The Future of Paige

Monokne

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Apparently, Del Rio has told WWE he is finishing up as soon as his opt out clause is active in September. Wonder will Paige try to get out of her contract now too or wait it out in the hope they release her first.

They've put a lot of equity in building her up into a star through Total Divas, Tough Enough and their regular programming. I don't know why they'd release her. Nor do I know why she'd want to go. Earn $50k for TNA for the 6 months or a year they're still in existence being watched by 250,000 people on POP having dreadful matches against Mia Yim or Maria Kanellis? :eek: Doesn't sound like a good idea.:)

Chain Smoker

Monokne wrote: »

They've put a lot of equity in building her up into a star through Total Divas, Tough Enough and their regular programming. I don't know why they'd release her. Nor do I know why she'd want to go. Earn $50k for TNA for the 6 months or a year they're still in existence being watched by 250,000 people on POP having dreadful matches against Mia Yim or Maria Kanellis? :eek: Doesn't sound like a good idea.:)

24 years old and from a family of lunatics, wouldn't put it past her.

Could also see Del Rio's response being "this girl is f*cking crazy" and dumping her pretty soon after.



The extremely favourable terms of Del Rio's exit (i.e. not having to do the 90 days and whatnot) does lend a lot of credence towards that crazy figure that was being thrown about when he returned (was it 2 million? it was definitely in the ballpark of what Rollins and Reigns were getting)

gnfnrhead

Monokne wrote: »

They've put a lot of equity in building her up into a star through Total Divas, Tough Enough and their regular programming. I don't know why they'd release her. Nor do I know why she'd want to go. Earn $50k for TNA for the 6 months or a year they're still in existence being watched by 250,000 people on POP having dreadful matches against Mia Yim or Maria Kanellis? :eek: Doesn't sound like a good idea.:)

She's been there for about 5 or 6 years and is treated like she is Alicia Fox level of talent. Considering she has been wrestling her entire life I could see her wanting to be treated better. Money wise, she would be crazy to leave. But I don't think anyone ever accused her family of being sane. In ring wise, she can do a lot better that she is currently getting.

As for your TNA comments, they've made it pretty obvious you don't even watch the show and are one of those who still have a LOLTNA mentality so I won't even bother with your "points".

sky88

gnfnrhead wrote: »

She's been there for about 5 or 6 years and is treated like she is Alicia Fox level of talent. Considering she has been wrestling her entire life I could see her wanting to be treated better. Money wise, she would be crazy to leave. But I don't think anyone ever accused her family of being sane. In ring wise, she can do a lot better that she is currently getting.

As for your TNA comments, they've made it pretty obvious you don't even watch the show and are one of those who still have a LOLTNA mentality so I won't even bother with your "points".

Paige hasnt been treated badly by wwe she was pushed to the moon the minute she debuted. Yes when charlotte,sasha and becky came up she took a backseat. she was still treated better then alica. i dont think its a coincidence that her push took a backseat when she got with del rio.

beakerjoe

sky88 wrote: »

Paige hasnt been treated badly by wwe she was pushed to the moon the minute she debuted. Yes when charlotte,sasha and becky came up she took a backseat. she was still treated better then alica. i dont think its a coincidence that her push took a backseat when she got with del rio.

Ah she was pushed strong but they really hadn't a clue what to do with her. Her feuds had no direction for the first year to be fair. I always felt she was sloppy in the ring and while she had experience, she was still immature as a performer.

sky88

beakerjoe wrote: »

Ah she was pushed strong but they really hadn't a clue what to do with her. Her feuds had no direction for the first year to be fair. I always felt she was sloppy in the ring and while she had experience, she was still immature as a performer.

The women in fairness have always been directionless even now that its better but still just bizarre at times how they are pushed or not.

SlickRic

Paige is just overrated. Vastly so. She also seems to have a greatly heightened opinion of herself.

She's not likeable as a babyface, and when she heels it up, it's 'go away' heat.

She's no loss at all.

CastorTroy

Think I said before, but I think the main problem with Paige was she was brought up as some sort of savior of women's wrestling at a time when it was all about the divas and not about the wrestling. So now she's stuck in that mentality when they actually started to make it about the wrestling.

Monokne

gnfnrhead wrote: »

She's been there for about 5 or 6 years and is treated like she is Alicia Fox level of talent. Considering she has been wrestling her entire life I could see her wanting to be treated better. Money wise, she would be crazy to leave. But I don't think anyone ever accused her family of being sane. In ring wise, she can do a lot better that she is currently getting.

As for your TNA comments, they've made it pretty obvious you don't even watch the show and are one of those who still have a LOLTNA mentality so I won't even bother with your "points".

1) She's been on the main roster 2 years and change. :cool:

2) There is no hotbed of women's talent out there that's paying any money, so where specifically is she going to go that she can get much better in ring?

