Passed test 3 years ago, but unsure about roundabouts conundrum..

job seeker

Hi all, so I passed my driving test and everything is grand. After nearly been 2 accident in the last 4 months. I'm just wondering about a roundabout.

roundabout diagram.png

So in this diagram I come to a roundabout which is a two lane, left lane (takes 1st and 2nd exit) I am marked as a yellow square and my route is a purple line. The yellow dots are the indicator to show I'm taking second exit.

The red car is in the outside lane, so they are indicating to take the 3rd exit. The blue line is the way I was thinking they were going, until they try to take the 2nd exit. Same exit as me. represented by a green line.

Now the arrows on the road show that I am in the correct lane for taking the 1st or 2nd exit, (They are accually road markings) So they should be going to take the 3rd exit. That's okay, when the 2nd exit is a 2 lane road. which some are. However, in this case the 2nd exit was a one lane road.

Now I know I'm in the right here and they are in the wrong.. :pac::P

But, I poated a similar situation in the dash cam thread a few weeks ago and members claimed that if I crashed, it would be my fault? So how in the name of god is this? If I'm in the correct lane?

b_mac2

Just do what I see most people do when entering a roundabout, close your eyes and hope for the best.

job seeker

b_mac2 wrote: »

Just do what I see most people do when entering a roundabout, close your eyes and hope for the best.

em... right!?

spurious

On what basis did they say you would be at fault?
You were the one in the correct lane.

Donutz

job seeker wrote:

But, I poated a similar situation in the dash cam thread a few weeks ago and members claimed that if I crashed, it would be my fault? So how in the name of god is this? If I'm in the correct lane?

Don't understand how this would be your fault.

If the gardai attend an accident they don't decide who is at fault. It is the insurance company that decides blame. If an accident happened because the other driver was in the wrong lane, I find it hard to believe that your insurance company would admit the liability.

alchemist33

You're in the correct lane. The fact there's only one lane on exit, and the signs confirm it, says the other guy is in the wrong lane.


And loooove your artwork

job seeker

spurious wrote: »

On what basis did they say you would be at fault?
You were the one in the correct lane.

This is the video I posted

Here, I asked whos fault would it be if I had a "tip"..

And on that same page here is the replies..

josip wrote: »

I have been told on here before that if the other car is ahead of you on the roundabout, regardless of which lane they're in and where they're indicating, then it's your responsibility not to crash into them.

rizzodun wrote: »

Well, seeing as you were behind them even though they were clearly in the wrong you should have avoided them as they were ahead of you, good job second guessing their driving though, I use this roundabout a lot and it's common enough unfortunately, because you come down a hill into it too many people take it way too quick also.

That's the N4 though, not the N7, that had me confused for a second

I just need, to know what the true story is...

Thanks..

job seeker

alchemist33 wrote: »

You're in the correct lane. The fact there's only one lane on exit, and the signs confirm it, says the other guy is in the wrong lane.


And loooove your artwork

I see, I don't really mind if it's a two lane exit. As I'm not really in as much danger been in a crash as entering a one lane exit..

Thanks very much :pac::P It took me an hour to do that on MS paint.. :pac:

Plopli

He's in the wrong but if you rear end the other driver, even if he was in the wrong, insurance would argue that you should always be able to stop.
If it's a side sweep, this would be less clear but I'm pretty sure the insurance will go for 50/50 so that they are able to screw you both.

job seeker

Plopli wrote: »

He's in the wrong but if you rear end the other driver, even if he was in the wrong, insurance would argue that you should always be able to stop.
If it's a side sweep, this would be less clear but I'm pretty sure the insurance will go for 50/50 so that they are able to screw you both.

This is the issue though, if your taking the first exit, how could a crash be your fault? as your in the right..? I just don't get it... :eek:

spurious

If you go into the back of another car, even if they have drifted into your path at the last second, you are at fault. You should always be able to stop.

Roundabouts are where my late father's one and only piece of advice regarding driving ALWAYS comes into play - 'Expect them all to be cretins, because most of them are'.

You get a sixth sense for them after a while.

Walter2016

Yes other driver is wrong to use right lane, but as that driver was ahead of you, you'd be in the wrong for hitting side or rear of that car.

It would be a garda prosecution issue for the other driver as he/she did not use correct lanes.

But it would be a "driving without due care" issue if you had a tip that you could have avoided if paying attention.

But 100% you used the roundabout correctly, however that does not preclude you from being aware of other drivers. (or pedestrians or cyclists)

Expect the unexpected.

Glass fused light

Firstly don't ever trust an indicator, particularly on a roundabout, anticipate that the other driver has no clue where they are going but will willingly drive over you to get there.  Seriously, most of the work needs to be in the seconds leading up to you and the  other driver arriving at the junction and general traffic flow.  

On some roundabouts the local traffic can develop a pattern which will not match the road markings. Eg the majority of the traffic always turns left so rather than wait in line the people going straight move into the outer right turn lane. Its likely that the other driver may moved in to the outer lane so that they will gain the time advantage as  you would have to wait for a car on the roundabout to pass him and then you.  Once they have pulled ahead of you, you are at a disadvantage as the damage will 'read' as you hitting them; being that your front bumper driving side hitting the side of their car and the further back the damage the more you 'failed' to read the other car's road position.

Looking at your diagram the circular road marking are poorly designed on the actual roundabout and so don't match the indicated flow patterns of traffic entering or leaving the roundabout. However your diagram would work against you in a crash claim scenario.

IMO In the video the car was well ahead of you entering the roundabout, from what i can make out on the road signs the left hand turn is more a local access 'minor' turn and the 2 and 3 exits are regional roads. This is a consideration you need to take account of. From the my reading of the clip the arrow markings on the road relate to the T junction before the roundabout and that right turn lane is terminated by the hatch markings. This is not represented on the signage. So your diagram is not a factual representation of the junction nor of the road positions of either car at the start of the manoeuvre. 

Anyways, the driver remains in the single lane heading into the roundabout. 
This single lane then branches into two lanes and the driver has a choice.  Although it looks as if the natural flow of the road is to stay in the right hand side, the driver's use of the indicator could be selecting the right lane not the 3rd exit.  As I cant see the indicator after 13 second I can't determine if the indicator was turned off or not once the car entered the roundabout. But the exit is designed to be wide enough to allow two cars to enter at the same time with the give way to your right rule applying, filtering into a single lane after the exit point. So imo the other driver did a text book right lane roundabout manoeuvre (maybe with a signal error).

Dearg81

I'd agree with the above post as I think both of you would be at fault in this scenario. The other car is in the wrong lane but is right of you on the roundabout which gives them right of way.

Think of it this way, if the other car had entered the roundabout at an earlier stage then you would be fully to blame so you should always be checking your mirror and giving way to traffic on the right regardless of were they entered the roundabout.

Glass fused light

Dearg81 wrote: »

I'd agree with the above post as I think both of you would be at fault in this scenario. The other car is in the wrong lane but is right of you on the roundabout which gives them right of way.

