Now Ye're Talking - to an expert on young drivers’ insurance

kupus

Hi just another quick question.

How did two competing insurance companies decide within hours of each other that they would not insure cars older than 10 years?

Is that normal in the insurance industry. I don't know it. But I'm familiar in how the process of decision making goes in big companies.

It's a very big coincidence. Or is that me being my normal naive self.

kavanada

All the excellent posts above and our AMA comes back with a request for a PM from a prospective client!

@kupus, above:- well spotted. I remember hearing it on the news. It was shortly before I had to renew my policy last year. Cartel. They'd make the AIBA lads blush.

This is a rediculous AMA. It's nothing like the Paramedic, Prison Officer, Ships' Captain ones.

Close it.

The returns on the stock exchange and in German Bonds aren't there anymore to pay their shareholders. This is the plain reason the public are being asked to pony up.

Liberty Insurance: Michael

Special Circumstances wrote: »

To be fair, those quotes pale in comparison to the 2.7k for perfect driving record, 9year old 1.4 petrol ford focus owning engineer 35.



Now.... Michael, this is a good one:
That 2.7k was on a policy where I included a 15k non fault claim.


Is there any possibility that there is a loading for people having claimed for accidents that were 100% not their fault?

I've been assured that irish companies are not following the same model as UK insurers, but is there any other explanation for that 2.7k quote for 9 year + full licence, 9 years + ncb, 35, 80hp 1.4l Ford focus?

Hi,

At Liberty, if the claim has been closed as non fault and with no payments made then no loading will apply to your quote.

I'm sure you can appreciate that I cannot comment on other insurers practices, however, if the claim is still open even if likely to be settled as non fault with no payments made, then insurers tend to air on the side of caution and depending on the reserve amount may apply a claims loading and or step back your NCB but in general this would be reversed if the claim then settled as non fault with no payments made.

With regard to the price. I can only point to the generic risk factors which all insurers take in to account i.e. age and value of vehicle, address, occupation (engineers can spend more time on the road thus doing more mileage), penalty points, convictions and so on

Hope this helps answer your question

Thanks,
Michael.

Special Circumstances

Liberty Insurance: Michael wrote: »

With regard to the price. I can only point to the generic risk factors which all insurers take in to account i.e. age and value of vehicle, address, occupation (engineers can spend more time on the road thus doing more mileage), penalty points, convictions and so on

Thanks Michael, back in the noise of a few pages back I made the point that 95% of all electronic ENGINEERS (not spoofers or makey uppy job titles with the word engineer in them) work at a desk or in a lab. They DO NOT install sky dishes. Please tell me the information used to generate job stereotypes is not based on conversations with an elderly ladies knitting circle.

My fictional electronic engineer (I know a few in real life) is likely to spend less time on the road than the fictional 49 year old accountant that the ideal policies are quoted on.

Fictional driving history is absolutely perfect as I have mentioned repeatedly when referring to the 2.7k quote.

Average age of the Irish fleet is somewhere between 8 and 9 years, I picked a 9 year old Focus. The car of the everyman. Are you saying Liberty do not want to insure Joe Average?

Or you don't want anyone from Limerick?

Ian_80

Having a read of this thread and people talking about getting crazy quotes, putting them off the road, etc.

Went onto a website there, put in some fictional details;

34yr old male
Full irish licence
6 years no claims
1.6 Focus Zetec Petrol, 2009, sum insured 10k
No points
I put in that I was a Bank worker
Dublin west address

and I got a quote for €550 ish.....?

People who are saying they cant get a decent quote on a low powered car, either there is more to your driving history that your not telling us or your just not looking hard enough for a decent quote?!

It literally took me 2 min to get that price!!

No point ranting at a certain company, if you dont like their price...just leave them, simple?

Dravokivich

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Thanks Michael, back in the noise of a few pages back I made the point that 95% of all electronic ENGINEERS (not spoofers or makey uppy job titles with the word engineer in them) work at a desk or in a lab. They DO NOT install sky dishes. Please tell me the information used to generate job stereotypes is not based on conversations with an elderly ladies knitting circle.

My fictional electronic engineer (I know a few in real life) is likely to spend less time on the road than the fictional 49 year old accountant that the ideal policies are quoted on.

Fictional driving history is absolutely perfect as I have mentioned repeatedly when referring to the 2.7k quote.

Average age of the Irish fleet is somewhere between 8 and 9 years, I picked a 9 year old Focus. The car of the everyman. Are you saying Liberty do not want to insure Joe Average?

Or you don't want anyone from Limerick?

