Journalism and cycling

tomasrojo

Registering cars is very lucrative. The only reason to start registering bikes is spite, and since not even Australia has done it, it must really be very costly relative to potential income.

tomasrojo

The other odd thing is that the bicycle commits no crime. The person on it, who is entirely visible, does the crime. They can be apprehended the same way as a pedestrian: by circulating a description.

I suppose people who wear helmets might be harder to identify without it, but, really, the imagination required to picture the Gardaí scrambling to retrieve a cyclist's identity from a database for damage to a wing mirror.

"I'll just check in with the boys down the crime lab"

rubadub

Tell me how wrote: »

Try think of it from the perspective of a pedestrian hit by an errant cyclist rather than a non-related incident of you hitting a taxi.

I was knocked off my bike by a pedestrian illegally crossing a road. Never crossed my mind that he should be wearing a reg plate.

Personally, I could live with adding a suitable identifier to my frame (as long as it doesn't have to be possible to read it from 10M Head on)

the whole purpose seems to be to be able to read it while they are fleeing the scene. So it would have to be very visible. I know my mate would not like to hear of the cost involved in registering his 4 kids, and getting their bikes kitted out with reg plates. They could be quite big on his 5 year old's bike. Will the kids have to be sure to leave the house with their licence? How much will the licence be?

I expect far more pedestrians are hit & knocked over by pedestrians, many deliberately. I also imagine most wing mirrors would be kicked off deliberately by pedestrians. The most recent case of wing mirrors I saw was a taximan who appearred to have tore it off himself afterwards, so he could have an excuse for chasing down a cyclist.

Eamonnator

I was a Garda for 30 years, 15 years in Traffic. I cannot think of one bicycle related incident, where registration plates on a bicycle, would have assisted me in investigating an offence, committed by a cyclist.
The registration of bicycles, as stated here, is a complete and utter red herring.

CramCycle

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There is no merit at all in this. Much ado about nothing.


Yes, it does happen, but the impact and frequency of occurrence make it such a trivial, minor issue in the context of all the problems we have on the road. It would be a huge distraction for legislators, policy makers and NGOs away from dealing with the very real death toll on the roads.

Strawmanning here but look at all the minor inconvenient costs caused by other cars that never gets covered despite reg plates. People reversing into your bumper with their towbar, dinging your door, taking off wing mirrors while parking. In a few cases cameras might catch them but realistically, this happens every day in car parks and at the side of the road and I imagine cost recovery is non existent. Imagine what the Gardai would say if you went to them with a request for CCTV from the local supermarket for a possible ding in your paintwork. I very polite PFO I imagine.

seamus

If we humour the registration argument for a second, we should consider ultimately the place where it comes from.

The argument is always, "if a bike hits a car/pedestrian and runs off, there is no way to identify them".

Which, on the face of it, is a reasonable argument. But it raises more questions;

- How frequently does this occur, and does the scale of the problem justify the cost of implementing bike registration?

- Does this actually work for any other mode of transport? How frequently are number plates used to successfully identify cars involved in hit-and-run incidents?

I suspect the actual answer to the last question is "very rarely", but the real answer is "nobody knows". And that alone is enough to torpedo the argument. If reg plates were used all the time to successfully catch hit-and-run suspects, we'd know all about it. But we don't even know if they are at all useful. So before we even consider reg plates on bikes, we'd have to find out that.

Tell me how

Eamonnator wrote: »

I was a Garda for 30 years, 15 years in Traffic. I cannot think of one bicycle related incident, where registration plates on a bicycle, would have assisted me in investigating an offence, committed by a cyclist.
The registration of bicycles, as stated here, is a complete and utter red herring.

With all due respect, how do you know it would have assisted you given that it would never have come up as they don't and didn't exist?

Do you think that it might have made a difference if someone said "Bike 123ABC was on the footpath, hit a lady, and rode off".

Say it was cost neutral to implement and maintain (it wouldn't be of course) what argument is there against it?

Would doing so not remove the go to arguments for many anti-cyclists and force the light on them for their behaviour?

Ray Bloody Purchase

Registration is a load of kack. The government should be doing more to incentivise people to cycle, not discourage them.

tomasrojo

AGS contacts owner of Bike 123ABC.

"Oh yeah, it was stolen. No idea where it is."

Leaves bike in friend's shed for a while.

(Not having a go, but it just doesn't seem to be a system that is in any way proportionate to the problem it's trying to solve.)