Think of it this way, if the other car had entered the roundabout at an earlier stage then you would be fully to blame so you should always be checking your mirror and giving way to traffic on the right regardless of were they entered the roundabout.

I would argue that the other car was not in the wrong lane as they entered the junction on a two lane road, the roundabout is a two lane road and they could not see over the mound to the exit point, they are not wrong to presume that they will exit on a two lane road (Irish drivers will mostly be disappointed on that one )
Once on the roundabout and exiting they have the right to expect that where the exit point of the two lane road filters into a single lane that they have priority as the give way rule applies.

Dearg81

Glass fused light wrote:

I would argue that the other car was not in the wrong lane as they entered the junction on a two lane road, the roundabout is a two lane road and they could not see over the mound to the exit point, they are not wrong to presume that they will exit on a two lane road (Irish drivers will mostly be disappointed on that one ) Once on the roundabout and exiting they have the right to expect that where the exit point of the two lane road filters into a single lane that they have priority as the give way rule applies.

The OP said the road was marked and that he was in the correct lane when entering the roundabout. I read that as meaning the right lane the other driver entered the roundabout in had a right arrow to indicate it was meant for the 3rd exit. If not, then I'd agree with you.

Glass fused light

Dearg81 wrote: »

The OP said the road was marked and that he was in the correct lane when entering the roundabout. I read that as meaning the right lane the other driver entered the roundabout in had a right arrow to indicate it was meant for the 3rd exit. If not, then I'd agree with you.

Watch the video clip in the link IMO the OP is reading the two combined junctions wrong and so the diagram is wrong.

Dearg81

Glass fused light wrote:

Watch the video clip in the link IMO the OP is reading the two combined junctions wrong and so the diagram is wrong.

Fair enough. The video won't load for me on my phone.

Glass fused light

Dearg81 wrote: »

Fair enough. The video won't load for me on my phone.

No worries, I was thinking the same as you until I watched the video

job seeker

Glass fused light wrote: »

Watch the video clip in the link IMO the OP is reading the two combined junctions wrong and so the diagram is wrong.

The video is only a similar roundabout to the one in which I'm using to demonstrate how it went.

As for the video, I use that very roundabout on a daily basis. Every driver (with a brain) which enters the slip road uses the left hand lane. In the last 6 years I've been driving, I've seen only two occasions for the driver to use the right lane and take the slip road (second exit) on to the N4. that video been one of them...

Glass fused light wrote: »

On some roundabouts the local traffic can develop a pattern which will not match the road markings.

However, if the road markings aren't matching? Why are they there? :rolleyes:

Glass fused light

job seeker wrote: »

Every driver (with a brain)

Well there is your first mistake:pac:, some days the brain is an optional extra.

job seeker wrote: »

The video is only a similar roundabout to the one in which I'm using to demonstrate how it went.  

IMO its not.

From my viewing the clip the entry to the junction on the clip is the classic roundabout layout from the rules of the road and it has no sign nor road markings similar to your diagram.  From the clip the exit is not designed as single lane exit, the width is to accommodate filtering to funnel traffic into a single lane.

job seeker wrote: »

As for the video, I use that very roundabout on a daily basis. Every driver (with a brain) which enters the slip road uses the left hand lane. In the last 6 years I've been driving, I've seen only two occasions for the driver to use the right lane and take the slip road (second exit) on to the N4. that video been one of them...

Well the two occasions are what you always need to look out for and the driver in the clip was technically correct in what they did.

How were you indicating after you passed the T junction?

job seeker wrote: »

However, if the road markings aren't matching? Why are they there? :rolleyes:

Are you asking about the road markings or the driver in the other lane?

job seeker

Glass fused light wrote: »

Well there is your first mistake:pac:, some days the brain is an optional extra.

Glass fused light wrote: »

mo its not.

From my viewing the clip the entry to the junction on the clip is the classic roundabout layout from the rules of the road and it has no sign nor road markings similar to your diagram.  From the clip the exit is not designed as single lane exit, the width is to accommodate filtering to funnel traffic into a single lane.

That's why I said, the clip is from a different roundabout all together..

Glass fused light wrote: »

the two occasions are what you always need to look out for and the driver in the clip was technically correct in what they did.

3rd exit is for the second lane only though..

Glass fused light wrote: »

how were you indicating after you passed the T junction?

I indicate left to take the second exit, after the first exit..

Glass fused light wrote: »

are you asking about the road markings or the driver in the other lane?

The road markings, I fail to see how the council would put down wrong road markings

Dravokivich

While the driver of that Golf is doing a couple of things wrong, it's not the use of the roundabout.

- Switching lanes when not really needed in advance of the roundabout.
- Merging with traffic at a lower speed.

Glass fused light

job seeker wrote: »

That's why I said, the clip is from a different roundabout all together..

You can't show me a nice video and a map .........and then expect me to read the map.:eek: moving pictures rule!!

job seeker wrote: »

3rd exit is for the second lane only though..

Hmmm...the second lane is for..

job seeker wrote: »

I indicate left to take the second exit, after the first exit..

ok if this is referring to the video clip, where you have passed T junction and the hatched marking to your right  IMO there would be a explanation for moving into the right lane.  On the days my brain rides shotgun:D; if I am coming into that roundabout look in my mirror and see the car behind me indicating  left, I'll move to the right lane, and not force the other driver to wait for me to get a clear path through the junction.

On the map;) it's more likely that the other driver is just queue jumping.

job seeker wrote: »

The road markings, I fail to see how the council would put down wrong road markings

They wont put down wrong road markings. 
A road  is designed to provide optimum traffic flows based on expected traffic patterns, but if the traffic pattern is misjudged or changes, the local drivers will adapted by ignoring the road markings.  Once the council becomes aware that there is an issue they respond by looking at the junction again and if possible redesigning it.

Consider a town by-pass, the designer is working off a blank canvas, connecting the top and bottom of the town by way of roundabouts. 
Now they have the number of cars travelling both ways through the town but don't know why the cars are travelling into town.  Let's say 25% of the morning traffic is to pop in for a coffee but the road engineer did not know that the best and cheapest coffee is at the north end of the town and the school is in the middle of it. So the people from the south now use the by-pass to avoid the school traffic and a bottle neck develops at that roundabout because traffic from the north has priority going in to town. North bound locals not getting coffee don't want to queue that extra 5 min. behind their coffee loving neighbour, know what the delay is from and so adjust their flow pattern to approaching the roundabout in the right lane.

Dravokivich wrote: »

While the driver of that Golf is doing a couple of things wrong, it's not the use of the roundabout.

- Switching lanes when not really needed in advance of the roundabout.
- Merging with traffic at a lower speed.

No offence intended by this  Job Seeker
On the switching lanes, this depends a little on how Job Seeker was driving coming up to the junction.  You can see from the Golf approach that they defensively break for the van on the right.   The second time they break was still a little far out from the junction, this could be to give them time to read the junction or to trigger a 'slow down' break response in Job Seeker.  The reason is not really important,  it's a signal to Job Seeker that the driver may not act in a predictable way and to give that little bit of extra space.