3) I don't watch TNA every week but I do watch the show - Lashley is a great champion. Galloway is a great performer. EC3 should be in the main event picture on Raw right now. What does that have to do with anything? Perhaps rather than dismissing what I said based on a notion you've ascribed to me, you could just address the actual points I made?

My points on TNA were that:
- It's a dying promotion and has been for years. Their revenue doesn't come close to meeting their payroll and the brand is too badly damaged to be rescued.
- Their womens division contains people like Jade, Marti Bell, Madison Rayne, Sienna, Maria and of course who could forget Rebel! None of whom can work. Other than Gail Kim, there's no one on the roster who comes close to the level of the high end women in WWE (Nattie, Bayley, Sasha, Charlotte, Becky).

Are either of those points on TNA demonstrably untrue? I think they're pretty reasonable my friend.

thebostoncrab

I've said it before and I'll say it again; Paige is an ok wrestler. Wrestling your whole life doesn't instantly make you a great wrestler (Hell if it did I'd be an amazing bassist but I'm not!). The problem with Paige is that she believes she is the best and wakes around like she is, but all you need to do is compare her to Becky, Bailey, Sasha, Aska and Charlotte to see that she is not near their level.

She could do with having her ego taken down and spend more time working on her in ring training, even taken off to for awhile to spend more time in NXT.

I agree. I can't remember her having any amazing matches during her time so far with the company.

Also the way she shouts "this is my house" during her matches might be one of my most hated things in wrestling these days :P

x43r0

Deleted User wrote: »

Also the way she shouts "this is my house" during her matches might be one of my most hated things in wrestling these days :P

Agreed - Makes me cringe everytime

Lord TSC

thebostoncrab wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again; Paige is an ok wrestler. Wrestling your whole life doesn't instantly make you a great wrestler (Hell if it did I'd be an amazing bassist but I'm not!). The problem with Paige is that she believes she is the best and wakes around like she is, but all you need to do is compare her to Becky, Bailey, Sasha, Aska and Charlotte to see that she is not near their level.

She could do with having her ego taken down and spend more time working on her in ring training, even taken off to for awhile to spend more time in NXT.

This is the issue though; a year ago, she was the best in the WWE, before the "women's revolution". Then she got eclipsed with the call ups. SO I can imagine it's hard for someone, in such a short space of time, to go from the top person in the company to the 5th or 6th, in terms of ability.

At least for someone like Cena, when people are passing him, they still keep him strong or still let him interact with the others. With Paige...if you're not in the top 3 spots on Raw, you may as well not exist as a woman...

beakerjoe

Paige is very capable but she was never used great by WWE despite her being womens champ

She had a great match with Emma in NXT before her call up and portrayed as a top competitor who was there based on her ability. Theres no doubt she is more than capable of having good-to-great matches.

However when she transitioned to the main roster, she was the victim, like many others from NXT ( Tyler Breeze, Apollo Crews, The Ascension...I could go on) of lazy booking. She was hotshotted into a feud with AJ Lee that had no direction whatsoever and was given zero character development in the first few months. During this time her character struggled with connecting with the audience past her look and her theme music, however she was still arguably the best of a bad bunch.

Her character languished in a sea of bad storylines (remember her “mutual crush nonsense with AJ Lee), and poor matches (herself and AJ Lee didn’t click, while her matches with the Bella’s were sloppy and slow at best).
Like Lord TSC stated earlier, she was eclipsed by Becky and Sasha in ring when they got promoted and Charlotte was pushed more intelligently at times than AJ or Paige ever was, plus the Bella’s improved dramatically (Well Nikki at least). She found herself out of her depth and she never really got a chance to have a good program with anyone besides Charlotte and that story was hurt by the Reid Flair cheap heat promo.

She is now got a lot of things going against her. Her lazy attitude, her association with Del Rio and a WWE creative being lazy at the best of times, Paige has an up hill struggle in my view making it back to the top of either womens divisions.

They should push Summer Rae ahead of her anyway.

leggo

Paige is a good wrestler. She can work. She's always struggled to get over but that's something that's one thing 'clicking' away from being resolved (e.g. Daniel Bryan chanting "yes" after winning a big match). Her problem is that she's lost novelty value with all the women being called up after her, so she seems old hat because she was the first. But that can be fixed easily if creative wants to shine a light on her, or if she comes up with something that's a game-changer the next chance she gets. Like how Dolph Ziggler or Roman Reigns are one effective heel turn from being the hottest act in the company.

WWE would be insane to let her go with so much upside, but they've done it with others before.

Agent Coulson

Paige lacks any kind of character she is just bland and boring I could see her working/getting over in a big way as Sister Abigail if done right.

