's still a lot more affordable than €1,400 a month.

A person can't complain that they can't get by cause of their rent if they're paying enormous amounts that they don't need to.

No one is saying they are paying €1400 for a room, thats clearly mental.

I assume the posters talking about rent, like me, and when quoting that rent, are talking about a house.

so for example when I'm looking for rented accommodation its for a family of four, which means a house, and likely in the regions of €1250-1400.

And I just lucked out a bit with where I am at the moment.

I'm living in Dublin all my life, and the last few years have turned into the wild west. When it was just me and the misses, we were paying €700 for a two bed apartment in Donabate, was perfect to our needs. But wasn't family suitable when we learned of our first arrival

Of course there is edge cases and lucky cases, but you cannot, simply cannot paint your experience of getting houses or apartments for yourself at €600 a month, or even people you know getting them for €800 a month, as that is clearly at odds with the general happenings of everyone else.

I got a free iphone this month from work, I'm not telling everyone that their doing it wrong paying money for iphones....

TheDoc · 13-10-2016 12:03pm

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

So for me I am having my first child in May next year (yay all planned and delighted). My partner and I are also in full time employment saving for our first house, trying to put 1k away between us every month. What is absolutely going to scupper us is child care/creche costs for when my wife goes back to work.

So the creches/childcare can cost anywhere upwards of 800k...per month in Dublin. So our 1k savings per month is going to be a tough ask (between the 2 of us we are on 80k) a year. As well as that our rent is €1250 p/m and we have the usual expenses of phone, tv, electricity, gas etc.

So I was hoping that the new subsidy would be a bit better with the budget. Basically it will work out at 900 euro a year which is about 20 quid a month.....wow thanks. So right now we are at a loss as to how to save for a deposit for a decent home. Don't get me wrong it can be done but I know I am going to have to sit my wife down and say we may have to aim for commuting distance as finding a decent house in Dublin at a decent price is crazy at the moment.

The only other option is to leave Ireland and go to Germany (where my wife is originally from), they have free child care and a decent renters market. Right now it may be a real option that we are putting on the table

Feel you buddy. Hence why I outlined above my GF decided to stay at home.

I even find its things like that single people and the likes just totally forget about. I had absolutely no idea about childcare costs until we knew we were expecting, and I was absolutely amazed when we started looking. I really didn't envisage a situation where I'd be the sole earner in the house, but that's literally the only way it can work.

The further kicker for me is that it doesn't leave any scope for savings or putting a few quid aside.

I'd expect that grant to also be tied into some form of government agency or credited stuff. The amount of people that seem to be arranging cash in hand deals and the likes for their childcare costs is incredible, and I can see why parents in cases feel very little option. Especially where both parties have careers they care about or are lucrative and not really ideal for lengthy leaves of absence.

I know from my looking around the average was 1k per child for a recognised legit childcare minder that attended our house, or in a designated location. Considering we would be talking about a baby after the initial maternity leave, it made more sense to have something located in our house.

There is also the options of, and god I even know friends parents who did this back in the day, where you might take in a few kids to mind.

In the end the only thing that was reasonable to us financially was having a foreign nanny type situation in our house, and while I'd no issue with people persay, I didn't feel comfortable with what was a clearly unethical, illegal practice and for the marginal savings we both felt more comfortable with my partner raising and minding our daughter.

Cina · 13-10-2016 12:10pm

TheDoc wrote: »

No one is saying they are paying €1400 for a room, thats clearly mental.

I assume the posters talking about rent, like me, and when quoting that rent, are talking about a house.

so for example when I'm looking for rented accommodation its for a family of four, which means a house, and likely in the regions of €1250-1400.

And I just lucked out a bit with where I am at the moment.

I'm living in Dublin all my life, and the last few years have turned into the wild west. When it was just me and the misses, we were paying €700 for a two bed apartment in Donabate, was perfect to our needs. But wasn't family suitable when we learned of our first arrival

Of course there is edge cases and lucky cases, but you cannot, simply cannot paint your experience of getting houses or apartments for yourself at €600 a month, or even people you know getting them for €800 a month, as that is clearly at odds with the general happenings of everyone else.

I got a free iphone this month from work, I'm not telling everyone that their doing it wrong paying money for iphones....