On the merging Job Seeker had undertaken the driver on the roundabout and they had to manoeuvre around Job Seeker to get into their turn. At this stage Job Seeker should respond by slowing down, dropping back and give them a little time to recover as the driver now has a split focus, thinking on what happened rather than the merge ahead.  If driving defensively, the Golf driver is thinking that Job Seeker predictability is questionable and has judged his timing to pull out behind the white car and prevent a situation of pulling out ahead of the white car and Job Seeker follows, aiming for the overtaking lane but messes up. Obviously I dont know what was coming up from behind, but as Job Seeker overtook (safely) there was no need for the Golf driver to meet a merging speed, maintaining the slow speed is an invitation to be overtaken and if needed gives the driver additional recovery time.

job seeker

Glass fused light wrote: »

Yok if this is referring to the video clip, where you have passed T junction and the hatched marking to your right  IMO there would be a explanation for moving into the right lane.  On the days my brain rides shotgun:D; if I am coming into that roundabout look in my mirror and see the car behind me indicating  left, I'll move to the right lane, and not force the other driver to wait for me to get a clear path through the junction.

But I only indicated left after passing the first exit. Which is what you're supposed to do...

Also, do you drive? Because you're coming across as not having a notion about roundabouts.. :):)

Glass fused light wrote: »

On the map;) it's more likely that the other driver is just queue jumping.

Glass fused light wrote: »

They wont put down wrong road markings. 
A road  is designed to provide optimum traffic flows based on expected traffic patterns, but if the traffic pattern is misjudged or changes, the local drivers will adapted by ignoring the road markings.  Once the council becomes aware that there is an issue they respond by looking at the junction again and if possible redesigning it.

Glass fused light wrote: »

On some roundabouts the local traffic can develop a pattern which will not match the road markings.

But the purpose of the road markings are there to guide traffic around the round about in a safe manner.. that's the reason it displays a straight and left arrow. To indicate that if your taking the 1st or 2nd exit, the driver should be in my lane...

Glass fused light wrote: »

No offence intended by this  Job Seeker
On the switching lanes, this depends a little on how Job Seeker was driving coming up to the junction.  You can see from the Golf approach that they defensively break for the van on the right.   The second time they break was still a little far out from the junction, this could be to give them time to read the junction or to trigger a 'slow down' break response in Job Seeker.  The reason is not really important,  it's a signal to Job Seeker that the driver may not act in a predictable way and to give that little bit of extra space.

Bull! They went to take the 3rd exit and only realised when they were half way around the roundabout.

How did you come up with that? :rolleyes:

Glass fused light wrote: »

On the merging Job Seeker had undertaken the driver on the roundabout and they had to manoeuvre around Job Seeker to get into their turn. At this stage Job Seeker should respond by slowing down, dropping back and give them a little time to recover as the driver now has a split focus, thinking on what happened rather than the merge ahead.  If driving defensively, the Golf driver is thinking that Job Seeker predictability is questionable and has judged his timing to pull out behind the white car and prevent a situation of pulling out ahead of the white car and Job Seeker follows, aiming for the overtaking lane but messes up. Obviously I dont know what was coming up from behind, but as Job Seeker overtook (safely) there was no need for the Golf driver to meet a merging speed, maintaining the slow speed is an invitation to be overtaken and if needed gives the driver additional recovery time.

I didn't undertake as such, I seen that the golf was taking the 3rd exit, so there was no need to wait. If you watch the video from 0.02, the arrows (to show which lane to take; i.e. the lane I'm in for the 1st and 2nd exit and the lane the golf is in for the 3rd exit..) are printed on the road twice...

Again, they where in the lane to take the 3rd exit, there for they should have been either ahead of me or behind me in the same lane if taking the 2nd exit..

Ya, the thing is though when merging with traffic on a national road you're supposed to be matching the speed .i.e. 90 - 100kph

Incorrect, merging at 60kph is no a safe thing to do. For obvious reasons...

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

The diagram is wrong alright OP.

Your car and/or the car in the right lane can exit at the second exit based on your video.

Glass fused light wrote: »

Watch the video clip in the link IMO the OP is reading the two combined junctions wrong and so the diagram is wrong.

job seeker

Brycen Tasteless Ringer wrote: »

The diagram is wrong alright OP.

Your car and/or the car in the right lane can exit at the second exit based on your video.

But the diagram and the video are two different roundabout.. the're not even in the same county...

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

And? Two incoming lanes and a single exit lane at "12 oclock". Similar scenario, no explicit road markings/signage, same country, same rule.

job seeker wrote: »

But the diagram and the video are two different roundabout.. the're not even in the same county...

job seeker

Brycen Tasteless Ringer wrote: »

And? Two incoming lanes and a single exit lane at "12 oclock". Similar layouts, same country, same rule.

But why would the golf be aloud cut across my lane to take the 2nd exit so???

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

He's not cutting across you, he is exiting the roundabout. You have to take that exit (it's the last exit you are supposed to take coming from the left lane). He can take the same exit, or any subsequent exit.

You both "merge" into the exit lane that you are both taking.

Edit: A lot of similar roundabouts have a merge arrow on the single exit lane (dual lane roundabouts), though a lot them do not. However, you cannot know if there's a merge arrow until you have exited the roundabout or you have driven that roundabout previously. Thus always presume either lane can exit (in this type of layout) and remember that you may have to merge. Simples.

job seeker wrote: »

But why would the golf be aloud cut across my lane to take the 2nd exit so???

Glass fused light

job seeker wrote: »

Also, do you drive? 

Firstly my driving history, yes I do, let's just say that some of the signage listed in the current ROR (rsa dot ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Rules_of_the_road dot pdf). 
was not in my version, as the infrastructure did not exist, and I would have been instructed to aim to occupy the same space as you on exiting a roundabout.

The video and the Map image:
IMO comparing or trying to cross reference the video clip and the map is counterproductive so I am not referring to the map in this post.

On the video clip
 You are posting in the learning to drive, so any observation or critique (not criticism) I make is aiming/trying to be helpful, not to make you feel defensive. Its to challenge you to think about the actions you take. Your actions are based on a conclusion you come to which is based on your observations and assumptions.  I respect that you are here to learn.  You were actually driving so you also have a memory of the event and could see additional information.  I can only make observations on what I see in the clip eg the Golf is off screen between 0:15 and 0:25 and I may make assumptions but will do my best to explain how I came to make an assumption.  

I may be incorrect in my observation and as a result may be incorrect in my assumptions, feel free to detail why you think this.
But I will try to just list questions on this.


Then road markings:
Understanding human behaviour is a science,  eg think about, at an empty junction how long will you stay at a red light before thinking its broken and start considering going through the junction "on a red".

From a safety (and  learning perspective) do you agree that you should not presume that another driver will see or comply with either road markings or road signage?


Replying to your other sections in the post:

job seeker wrote: »

Glass fused light wrote: »

if I am coming into that roundabout look in my mirror and see the car behind me indicating  left,

But I only indicated left after passing the first exit. Which is what you're supposed to do...