Riddle101

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Paige lacks any kind of character she is just bland and boring I could see her working/getting over in a big way as Sister Abigail if done right.

I've seen her named been dropped for years but I honestly hate the idea of her being Sister Abigail. At this point she is too well established to just suddenly change character and become Abigail, and it's not like she's ever really shown to be a supernatural entity or anything. How do they explain her not being involved with the Wyatts in the past? It just doesn't fit with her history, or her personality.

Personally I always just believed that Sister Abigail wasn't a person, but more of a false deity created by Bray to manipulate and control people. I never really saw it as them worshiping a person named Sister Abigail, but a goddess or something.

Agent Coulson

Riddle101 wrote: »

I've seen her named been dropped for years but I honestly hate the idea of her being Sister Abigail. At this point she is too well established to just suddenly change character and become Abigail, and it's not like she's ever really shown to be a supernatural entity or anything. How do they explain her not being involved with the Wyatts in the past? It just doesn't fit with her history, or her personality.

Personally I always just believed that Sister Abigail wasn't a person, but more of a false deity created by Bray to manipulate and control people. I never really saw it as them worshiping a person named Sister Abigail, but a goddess or something.

The WWE caring about storyline history when has that ever stopped them.


If they think they can make money out of it they will do it and **** what the fans think or want.

Bounty Hunter

I could actually see a Wyatt angle doing wonders for her but I wouldn't have her as Sister Abigail. Instead just have creepy Bray become infatuated with her, keep showing up for her matches, and cutting promos about her. Say how he sees so much of Sister Abigail in her and how there is so much more to her than what she has shown in the WWE. Almost reference her Anti-Diva character by Bray saying that she is not like all the other women running around the lockeroom.... etc... Paige is kinda freaked out & repulsed by him but has to admit in interview that Bray is right about her not showing all of what she is capable of and that she actually has a darker side. Then have Bray show up after a Paige match and call her over to him. She is reluctant but wants to hear what he has to say then - LIGHTS OUT - and when they return Paige is gone. She then is not seen for a number of weeks, during which time Bray cuts promos about how Sister Paige has seen the light and is learning to unleash her inner demons under his tutelage. At the next PPV have her attach whoever wins the non title Divas feud ongoing after their match and totally destroy them. Have her attire slightly altered and Wyattafied too.

Eventually when Bray's actual sister (I believe she is now training) is ready to be Sister Abigail have Bray just drop her as a meer imitation and that the genuine article has arrived. Built in feud for both.



Obviously apart from the above being potential nonsense it'd also be a problem that shes on Raw but sure when her suspension is up just have her return to Raw and talk about how her contract is almost up too and have her say Steph / Foley will have to give her a big pay bump if they want her to resign which they refuse so she heads to the blue Brand.

Riddle101

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The WWE caring about storyline history when has that ever stopped them.


If they think they can make money out of it they will do it and **** what the fans think or want.

I don't see how they would make money out of it though. At least compared to what she does now. I mean she's one of their most popular divas, and probably sells tons of merchandise.

As far as WWE caring about storyline history goes. I'd like to think that WWE would have better sense than to just throw her into a storyline with Bray Wyatt randomly, with no interaction, or history behind it. Unless they do something like have Bray brainwash her. But if you saying that Paige is Sister Abigail, then she would have been Sister Abigail from the start, and that just doesn't work. She's too well established to make her Sister Abigail. Better to do it with someone relatively unknown.

Agent Coulson

Riddle101 wrote: »

I don't see how they would make money out of it though. At least compared to what she does now. I mean she's one of their most popular divas, and probably sells tons of merchandise.

As far as WWE caring about storyline history goes. I'd like to think that WWE would have better sense than to just throw her into a storyline with Bray Wyatt randomly, with no interaction, or history behind it. Unless they do something like have Bray brainwash her. But if you saying that Paige is Sister Abigail, then she would have been Sister Abigail from the start, and that just doesn't work. She's too well established to make her Sister Abigail. Better to do it with someone relatively unknown.

The WWE and storyline sense doesn't really exist anymore that's gone the way of the Dodo.

If Paige was selling a ton of merchandise she would be on tv every single week.

The money would come from the Wyatt storyline more than Paige herself.

I think Bounty Hunter with his post above has nailed how to get her working with the Wyatts to be honest.

beakerjoe

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The WWE and storyline sense doesn't really exist anymore that's gone the way of the Dodo.

If Paige was selling a ton of merchandise she would be on tv every single week.

The money would come from the Wyatt storyline more than Paige herself.

I think Bounty Hunter with his post above has nailed how to get her working with the Wyatts to be honest.

Zack Ryder was top of the merch sales at one stage, he was one tv now and then and jobbed out most times.