(Actually, to be fair, if there was a description of the wrongdoer as well, you might get the odd prosecution, but it's hard to see it warranting the expense of setting it up and maintaining it.)

AndrewJRenko

Tell me how wrote: »

Try think of it from the perspective of a pedestrian hit by an errant cyclist rather than a non-related incident of you hitting a taxi.

This is the problem with cyclist/motorist conversations, they are often dominated by those who are immediately very defensive on all sides.

(cyclist/motorist/pedestrian here, was knocked off bike by car 2 months ago, I'm trying to suggest finding a common ground more than conflict. We do share the roads, yada, yada, yada.)

The only perspective for thinking about public policy changes is the strategic perspective. We don't rush to legislate everything, every time someone suffers a minor impact. We look at the data to see how big of an issue this is.


The data is clear - this is not a big issue. The big issue on the roads is the motorists who kill 3 or 4 people each week. Anything else is a distraction.

seamus

Tell me how wrote: »

Say it was cost neutral to implement and maintain (it wouldn't be of course) what argument is there against it?

That it won't accomplish anything?

AndrewJRenko

Tell me how wrote: »

Say it was cost neutral to implement and maintain (it wouldn't be of course) what argument is there against it?

1) It would be a barrier to cycling, at a time when we desperately need to be encouraging more people to cycle.
2) It would be a distraction from dealing with the real issues on the roads - the motorists who kill 3 or 4 people each week.

Eamonnator

Tell me how wrote: »

With all due respect, how do you know it would have assisted you given that it would never have come up as they don't and didn't exist?

Do you think that it might have made a difference if someone said "Bike 123ABC was on the footpath, hit a lady, and rode off".

Say it was cost neutral to implement and maintain (it wouldn't be of course) what argument is there against it?

Would doing so not remove the go to arguments for many anti-cyclists and force the light on them for their behaviour?

One of the points, I was trying, in my cack handed way, to make, is that I never dealt with a hit and run collision, committed by a cyclist. In the few collisions involving cyclists, that I dealt with, the cyclist always hung around.

CramCycle

Tell me how wrote: »

Do you think that it might have made a difference if someone said "Bike 123ABC was on the footpath, hit a lady, and rode off".

There are two types of people here, person A who would stop, wait and assist. Then there is person B who would turn to the Garda and say, really, I wasn't there at all today. Theses people are not much different than motorists but the chances of either Person A or B killing or critically injuring somone is minimal, whereas in a car it is quite likely. Even if it was freee for the person, the cost to society alone makes it something to be avoided. the only country who ran this system also abandoned it in recent times AFAIK.

Say it was cost neutral to implement and maintain (it wouldn't be of course) what argument is there against it?

It is a barrier to cycling, it aids the view that cycling is dangerous and therefore needs such things when it is not. Even if free, it would still require people to get the paperwork in order and send off every year, change it everytime you sold a bike or bought it etc. The truth of the matter is if the government had an active policy to increase cycling numbers, it would pay for itself if successful over time with reduced health issues, traffic issues and so on. this policy will actively decrease cycling numbers and be an overall net negative to us in regards health and environment.

Would doing so not remove the go to arguments for many anti-cyclists and force the light on them for their behaviour?

Your error here is that you think it will change anything in the mindset of someone who is anticycling in general anyway. The people who sit in a car giving out about cyclists and running lights, blaming them for every perceived slight will find something else to latch onto. Once the registration is complete it will turn to tax, once tax is complete it will turn into mandatory use of lanes that are unfit for purpose and exclusion from certain roadways without lanes (ie 99% of the country), then to mandatory helmets and Hi Vis. The truth is, they simply will not be happy until cycling as a reasonable mode of transport is gone and nothing will change that. The irony being once they achieve that, they sadly will have less to give out about but alot more time to do it.

seamus wrote: »

That it won't accomplish anything?

It will accomplish reducing cycling numbers, which is what those people want.

Chips Lovell

rubadub wrote: »

"The Minister told The Irish Times: “I deplore the fact that some people refuse to wear cycling helmets. It is a great pity. It is irresponsible but it is their own choice.""


deplorable!

Fighting Tao

How many people have had cars damaged by other cars in carparks etc and the other car drove off. They have registration plates but are rarely caught.

Now compare that to the number of cars damaged by bikes in total.

An educated guess would be that the number of bikes involved in the second scenario would be minuscule in comparison to the number of cars leaving the scene in the first scenario.