Look, the rental market is nuts in Dublin right now, nobody will deny that. But if he's in a house you'd assume he has a partner, correct? Maybe the partner isn't working, so it could be a special circumstance, but seriously, what regular circumstance should someone be paying €1,400 by themselves for somewhere? There are also places cheaper than that outside of the city, it may not be as convenient but sometimes convenience needs to be sacrificed for stability of your finances.

I also don't believe it's at odds with everyone else. Check the cost of 1 bed apartments and 2 bed apartments on daft. €700 - €900 is about the average at the moment.

pilly · 13-10-2016 12:19pm

Cina wrote: »

Look, the rental market is nuts in Dublin right now, nobody will deny that. But if he's in a house you'd assume he has a partner, correct? Maybe the partner isn't working, so it could be a special circumstance, but seriously, what regular circumstance should someone be paying €1,400 by themselves for somewhere? There are also places cheaper than that outside of the city, it may not be as convenient but sometimes convenience needs to be sacrificed for stability of your finances.

I also don't believe it's at odds with everyone else. Check the cost of 1 bed apartments and 2 bed apartments on daft. €700 - €900 is about the average at the moment.

€700-900 Cina?? I don't believe you're living in Dublin.

TheDoc · 13-10-2016 12:27pm

Cina wrote: »

Look, the rental market is nuts in Dublin right now, nobody will deny that. But if he's in a house you'd assume he has a partner, correct? Maybe the partner isn't working, so it could be a special circumstance, but seriously, what regular circumstance should someone be paying €1,400 by themselves for somewhere? There are also places cheaper than that outside of the city, it may not be as convenient but sometimes convenience needs to be sacrificed for stability of your finances.

I also don't believe it's at odds with everyone else. Check the cost of 1 bed apartments and 2 bed apartments on daft. €700 - €900 is about the average at the moment.

Ok so now I see what your getting at. You are taking a sole income household as being a special circumstance.

So that would be me. But I know also, that it's a lot more common then you think.

Again your saying someone paying €1400 by themselves for somewhere. your not reading the posts, the other posters, along with me, have families, are expecting families. FAMILIES. We are not single people.

If I was single I'd have a rake load of options with friends or work colleagues to get rooms for €200-400 a month and have a rake of disposible income left. Jesus, I could even keep my €1000 a month house and be grand. But I've another adult who depends on me, a two week old baby, and a two year old.

It's the frequent disconnect from single people and family people. And it's fine, but at some point you need to accept its not as simple as just upping my family, ****ing off somewhere cheaper and its fine.

I live where I live, because its close to her parents and family and friends. With her decision to stay at home and care for our children ,I felt it prudent we lived in an area where she didn't feel isolated and could do simple things like go for a walk with her sister and the kids, or pop around to her mothers. Simple in theory, but allows her to avoid isolation, and avoid things like post natal depression and the likes.

Of course it would be BRILLIANT if I could say move to Laois, get a house for the family at €700-800 a month. That few hundred more in the pocket each month would be BRILLIANT. It could be a dinner out, a treat here or there, or even allow us start to build on our savings to eventually buy.

But would that €200-300 be worth isolating my family and my girlfriend, who's made a big enough sacrifice as is?

Everything isn't as simple as a number.

But as I said before should the Central Bank regs continue as is, I will have to look at relocating my family to a region where we could buy a house and own it, and I'm extremely lucky in that my job and sector, I can avail of remote work while retaining a good salary. Thats not available for everyone making it even tougher.

Similar to the other poster who is being a bit flippant about situations being single. I had a good few lucrative job offers in the last two months, and while to a single person it was a no brainer, more money, more income, cha-ching, I'd to make a decision if it was worth the risk leaving somewhere I'm valued, integral and comfortable in my work, to an entirely new role, with a new baby on the arrival.

Cina · 13-10-2016 12:27pm

pilly wrote: »

€700-900 Cina?? I don't believe you're living in Dublin.

Sorry, that was phrased badly.

What I meant was 2 people in a 1 bed, or 2/3 in a 2 bed, not the actual apartments!

TheDoc · 13-10-2016 12:29pm

pilly wrote: »

€700-900 Cina?? I don't believe you're living in Dublin.

