Michael Street Development Granted

Jamie2k9

http://www.wlrfm.com/news/local/75108-planning-granted-for-major-shopping-development-at-michael-street.html

Merge if there was a previous topic.

Max Powers

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

http://www.wlrfm.com/news/local/75108-planning-granted-for-major-shopping-development-at-michael-street.html

Merge if there was a previous topic.

Great stuff, hopefully next stage moves along nicely too

Hoffmans

Nama & fine Gael politicians developing together , something stinks!

BBM77

Hoffmans wrote: »

Nama & fine Gael politicians developing together , something stinks!

I think what stinks is they are taking credit for getting to this stage. What they did in reality is very debatable. Sure if you even read the article it say “NAMA’s function is to realise the greatest return to the taxpayer”. Getting planning permission for the site increases the sites value, they are just doing their job and what they planned to do all along. So what exactly Cllr. Cummins did to deserve sticking his name on it I would love to know.

Saying that it is great news and exactly what the city centre needs. Fingers crossed there will be no appeals.

Bluezar

Brendan McCann still around objecting to stuff? Hopefully he lets this one goes as the city needs these jobs badly!

Max Powers

BBM77 wrote: »

I think what stinks is they are taking credit for getting to this stage. What they did in reality is very debatable. Sure if you even read the article it say “NAMA’s function is to realise the greatest return to the taxpayer”. Getting planning permission for the site increases the sites value, they are just doing their job and what they planned to do all along. So what exactly Cllr. Cummins did to deserve sticking his name on it I would love to know.

Saying that it is great news and exactly what the city centre needs. Fingers crossed there will be no appeals.

I think some being a bit too suspicious/cynical on this front, Cummins was mayor when this push kicked off..he is probably the councillor with his name closest to it, his name, not FG.my opinion would be the council did most the work to get to this stage and it is highly unlikely nama would have done this without council developing plans, pushing it, etc.so credit deserved primarily to council and some to Cummins.maybe we will find out exactly who did what but that is unlikely.

MRnotlob606

Lots of historical building remains are in the area. Should be preserved.

looksee

Hopefully there will be some serious archaeology done in the area. Awaits with interest.

Harry Palmr

Bluezar wrote: »

Brendan McCann still around objecting to stuff? Hopefully he lets this one goes as the city needs these jobs badly!

Not heard a peep from him for years, presumably as nothing was being built!

Anyway great news, the donuting of Waterford has been a massive strategic failure of the last 20 years.

looksee

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Not heard a peep from him for years, presumably as nothing was being built!

Anyway great news, the donuting of Waterford has been a massive strategic failure of the last 20 years.

There is a verb 'to donut'? What does it mean?

Harry Palmr

The city development has come around the edges - Williamstown/Ardkeen, Six Cross Roads, Ferrybank (cough) etc rather than in the middle.

Max Powers

Harry Palmr wrote: »

The city development has come around the edges - Williamstown/Ardkeen, Six Cross Roads, Ferrybank (cough) etc rather than in the middle.

IMO you are way off thinking there is a doughnut development effect in Waterford, there is very little or nothing in especially 6 cross roads or ferrybank which most would say shouldn't have happened there or should have happened only in city centre.obviously we all know ferrybank empty shopping centre should never have been allowed by kk co.co.having the likes of tesco/aldi etc and some hairdressers, chippers, betting shops do not constitute doughnut development in my opinion anyway.probably next in ardkeen should be in city..can't think anything else.

Harry Palmr

Guess what?

http://www.waterford-today.ie/waterford-today-news/9683-disappointment-for-waterford-again-as-michael-street-planning-deferred-9683.html

There was big disappointment in Waterford city and county council circles at the decision by An Bord Pleanala to defer a decision on the granting of planning permission to a major commercial development in the Michael Street area of Waterford. The multi-million pound development was set to rejuvenate this part of the city which has a large derelict appearance in the middle of its location. The decision was appealed to An Board Pleanala when Waterford City and County Council granted planning permission subject to conditions.

mire

It's a short delay, nothing to panic about imo. Usually, refusals are issued quite quickly; I would interpret a delay as a positive. I would put a large wager on this being granted.

OrlaMurf

Hi everyone, I see there's a lot of work going on around the apple market, there are talks of roofing this area, does anyone have any update on this?

The_Shotz

http://www.munster-express.ie/business/revamped-apple-market-revealed/

TheQuietFella

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Lots of historical building remains are in the area. Should be preserved.