You need to go back and read the whole paragraph and figure out where my road position would be when I looked in my mirror.  A key word is" into".
How many traffic lanes are there at the start of the clip?
Where is the T junction  in the video clip?
After the T junction what are the hatch markings on the right indicating ?
How many traffic lanes are there between the T junction and and the blue keep left sign located on the right side in front of the grass verge?
What lane options are available to me after this sign?

job seeker wrote: »

that's the reason it displays a straight and left arrow.

What is the straight arrow markings indicating at the start of the clip?
What is the right arrow markings indicating at the start of the clip?
What are the hatch markings indicating?
Where is the left arrow markings in clip (or was that a typo)?

job seeker wrote: »

To indicate that if your taking the 1st or 2nd exit, the driver should be in my lane... 

NB Ignore the video clip and any road markings for the moment.

On a two lane road going on to a roundabout, do you accept that a driver taking the 2nd exit has two options, of using either the left or using the right lane?

job seeker wrote: »

How did you come up with that?

 
I can come back to this at the moment, the important thing is that we need to agree on what we are seeing.

job seeker wrote: »

I didn't undertake as such, 

You did, you entered the junction after the Golf and were attempting to exit at the same time.  In order to do so your vehicle has to be travelling at a greater speed than the Golf.

job seeker wrote: »

as such, 

The ROR cover examples when undertaking is acceptable, is this covered or ignored in the examples?

Roundabout junctions are points of intersection, and when two cars intersect they crash.  As noted above when I was doing my test the focus was to end up in the left lane coming off a roundabout, but the book conveniently did not explain how to get there.

job seeker wrote: »

I seen that the golf was taking the 3rd exit, 

No, you had not seen that the Golf was doing anything, you made a prediction of a future action based on a observation.

The prediction/conclusion you arrived at based on your observation was factually incorrect, otherwise the Golf would have taken the 3rd exit.

job seeker wrote: »

so there was no need to wait. 

By undertaking you gain a second or so, but risk a side impact on the driver side or being rear-ended

The potential consequence of an error is  directly linked to your physical well being.  An impact even at low speeds can cause you damage, particularly to your spine. Your spine structure controls the transmission of all instructions from your brain to your body.  (This is why you will see on the tv programme 'Road Wars' filmed in the UK, that once a occupant is still seated in a car and complaining of neck injury, some fire brigades have moved to cutting people out of cars as standard practice.)

The rear-ending : I am assuming you had to break to accommodate the Golf turning into the junction for the slip road:
The van driver waiting to enter the roundabout on your left (9 o'clock). Is also making a prediction of your future action based on a observation. If the driver makes a mistake you could have been rear ended as your speed would have dropped in the distance between your entry point and your exit point.

job seeker wrote: »

If you watch the video from 0.02, the arrows (to show which lane to take; i.e. the lane I'm in for the 1st and 2nd exit and the lane the golf is in for the 3rd exit..) are printed on the road twice... 

How many traffic lanes are there at the start of the clip?
What is the straight arrow markings indicating at the start of the clip?
What is the right arrow markings indicating at the start of the clip?
Where is the T junction  in the video clip?
After the T junction what are the hatch markings on the right indicating?
How many traffic lanes are there between the T junction and and the blue keep left sign located on the right side in front of the grass verge?
How many lanes are there after the blue keep left sign located on the right side in front of the grass verge?
What lane options are available to me after this sign?
What is it appropriate for the driver to do as they pass the blue keep left sign located on the right side in front of the grass verge to inform other drivers that they are making a choice?
After the driver has informed other drivers and carried out their choice what should the driver do to signal that they have finished their action?
What is the risk point for other drivers once the action is finished and the driver fails to signal that they have finished their action?
What would have been an appropriate signal sequence from any driver who is at the blue keep left sign and exiting on the 3rd exit?

job seeker wrote: »

Again, they where in the lane to take the 3rd exit, there for they should have been either ahead of me or behind me in the same lane if taking the 2nd exit..

IMO The conclusion you arrived at based on your observation is factually incorrect.
Have you figured out what my observations are and why I have come to a different conclusion than you?

job seeker wrote: »

Ya, the thing is though when merging with traffic on a national road you're supposed to be matching the speed .i.e. 90 - 100kph 

This statement, if made by you as a defendant in court (eg think scene of an accident), about your driving , could rightly see you convicted of dangerous driving.  If you do not understand why you would be convicted you should to sit down with a driving instructor and get them to explain it.

job seeker wrote: »

Incorrect, merging at 60kph is no a safe thing to do.

You merged your vehicle off the slip road entering off the merging lane onto the road and you drove behind the Golf and you made an overtake manoeuvre on the Golf.

Are you saying that as a result of your driving a vehicle travelling behind you was forced to make an evasive manoeuvre?

J_R

Hi,

In the video clip the OP did absolutely nothing wrong, he followed the Rules of the Road at all times. He should of course keep an eye on the idiot Golf driver and do his utmost to avoid a collision but if a collision did occur when the Golf attempted to get back to the left hand side of the road it would be the Golf drivers fault.
ROTR

What to do if you need to change your position
If you are overtaking, turning right or passing pedestrians, cyclists, horse riders or other road users or parked vehicles, make sure it is safe to do so.
Always check in your mirror for any vehicles coming up on your right or overtaking from behind, and don't forget to check your blind spots.
Give a clear signal to warn traffic in good time of your intentions and proceed.

ROTR

Changing traffic lanes
Don't move from one traffic lane to another without good reason.
You must give way to traffic already in the lane into which you are moving.

Again ROTR

How to change lanes safely
If you have good reason to change lanes, use your mirrors and check in plenty of time to ensure that the way is clear. To check your blind spot when travelling at speed, take a quick sideways glance to check the position of a vehicle that may have disappeared from your view in the mirror.
Signal your intention and change lane when it is clear and safe to do so.
When in a lane or approaching a junction, obey any road signs or markings (usually arrows) indicating the direction that traffic in those lanes must take.

If there was a collision more than likely the Golf driver would be charged with dangerous driving, the OP perhaps a much minor due care and attention. The cops like to cover all bases. But more than likely that charge would be dismissed in court

On approach the Golf driver should have kept left, obey the very basic road position rule, Keep Left Instead he changed lanes unnecessary. In the clip, irrespective whither there were one or two exits he should have stayed left.
ROTR

Think of the roundabout as a clock.
If taking any exit from the 6 o'clock to the 12 o'clock position, motorists should generally approach in the left-hand lane.

The left lane was clear, he should have stayed left. Normal rules apply also to roundabouts - stay left.

The OP did nothing wrong in undertaking
ROTR

You may overtake on the left when:_
You want to go straight ahead when the driver in front of you has moved out and signalled that they intend to turn right.

OP continue using roundabouts as you did in the clip, just keep an eye out for idiots.
Expect the unexpected as someone said.

Glass fused light

J_R your signature has information about a motoring institute, does that advocate advanced or defensive driving?

