Lions 2017 [MOD WARNING IN OP]

Cookiemunster

kilns wrote: »

Wrong, it is no coincidence that some of Irelands best performances in recents times have been when Payne is in the team.  He is our defensive leader and we would not have conceded some of the soft tries against Scotland if he was there. 
He is our best 15 and our best 13 (even though its not his natural position) and he will end up starting the tests in NZ in either one of those positions

We finished 3rd with only 2 wins in 2016 with Payne playing. Him being missing isn't the reason we didn't win the 6N.

AbusesToilets

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

You categorically stated that Payne was a better player than Earls. That's nonsense. Payne is a very dependable centre and a good fullback, if a bit iffy under the highball. Earls was probably our best back over the course of the 6 nations and caused the opposition no end of trouble when he actually got the ball. This is reflected in the number of defenders beaten and line breaks he made. Infact, according to accenture he was, statistically speaking, the best winger in the tournament. To dismiss his try scoring and ratio out of hand is just ignorance. Earls might not be everybody's cup of tea but he's a top notch winger and criminally underrated.

Jaysus, you're serious. Figured the last post was a piss take.

CMOTDibbler

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Well Heaslip is injured and the poster who would have come on screaming obscenities and curses at how the worthless showpony's career is over because he wasn't picked for the lions has been banned.

kilns wrote: »

If fit he would have travelled

I was referring to this:

flangemeistro wrote: »

Imagine the Leinster heads exploding tomorrow afternoon if Ryan and O'Mahony travel ahead of the consistent, indestructible, unquestionable, wolverine like Heaslip.

I'll actually snortle on my refreshment of choice. Just wait for the pages and pages of hyperbole and hysteria with a dash of knee jerk topped off with imho.

No exploding heads. And I had put the special plastic down on the floor to protect it and all...

Webbs

Clegg wrote: »

There's a lack of top quality outside backs for the Lions. I'd have Hogg bordering on it for his running game, but that's about it. Maybe Payne if he plays fullback as well.

Liam Williams, Nowell, Watson all are exciting players when they have ball in hand. They both create things from nothing. Williams and Watson defensively are spot on, Nowell maybe not so much but he has an X factor about him.
North after getting a kick up the arse after the Scotland game certainly started to get back on track with his game. He obviously has the potential to light up any game, whether he fulfills it we will have to see.

I assume Hogg will be full back but I will be worried about him being targeted defensively. Maybe with Williams or Watson or both on the wings they are both very comfortable full backs (Williams best position) that will shore up the defense frailties.

All in all I think could be an class exciting back 3 from those 5

TomsOnTheRoof

kilns wrote: »

Wrong, it is no coincidence that some of Irelands best performances in recents times have been when Payne is in the team. He is our defensive leader and we would not have conceded some of the soft tries against Scotland if he was there.
He is our best 15 and our best 13 (even though its not his natural position) and he will end up starting the tests in NZ in either one of those positions

Payne couldn't have done much about the Scottish try from the line out could he? Also, it was our lack of penetration and inability to play flat that cost us against Scotland. We were predictable in that we sat deep and tried to use our back row as one out runners. Likewise, it was our inability to deal with the Welsh line speed and our predictability in going forward that cost us in Cardiff. We've had trouble getting the ball wide for a while now and Payne playing centre hasn't changed that.

awec

kilns wrote: »

I wonder if Heaslip was fit would he have gone instead of Moriarty, I suspect so
I think Full Back is a very weak area too, Halpenny is not the player he was and it was a Welsh call to pick him and I would not trust Hogg against NZ defensively.  I could see Payne starting there by the 2nd test

Don't think so, Moriarty is versatile and Heaslip isn't.

7oakse wrote: »

Gutted for Ringrose. Unlikely to be a starter but a much better option than JJ. 
Everyone is talking about JJ as this potent try scorer. He's scored 16 tries in 33 tests. 
3 v. a Scotland team that were playing touch 
5 v. Italy in the 2016 & 2017 6 nations 
2 v. Fiji. 
I know you can only play what is in front of you but he flatters to deceive. Ringrose completely outplayed him in the 6N's.

What has Ringrose done to demand inclusion? Sometimes you'd think Ringrose is the greatest player in the world right now reading this forum.

JJ ahead of him is the correct pick, he has a great chance of being the test 13.

kilns

Cookiemunster wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

Wrong, it is no coincidence that some of Irelands best performances in recents times have been when Payne is in the team.  He is our defensive leader and we would not have conceded some of the soft tries against Scotland if he was there. 
He is our best 15 and our best 13 (even though its not his natural position) and he will end up starting the tests in NZ in either one of those positions

We finished 3rd with only 2 wins in 2016 with Payne playing. Him being missing isn't the reason we didn't win the 6N.