Quite an amount of hysterical looking buildings in the area but for whom or what reason should they be preserved? I'm all for preservation but at what cost to the future of the city? I took a stroll around the town yesterday and it is tired and faded looking. It needs serious investment and it needs great care and thought before any sod is lifted.

Harry Palmr

I agree, the shoddy shop fronts are a genuine eye sore. Dunno how much is being spent on the Apple Market but the council could so worse than spent a couple of million on the application of paint, wood, slate and lentils

TheQuietFella

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I agree, the shoddy shop fronts are a genuine eye sore. Dunno how much is being spent on the Apple Market but the council could so worse than spent a couple of million on the application of paint, wood, slate and lentils

Where specifically to Harry?

I personally think that compulsory purchase orders should be placed on both business and residential properties. Ballybricken/Barrack Street to at least Morrissons Road should be levelled. It has every appearance of inner city and doesn't do the city any favours!

New homes should be built and not like those built on the Manor!
Let's try to construct something with a touch of class about it!
Something in the style of the Edwardian/Georgian era.

Harry Palmr

Where to start? Well Ballybroken is in right state to my eyes esp the electrical retailer on the corner (forgotten it's name) - has anything happened with Besco?

The whole of Johns Street/Michael Street needs work and you'd hope with the Apple market development they'll be a push on there anyway.

BBM77

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Where specifically to Harry?

I personally think that compulsory purchase orders should be placed on both business and residential properties. Ballybricken/Barrack Street to at least Morrissons Road should be levelled. It has every appearance of inner city and doesn't do the city any favours!

New homes should be built and not like those built on the Manor!
Let's try to construct something with a touch of class about it!
Something in the style of the Edwardian/Georgian era.

This thread has just turned bizarre!

Max Powers

BBM77 wrote: »

This thread has just turned bizarre!

I know, some of the posts you'd read on here look like they were written by people born yesterday.

Jambo

Fantastic News for the City An Bord Plenála has granted planning to the Michael Street Development !

https://www.facebook.com/johncumminswaterford/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/247264.htm

BBM77

Jambo wrote: »

Fantastic News for the City An Bord Plenála has granted planning to the Michael Street Development !

https://www.facebook.com/johncumminswaterford/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/247264.htm

Great news and the only change was to add an additional pedestrian entrance. Shows the type of objections that were submitted. Credit to the city and county council for getting the planning correct from their end to speed things through.

StringerBell

Was this the objection the stall traders had yeah?

Jamie2k9

StringerBell wrote: »

Was this the objection the stall traders had yeah?

No some guy from Kilkenny or Carlow I think.

Harry Palmr

Anyone who lives outside the location (say 5 KM) that is subject to PP should be told to **** off. Another reason to extend the City boundary!

Jambo

I seem to remember hearing or reading that once planning was secured the site with planning would be sold as a going concern to the highest bidder !

Can anyone verify this or is it a case that NAMA are going to develop the site ?

Max Powers

Jambo wrote: »

I seem to remember hearing or reading that once planning was secured the site with planning would be sold as a going concern to the highest bidder !

Can anyone verify this or is it a case that NAMA are going to develop the site ?

Think that about right , need private investment, don't know if nama would take on 100% of investment, they have done similar in past elsewhere but its unclear.still, if this was your investment style, its looking well, planning in bag, design, council and nama support,etc etc

BBM77

Pg 18 of the Inspector’s Report http://www.pleanala.ie/documents/reports/247/R247264.pdf

The retail need for the development is questioned. International multiple stores would find other locations in Waterford if local retail spend and footfall warranted their arrival. Wages are lower in Waterford than in the rest of the country and unemployment is higher. There are several empty retail units in the nearby Railway Square development and in the City Square shopping centre. The Broad Street centre has been closed for several years and there are empty units at a centre in Patrick Street and the George Street shopping centre. There are two large unused shopping centres less than a mile away in the Ferrybank area. There are other locations close to Waterford city centre that would be more suitable for the proposed scheme, such as the SDZ at North Quays.

I was having a quick look through the Inspector’s Report and the section above from the appeals submitted is just incredible, I mean WOW. Apparently the Broad Street centre has been closed for years!

azimuth17

The piece from the submitted appeal as quoted by BBM77 is just about typical of the idiocy that has retarded the growth of the city over the past generation. Head banger and silly stuff. We had enough of that to last a life time from a WIT lecturer. But, vacant shopping centres in Ferrybank,where the planning folly of Kilkenny Co Co is obvious, as a rationale for not developing some of the most decrepit and obsolete areas in Waterford city? Lets use them and further undermine the city centre. You could not make it up.

ongarboy

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/waterford-city-shopping-development-gets-green-light-1.2985311

More from today's Irish Times. Regarding the inspectors observation that there were lots of existing units vacant the n Waterford, that makes no difference if they are not fit for purpose for modern retailing. Retailers like Zara and H&M need about 20,000 square feet minimum and poky units in Georges Arcade etc will not do. I imagine the developers already have had discussions with anchor traders to custom build the units to order.