Another thing to take into account, someone who does call out work, needs to be insured for that already for public liability. If it's with a company Van, the company are paying out insurance on that. An on call engineer isn't going to get much in the back of their Focus used for the family.

Special Circumstances

Liberty Insurance: Michael wrote: »

Hi,

At Liberty, if the claim has been closed as non fault and with no payments made then no loading will apply to your quote.
............
Hope this helps answer your question

Thanks,
Michael.

Reading this again, it doesn't make any sense.

My fictional electronic engineer was fictionally rear ended through zero fault of his own.
He received the fabled fictional average (15k) for this type of incident. That is to say, a payment was made.

Will he be loaded or not?

Bongalongherb

Ian_80 wrote: »

Having a read of this thread and people talking about getting crazy quotes, putting them off the road, etc.

Went onto a website there, put in some fictional details;

34yr old male
Full irish licence
6 years no claims
1.6 Focus Zetec Petrol, 2009, sum insured 10k
No points
I put in that I was a Bank worker
Dublin west address

and I got a quote for €550 ish.....?

People who are saying they cant get a decent quote on a low powered car, either there is more to your driving history that your not telling us or your just not looking hard enough for a decent quote?!

It literally took me 2 min to get that price!!

No point ranting at a certain company, if you dont like their price...just leave them, simple?

Cheapest I could get... Mitsubishi colt gl 1.3 1999 €1,228.05. No penalty points, 9 years no claims bonus, no convictions, nothing, clean as you can get and this is the cheapest I could get. Last year my insurance was €765 thereabouts, the year before it was €451 and now they want €1,228.05.

Your argument is null and void.

Ian_80

Bongalongherb wrote: »

Cheapest I could get... Mitsubishi colt gl 1.3 1999 €1,228.05. No penalty points, 9 years no claims bonus, no convictions, nothing, clean as you can get and this is the cheapest I could get. Last year my insurance was €765 thereabouts, the year before it was €451 and now they want €1,228.05.

Your argument is null and void.

What are you talking about null and void? And its not an argument, its was me going onto a website, putting i these details and getting a figure....try its for yourself with the details I gave you above before getting hostile maybe?

looksee

Rather than using the speculative assumption of miles per year based on occupation, why not get the actual mileage? There would be an issue for first time drivers with first cars, but an estimate could be used there, then overall use an average of two or three years. The job based thing is ridiculous, two identical engineers (say) could in one case be commuting 500 km per week; another might be driving 50 km per week to a job in a local town. If a third engineer is driving on a daily basis for his employment, should he not have commercial insurance?

Liberty Insurance: Michael

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Reading this again, it doesn't make any sense.

My fictional electronic engineer was fictionally rear ended through zero fault of his own.
He received the fabled fictional average (15k) for this type of incident. That is to say, a payment was made.

Will he be loaded or not?

Hi,

At Liberty, he will not be loaded for this claim if the claim was closed by his insurer as non fault and no payment was made by his insurer i.e. the third party insurer paid the claim and not his insurer

Hope this clarifies

Thanks,
Michael.

Liberty Insurance: Michael

looksee wrote: »

Rather than using the speculative assumption of miles per year based on occupation, why not get the actual mileage? There would be an issue for first time drivers with first cars, but an estimate could be used there, then overall use an average of two or three years. The job based thing is ridiculous, two identical engineers (say) could in one case be commuting 500 km per week; another might be driving 50 km per week to a job in a local town. If a third engineer is driving on a daily basis for his employment, should he not have commercial insurance?

Hi,

In most instances and at Liberty Insurance we ask for the annaul mileage. Fully accpet that there would be an issue here for first time drivers but all you can do in this scenario is ask them to estimate their mileage which can then be revisited at renewal

In relation to the occupations challenge. Insurance companies set their prices at a level that covers the risk based on thier own experience. If an insurer has had a poor experience with a certain type of risk (occuaption), their prices will be higher for this group of drivers

I do fully accept your point on two idendical engineers doing substantially different mileage, however, this should be covered off when the annual mileage question is asked at quotation stage and if the client is using his/her vehicle for business use (carrying goods, samples or being paid mileage by their employer) then they need to purchase class two cover (business use) which is more expensive to take in to account the use of the vehicle and the higher mileage requirement

Hope this clarifies your question

Thanks,
Michael.

Special Circumstances

Liberty Insurance: Michael wrote: »

Hi,

At Liberty, he will not be loaded for this claim if the claim was closed by his insurer as non fault and no payment was made by his insurer i.e. the third party insurer paid the claim and not his insurer

Hope this clarifies

Thanks,
Michael.