He's actually probably not wrong, but the point is there is different requirements to a single person, a couple and a family.

The posters posting about rent are clearly family based, and the two lads have come in with "ah yous are doing it wrong" when they are in a totally different market and scenario.

The first apartment me and my GF had was €700 and we could still be there now paying that. But it had no heating, literally nothing bar a fireplace. It was an icebox in the winter and mould would develop in the windows. It was fine for us starting out on the ladder, but was not suitable for children what so ever.

Cina · 13-10-2016 12:34pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Ok so now I see what your getting at. You are taking a sole income household as being a special circumstance.

So that would be me. But I know also, that it's a lot more common then you think.

Again your saying someone paying €1400 by themselves for somewhere. your not reading the posts, the other posters, along with me, have families, are expecting families. FAMILIES. We are not single people.

If I was single I'd have a rake load of options with friends or work colleagues to get rooms for €200-400 a month and have a rake of disposible income left. Jesus, I could even keep my €1000 a month house and be grand. But I've another adult who depends on me, a two week old baby, and a two year old.

It's the frequent disconnect from single people and family people. And it's fine, but at some point you need to accept its not as simple as just upping my family, ****ing off somewhere cheaper and its fine.

I live where I live, because its close to her parents and family and friends. With her decision to stay at home and care for our children ,I felt it prudent we lived in an area where she didn't feel isolated and could do simple things like go for a walk with her sister and the kids, or pop around to her mothers. Simple in theory, but allows her to avoid isolation, and avoid things like post natal depression and the likes.

Of course it would be BRILLIANT if I could say move to Laois, get a house for the family at €700-800 a month. That few hundred more in the pocket each month would be BRILLIANT. It could be a dinner out, a treat here or there, or even allow us start to build on our savings to eventually buy.

But would that €200-300 be worth isolating my family and my girlfriend, who's made a big enough sacrifice as is?

Everything isn't as simple as a number.

But as I said before should the Central Bank regs continue as is, I will have to look at relocating my family to a region where we could buy a house and own it, and I'm extremely lucky in that my job and sector, I can avail of remote work while retaining a good salary. Thats not available for everyone making it even tougher.

Similar to the other poster who is being a bit flippant about situations being single. I had a good few lucrative job offers in the last two months, and while to a single person it was a no brainer, more money, more income, cha-ching, I'd to make a decision if it was worth the risk leaving somewhere I'm valued, integral and comfortable in my work, to an entirely new role, with a new baby on the arrival.

I'm not claiming to know the ins and outs of families though, this whole argument on rent stemmed from someone saying that the cost of living in Dublin is absurd and a 33,800 salary isn't enough, despite admitting they were single and didn't have kids. My point was that that's total bullsh*t and if that is your circumstance you should be living life very comfortably. I lived on less than that for 4-5 years and had no problems saving money and going on holidays etc.

Admittedly I don't know the circumstance of the poster on €1,400 and probably jumped the gun. Maybe they are a lone parent with kids or their spouse can't work for whatever reason, but I do think that's a special circumstance i.e. not common in Dublin.

Throughout this thread people have constantly complained that the cost of living in Ireland is absurd despite it being less than the other countries in the highest bracket of GDP and HDI, that our tax system is a joke, despite again, it being less than most of those countries, and that our capital is stupidly expensive despite it arguably being cheaper than most of the other European capitals and large cities. I think those people need to go live in London and then come back and complain about Dublin.

DeadlyByDesign · 13-10-2016 12:47pm

TheDoc wrote: »

Feel you buddy. Hence why I outlined above my GF decided to stay at home.

I even find its things like that single people and the likes just totally forget about. I had absolutely no idea about childcare costs until we knew we were expecting, and I was absolutely amazed when we started looking. I really didn't envisage a situation where I'd be the sole earner in the house, but that's literally the only way it can work.

The further kicker for me is that it doesn't leave any scope for savings or putting a few quid aside.

I'd expect that grant to also be tied into some form of government agency or credited stuff. The amount of people that seem to be arranging cash in hand deals and the likes for their childcare costs is incredible, and I can see why parents in cases feel very little option. Especially where both parties have careers they care about or are lucrative and not really ideal for lengthy leaves of absence.