In fairness to City Square, they are attempting to address their dated and tired looking SC by merging units to attract the bigger retailers too. Seeing inner cities rejuvenated is great news which is why I can't understand why local groups object to this new vibrancy and elimination of decades old derelict and ugly buildings!

azimuth17

ongarboy wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/waterford-city-shopping-development-gets-green-light-1.2985311

More from today's Irish Times. Regarding the inspectors observation that there were lots of existing units vacant the n Waterford, that makes no difference if they are not fit for purpose for modern retailing.

There may be a misinterpretation here. From what BBM77 says the comment about "lots of vacant units in Waterford" came from the person who made the appeal and not the Bord Pleanala inspector. That is also my understanding.

azimuth17

For clarity from the inspector's report, it was the third party who made the comments mentioned.

Grounds of Third Party Appeals
6.1.1. Two separate third party appeals have been submitted by local residents. The main
points made may be summarised as follows:
• The site is unsuitable for development due to its location close to several
protected structures including the city wall and tower. Waterford city has a poor
track record of preserving its heritage.
• The scale, bulk, height and mass of the development would dominate the area,
adverse visual impacts.
• The local community includes 6 schools. Concerns about increased traffic
volumes as a result of the development, including HGV and delivery vehicles.
Associated impacts on local amenities due to noise, dust and vibration.
• The retail need for the development is questioned. International multiple stores
would find other locations in Waterford if local retail spend and footfall warranted
their arrival. Wages are lower in Waterford than in the rest of the country and unemployment is higher. There are several empty retail units in the nearby Railway Square development and in the City Square shopping centre. The Broad Street centre has been closed for several years and there are empty units at a centre in Patrick Street and the George Street shopping centre. There are two large unused shopping centres less than a mile away in the Ferrybank area.
There are other locations close to Waterford city centre that would be more
suitable for the proposed scheme, such as the SDZ at North Quays.

StringerBell

Local residents appears to me be more in line with the apple market traders rather someone from Carlow/Kilkenny

Harry Palmr

• The site is unsuitable for development due to its location close to several
protected structures including the city wall and tower. Waterford city has a poor
track record of preserving its heritage.

http://www.wlrfm.com/news/local/88437-waterford-s-viking-triangle-wins-the-great-place-award.html

The Viking Triangle in Waterford has been named "Great Place" winner at the 2017 Urbanism Awards in London.

The Waterford City spot beat off competition from Greenwich Market in London and Leicester Market.

The awards aim to recognise the best, most enduring or most improved cities, towns, streets and places.

They are voted on by leading architects, planners and developers in Ireland and the UK.

The assessors noted that Viking Triangle is more than a traditional physical regeneration initiative and has enhanced the quality of life and competitiveness of local business.

While it's true that one can always do better, I think the City has done pretty well in this regard, the walls and various structures are all still standing and shall remain so.

Hoffmans

Harry Palmr wrote: »

http://www.wlrfm.com/news/local/88437-waterford-s-viking-triangle-wins-the-great-place-award.html



While it's true that one can always do better, I think the City has done pretty well in this regard, the walls and various structures are all still standing and shall remain so.

Local business's in the viking triangle ??
Do they mean the motor tax office, or the parking tickets desk..

azimuth17

They probably mean The Munster Bar, Andy Jordan's, The Reg, Jade Palace,The Olive Tree, Gallweys Cafe, Emilianos, Mcleary's,Kite Design, etc etc.

danjo-xx

I see that its finally got the go ahead subject to a couple of non material alterations.

fricatus

The Irish Times business section over the weekend referred to this development in a short piece about job creation around the country, and mentioned that 480 jobs would be created during construction.

I know now that An Bord Pleanála has approved it, there are no further planning obstacles. However what has to happen next? I presume a developer needs to come up with the finance and then construction can start. How likely is funding for this though? Rightly or wrongly, any investor could point to vacant units about the place (plus the Ferrybank shopping centre) and simply on the basis of the numbers, decide that it's not a runner. Is there money out there now looking for a home in provincial Irish property?

JohnC.