Cheers Michael.
2.7k though... Still trying to figure out where the PFO trigger is in that profile.

1hnr79jr65

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

Michael as a comparrision when i went to renew my insurance within last 2 weeks i comparred many companies and brokers for best possible value i could get.

I have taken quotes from my spreadsheet of the top 7 companies/supplies of insurance in the irish market as i would see it.
My previous 3 years i was with 123.ie as they gave a good rate with services offered however after a disasterous offer this year i walked ran away from them.

My quote this year based on last years value increased by 45.67%, which is an insane markup.

From calling Liberty i got the following quote €927.15 which is 29.68% of a mark up on last years quote.

I am 34, male, 11 years NCD (even though companies only give 5 or 6 year cert), 9 years hold full Irish license, no penalty points, no convictions, no restrictions on license, no claims, no accidents and i dont drive like a jackass.

I drive a 2008 2.2 CDTI Honda Civic Sport, which yes is a fair bit of a powerful car however i drive a fair bit to commute to work and regulary visit family other side of country.........

So my questions to you Michael are the following:

1. How is it that insurance companies think it is competative to charge such extortionate rate to consumers knowing that austerity, reduction/cuts in wages, increased cost of consumer goods and services (such as childcare and transport food) is good for the insurance industry as it will cause more people to use public transport?

2. Is there an expectation that deregulation will come in from Europe where by a crash in insurance costs will be driven by increased competition, how will like of Liberty survive with insane premiums now if that were to happen?

Oh and just to show a comparrison of my quotes this year, i took Allianz's offer as it was best value for me even though 10.18% more expensive than my best quote with services offered.

Company Quote Total Saving % Diff from 2015
Aviva €1,452.25 49.44% 55.10%
Axa €1,375.00 46.60% 52.58%
123.ie €1,200.00 38.81% 45.67%
AA €931.83 21.20% 30.03%
Liberty €927.15 20.80% 29.68%
Allianz €817.44 10.18% 20.24%
FBD €734.26 0.00% 11.20%

Michael,

As AMA are you going to answer all questions or just carry on cherry picking questions that suits you/your company to answer?

Boards.ie: Niamh

Good morning people!

"So I put it to you" "Would you concede that" "Isn't it true that..." I thought I'd stepped into an episode of Rumpole of the Bailey there (those of you scratching your heads, look it up!)

This is an AMA for asking questions of Michael about young driver's insurance. It's not about the state of the insurance industry or out of court settlements or the loadings on older cars or the cut-off points for age of cars; just about insurance for young drivers. Someone mentioned that a previous anonymous AMA with an insurance underwriter was really interesting, and it was, it was very popular. This one is not anonymous and not the same at all so please don't expect it to be a revelation of industry secrets.

If the question you are asking is something that the person on the phone was unable to tell you when you were getting a quote for yourself, then Michael is also not going to be able to tell you and likely to be in big trouble for revealing that commercially sensitive information here. Naturally he cannot answer all of the questions in the way that a friend in the pub chatting about work might answer your questions - his answers here are public. As with all AMAs, you can ask what you like but the responder is not under any obligation to answer anything unsuitable (aforementioned commercially sensitive info).

If your question is not suitable for the AMA, you might get some helpful info in the Motor Insurance forum.

Please stay on topic from here on in, thanks

Special Circumstances

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

Good morning people! "So I put it to you" "Would you concede that" "Isn't it true that..." I thought I'd stepped into an episode of Rumpole of the Bailey there (those of you scratching your heads, look it up!)

This is an AMA for asking questions of Michael about young driver's insurance. It's not about the state of the insurance industry or out of court settlements or the loadings on older cars or the cut-off points for age of cars; just about insurance for young drivers. Someone mentioned that a previous anonymous AMA with an insurance underwriter was really interesting, and it was, it was very popular. This one is not anonymous and not the same at all so please don't expect it to be a revelation of industry secrets.

If the question you are asking is something that the person on the phone was unable to tell you when you were getting a quote for yourself, then Michael is also not going to be able to tell you and likely to be in big trouble for revealing that commercially sensitive information here. Naturally he cannot answer all of the questions in the way that a friend in the pub chatting about work might answer your questions - his answers here are public. As with all AMAs, you can ask what you like but the responder is not under any obligation to answer anything unsuitable (aforementioned commercially sensitive info).

If your question is not suitable for the AMA, you might get some helpful info in the Motor Insurance forum.

Please stay on topic from here on in, thanks

Me first me first! Genuine questions here from a young driver!

