Buses are the most inefficient mode of public transport

Chivito550

I contacted Dublin Bus about this anyway, regarding seats not being used and people being left waiting for next bus as a result. They basically blamed the customers and said the driver was 100% right. Says it all about Dublin Bus. Pass the blame rather than acknowledge the serious flaws in how they operate their buses (no middle doors, poor monitoring of available seats, drivers who aren't arsed half the time lets be honest).

suicide_circus

It is simultaneously the customers and the drivers fault I'd say

the boss of me

Chivito550 wrote: »

Why there isn't a touch on touch off machine is beyond me. The driver shouldn't have to be taking fares in coins and deciding what to charge to your leap. The dwell times are ridiculous. And half the drivers don't have a clue how to work the leap card machines. I've been standing there for 20-30 seconds sometimes after saying 2:05 and he/she can't seem to figure out which button to press.
t.

Blame the ticket machine not the driver for that.. The ticket machines are ridiculously slow to read cards and deduct fares. Its a lot quicker to issue a cash farethan a leap fare. Even the remote card reader is pretty slow. This along with door brakes and the double doors have increased dwell times rather than reducing them.
I also believe the recent "kids go free" promotion was not the wisest move. It may have been a good if there was spare capacity in the buses.. However at peak times many passengers with prepaid annual and monthly passes were left standing on the side of the road whilst the buses were filled with foreign students riding around for free.

Chivito550

suicide_circus wrote: »

It is simultaneously the customers and the drivers fault I'd say

Agreed, but passing the blame like that is pathetic. Idiots thrive when they are allowed to thrive. Properly designed and operated buses reduce idiocy enormously.

ampleforth

the boss of me wrote: »

Blame the ticket machine not the driver for that.. The ticket machines are ridiculously slow to read cards and deduct fares. Its a lot quicker to issue a cash farethan a leap fare. Even the remote card reader is pretty slow. This along with door brakes and the double doors have increased dwell times rather than reducing them.
I also believe the recent "kids go free" promotion was not the wisest move. It may have been a good if there was spare capacity in the buses.. However at peak times many passengers with prepaid annual and monthly passes were left standing on the side of the road whilst the buses were filled with foreign students riding around for free.

In Vienna (Austria, an equally small country like Ireland), for example, residents buy a year ticket (which is a card) that is a flat fair of 365 Euro (1 Euro a day) for all transportation within Vienna and then there are very occasional random controls in buses, trams and the underground. Even if you have forgotten the card, a simple ID can be used to identify you own a year card. Its fast, nobody needs to be checked on the way in, no queues, no waiting for a beep or a response from an annoyed bus driver. Nobody of the locals actually pays single fairs, only tourists or people who do not move around in the city much (with 1 Euro a day fair, that is basically less than one trip's worth of money a day).

There is a lot to be learned from this. I would prefer paying a flat fair and then not have to worry about the particulars of a ride, and the processing. If you can lift off the control procedure, then you can open more than one door and the driver could focus more on what he really should do --- driving and bringing people to where they want to go.

The Leap card is already a good step in the right direction, i think. I do like the capping and the contact-less processing, but the fee business is a bit complicated and the queues are dramatic (due to the slow machines and the human intervention), also regarding the delays at each bus stop that quickly makes the travel time unpredictable given that Dublin has a lot of stops. I would like to see some simplification on the fee's and the process of collecting them --- then a lot of issues would probably go away.

People standing around like cattle, however, that is a human condition --- and as such won't go away that easily

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

I haven't see Dublin bus admit that they're having problems
Is there a source for that?

One look at their Twitter feed for several days will tell you all you need to know.

Multiple buses cancelled due to "operational issues".

No company is going to make a public statement along the lines of what you seem to expect, but it doesn't take Einstein to join the dots when you see regular cancellations.

The holiday season means less drivers available and there just doesn't appear to be enough cover.

LXFlyer

suicide_circus wrote: »

it's probably all the tourists going out to ballinteer from the airport

The 16 is one of the busiest routes in the city regardless and badly needs more frequency not less.

That kind of smart remark is frankly pointless.

LXFlyer

plodder wrote: »

Is that really true? What justification could there be for that level of interference/red tape?

Taking services away I could understand, but not adding them ...

Well there is good reason for that - it prevents operators flooding the market with buses to try and stop competitors.

The same rules apply to all operators.

If an operator wants to increase frequency, the NTA have to approve it.