Agent Coulson

beakerjoe wrote: »

Zack Ryder was top of the merch sales at one stage, he was one tv now and then and jobbed out most times.

But he was still on tv even if he was losing.

Paige was only getting on tv once in a blue moon if that before the suspension and even before the so called Diva's revolution.

She has been out of the main picture since the end of Tough Enough in 2015 and even before that she was doing much.

beakerjoe

Agent Coulson wrote: »

But he was still on tv even if he was losing.

Paige was only getting on tv once in a blue moon if that before the suspension and even before the so called Diva's revolution.

She has been out of the main picture since the end of Tough Enough in 2015 and even before that she was doing much.

She was injured before her suspension, hence why she wasnt seen much.

When doing TE, she did have a busy schedule. TE was one thing, Total Divas another, signings and her actual WWE live event schedule. She was a busy girl on top of the grueling WWE travel and work. She may be rebelling a little with Papa Del Rio a bit.

Scavenger XIII

beakerjoe wrote: »

Papa Del Rio

Ok now it's even creepier. :pac:

Monokne

leggo wrote: »

Like how Dolph Ziggler or Roman Reigns are one effective heel turn from being the hottest act in the company.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I think this might have been a quite incredible exaggeration on your behalf, brother ;)

Monokne

beakerjoe wrote: »

Zack Ryder was top of the merch sales at one stage, he was one tv now and then and jobbed out most times.

Not to be a contrarian, but I hope you didn't mean this literally. At no point was Ryder anywhere close to Cena in merch sales. He may have been top 5 at one point though, for sure.

Mr.Nice Guy

I think she has plenty still to offer. She's unique enough that she stands out from all the other women, but I don't think Creative have ever truly figured our her character in any significant way. I can't think of any interesting storylines they've given her in all the years she's been there. I don't think she needs to become a Wyatt or anything too dramatic. I think they just need to let her play a more darker, edgier version of herself.

I'm certain that with a few weeks of hype vignettes featuring her talking about how she was the original woman of NXT , how she was the anti-diva before it became cool etc., I've no doubt she could return to the division and be just as over as any of the women.

If a wealthy Arab had a Ted Turner moment and decided to get into 'rasslin, and offered me the chance to be Eric Bischoff and draw up a list of names for him to go after, as far as women's names are concerned, Paige would be one of the top 3 names I'd want.

Monokne

Even though there are 4/5 women on the roster who consistently have better matches than her and have connected with the audience at a greater level?

Feels like it would be better to build a company around someone who's proven to get over to the level of their push or beyond it, than someone who has never quite gotten there.

To me the issue with Paige is two fold. Firstly, she just isn't very good in the ring. Her mechanics are sloppy and her matches feel closer to the divas of the past decade where it was moves for the sake of moves than the women of today where selling a body part and building a story is very much a part of their matches. Secondly, she just doesn't connect. When you get a glimpse of the real Paige like on the Steve Austin show or Tough Enough, it's easy to see why. She has personality but she's exceptionally juvenile and very scattered. She has that arrogance about her that you'd think would make her a good heel but her look is more babyface and her naivity can be quite endearing. That Austin show was an eye opener. She came off like a 15 year old, desperate to make an impression and show off her personality, but immature enough that she doesn't really know who she is yet. No wonder creative can't keep her straight. Look at Bayley or Charlotte. You see them in a non scripted environment and you know Bayley is a face and Charlotte is a heel. Paige is just strange.

Mr.Nice Guy

It's easy to have consistently good matches when you're working with very talented performers. Paige's work in NXT was quite good. I wonder how good Sasha would be seen as if she had to work with Nikki and Brie Bella, Alicia Fox, Tamina Snuka constantly over several months. (Also I have found Sasha to be quite sloppy in her matches since getting to the main roster)

I can understand that her mechanics come across as unpolished at times. I agree with that. I definitely don't agree she lacks an ability to connect, though. I think she has plenty of natural charisma. If you look at the number of followers she has on Twitter (1.5m +) it exceeds many top male stars like Kevin Owens, Cesaro, Sami Zayn (even Seth Rollins).

If I look back at women's wrestling over the past ten years I think only AJ is ahead of her in terms of star power and appeal, though perhaps Sasha will top her (and I think Bayley will become bigger than her).

Monokne

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

It's easy to have consistently good matches when you're working with very talented performers. Paige's work in NXT was quite good. I wonder how good Sasha would be seen as if she had to work with Nikki and Brie Bella, Alicia Fox, Tamina Snuka constantly over several months. (Also I have found Sasha to be quite sloppy in her matches since getting to the main roster)

I can understand that her mechanics come across as unpolished at times. I agree with that. I definitely don't agree she lacks an ability to connect, though. I think she has plenty of natural charisma. If you look at the number of followers she has on Twitter (1.5m +) it exceeds many top male stars like Kevin Owens, Cesaro, Sami Zayn (even Seth Rollins).