The te

Cookiemunster wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

Wrong, it is no coincidence that some of Irelands best performances in recents times have been when Payne is in the team.  He is our defensive leader and we would not have conceded some of the soft tries against Scotland if he was there. 
He is our best 15 and our best 13 (even though its not his natural position) and he will end up starting the tests in NZ in either one of those positions

We finished 3rd with only 2 wins in 2016 with Payne playing. Him being missing isn't the reason we didn't win the 6N

The team was decimated with injury in 2016. I am referring to this year and yes he would have made a huge difference.  Earls is a good solid winger and has served Ireland well but he far from top class

kilns

Cookiemunster wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

Wrong, it is no coincidence that some of Irelands best performances in recents times have been when Payne is in the team.  He is our defensive leader and we would not have conceded some of the soft tries against Scotland if he was there. 
He is our best 15 and our best 13 (even though its not his natural position) and he will end up starting the tests in NZ in either one of those positions

We finished 3rd with only 2 wins in 2016 with Payne playing. Him being missing isn't the reason we didn't win the 6N.

The te

Cookiemunster wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

Wrong, it is no coincidence that some of Irelands best performances in recents times have been when Payne is in the team.  He is our defensive leader and we would not have conceded some of the soft tries against Scotland if he was there. 
He is our best 15 and our best 13 (even though its not his natural position) and he will end up starting the tests in NZ in either one of those positions

We finished 3rd with only 2 wins in 2016 with Payne playing. Him being missing isn't the reason we didn't win the 6N

The team was decimated with injury in 2016. I am referring to this year and yes he would have made a huge difference.  Earls is a good solid winger and has served Ireland well but he far from top class

kilns

Cookiemunster wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

Wrong, it is no coincidence that some of Irelands best performances in recents times have been when Payne is in the team.  He is our defensive leader and we would not have conceded some of the soft tries against Scotland if he was there. 
He is our best 15 and our best 13 (even though its not his natural position) and he will end up starting the tests in NZ in either one of those positions

We finished 3rd with only 2 wins in 2016 with Payne playing. Him being missing isn't the reason we didn't win the 6N.

The te

Cookiemunster wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

Wrong, it is no coincidence that some of Irelands best performances in recents times have been when Payne is in the team.  He is our defensive leader and we would not have conceded some of the soft tries against Scotland if he was there. 
He is our best 15 and our best 13 (even though its not his natural position) and he will end up starting the tests in NZ in either one of those positions

We finished 3rd with only 2 wins in 2016 with Payne playing. Him being missing isn't the reason we didn't win the 6N

The team was decimated with injury in 2016. I am referring to this year and yes he would have made a huge difference.  Earls is a good solid winger and has served Ireland well but he far from top class

irishbucsfan

The te

evolving tipperary

Can we get another 'The te'

sydthebeat

the te?

oh The te !

irishbucsfan

Anybody for the last of The te?

Subpopulus

Is this what you're on about?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Te_of_Piglet

In The Te of Piglet, the Piglet character of the Winnie-the-Pooh books explains the Chinese concept of Te, meaning 'power' or 'virtue'. Hoff elucidates the Taoist concept of 'Virtue - of the small'; though, he also uses it as an opportunity to elaborate on his introduction to Taoism. It is written with many embedded stories from the A. A. Milne Winnie the Pooh books, both for entertainment and because they serve as tools for explaining Taoism.

In the book Piglet is shown to possess great power - a common interpretation of the word Te, which more commonly means Virtue - not only because he is small, but also because he has a great heart or, to use a Taoist term, Tz'u. The book goes through the other characters - Tigger, Owl, Rabbit, Eeyore and Pooh - to show the various aspects of humanity that Taoism says get in the way of living in harmony with the Tao.

AbusesToilets

Anything to be said for another The te?

Subpopulus

All in favour of changing the thread title to Lions 2017: The te say aye

AbusesToilets

Aye

kilns

Dam internet haha

D14Rugby

I feel a bit for van der flier, he's had a brilliant season and it seems really unfortunate that a play of his quality will only get their first tour at 27 at least.

Buer

D14Rugby wrote: »

These are the guys I'd consider a bit lucky to be picked. And why.
Mako Vunipola, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, Kyle Sinckler, (all four of these are prone to giving away stupid penalties and against the all blacks you can't have that. Would definitely have had healy over marler but I guess the other three get in on no body really behind them bar maybe Ryan but he's still new to the international scene.)
Iain Henderson, Alun Wyn Jones, Courtney Lawes (I can see why Henderson was picked but would have launchbury and j gray over the other two, maybe r gray over Henderson too bit touch and go on that though)
Sam Warburton, Justin Tipuric, Billy Vunipola, Ross Moriarty (Moriarty was alright in the 6 Nations but I guess he's there down to doubts over Heaslip's fitness. There other 3 will do I guess for midweek matches, no idea how Warburton got the captaincy sexton, farrell, Murray, best, all better options for it )

Dan Biggar (finn Russell should be here instead)
Jonathan Davies, Jared Payne, Ben Te'o (I have no idea how any of these 3 made it unless Payne is being brought as a full back. Huw Jones unlucky to miss out here as is Ringrose who had an far better six nations than jd or te'o)
George North, Tommy Seymour, (North has been poor for a while, Seymour will do for midweeks I guess. Maitland, may and zebo unlucky here)
Leigh Halfpenny (been poor pretty much since the last tour, again zebo unlucky)

A lot of those guys are completely legitimate and reasonable calls by the coaching team. I get the impression it wouldn't matter who he called up.