Aren't vacant units in the city centre really just small ones? Ones that major retailers missing from the city wouldn't be interested in. Like how it's taking a pretty big rejig of City Square to create a unit for H&M (if rumours are true) to move in.

fricatus

JohnC. wrote: »

Aren't vacant units in the city centre really just small ones? Ones that major retailers missing from the city wouldn't be interested in. Like how it's taking a pretty big rejig of City Square to create a unit for H&M (if rumours are true) to move in.

You're right, but I'm looking at this from the standpoint of investors in places like London wondering whether to invest their money in York, Inverness, Cardiff, St Albans, etc., and who wouldn't be able to point to Waterford on a map.

Surely when they're running the rule over the figures, they'd just be looking at a report saying that we've X sq ft of vacant space here for a population of 50,000 10 minutes drivetime and 250,000 45 minutes drivetime. Then they go "no, we'll put our money in St Albans because there are a million people within 45 minutes of the place and half the vacant space of that place in Southern Ireland, what was it called again?".

That's the sort of thing I'm wondering about, since these guys only care about yield, and how likely they are to get their money back. I just have the feeling that it's not an attractive investment for the big money, despite the fact that we all know and understand the factors locally why it would more than likely be quite a success.

JohnC.

Retailers won't be looking to choose one location across two countries. They'll surely be looking at as many locations they can get a reasonable profit out of as they can? It's not Amazon looking where to build a datacentre.

Hoffmans

This elephant won't get to the circus
Sure we will have the big empty one in ferrybank when we grab the few acres from the Kilkenniers

BBM77

fricatus wrote: »

The Irish Times business section over the weekend referred to this development in a short piece about job creation around the country, and mentioned that 480 jobs would be created during construction.

I know now that An Bord Pleanála has approved it, there are no further planning obstacles. However what has to happen next? I presume a developer needs to come up with the finance and then construction can start. How likely is funding for this though? Rightly or wrongly, any investor could point to vacant units about the place (plus the Ferrybank shopping centre) and simply on the basis of the numbers, decide that it's not a runner. Is there money out there now looking for a home in provincial Irish property?

fricatus wrote: »

You're right, but I'm looking at this from the standpoint of investors in places like London wondering whether to invest their money in York, Inverness, Cardiff, St Albans, etc., and who wouldn't be able to point to Waterford on a map.

Surely when they're running the rule over the figures, they'd just be looking at a report saying that we've X sq ft of vacant space here for a population of 50,000 10 minutes drivetime and 250,000 45 minutes drivetime. Then they go "no, we'll put our money in St Albans because there are a million people within 45 minutes of the place and half the vacant space of that place in Southern Ireland, what was it called again?".

That's the sort of thing I'm wondering about, since these guys only care about yield, and how likely they are to get their money back. I just have the feeling that it's not an attractive investment for the big money, despite the fact that we all know and understand the factors locally why it would more than likely be quite a success.

Well this is just not the case. If it was then the New York based Marathon Asset Management company that bought city square and are spending millions on it right now would not be doing so. Also, for decades now the estate agents in the city have being saying that the chain stores want to open here but they just can’t find anywhere to open in. The fact that as soon as a unit of large size becomes available in the city it is taken shows this to be true.

I really don’t think that the Ferrybank shopping centre will put anybody of. Anybody in the industry worth their salt would know that it was a ridiculous Celtic tiger project / rates grabbing exercise that should never have been built. Also, there is not actually that many vacant units in the city. And the ones that are it is because they are so small, the owners are hanging on to them hoping that their value will increase or they are awaiting redeveloped.

Harry Palmr

Any word on Marks and Sparks?

BBM77

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Any word on Marks and Sparks?

Could be wrong but can’t see M&S coming. They are not going great in general according to reports so they are hardly going to open more stores.

Deiseen

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Any word on Marks and Sparks?

A guy from City Square (think he manages the centre) was on WLR, he said M and S are looking for really large outlets none of which we have in Waterford or will have, even with the new developments.

Also, M and S is overrated beyond belief. People are finally realising this because they are in big trouble.

Harry Palmr

Not shocked!

iseegirls

Deiseen wrote: »

A guy from City Square (think he manages the centre) was on WLR, he said M and S are looking for really large outlets none of which we have in Waterford or will have, even with the new developments.

Their store in Clonmel is tiny. If they only opened up one with a supermarket, I'll be happy. The clothes aren't anything special.

Gardner

does anyone have a link to the Traffic Management Plan / Study that was submitted with the planning application. 
be interesting to read the plan in regards to construction phase and to when the development becomes operational.