If I look back at women's wrestling over the past ten years I think only AJ is ahead of her in terms of star power and appeal, though perhaps Sasha will top her (and I think Bayley will become bigger than her).

Sasha isn't perfect. But she's a lot better than Paige.

Twitter followers don't mean anything. She's been a famous public figure for a long period of time and has exposure through various platforms (Tough Enough, Total Divas). Plus she's a hot chick. When I said she doesn't connect, I meant she doesn't resonate substantially with the audience. I can not recall a single match or story she's been involved with either as a heel or a babyface where the people were DESPERATE to see her lose or DESPERATE to see her win after he debut in WWE. Can you?

Her reactions are mild. People don't know how to take her. There's no money in that.

She doesn't hold a candle to Bayley. Like I'm sorry but this isn't a debatable point and it seems like such a silly hill to die on. In three appearances on the main roster she's gotten bigger reactions than anything Paige did outside her Raw debut, and it would be fair to estimate that she's sold about 10 times more merch while never being on TV than Paige has in her entire WWE career. I think people forget that in 2016, the money you draw for a company is still the best actual barometer of your stardom and they've sold a ****load of hugger shirts before most of their audience has even familiarised themselves with Bayley.

Not to mention, the genuine, emotional reactions for Bayley in Brooklyn last year and this year eclipse anything Paige has ever achieved and will ever achieve as well.

Look. Paige is a pretty girl and with her lineage in the business, I agree with the broader point that it feels like she should at some point have achieved more than she has and that maybe she can click better as a performer in the future(I hope & think she will). But let's not compare her to performers who have left her in the dust a long, long time ago. It just makes her look worse.

Mr.Nice Guy

Monokne wrote: »

Sasha isn't perfect. But she's a lot better than Paige.

Twitter followers don't mean anything. She's been a famous public figure for a long period of time and has exposure through various platforms (Tough Enough, Total Divas). Plus she's a hot chick. When I said she doesn't connect, I meant she doesn't resonate substantially with the audience. I can not recall a single match or story she's been involved with either as a heel or a babyface where the people were DESPERATE to see her lose or DESPERATE to see her win after he debut in WWE. Can you?

Her reactions are mild. People don't know how to take her. There's no money in that.

She doesn't hold a candle to Bayley. Like I'm sorry but this isn't a debatable point and it seems like such a silly hill to die on. In three appearances on the main roster she's gotten bigger reactions than anything Paige did outside her Raw debut, and it would be fair to estimate that she's sold about 10 times more merch while never being on TV than Paige has in her entire WWE career. I think people forget that in 2016, the money you draw for a company is still the best actual barometer of your stardom and they've sold a ****load of hugger shirts before most of their audience has even familiarised themselves with Bayley.

Not to mention, the genuine, emotional reactions for Bayley in Brooklyn last year and this year eclipse anything Paige has ever achieved and will ever achieve as well.

Look. Paige is a pretty girl and with her lineage in the business, I agree with the broader point that it feels like she should at some point have achieved more than she has and that maybe she can click better as a performer in the future(I hope & think she will). But let's not compare her to performers who have left her in the dust a long, long time ago. It just makes her look worse.

I agree Sasha is better than Paige. But Sasha has gotten to work with a higher class of opponent - and lately not very well.

Her Twitter followers are a guide to her ability to connect and they show she has connected with a lot more people than many men. Using her hotness as a way to brush that aside seems bizarre. As for exposure, it's not like she has had more than Seth Rollins. And I'm not sure when the measuring stick for substantially resonating with the audience became subjective views on Creative's storylines, as opposed to, you know, actual measurement of those who follow her life and all? By sticking the title on her the night she debuted there was little incentive to be desperate to see her win or lose, since it was obvious at that point she was going to be in the title picture no matter what. That's a Creative issue rather than a Paige issue.

As for her reactions being mild, again I disagree. She was the most over woman on the roster when AJ left. And for people not knowing how to take her, again this is a Creative issue when most of the women, bar Becky Lynch, often flip-flop between face and heel turns. Bellas anyone? What is Nikki this week?

I don't know who's suggesting she holds a candle to Bayley. I said I thought Bayley would become bigger than her (though I will say citing the Brooklyn crowd is basically like highlighting the post post-Mania crowd that reacted to Paige on her debut). Anyway tis a bit silly to compare a character like Bayley to Paige since one is clearly garnered towards kids (ker-ching) while another is more of an anti-heroine character.

I will repeat again when I look back at women's wrestling over the past ten years I think only AJ is ahead of her in terms of star power and overall resonance with the masses. Who do you think tops her? Sasha could potentially, though I find her character difficult to figure out since she comes across as very heelish to me. Bayley I say again I think will top her (and AJ, and should be the most successful woman ever if they're smart) but over the past decade no one else comes close.