Huw Jones tore his hamstring off the bone in the 6N. Not sure how you expected him to be involved.

kilns

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

kilns wrote: »

Wrong, it is no coincidence that some of Irelands best performances in recents times have been when Payne is in the team.  He is our defensive leader and we would not have conceded some of the soft tries against Scotland if he was there.
He is our best 15 and our best 13 (even though its not his natural position) and he will end up starting the tests in NZ in either one of those positions

Payne couldn't have done much about the Scottish try from the line out could he? Also, it was our lack of penetration and inability to play flat that cost us against Scotland. We were predictable in that we sat deep and tried to use our back row as one out runners. Likewise, it was our inability to deal with the Welsh line speed and our predictability in going forward that cost us in Cardiff. We've had trouble getting the ball wide for a while now and Payne playing centre hasn't changed that.

It was not the try from the line out.  It was the two tries which Hogg got which were the issue from a defensively alignment point of view and Payne usually marshalls our defence very well.
But it seems you have issues elsewhere within the Irish set up and a blind spot for certain players

awec

I swear if Gatland picks Henshaw and Payne in midfield the tiny shred of respect I have for him will evaporate instantly and he'll come close to joining Lord Nucifora on my list of people who are not to be trusted and must be actively opposed in all they do.

Clegg

Webbs wrote: »

Clegg wrote: »

There's a lack of top quality outside backs for the Lions. I'd have Hogg bordering on it for his running game, but that's about it. Maybe Payne if he plays fullback as well.

Liam Williams, Nowell, Watson all are exciting players when they have ball in hand. They both create things from nothing. Williams and Watson defensively are spot on, Nowell maybe not so much but he has an X factor about him.
North after getting a kick up the arse after the Scotland game certainly started to get back on track with his game. He obviously has the potential to light up any game, whether he fulfills it we will have to see.

I assume Hogg will be full back but I will be worried about him being targeted defensively. Maybe with Williams or Watson or both on the wings they are both very comfortable full backs (Williams best position) that will shore up the defense frailties.

All in all I think could be an class exciting back 3 from those 5

I hadn't thought of Williams. So that's two good options. He's a better FB but more than capable of playing on the wing.

Maybe I'm doing these lads a disservice but I just don't rate them as highly as their counterparts in the New Zealand side. A lot of good players in the back 3 but only one or two I'd be confident in saying are great.

Christy42

D14Rugby wrote: »

I feel a bit for van der flier, he's had a brilliant season and it seems really unfortunate that a play of his quality will only get their first tour at 27 at least.

I still have no idea why Warburton is there. As a reserve I can kinda see but as a nailed on starter this far out?

Reduces the ability of the back row a lot imo. Aside from that, kind of hoped Ringrose would be a bolter but not too pushed about a lack of inclusion.

Larbre34

Is Leinster the single biggest club representation at 5? Anyone done the maths?

awec

Larbre34 wrote: »

Is Leinster the single biggest club representation at 5? Anyone done the maths?

Saracens have more.

Larbre34

awec wrote: »

Saracens have more.

Sorry yes, I see 6 written elsewhere

pickarooney

irishbucsfan wrote: »

https://twitter.com/mikephillips009/status/854644950113419264

Archer and minime

Buer

awec wrote: »

Don't think so, Moriarty is versatile and Heaslip isn't.



What has Ringrose done to demand inclusion? Sometimes you'd think Ringrose is the greatest player in the world right now reading this forum.

JJ ahead of him is the correct pick, he has a great chance of being the test 13.

Gatland specifically namechecked Ringrose and Launchbury as being very unlucky not to make the squad.

Ringrose has outperformed Joseph this season. I don't think there's too many who would argue against that. He was well on top when they faced one another. I didn't think either would make the squad though.

They've got it right by picking Payne in his best position.

molloyjh

awec wrote: »

Don't think so, Moriarty is versatile and Heaslip isn't.

Maybe someone here can explain this one to me. Is Moriarty really that versatile? I mean sure he's played with different numbers on his back, but does how he play really vary that much with each positional change? For me Heaslips biggest asset is the thing some here are saying he doesn't have; versatility. He can change his game depending on whats required despite the fact that the number on his back doesn't change. So how is Moriarty more versatile a player in practice?

Obviously this is all academic given Healsips injury, it's just one of those ones that has me confused.