I know from my looking around the average was 1k per child for a recognised legit childcare minder that attended our house, or in a designated location. Considering we would be talking about a baby after the initial maternity leave, it made more sense to have something located in our house.

There is also the options of, and god I even know friends parents who did this back in the day, where you might take in a few kids to mind.

In the end the only thing that was reasonable to us financially was having a foreign nanny type situation in our house, and while I'd no issue with people persay, I didn't feel comfortable with what was a clearly unethical, illegal practice and for the marginal savings we both felt more comfortable with my partner raising and minding our daughter.

It is a real issue. Even now I am getting knots in my stomach thinking about it as I don't want this to be the cause of my wife staying at home as she is very career motivated and I love that about her. We want a child and I do not see how this subsidy is meant to take the pressure off working out if the other party can go back to work after the initial maternity leave.

pilly · 13-10-2016 12:51pm

TheDoc wrote: »

He's actually probably not wrong, but the point is there is different requirements to a single person, a couple and a family.

The posters posting about rent are clearly family based, and the two lads have come in with "ah yous are doing it wrong" when they are in a totally different market and scenario.

The first apartment me and my GF had was €700 and we could still be there now paying that. But it had no heating, literally nothing bar a fireplace. It was an icebox in the winter and mould would develop in the windows. It was fine for us starting out on the ladder, but was not suitable for children what so ever.

And I think you'll agree not good for long term living either. I mean as an older divorced person I could live for €600 per month in a bedsit with noise all around me all night and dark, dire surroundings but why should I when I work for a living and have done all my life.

awec · 13-10-2016 12:52pm

The subsidy isn't supposed to make owning a house more affordable. It's supposed to make it easier to gather up a deposit (directly aimed at those who can afford mortgages but are struggling with the huge deposits due to the very high rents, particularly in Dublin) and to make builders build more houses. That's it.

techdiver · 13-10-2016 2:35pm

DeadlyByDesign wrote: »

It is a real issue. Even now I am getting knots in my stomach thinking about it as I don't want this to be the cause of my wife staying at home as she is very career motivated and I love that about her. We want a child and I do not see how this subsidy is meant to take the pressure off working out if the other party can go back to work after the initial maternity leave.

This is the laughable thing. The country needs more people to have more children so as to plug the pensions gap time bomb that is fast approaching. We especially need the middle class to have more children as they are statistically the ones who will end up as net contributors to society and taxation. But the kicker is, that we have now engineered a society where it is borderline punitive to have children. My wife and I were in the same position after having our first child. We were living in a 1 bedroom in Dublin. Both earning good salaries, but still couldn't responsibly afford to buy in Dublin and the prospect of renting somewhere suitable was not affordable in the long run either.

We made a decision to leave Dublin. My wife has had to give up work as now that we have 2 children, working would not be worth it with childcare costs and commuting. Also, from a taxation point of view we are penalised as you cannot transfer all credits and standard rate cutoffs to your spouse. All of this puts obstacles in the way of middle class people having children and will have repercussions in years to come.

LegallyAbroad · 13-10-2016 2:39pm

techdiver wrote: »

This is the laughable thing. The country needs more people to have more children so as to plug the pensions gap time bomb that is fast approaching. We especially need the middle class to have more children as they are statistically the ones who will end up as net contributors to society and taxation. But the kicker is, that we have now engineered a society where it is borderline punitive to have children. My wife and I were in the same position after having our first child. We were living in a 1 bedroom in Dublin. Both earning good salaries, but still couldn't responsibly afford to buy in Dublin and the prospect of renting somewhere suitable was not affordable in the long run either.

We made a decision to leave Dublin. My wife has had to give up work as now that we have 2 children, working would not be worth it with childcare costs and commuting. Also, from a taxation point of view we are penalised as you cannot transfer all credits and standard rate cutoffs to your spouse. All of this puts obstacles in the way of middle class people having children and will have repercussions in years to come.

How exactly do you square your statement with reality?

Ireland is in the midst of a full-blown population boom boasting the EU's top birth rate and second-lowest death rate.