I'll put it like this: Gail Kim is a better wrestler than Paige. I think we can all agree on that. But if she returned next month I think the response she would get would be modest at best. But if Paige left next month and returned years down the line I am certain she would get a great reaction and would connect much better than Gail. It's because of her charisma.

Riddle101

Agent Coulson wrote: »

The WWE and storyline sense doesn't really exist anymore that's gone the way of the Dodo.

If Paige was selling a ton of merchandise she would be on tv every single week.

The money would come from the Wyatt storyline more than Paige herself.

I think Bounty Hunter with his post above has nailed how to get her working with the Wyatts to be honest.

I realize that WWE storylines don't make sense a lot of the time, but even this is a bit of a stretch. Either way, I don't think they Bray and Paige need to be put together. Both have established themselves well enough on the main roster that they're better off alone.

A Brad Maddox Guy

I think Paige has suffered for similar reasons as AJ when she moved to the Divas Division - the talent around her just wasn't good enough, the characters non-existent or 2-dimensional and many fans still had the attitude of 'Divas = P!ssbreak'. The reason nobody can remember a good main roster Paige feud is because her opponents where made up of the Funkadactyls, Alicia Fox & Tamina. She didn't even get a proper feud with the Bellas until the awful Women's Revolution story as they were two busy having a terrible feud with each other. So essentially Paige debuted and AJ left. Paige beats a bunch of nobodies, crowds interests dwindle. AJ returns - quickly beaten and put in an awful 'frenemies' angle. Then nothing for a few months until the Women's Revolution which was always leading to a mega push for Charlotte. Then she got injured and returned to nothing until this suspension. Honestly don't think she ever stood a chance at living up to the hype with booking like that.

Funnily enough I think now is when she has the most chance of getting over again since people have become invested in a few different female characters, none of which has she had a proper singles feud with. All it takes is one good angle and people will care again as she is/was quite popular to begin with. Which is impressive when you consider NXT has evolved a lot since she was on it.

She has a great look imo, is a decent wrestler and is still very young. Worth keeping in mind that she's the youngest female on the main roster so has plenty of time to keep learning. I've been disappointed in her WWE career so far but still think both her and WWE would be mad to part ways so early into it.

Lastly she has flip-flopped between face & heel more times than Brie Bella does during a match. As Omackeral will tell you that doesn't help anyone.

CastorTroy

A Brad Maddox Guy wrote: »

Lastly she has flip-flopped between face & heel more times than Brie Bella does during a match. As Omackeral will tell you that doesn't help anyone.

So you suggest pairing her with Big Show and give them both title runs?

leggo

Monokne wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I think this might have been a quite incredible exaggeration on your behalf, brother ;)

Nah not at all, I stand by it! Every reaction we have to them is down to our fatigue at how they've been used, their performances are fine in a vacuum. 99% of reactions in WWE are based on usage over performance, and the exceptions to the rules are the godawful ones that stick out (Khali comes to mind for example) who aren't effective even when given the sun and moon.

It's not Roman's fault he was given a huge push before he'd clicked as the full package, he took the gig like anyone else would. Same with Dolph or Bray never winning the big one, they just did what they were told. You could go on.

A Brad Maddox Guy

CastorTroy wrote: »

So you suggest pairing her with Big Show and give them both title runs?

$$$$$$ :pac:

Monokne

leggo wrote: »

Nah not at all, I stand by it! Every reaction we have to them is down to our fatigue at how they've been used, their performances are fine in a vacuum. 99% of reactions in WWE are based on usage over performance, and the exceptions to the rules are the godawful ones that stick out (Khali comes to mind for example) who aren't effective even when given the sun and moon.

It's not Roman's fault he was given a huge push before he'd clicked as the full package, he took the gig like anyone else would. Same with Dolph or Bray never winning the big one, they just did what they were told. You could go on.

I can see Roman being a big time heel no problem. That's what the people want. But Ziggler just isn't seen by the audience at that level anymore, not even close. That's why his match at Summerslam played before a symphony of silence. He's just a guy in the middle who spent the year putting Baron Corbin over and even laid down for Heath Slater. I'm not suggesting it would be a bad idea to turn him heel. It's what I'd do and I suspect it may be where they're going. But no matter the creative, he's not going to be this white hot heel. He's well past the point where he'll ever be seen at that level.

leggo

Monokne wrote: »

I can see Roman being a big time heel no problem. That's what the people want. But Ziggler just isn't seen by the audience at that level anymore, not even close. That's why his match at Summerslam played before a symphony of silence. He's just a guy in the middle who spent the year putting Baron Corbin over and even laid down for Heath Slater. I'm not suggesting it would be a bad idea to turn him heel. It's what I'd do and I suspect it may be where they're going. But no matter the creative, he's not going to be this white hot heel. He's well past the point where he'll ever be seen at that level.