Registration plates are useless in many situations. Regardless of mode of transport, if someone is adamant about leaving the scene because they reckon they will get away with it, there is nothing stopping them.


Another thing to bear in mind about registration plates on bikes, how big would they have to be to be seen? The same size as a cars (that is often not read completely)?

Would someone be able to identify a bike e.g. the registration number was 181 D but I can’t remember the rest. It was a red...eh I dunno because I didn’t recognise the name or model. It’s easier with cars but still useless a lot of the time.

Then what about the 100,000s of bikes out there. No one knows how many there is so how would it be known if they were registered?

The whole idea is bizarre and an attempt to deflect from the real dangers on the road that can be identified much easier. These real dangers are often not identified either.


I’m rambling a bit but I’m sure there a couple of points in there somewhere.

Tell me how

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

The only perspective for thinking about public policy changes is the strategic perspective. We don't rush to legislate everything, every time someone suffers a minor impact. We look at the data to see how big of an issue this is.
The data is clear - this is not a big issue. The big issue on the roads is the motorists who kill 3 or 4 people each week. Anything else is a distraction.

The road deaths (and accidents) is the biggest question. No doubt. But, there is acrimony towards cyclists. Is it possible that some of this is held in the minds of those who deliver policy and as a consequence do not allocate positively towards cycling. Might the identification topic lessen some of this acrimony in time thus leading to more positive thoughts than negative coming to mind for these people when they think of cyclists.

seamus wrote: »

That it won't accomplish anything?

I’m not sure. It might aid in the identification of stolen bikes either at point of sale or recovery? It might quieten some of the arguments that cyclists see themselves as immune. It certainly will not fix everything.

CramCycle wrote: »

Even if it was free for the person, the cost to society alone makes it something to be avoided. the only country who ran this system also abandoned it in recent times AFAIK.

This is a valid point. If another country has tried to implement it and stepped back then exploring just what their experience was and using that as an argument against it is valid.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

1) It would be a barrier to cycling, at a time when we desperately need to be encouraging more people to cycle.

CramCycle wrote: »

this policy will actively decrease cycling numbers and be an overall net negative to us in regards health and environment.

It will accomplish reducing cycling numbers, which is what those people want.

I don’t necessarily agree that it would it be a barrier. Yes, it might be an added inconvenience, but, if it ultimately helped to result in better consideration and provision towards cyclists then it is possible that more would end up cycling as a result.

CramCycle wrote: »

Your error here is that you think it will change anything in the mindset of someone who is anticycling in general anyway. The people who sit in a car giving out about cyclists and running lights, blaming them for every perceived slight will find something else to latch onto. Once the registration is complete it will turn to tax, once tax is complete it will turn into mandatory use of lanes that are unfit for purpose and exclusion from certain roadways without lanes (ie 99% of the country), then to mandatory helmets and Hi Vis. The truth is, they simply will not be happy until cycling as a reasonable mode of transport is gone and nothing will change that. The irony being once they achieve that, they sadly will have less to give out about but alot more time to do it.

The reality is that private car ownership and single person occupancy of vehicles is approaching the peak of its curve. Global requirements and pressure in terms of carbon emissions if nothing else will impact the private motorist. There will be some that give out, there always are, but many are giving out about their fellow drivers as much as they are cyclists. It is that conundrum of being stuck in traffic without acknowledging that you yourself is just as much responsible for the traffic as each other driver.

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Registration plates are useless in many situations. Regardless of mode of transport, if someone is adamant about leaving the scene because they reckon they will get away with it, there is nothing stopping them.

Agree. And many motorcylists have the tax disc holder located in a place where it often ‘accidentally’ obscured the number plate (or at least used to anyway).


My position in this discussion is about considering something to show that cyclists are willing to work with other road users to help make others thing less negatively about them. I feel myself that cyclists are unfairly perceived in many cases and certainly poorly accommodated in terms of road design and that we are the more vulnerable road user. We get very frustrated at how slowly things change to favour cyclists. That being the case, how do we make changes if all politicians, road traffic interest groups and local councils are against cycling? There has to be a way to change perception or else the conflict will continue to become entrenched and any legislation will be piecemeal or will facilitate investment only to the point of 100M vanishing cycle lanes for example.
I do agree that there are several arguments to be made against it (cost etc) but that aside, I think it is better to explore and discuss than just dismissing it because when a motorist hears that, it gets their back up that cyclists want no responsibility. I think if there has been an open discussion, at least then it can be said that it was assessed but found unsuitable towards improving things.

tomasrojo

Tell me how wrote: »

This is a valid point. If another country has tried to implement it and stepped back then exploring just what their experience was and using that as an argument against it is valid.