The OP has come here with a question on roundabouts.  The original question was had a diagram of a roundabout and reference to a video clip.  I am presuming that as the OP has been driving successfully for number of years after gaining a licence that the basic in the ROR are covered, plus the OP correctly applied them to the map diagram.

When I watched the video clip I came to the conclusions that the two junctions were not the same layout.  The map was a double lane entry, single exit the video clip was double entry, double exit filtering to single lane. ( I am making an assumption on the double exit as the OP did not appear to do an emergency break nor crash at the exit point). IMO the different conclusion is very important, as people were watching the clip giving a conclusion, but not the underlying information and assumptions of how they came to that conclusion. The OP was looking back at the map not understanding why.

The OP was relying on the painted arrows to form an opinion on the future action of the Golf, my post is asking him to reanalyse the road and figure out if this is correct then to reanalyse his conclusion and figure out if it should change.  From my point of view, this learning point is very important as the arrows have nothing to do with the roundabout.

Everyone who is driving for a while will make a mistake.  It's really important that a driver internalises that reality and tries to spot the other drivers mistakes before it impacts on them.  Being able to do this makes us better and safer drivers but we will continue to makes mistakes ourselves.

J_R wrote: »

the  idiot Golf driver 

 
I don't think that an "idiot label" is appropriate in a learning to drive thread.  Its important to figure out why the other driver did what they did, most have a reason, it may not be a good one, but figuring out the motivation allows us to spot and avoid the bad consequences.

J_R wrote: »

In the video clip the OP did absolutely nothing wrong, he followed the Rules of the Road at all times.  

The thinking should precede the doing.  The OP's expectation was that the driver would only (< the important bit) take the 3rd exit and plotted a course through the roundabout on that basis. The three of us are in agreement that if the Golf driver was reading the road correctly, knew the junction or at least their exit point and obeyed the ROR that they would have entered into the roundabout 'off' the left lane. Technically once in lane, the Golf driver retained the option to take the 2nd exit.  If the OP adjusts the thinking bit the the clip would not have a "taking the 3rd exit" comment.

J_R wrote: »

 to get back to the left hand side of the road

Being very, very, very pedantic here but, as this is about lane discipline using the description 'side' is not beneficial, the road has a number of driving lanes, single and double and single/double lanes changing into a double/single lane all of which have left sides.

J_R wrote: »

On approach the Golf driver should have kept left,  obey the very basic road position rule,  Keep Left  Instead he changed lanes unnecessary.   In the clip, irrespective whither there were one or two exits he should have stayed left. 

Agreed, however the driver may not know the junction nor their exit point and the learning point is that OP should not assume that the Golf will only take the 3rd exit.
It's possible that the driver learned to drive in Europe and if not concentrating selects the right lane, or indeed any other number of reasons. Most likely one, IMO is the Golf driver is not sure if they need the 2nd or the 3rd. So they will enter the right lane, they should turn off their indicator but don't, they look at the directional signage on the roundabout, pick the correct exit and proceed into it.  While this is happening the OP is gaining 2+ car lengths in reaching the roundabout.  While its possibly that the OP is in the Golfs blind side when they mirror check, it's just as likely that the Golf is focused on exiting thinking the OP is still a car length behind their car they don't check correctly at all. 

The Golf driver turned off the right and on the left indicator while out of shot the OP needs to consider if that should have changed their assumption and conclusion.

J_R wrote: »

 If there was a collision more than likely the Golf driver would be charged with dangerous driving, the OP perhaps a much minor due care and attention.  The cops like to cover all bases.  But more than likely that charge would be dismissed in court

With a collision, unless either party are injured, they would be both having to plead with the Garda to attend the scene.  If the local Gardai are busy they will ask that cars are moved off the carriageway and that both parties exchange insurance information and then call into a station to report the incident.  If they attend the scene it would be to take a statement off each driver (this is the investigation bit that can be done at the station) and request that any missing documents are presented at a station, they will tell each driver that as they were not witnesses to the events leading up to the crash that it's up to the drivers to sort the insurance claims themselves, including finding independent witnesses.  They may caution each driver before a statement is given as driver may make an admission to the Garda which can be used in a prosecution. I am assuming that without an admission from either party or independant witness statements that no prosecution could occur ('could' but would not be taken as, both would have to turn up in court to give evidence against the other, it would be viewed as a waste of Garda resources and the courts time). The OP's description of why they believed the right lane was 3rd exit only would work against them, as would once on the roundabout failing to give way to traffic on the right, the Golf had priority when exiting the 2nd junction plus the Golf was indicating (per the clip) as exiting so the OP would have to justify missing that.

A little off topic but how do you come to the conclusion that the Golf driver's  actions amounted to dangerous driving?

J_R wrote: »

The OP did nothing wrong in undertaking

Wrong is a subjective statement in this context.  The thinking should precede the doing.  The OP's expectation was that the driver would only (< the important bit) take the 3rd exit, on this basis the OP was wrong by undertaking
eg with the following layout should the OP undertake: starting with a straight two lane road, then layout change gives the right lane has an option to continue straight or diverge via a new lane to their right, after layout/junction the driver in the right lane has no option but to merge into the left lane.

( note I am assuming that the 3rd junction of the roundabout leads to accessing the N7 heading in the opposite direction).
Consideration of an other drivers motivation, would have resulted in the OP looking at the junction as a whole and anticipates that at some stage a driver will make a mistake.  That mistake could have been that they incorrectly selected the right lane or it could have been that they used the correct lane and half way round the roundabout decided they were going somewhere else.

J_R wrote: »

OP continue  using roundabouts as you did in the clip, just keep an eye out for idiots.
Expect the unexpected as someone said.

IMO We all start off making assumptions on a drivers future actions ( based on what they should do if following the ROR) as we gain experience we realise skill is spotting when not to assume that other driver is  following the ROR.  The OP is trying to improve, so help is by pointing out the information the OP needed to gather from the road (first problem), and from other drivers (problem: both made a mistake) and how to build that into the conclusion and subsequent action.  

Walter2016

Brycen Tasteless Ringer wrote: »

And? Two incoming lanes and a single exit lane at "12 oclock". Similar scenario, no explicit road markings/signage, same country, same rule.

May i suggest you read the rules of the road. In particular the pages on roundabouts

You are entirely incorrect and if this is how you understand roundabouts, you will have an accident and it will be your fault.

Only if there are two distinct lanes on entry and exit can both lanes be used to exit and in that situation, you stay in the lane you entered the roundabout on.

Its actually extremely simple and the OP is100% correct.

J_R

Glass fused light wrote: »

J_R your signature has information about a motoring institute, does that advocate advanced or defensive driving?

The OP has come here with a question on roundabouts.  The original question was had a diagram of a roundabout and reference to a video clip.  I am presuming that as the OP has been driving successfully for number of years after gaining a licence that the basic in the ROR are covered, plus the OP correctly applied them to the map diagram.