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Again, in general in the industry (as specifics of the liberty business are off limits) there is a certain vagueness about what constitutes a modification.

In my experience the "no nonstandard audio" clause is amongst the most vague.

In your experience which of the following is a problematic modification

a) factory radio breaks, replaced with a Sony from Halfords for €120
b) a nice set of thule roofracks (€200+)
c) tyres from a top end manufacturer but without explicit approval of the car manufacturer (same size etc, but just not available from the factory)
d) a hands free bluetooth kit
e) a diesel car with DPF gutted/removed, EGR valve deleted and ECU persuaded to ignore these. There is obviously a performance benefit as well as the reliability enhancement and extra pollution
f) a magic tree

1hnr79jr65

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

Long Post

Niamh,

I believe most questions being asked are relevant to young drivers as social, economical, legal and industrial changes play a huge if not the biggest part in rise or fall in insurance costs for drivers regardless of age, however it seems most impactful of younger group.

What my perception of what is being answered here is it seems to be an attempt to avoid the hard questions and provide at least a reasonable response to the queries being made.

Boards.ie: Niamh

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

Niamh,

I believe most questions being asked are relevant to young drivers as social, economical, legal and industrial changes play a huge if not the biggest part in rise or fall in insurance costs for drivers regardless of age, however it seems most impactful of younger group.

What my perception of what is being answered here is it seems to be an attempt to avoid the hard questions and provide at least a reasonable response to the queries being made.

They are attempting to answer the questions they can reasonably answer in a public forum. That's it.

CantGetNoSleep

So ask me anything as long as it is an easy question where we have a pre-prepared corporate response?

Bongalongherb

@ Michael

I just got a quote from Liberty Insurance and I want to ask Michael why my quote is so high.

My quote for a 47 year old male construction worker with no penalty points no convictions and 9 years no claims bonus on a provisional licence is €1966.14 from Liberty insurance. Michael, why is this so high ?. Also, I never had any claims ever.

My car...

Mitsubishi colt gl 1.3 1999, just an ordinary car.

Liberty Insurance: Michael

Sour Lemonz wrote: »

Michael,

As AMA are you going to answer all questions or just carry on cherry picking questions that suits you/your company to answer?

Hi,

Believe me I understand how frustrating this must be.

The motor insurance industry in Ireland has generally been very unprofitable since 2006 due to increased competition which lead to unsustaniable rates/premiums being charged over the last 7/8 years - for reference see - https://www.centralbank.ie/publications/Documents/Insurance%20Statistics%202014.pdf

In a previous post I outlined that the average premium in the market between 2001-2004 was approx €850 and from 2005 to 2013 the average premium reduced to as low as approx €450 which resulted in the aforementioned results

Due to the increasing claims frequency, increasing value of awards from the injuries board and increasing value of court awards, premiums in the market have (over the last 24 months) increased to more sustainable levels

In response to your comment on EU deregulation. I cannot comment on what may or may not happen in this regard

I hope this helps to answer your question

Thanks,
Michael.

madalig12

Liberty Insurance: Michael wrote: »

Hi,

Believe me I understand how frustrating this must be.

The motor insurance industry in Ireland has generally been very unprofitable since 2006 due to increased competition which lead to unsustaniable rates/premiums being charged over the last 7/8 years - for reference see - https://www.centralbank.ie/publications/Documents/Insurance%20Statistics%202014.pdf

In a previous post I outlined that the average premium in the market between 2001-2004 was approx €850 and from 2005 to 2013 the average premium reduced to as low as approx €450 which resulted in the aforementioned results

Due to the increasing claims frequency, increasing value of awards from the injuries board and increasing value of court awards, premiums in the market have (over the last 24 months) increased to more sustainable levels

In response to your comment on EU deregulation. I cannot comment on what may or may not happen in this regard

I hope this helps to answer your question

Thanks,
Michael.

Oh thats ok then, because insurance companies ran THEMSELVES for years as loss making companies then you can change this year to profit making by doubling prices. What kind of business model are you idiots following?

kupus

Boards.ie: Niamh wrote: »

Good morning people!


This is an AMA for asking questions of Michael about young driver's insurance. It's not about the state of the insurance industry or out of court settlements or the loadings on older cars or the cut-off points for age of cars; just about insurance for young drivers. Someone mentioned that a previous anonymous AMA with an insurance underwriter was really interesting, and it was, it was very popular. This one is not anonymous and not the same at all so please don't expect it to be a revelation of industry secrets.

Please stay on topic from here on in, thanks

I thought this was an Ask Me Anything. And not a ask only what we want you to ask.