The only country I can think of that had a sort of bicycle registration scheme was Switzerland. It was a small plate you paid for that went towards general insurance for cyclists. They got rid of it because it cost more than it made.

I'll try to find a link for that, as I'm not sure I've got it 100% correct. It's definitely gone now though.

tomasrojo

Something about Switzerland's bicycle vignette here:
https://www.knowitall.ch/careers/47-transport/swiss-transport/732-new-laws-for-bicycle-owners-in-switzerland-no-more-vignettes

magicbastarder

Tell me how wrote: »

Might the identification topic lessen some of this acrimony in time thus leading to more positive thoughts than negative coming to mind for these people when they think of cyclists.

at a rough guess, no. not in the slightest.

tomasrojo

The Swiss bicycle vignette was tiny, by the way. It was about the size of half a playing card.

EDIT:

Tell me how

magicbastarder wrote: »

at a rough guess, no. not in the slightest.

That's the entrenched view I'm talking about. It exists on both sides.

tomasrojo

Sometimes views are entrenched because they're correct. In this case, the view that giving into a registration scheme will not make people who are inclined to dislike cyclists suddenly like cyclists is almost certainly correct.

tomasrojo

I say "almost" in this spirit:

Lloyd: What do you think the chances are of a guy like you and a girl like me…ending up together?

Mary: Not good.

Lloyd: You mean, not good like one out of a hundred?

Mary: I’d say more like one out of a million.

Lloyd: So you’re telling me there’s a chance

magicbastarder

i got a feeling for the entrenchedness (to coin a word) the other day. i see my father in law about once a week, usually when i'm at the end of a cycle. despite the fact that his favourite (well, only) son in law is a keen cyclist, he was giving out about cyclists, telling me he 'regularly' sees cyclists bulling to give out to him as he's overtaking them (and made an angry shaking fist gesture to illustrate what he supposedly sees).

so either it's a complete fantasy of his, or he's a dangerous overtaker and is convinced the cyclists are at fault for his overtaking.

Tell me how

tomasrojo wrote: »

Sometimes views are entrenched because they're correct. In this case, the view that giving into a registration scheme will not make people who are inclined to dislike cyclists suddenly like cyclists is almost certainly correct.

Agree. But it might take one of their arguments away.

What Username Guidelines

I’ve made the awful mistake of reading comments on the Irish times articles posted to Facebook regarding the 1.5m law and Ross also confirming cyclists don’t have to wear high vis or helmets. Can’t help but think this is gonna make the roads a bit more dangerous for the next few days. Lots of ill-informed rubbish, anecdotal crap and basically hatred for anyone on a bike. And they’ve all just been told they *don’t* have to give 1.5m while overtaking and cyclists can wear whatever they want. Good times.

Tell me how

magicbastarder wrote: »

i got a feeling for the entrenchedness (to coin a word) the other day. i see my father in law about once a week, usually when i'm at the end of a cycle. despite the fact that his favourite (well, only) son in law is a keen cyclist, he was giving out about cyclists, telling me he 'regularly' sees cyclists bulling to give out to him as he's overtaking them (and made an angry shaking fist gesture to illustrate what he supposedly sees).

so either it's a complete fantasy of his, or he's a dangerous overtaker and is convinced the cyclists are at fault for his overtaking.

We can all come up with anecodtes to support the harsh reality which cycling often is. (Imagine though this thread in the motoring forum) We should also open our eyes to those that occur which weaken our position.

I quite regularly see a neighbour commuter cyclist doing about 15-18 kph on a footpath with a cycle lane on the road beside them. Every time I see them, I think that they are making it harder for people to think positively about us as a group. I'm not suggesting that lane is perfect but I can understand how the dislike builds when each side is getting more and more aggrieved because of what the other is doing.

tomasrojo

Honestly, I'd just forget about the "Let's get our house in order" mindset. It's a bunch of disparate people from all kinds of backgrounds with all kinds of attitudes who just happen to at least sometimes get about by bike. There is no house to get in order.

tomasrojo

Tell me how wrote: »

We can all come up with anecodtes to support the harsh reality which cycling often is.

That's not what I got from the anecdote.