It depends what you do, though, it's all perspective. Just having him be all, "I'm bitter and hate the fans now, what did that ever get me anyway?!" (which is probably what they'll do) will do nothing for him as, you're right, his brand has been damaged and fans just won't accept him. But a complete re-imagination of who he is and what he does that makes sense for his character and clicks with the audience and their perception of him...that could change things. Think how much potential we saw, for example, with Roman when he came out and said "I'm not a good guy, I'm not a bad guy, I'm the guy". INSTANTLY we were all like "that's money", until they flubbed it by not letting him play that character and go back to being a superman babyface. Dolph joining The Club, Dolph leading his own nWo-style stable with henchmen and a solid gimmick that clicks with 2016 as nWo/DX connected in the 90's, Dolph in a 'legend killer' type gimmick.

When talent is there, there's always the opportunity to get over with the right imagination. It's like Arn Anderson (I think) said to Steve Austin as The Ringmaster: "You'll take longer to get over, but when you get over, you'll stay over." Creative is a beast unto itself, but talent with the right creative will always connect and Dolph, Reigns and Paige all have bundles of raw talent. They just need to connect with who they are as a performer and milk that.

Monokne

I can see how vividly your imagination is working on this one and that you really see it, I just fundamentally disagree. It's DOLPH ZIGGLER. I don't think you can get someone who's been defined at such a low level over at such a high one. It just never works. Jack Swagger winning the elimination chamber and challenging Del Rio at Wrestlemania is an example of this. R Truth randomly main eventing a PPV against John Cena. Rikishi's big heel turn. MABLE's big heel turn. Bob Holly against Brock. Sheamus in the last year. And of course the best example of all, Ron Garvin getting the NWA title in the 80's.

We're in an era where drawing money is almost a lost art, so I'm not saying they can't do it - ultimately it doesn't really matter so they could make him top heel. Just that it's not going to get over at the same level as if you did it with Reigns or Cena or even Ambrose. He's DOLPH ZIGGLER. The dye is cast. The people will always see it as "oh, they're giving Dolph the big shove now? Dolph? Now?" just like they did at Summerslam even after the good promo work in the buildup. Can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

leggo

I agree we're not going to agree. But to give counter examples: you'd have said the exact same thing after the amount of times they passed over CM Punk as a top guy, The Miz main evented WrestleMania (and was over enough to do so at the time) after years of mediocrity, Big E Langston, Kofi, Festus, Mark Henry's Hall of Pain (12 years after he fathered a hand!). Talent plus the right creative can get over no matter what they've been given in the past. It isn't always so, and you've given great examples of when it's been done badly, but it can be done!

Blue_Dabadee

I think Paige is just average overall by today's standards.

If she came in during post-Trish/Lita era, she would be above average like Beth Phoenix, Natalya and Melina.

Monokne

leggo wrote: »

I agree we're not going to agree. But to give counter examples: you'd have said the exact same thing after the amount of times they passed over CM Punk as a top guy, The Miz main evented WrestleMania (and was over enough to do so at the time) after years of mediocrity, Big E Langston, Kofi, Festus, Mark Henry's Hall of Pain (12 years after he fathered a hand!). Talent plus the right creative can get over no matter what they've been given in the past. It isn't always so, and you've given great examples of when it's been done badly, but it can be done!

I disagree firmly re Punk. After his turn in 2009, there were times he was treading water but he was a very strong heel. He'd lose a lot on PPV but it was to guys like Show or Rey. I don't ever remember him doing jobs for One Man Band or putting over the latest big green guy from developmental like Corbin. Bear in mind that was Zigglers spot for 3 full months.

The others are all examples of people who you can very reasonably say have been low on the cards and have been both pushed and also connected at a relatively decent level. Mark Henry in particular was someone who got over to a degree I would not have thought realistically achievable. But none of them have been real needle movers and I don't think any were the hottest acts in the company at the given times.

The Miz thing though...c'mmoooon. That's dirty pool. Even Mike's mom wouldn't try and give him any credit for being in the Wrestlemania main event. He was the third wheel on the Rock/Cena angle, and a weak one at that. And that's coming from someone who was pleased to see him get the shove at that time. Daniel Bryan, CM Punk, hell even (and especially) Michael Cole were hotter heels who would've meant more in that spot (albeit marginally more because the 3rd man really didn't matter for the angle) that year.

Coming full circle though, I think we can agree that a heel turn and a strong, serious presentation would do Ziggler the world of good. I can see him as an effective number 2 or 3 heel on Smackdown.