Maybe this thread should be in that forum you mentioned instead of this one.

Liberty Insurance: Michael

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Me first me first! Genuine questions here from a young driver!

Hi,

I am more than happy to answer genuine questions and here to provide useful tips and advice primarily for the young driver community.

In relation to modifications. Any non peformance enhancing modifcations will generally not affect the premium being quoted i.e. alloy wheels, spolier, upgraded radio system and so on. Please just remember to take in to account the value of these items when advising the total vehicle value (note-some insurers may have limits for certain items and limits can vary from insurer to insurer).

In relation to performance enhancing modifications. Any modification which enhanes the performance of the vehicle i.e. chipping the engine, clod air intake and suspension/exhaust alteration will generally affect the premium and some insurers, including Liberty, will have specific acceptance criteria around this area

Hope this answers your question

Thanks,
Michael.

jimgoose

Hello Michael. I've just received a flat-out "Sorry, no!" for a 17-year old 3l Jag. I'm a 44-year-old engineer of the perfectly harmless variety, living in the Cork Southside 'burbs, with infinite NCB and a clean slate. Would you be able to offer an insight or viewpoint on this? I wouldn't imagine big, comfy old couches of Jaaags are a glaring wart on the claims stats...

Special Circumstances

Liberty Insurance: Michael wrote: »

Hi,
...
In relation to performance enhancing modifications. Any modification which enhanes the performance of the vehicle i.e. chipping the engine, clod air intake and suspension/exhaust alteration will generally affect the premium and some insurers, including Liberty, will have specific acceptance criteria around this area

Thanks Michael, a follow up question if you have a chance after answering some other people queries- do you know of any cases where genuinely naive owners were surprised to find that their DPF/EGR had been deleted and they faced insurance problems when this came to light as part of an inspection?

Liberty Insurance: Michael

Bongalongherb wrote: »

@ Michael

I just got a quote from Liberty Insurance and I want to ask Michael why my quote is so high.

My quote for a 47 year old male construction worker with no penalty points no convictions and 9 years no claims bonus on a provisional licence is €1966.14 from Liberty insurance. Michael, why is this so high ?. Also, I never had any claims ever.

My car...

Mitsubishi colt gl 1.3 1999, just an ordinary car.

Hi,

Thank you for giving us the opportunity to quote for your insurance. I am sorry that you didn't find our premium competitive on this occasion.

Without knowing your full risk profile I can only point to 2 factors that may be affecting your premium namely;

1. Provisional Licence
2. Age of vehicle

As I've mentioned before (and sorry to bring it up again), insurance companies set their prices at a level that covers the risk based on their own experience across their own motor account and looking in dept at various factors including but not limited to, driver experience, vehicle make/model/age/value, occupation, geographical location and so on.
As a result people will often experience variations in quotes across the different insurance providers.

Can I also suggest that you speak to a local insurance broker in your area who may be able to provide instant access to multiple insurers and who may be able to find you a more competitive price.

Hope this helps

Thanks,
Michael.

Liberty Insurance: Michael

jimgoose wrote: »

Hello Michael. I've just received a flat-out "Sorry, no!" for a 17-year old 3l Jag. I'm a 44-year-old engineer of the perfectly harmless variety, living in the Cork Southside 'burbs, with infinite NCB and a clean slate. Would you be able to offer an insight or viewpoint on this? I wouldn't imagine big, comfy old couches of Jaaags are a glaring wart on the claims stats...

Hi,

Would you mind PM me your details and we will organise for someone to look in to your query and contact you as soon as possible

Many thanks,
Michael.

jimgoose

Liberty Insurance: Michael wrote: »

Hi,

Would you mind PM me your details and we will organise for someone to look in to your query and contact you as soon as possible

Many thanks,
Michael.

Not necessary thank you Michael, I have full-comp for a few hundred from another crowd from a couple of months back. I am merely curious as to why Liberty does not want my custom. The automated sentry-at-the-gate sent me packing immediately! :pac:

Liberty Insurance: Michael

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Thanks Michael, a follow up question if you have a chance after answering some other people queries- do you know of any cases where genuinely naive owners were surprised to find that their DPF/EGR had been deleted and they faced insurance problems when this came to light as part of an inspection?

Hi,

In my own personal experience I have not come across any cases where this has happened but I havent worked on the claims side of the business. My colleagues in our claims department might have experience in this area and may very well have seen similar scenarios in the past.

If you want to PM me your details I will ask one of my colleagues in claims to look in to this and respond to you directly

Thanks,
Michael.