When I watched the video clip I came to the conclusions that the two junctions were not the same layout.  The map was a double lane entry, single exit the video clip was double entry, double exit filtering to single lane. ( I am making an assumption on the double exit as the OP did not appear to do an emergency break nor crash at the exit point). IMO the different conclusion is very important, as people were watching the clip giving a conclusion, but not the underlying information and assumptions of how they came to that conclusion. The OP was looking back at the map not understanding why.

The OP was relying on the painted arrows to form an opinion on the future action of the Golf, my post is asking him to reanalyse the road and figure out if this is correct then to reanalyse his conclusion and figure out if it should change.  From my point of view, this learning point is very important as the arrows have nothing to do with the roundabout.

Everyone who is driving for a while will make a mistake.  It's really important that a driver internalises that reality and tries to spot the other drivers mistakes before it impacts on them.  Being able to do this makes us better and safer drivers but we will continue to makes mistakes ourselves.


 
I don't think that an "idiot label" is appropriate in a learning to drive thread.  Its important to figure out why the other driver did what they did, most have a reason, it may not be a good one, but figuring out the motivation allows us to spot and avoid the bad consequences.



The thinking should precede the doing.  The OP's expectation was that the driver would only (< the important bit) take the 3rd exit and plotted a course through the roundabout on that basis. The three of us are in agreement that if the Golf driver was reading the road correctly, knew the junction or at least their exit point and obeyed the ROR that they would have entered into the roundabout 'off' the left lane. Technically once in lane, the Golf driver retained the option to take the 2nd exit.  If the OP adjusts the thinking bit the the clip would not have a "taking the 3rd exit" comment.



Being very, very, very pedantic here but, as this is about lane discipline using the description 'side' is not beneficial, the road has a number of driving lanes, single and double and single/double lanes changing into a double/single lane all of which have left sides.




Agreed, however the driver may not know the junction nor their exit point and the learning point is that OP should not assume that the Golf will only take the 3rd exit.
It's possible that the driver learned to drive in Europe and if not concentrating selects the right lane, or indeed any other number of reasons. Most likely one, IMO is the Golf driver is not sure if they need the 2nd or the 3rd. So they will enter the right lane, they should turn off their indicator but don't, they look at the directional signage on the roundabout, pick the correct exit and proceed into it.  While this is happening the OP is gaining 2+ car lengths in reaching the roundabout.  While its possibly that the OP is in the Golfs blind side when they mirror check, it's just as likely that the Golf is focused on exiting thinking the OP is still a car length behind their car they don't check correctly at all. 

The Golf driver turned off the right and on the left indicator while out of shot the OP needs to consider if that should have changed their assumption and conclusion.



With a collision, unless either party are injured, they would be both having to plead with the Garda to attend the scene.  If the local Gardai are busy they will ask that cars are moved off the carriageway and that both parties exchange insurance information and then call into a station to report the incident.  If they attend the scene it would be to take a statement off each driver (this is the investigation bit that can be done at the station) and request that any missing documents are presented at a station, they will tell each driver that as they were not witnesses to the events leading up to the crash that it's up to the drivers to sort the insurance claims themselves, including finding independent witnesses.  They may caution each driver before a statement is given as driver may make an admission to the Garda which can be used in a prosecution. I am assuming that without an admission from either party or independant witness statements that no prosecution could occur ('could' but would not be taken as, both would have to turn up in court to give evidence against the other, it would be viewed as a waste of Garda resources and the courts time). The OP's description of why they believed the right lane was 3rd exit only would work against them, as would once on the roundabout failing to give way to traffic on the right, the Golf had priority when exiting the 2nd junction plus the Golf was indicating (per the clip) as exiting so the OP would have to justify missing that.

A little off topic but how do you come to the conclusion that the Golf driver's  actions amounted to dangerous driving?



Wrong is a subjective statement in this context.  The thinking should precede the doing.  The OP's expectation was that the driver would only (< the important bit) take the 3rd exit, on this basis the OP was wrong by undertaking
eg with the following layout should the OP undertake: starting with a straight two lane road, then layout change gives the right lane has an option to continue straight or diverge via a new lane to their right, after layout/junction the driver in the right lane has no option but to merge into the left lane.

( note I am assuming that the 3rd junction of the roundabout leads to accessing the N7 heading in the opposite direction).
Consideration of an other drivers motivation, would have resulted in the OP looking at the junction as a whole and anticipates that at some stage a driver will make a mistake.  That mistake could have been that they incorrectly selected the right lane or it could have been that they used the correct lane and half way round the roundabout decided they were going somewhere else.



IMO We all start off making assumptions on a drivers future actions ( based on what they should do if following the ROR) as we gain experience we realise skill is spotting when not to assume that other driver is  following the ROR.  The OP is trying to improve, so help is by pointing out the information the OP needed to gather from the road (first problem), and from other drivers (problem: both made a mistake) and how to build that into the conclusion and subsequent action.  

Hi

BUT the OP made no mistake.

Glass fused light

iMO In the actions of driving no mistake was made. But I don't think you and I need to agree or debate on what we think we think the OP is thinking*, so I will leave it to the OP to come back if necessary.

*(I think I have an extra think in there)

job seeker

Glass fused light wrote: »

iMO In the actions of driving no mistake was made. But I don't think you and I need to agree or debate on what we think we think the OP is thinking*, so I will leave it to the OP to come back if necessary.

*(I think I have an extra think in there)

I read your previous post.. So many questions. 3 years ago I done my test. Went through the roundabout the same way and onto the slip road. The only difference that day was that there was no fool exiting the 2nd exit in the lane the golf was in. I see on closer inspection the V.T. that the arrows are there for the last right turn before the roundabout.

However in the video, I entered in the left lane. As I have time and time again and exited at the 2nd exit.. This weekend I stood at that roundabout watching the cars. Cars taking the 1st or 2nd exit took the left land. Cars taking the 3rd exit took the lane the golf was in. There wasn't one horn blown in the 60 minutes I stood there observing the traffic flow.

Glass fused light

[QUOTE=job seeker;101231866
]I read your previous post.. So many questions.
[/QUOTE]

Questions: learn by asking 'why', all parents loooove it.

job seeker wrote: »

3 years ago I done my test. Went through the roundabout the same way and onto the slip road. The only difference that day was that there was no fool exiting the 2nd exit in the lane the golf was in.

(Consider yourself lucky, I had to contend with two horses playing tag with me on my test.)

I am assumimg(<NB) that if you went through the roundabout the way you did with a tester, with the Golf on the road, you may have been marked down on observation at the exit point. But from the clip it did not look as if any emergency breaking was needed. Its think of the roundabout as a number of sequential independent junctions and not assuming that the other driver even will stay in lane let alone obey the other ROR. It only takes the one incident to wipe your no-claim bonus.

job seeker wrote: »

I see on closer inspection the V.T. that the arrows are there for the last right turn before the roundabout.

I had picked up that you know the ROR and it was that you were missing the importance of the T junction, that is a really important bit. You also now know that someone ahead of you driving in that right lane may pull into your lane unexpected as they want the roundabout not the right turn.

job seeker wrote: »

There wasn't one horn blown in the 60 minutes I stood there observing the traffic flow.