ShagNastii

Can anyone confirm the length of contract Paige signed for. I've heard 6-7 years in debates on this matter. That shocks me. Did they sign her for that? And if so, why would they do it?


Lengthwise what timescale are superstars signing for nowadays?

Looper007

CastorTroy wrote: »

Think I said before, but I think the main problem with Paige was she was brought up as some sort of savior of women's wrestling at a time when it was all about the divas and not about the wrestling. So now she's stuck in that mentality when they actually started to make it about the wrestling.

The hype was unbelievable for Paige, I never could get behind it cause I never thought she was anything special. I think her look definitely won her a lot of fans, lets be honest she's the type of woman a lot of die hard wrestling fans would love to have, the punky goth pale looking girl. The documentary made about her family also bought about this myth she was a legend on the indy scene.

I think it definitely didn't help pushing her to the main roster and giving her everything straight away imo, without her having a feud or two before her winning the title. For a good two years after that everything was built around her, and she was probably the most popular woman's wrestler during that time. I think that will definitely inflate anyones ego and I think it did a girl in her early 20's. She then began to lose everything that made her stand out, she basically gave up playing her character and became everything she was fighting agaisn't, although I never fully believed she totally got behind the Anti Diva thing. Then once in NXt the Women became a lot better, she started to get overshadow by Charlotte, Sasha and Becky. She should have been part of that Revolution but she instead she seemed old hat even at 23 years of age at the time.

The rumours behind the scenes of her been a pain in the ass backstage, behaving badly around fans, partying a lot and I don't think her dating Del Rio has gone down well either. Plus I think the fact she's been overshadowed by Sasha's and Charlotte's certainly must be a knock to her after been the main focus for years, she's been unused for months now. I think injuries also have caught up with her.

I think she still have a future at WWE if she wants one, maybe change her character up a bit, actually show some passion in the ring like she wants to be there and show the audience why she was rated in the first place. Maybe a year or two away from WWE (she's only 24), on the indies improving her craft might do her a world of good. Maybe do a bit of modelling and acting too. It just seems far too much for her at his stage in her life, she seems stuck in a rut to me.

Monokne

I haven't read anything concrete regarding the length of Paige's contract from Meltzer, Keller or Johnson and if they don't have it, I can't imagine there's any legitimate information out there.

Moneymaker

Think I remember Dave mentioning it was until at least 2019.

Paige is massively over-rated imo. Sloppy in the ring, takes a lot of stupid and unnecessary bumps(she's 24 and her body is breaking down already). Creative hasn't helped her at all mind.

Sasha hasn't impressed me lately either. Her promos aren't very good and she too easily "corspes". Her character is "the Boss". Act like it. She's a natural heel.

Becky is miles better then the pair of them.

J. Marston

Charlotte is the best out of the lot of them. She's great.

Reddit says that Meltzer says that she's probably done with WWE: "Looking really negative right now about her returning... She's probably done with the company."

https://www.reddit.com/r/SquaredCircle/comments/5198ve/dave_meltzer_on_paige_looking_really_negative/

Looper007

Moneymaker wrote: »

Think I remember Dave mentioning it was until at least 2019.

Paige is massively over-rated imo. Sloppy in the ring, takes a lot of stupid and unnecessary bumps(she's 24 and her body is breaking down already). Creative hasn't helped her at all mind.

Sasha hasn't impressed me lately either. Her promos aren't very good and she too easily "corspes". Her character is "the Boss". Act like it. She's a natural heel.

Becky is miles better then the pair of them.

Becky is great but WWE have always seen her as the Ringo of the four in NXT, even in NXT she wasn't given much of a character. Sadly misused for me in WWE and is only there to put over the other female wrestlers I rate more.

Sasha is at her best as a heel, and I'm hoping she wins the title back from Charlotte, turns heel and have Bayley chase her for it until next years WM. Sasha always has a bad problem doing unnecessary bumps, its becoming worse since she hit the main roster. I think the massive build for her since her move from NXT is wearing her down a little. But she still had better matches then Paige.

CastorTroy

I think the other woman the ball was really dropped with was Emma. She came up to the main roster worse than Paige as nothing more than a comedy act that flopped. Then of course there was her shoplifting.
Any word on when she's due back?

Monokne

Per Mr St Laurent on MLW radio, Paige is claiming that WWE head of talent relations Mark Carrano advised her a while back that if she did not break up with ADR, she would be fired.

I can absolutely buy that he hinted it, and obviously the company made it plane how they felt about the relationship by putting them on split brands, but it is a real stretch to believe he would outright say that. They would be absolutely ripe for a major lawsuit if he did. Reminds me of the Rick Rude/Vince McMahon conversation that formed such a huge part of the steroid trial in 1994.