There was 14.4 babies born per 1,000 residents in the State last year, easily eclipsing the EU average of 10.1.

http://www.independent.ie/life/family/mothers-babies/baby-boom-hits-ireland-as-we-top-the-european-birth-rate-31368622.html

legocrazy505 · 13-10-2016 2:41pm

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

How exactly do you square your statement with reality?

http://www.independent.ie/life/family/mothers-babies/baby-boom-hits-ireland-as-we-top-the-european-birth-rate-31368622.html

Your argument doesn't attack his point at all. You can still have children even if it's punitive to have them. You obviously didn't read your own source either because it partly agrees with the poster's statement:

"Housing and childcare sectors are already struggling under the weight of young families, while at the other end of the scale the low death rate means the pensions bill is spiralling."

techdiver · 13-10-2016 2:42pm

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

How exactly do you square your statement with reality?

http://www.independent.ie/life/family/mothers-babies/baby-boom-hits-ireland-as-we-top-the-european-birth-rate-31368622.html

The EU birth rate is incredibly low and the likes of Germany are in serious trouble due to their aging population.

LegallyAbroad · 13-10-2016 2:45pm

legocrazy505 wrote: »

Your argument doesn't attack his point at all. You can still have children even if it's punitive to have them. You obviously didn't read your own source either because it agrees with the poster's statement:

"Housing and childcare sectors are already struggling under the weight of young families, while at the other end of the scale the low death rate means the pensions bill is spiralling."

So, we've engineered a society where it's punitive to have kids. Yet, we've a higher fertility rate than anywhere else in Europe therefore, presuming people are choosing to have them, the nation has decided en masse to engage in behaviour is self 'punitive'

We must have the highest rate of sado-masochism as well, I suppose?

LegallyAbroad · 13-10-2016 2:46pm

techdiver wrote: »

The EU birth rate is incredibly low and the likes of Germany are in serious trouble due to their aging population.

So, it's punitive here, but more punitive in the entire rest of the EU?

legocrazy505 · 13-10-2016 2:49pm

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

So, it's punitive here, but more punitive in the entire rest of the EU?

Did you not do geography at all in school? The answer is obvious for why Germany have lower birth rates if you have some common knowledge under your belt.

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

So, we've engineered a society where it's punitive to have kids. Yet, we've a higher fertility rate than anywhere else in Europe therefore, presuming people are choosing to have them, the nation has decided en masse to engage in behaviour is self 'punitive'

We must have the highest rate of sado-masochism as well, I suppose?

I'm not the one making the claim let's be clear here however you seem to think people aren't beyond doing things that ultimately hurt them economically, socially etc. You must think more highly of humanity than most if that's the case.

Hallowed · 13-10-2016 2:50pm

Maybe if your attitude didn't suck you wouldn't have had to chase so hard.

lawlolawl wrote: »

I've reached a point in my life where i've just gotten sick of chasing women. Too much effort for **** all reward and i don't want to have kids so it's all a bit pointless.

Also, at the end of it all, after however many years you'll be stuck with an auld one. What kind of reward is that? Who would willingly walk into that?

I'll take money and being able to do whatever i want instead.

legocrazy505 · 13-10-2016 2:51pm

Hallowed wrote: »

Maybe if your attitude didn't suck you wouldn't have had to chase so hard.

To be honest I've written that poster off as a troll now after their comments on this thread, I'd advise everyone else to do the same.

techdiver · 13-10-2016 2:51pm

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

So, we've engineered a society where it's punitive to have kids. Yet, we've a higher fertility rate than anywhere else in Europe therefore, presuming people are choosing to have them, the nation has decided en masse to engage in behaviour is self 'punitive'

We must have the highest rate of sado-masochism as well, I suppose?

LegallyAbroad wrote: »

So, it's punitive here, but more punitive in the entire rest of the EU?

You're right. Everything is fine. We have more than enough future taxpayers to fund our pensions. Having children is cheap and easy. Thanks for educating me.

LegallyAbroad · 13-10-2016 3:05pm

techdiver wrote: »

You're right. Everything is fine. We have more than enough future taxpayers to fund our pensions. Having children is cheap and easy. Thanks for educating me.

There's somewhere in between "cheap and easy" and "punitive".

How about "raising children is expensive and hard, but it has always been expensive and hard, since you're literally paying the costs for extra humans, but it would seem as if Ireland has done a decent job in molding society in such a fashion as to make having children attractive, given that Irish people have more children than anywhere else in Europe."

Budget 2017

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