Unless its an outrageous mistake, horn blowing is not a good indication of poor driver behaviour, as the horn blowing driver may have missed the other drivers mistake while a different driver would have made the adjustment to compensate for the poor driving.
Its a goodish anger management tool, if you are hands-on for longer than a beep beep, you should consider slowing down and taking a deep breath, and then taking another deeper one. I learned this tecnique after my horn stopped working and I decided not to get it fixed until the next service, I learned a lot that month (mostly about myself).

job seeker wrote: »

However in the video, I entered in the left lane. As I have time and time again and exited at the 2nd exit.. This weekend I stood at that roundabout watching the cars. Cars taking the 1st or 2nd exit took the left land. Cars taking the 3rd exit took the lane the golf was in. There wasn't one horn blown in the 60 minutes I stood there observing the traffic flow.

That roundabout gives access to two different directions the N7, the possibility always remains, that for various reasons a driver will move into the right lane and take the 2nd exit. Yes, they should be in the left lane if going to the 2nd or the right if going for the 3rd, and if they were lost heading for the 2nd they could have gone the whole way around and exited after the loop, but shoulda, woulda, coulda; people make mistakes. You will have build that possibility into your information and assumptions on other driver's future actions.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

You are talking complete rubbish. That is your opinion and is based on your interpreation of the rules of the road.

The rules do not state anything about having two distinct lanes on entry and exit. It gives an example.

How can you know if an exit has two lanes on a roundabout? Either a) you've been on the roundabout previously b) you can see the exit or c) signage tells you. Otherwise you cannot possibly know!

Why else would there a merge arrow on a single lane exit?

Walter2016 wrote: »

May i suggest you read the rules of the road. In particular the pages on roundabouts

You are entirely incorrect and if this is how you understand roundabouts, you will have an accident and it will be your fault.

Only if there are two distinct lanes on entry and exit can both lanes be used to exit and in that situation, you stay in the lane you entered the roundabout on.

Its actually extremely simple and the OP is100% correct.

Dravokivich

Walter2016 wrote: »

May i suggest you read the rules of the road. In particular the pages on roundabouts

You are entirely incorrect and if this is how you understand roundabouts, you will have an accident and it will be your fault.

Only if there are two distinct lanes on entry and exit can both lanes be used to exit and in that situation, you stay in the lane you entered the roundabout on.

Its actually extremely simple and the OP is100% correct.

I just looked up the pdf I was given of ROR by the RSA upon booking my test recently. It makes no statement as above by yourself.

The only comments made are as follows:

* If taking any exit from the 6 O'Clock to the 12 O'Clock position, motorists should generally approach in the left hand lane.
* If taking any exit from the 12 O'Clock to the 6 O'Clock position, motorists should generally approach in the right hand lane.

For exiting at 12 O'clock its saying you can enter from 2 lanes. It makes no reference to the setup of the exit other than it's position.

job seeker

Glass fused light wrote: »

Questions: learn by asking 'why', all parents loooove it.

Yup..

Glass fused light wrote: »

(Consider yourself lucky, I had to contend with two horses playing tag with me on my test.)

Yikes... :eek:

Glass fused light wrote: »

I am assumimg(<NB) that if you went through the roundabout the way you did with a tester, with the Golf on the road, you may have been marked down on observation at the exit point..... But from the clip it did not look as if any emergency breaking was needed. Its think of the roundabout as a number of sequential independent junctions and not assuming that the other driver even will stay in lane let alone obey the other ROR. It only takes the one incident to wipe your no-claim bonus.

Most likely yes

No, you see as the car went out of view in the video, I nearly instantly noticed that he was indicated to take the 2nd exit. Now I did considered laying rubber and trying to get out to the 2nd exit before him (it was an old geezer) I thought better not risk it.. Ya know?

I suppose as motorists we must expect the unexpected.

Glass fused light wrote: »

I had picked up that you know the ROR and it was that you were missing the importance of the T junction, that is a really important bit. You also now know that someone ahead of you driving in that right lane may pull into your lane unexpected as they want the roundabout not the right turn.

I have a fair grasp of the ROR road alright, however It's situations like the video, That makes you more aware.

Ya, the T-junction. Always thought the road signs was for the roundabout for some reason. (I suppose I thought the roundabout was more important. But now that I know that they are for the T-junction. It;s something to watch out for..

Glass fused light wrote: »

Unless its an outrageous mistake, horn blowing is not a good indication of poor driver behaviour, as the horn blowing driver may have missed the other drivers mistake while a different driver would have made the adjustment to compensate for the poor driving.
Its a goodish anger management tool, if you are hands-on for longer than a beep beep, you should consider slowing down and taking a deep breath, and then taking another deeper one. I learned this tecnique after my horn stopped working and I decided not to get it fixed until the next service, I learned a lot that month (mostly about myself).

I see what you mean, now in the video I didn't blow the horn as I just slowed down and let them passed. As I wasn't sure if the golf driver had actually indicated right when entering the roundabout or not, But if I knew he did indicate, I'd have laid on it for a short period.

Glass fused light wrote: »

That roundabout gives access to two different directions the N7, the possibility always remains, that for various reasons a driver will move into the right lane and take the 2nd exit. Yes, they should be in the left lane if going to the 2nd or the right if going for the 3rd, and if they were lost heading for the 2nd they could have gone the whole way around and exited after the loop, but shoulda, woulda, coulda; people make mistakes. You will have build that possibility into your information and assumptions on other driver's future actions.

The thing is though, you seem very easy going/forgiving to people who can't drive. Like "people make mistakes" thing? Jaysus. I think if you can't drive you shouldn't be on the road. It's these mistakes that end up killing other road users. You should be fully aware of whats happening around you at all times and when we get to that age and when we can't use a roundabout properly. It's time to hang up the keys..

Glass fused light

job seeker wrote: »

. Now I did considered laying rubber and trying to get out to the 2nd exit before him (it was an old geezer) I thought better not risk it.. Ya know?

Don't fall for that impulse.

The Golf driver could clip you and then you have to hope that the witnesses supported your version of events, that the Gardai don't want to progress it, and that your insurance company don't want to to settle against you, but they load your premium for the 2 years that the driver has to claim personal injury, and no other insurer will quote, and to add to the fun the driver to your left joined the bumper party too......

Have I convinced you that you made a good choice yet or do I keep going..

Its likely that you will be involved in an accident at some stage but the longer it can be avoided the better and the least amount of injury possible is better still.


Pratice this for the next time:
Keep both hands attached to the steering wheel.
So one deep breath in, hold for a second, and slowly let it out.
Another deeper breath, please, and slowly let it out.
Now repeat this catchphrase
"Well off you go, away with you." *



By now you should be feeling calmer,and the offending vehicle should be moving on.



* This is a good catchphrase to practice, particularlyly if you think you may need to play a clip in court, or if you transport the under 5's generation.

job seeker wrote: »

I see what you mean, now in the video I didn't blow the horn as I just slowed down and let them passed. As I wasn't sure if the golf driver had actually indicated right when entering the roundabout or not, But if I knew he did indicate, I'd have laid on it for a short period.

Choices, choices.
With an aggressive driver you could end up in game of 'chicken' with the driver deliberately hitting the breaks or speeding after you. With a startled one who knows. Factor that in too.

job seeker wrote: »

The thing is though, you seem very easy going/forgiving to people who can't drive. Like "people make mistakes" thing? Jaysus. I think if you can't drive you shouldn't be on the road. It's these mistakes that end up killing other road users. You should be fully aware of whats happening around you at all times and when we get to that age and when we can't use a roundabout properly. It's time to hang up the keys..

This is a learning section, so thanks, and dont think of any why reason I did not fix the horn.

But seriously, give yourself time and you will spot the drivers that are a little bit off in their behaviour, just be happy to pull back and take your time or overtake if its safe to do that. At least the Golf driver has figured out that the indicators are more than optional extras, and gave you advanced warning.




Choices, choices.......
Sorry I could not resist
youtube . com/watch?v=5cU6TxpG_p4
Not to be recommended as the ROR have not been followed.

J_R

Hi,

Its raining so can not go lie by the pool, so will add :

The reason I posted on this thread was because the OP was being accused of somehow being in the wrong because of the actions of the VW Golf.

In the test you can not be marked due to the actions of anybody else, only your own actions/reactions.

When I was an instructor one of my favourite lessons used to be "Roundabouts". I enjoyed showing my pupils how simple they were , and debunking the nonsensical myths and fables they might hold.

Take the VW Golf in the clip. He/she had a clear path in the left lane, they should have simply stayed in that lane and once on the roundabout they would have priority all the way through and off at the exit. No problem whatsoever. (AS the OP did - correctly, fair play to the man).

Instead they go into the inside lane. Now before they exit they must yield to ALL traffic in the outside lane. This could include not only the OP but other traffic that had entered at other entrances. It is immaterial how and at what entrance they joined the roundabout or how many lanes at the exit, they must obey the ROTR on lane changing. They must yield to traffic in any lane they cross and to traffic already in the lane they are joining.

So why on earth would someone use the right lane for straight ahead when there is a perfectly good free left lane. (Unless they were an idiot )

Last point. Good drivers watch for traffic wishing to exit from the inside lanes and yield. I taught my pupils to do this, but to be careful as this is not always possible - or safe.

Essential skills

Going ahead

No signal necessary on approach.
Approach in the left-hand lane. If you can’t use the left-hand lane (because, for example, it’s blocked), use the lane next to it.
Keep to the selected lane on the roundabout.
Check your mirrors, especially the nearside exterior mirror.
Indicate left after you’ve passed the exit just before the one you intend to take.

grogi

job seeker wrote: »

Hi all, so I passed my driving test and everything is grand. After nearly been 2 accident in the last 4 months. I'm just wondering about a roundabout.

roundabout diagram.png

So in this diagram I come to a roundabout which is a two lane, left lane (takes 1st and 2nd exit) I am marked as a yellow square and my route is a purple line. The yellow dots are the indicator to show I'm taking second exit.

The red car is in the outside lane, so they are indicating to take the 3rd exit. The blue line is the way I was thinking they were going, until they try to take the 2nd exit. Same exit as me. represented by a green line.

The car changed departures the lane without making sure it is safe to do so.

That's okay, when the 2nd exit is a 2 lane road. which some are. However, in this case the 2nd exit was a one lane road.

It's not OK. This is the part of problem in Ireland... When entering the RB how the hell can you know how many lanes the road you intend to exit to has?

grogi

Glass fused light wrote: »

I would argue that the other car was not in the wrong lane as they entered the junction on a two lane road, the roundabout is a two lane road and they could not see over the mound to the exit point, they are not wrong to presume that they will exit on a two lane road (Irish drivers will mostly be disappointed on that one )

Assume nothing...

Once on the roundabout and exiting they have the right to expect that where the exit point of the two lane road filters into a single lane that they have priority as the give way rule applies.

One car stays in lane, the other changes the lane...

Yes, the give way rules apply, but opposite to what you say.

yermanoffthetv

An image of the junction just make the situation easier to understand.First off can I just say that whole junction is a hot mess. In the picture above the OP is coming on the R287(Pearse Rd) and heading to the slip road to the N4 (bottom left). That slip road is a single lane and as its the second exit the Golf driver is most certainly in the wrong.

Had the pleasure of commuting to Galway back in the days of the magic roundabout in Terryland so Ive seen it all when it come to people doing stupid and or dangerous things. In situations like roundabouts its best just to be prepared somebody will cut you off or fail to indicate properly (so many people don't even bother! :mad:)

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

You are mistaken. The golf driver is perfectly entitled to exit in the second exit.

Why are there merge arrows on single lane exits (on roundabouts with similar layouts)?

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

An image of the junction just make the situation easier to understand.First off can I just say that whole junction is a hot mess. In the picture above the OP is coming on the R287(Pearse Rd) and heading to the slip road to the N4 (bottom left). That slip road is a single lane and as its the second exit the Golf driver is most certainly in the wrong.

Had the pleasure of commuting to Galway back in the days of the magic roundabout in Terryland so Ive seen it all when it come to people doing stupid and or dangerous things. In situations like roundabouts its best just to be prepared somebody will cut you off or fail to indicate properly (so many people don't even bother! :mad:)

yermanoffthetv

Brycen Tasteless Ringer wrote: »

You are mistaken. The golf driver is perfectly entitled to exit in the second exit.

Why are there merge arrows on single lane exits (on roundabouts with similar layouts)?

No he is not perfectly entitled to exit in the second exit from the right lane, Its really not that hard.RSA videohttps://vimeo.com/8553732

J_R

Brycen Tasteless Ringer wrote: »

You are mistaken. The golf driver is perfectly entitled to exit in the second exit.

Why are there merge arrows on single lane exits (on roundabouts with similar layouts)?

The Golf is in the inside lane. To exit he must change lanes. Can you explain why the very basic lane changing rules do not apply to him.

ROTR

Changing traffic lanes
Don't move from one traffic lane to another without good reason.
You must give way to traffic already in the lane into which you are moving.

If the above is insufficient do a "Google" for "lane changing"


Also if he somehow has a special dispensation how do other traffic in the outside lane know this and yield to him.

grogi

Brycen Tasteless Ringer wrote: »

You are mistaken. The golf driver is perfectly entitled to exit in the second exit.

Sure the golf driver is entitled. Nobody said 'you shall not pass exit'. However the way needs to be given to the cars already in the left name.

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Do you not understand what "merge" means? The golf should give way (i never said otherwise), however he is still allowed take the second exit.

Explain why there is merge arrow on a single lane exit, coming from a two lane entry?

J_R wrote: »

The Golf is in the inside lane. To exit he must change lanes. Can you explain why the very basic lane changing rules do not apply to him.

ROTR


If the above is insufficient do a "Google" for "lane changing"


Also if he somehow has a special dispensation how do other traffic in the outside lane know this and yield to him.