In the case of Dublin Bus the NTA pay DB to operate the service. They dictate service levels. Of course DB can apply for increased frequency but that costs money too.

plodder

Getting rid of cash fares and proper reading machines on the buses would help. Sell cheap prepaid, single use leap cards in shops as a replacement for cash if necessary. It's hard to imagine many other developed countries allowncash on their capital city backbone transport system.

LXFlyer

plodder wrote: »

Getting rid of cash fares and proper reading machines on the buses would help. Sell cheap prepaid, single use leap cards in shops as a replacement for cash if necessary. It's hard to imagine many other developed countries allowncash on their capital city backbone transport system.

All of that requires significant funding and also changes to the funding model for the operating companies.

That's something that hasn't exactly been available due to the recession.

plodder

lxflyer wrote: »

Well there is good reason for that - it prevents operators flooding the market with buses to try and stop competitors.

The same rules apply to all operators.

If an operator wants to increase frequency, the NTA have to approve it.

In the case of Dublin Bus the NTA pay DB to operate the service. They dictate service levels. Of course DB can apply for increased frequency but that costs money too.

But, operators don't compete on the same route do they?

As a matter of interest. Who gets DB fares? Is it DB or the NTA?

LXFlyer

plodder wrote: »

But, operators don't compete on the same route do they?

As a matter of interest. Who gets DB fares? Is it DB or the NTA?

Not right now in Dublin, but they do across the country - but it needs to be consistently regulated across the sector.

As DB receives public sector funding (PSO), there has to be transparency and fairness. The contracts are very clear that regular increases in service need NTA approval. One off changes for special events are permitted.

The model is changing - right now DB keep the fares, but when the next round of route tenders are awarded the NTA will get the fare revenue and pay the operators an agreed amount to operate the service - as service levels change this amount may be altered also.

Pete Moss

Chivito550 wrote: »

A regular occurrence but today took the biscuit. About 15 minutes ago I was waiting to get a 16 from Camden St heading southbound. Packed bus arrives, 3 get off, so only 3 are allowed on by the driver. I'm fortunate to be one of those 3. When I got on I said to him that I guarantee there are seats upstairs. He says very matter of factly that there are no seats. I squeeze through the gobsh1tes standing downstairs at the front of the bus, head upstairs to find 6 seats not being used. 6 people have to wait another 20 minutes for a bus because 1) the driver is too lazy to look in his camera to see seats available, 2) the driver is too lazy to tell people to move upstairs and 3) because people are idiots and prefer to clog up the standing room when there are seats available.

Any transport system where one effectively needs permission off the driver to board is highly ineffective. With a metro or tram the laws of physics determine if you board, not poor interpretation by a driver.

We really have a joke of a public transport system here.

Just wondering, when you got on the bus, was it simply luck of the draw that the bus stopped near you or was there a queue established?

I take the bus to and from work everyday. There are numerous stops on my route which look like the last chopper out of Saigon. It doesn't matter if you've queued for 30 seconds or 30 minutes, once the doors open, it's first come, first served. IMO, the driver isn't at fault and Ireland isn't the only country to have a 'free for all' when it comes to accessing public transport, but it must be infuriating to wait so long at a stop and have someone who just showed up to get one of the limited spots on a bus. Luckily, I board the bus pretty closely after the terminus so there's always space when I get on.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

No company is going to make a public statement along the lines of what you seem to expect, but it doesn't take Einstein to join the dots when you see regular cancellations.
.

So you were guessing as to the causes of the increased operational issues? or rather the alleged increase in operational issues?


That's fair enough but you should probably make that clear

plodder

lxflyer wrote: »

Not right now in Dublin, but they do across the country - but it needs to be consistently regulated across the sector.

The model is changing - right now DB keep the fares, but when the next round of route tenders are awarded the NTA will get the fare revenue and pay the operators an agreed amount to operate the service - as service levels change this amount may be altered also.

So, they don't compete and DB keep the fares. The NTA shouldn't be interfering in how many buses they put on a route then..

If we are moving quickly to the other model, then fair enough maybe. How long do you think it will take before all (or say 75%) of routes are managed this way?

Chivito550

Pete Moss wrote: »

Just wondering, when you got on the bus, was it simply luck of the draw that the bus stopped near you or was there a queue established?

I take the bus to and from work everyday. There are numerous stops on my route which look like the last chopper out of Saigon. It doesn't matter if you've queued for 30 seconds or 30 minutes, once the doors open, it's first come, first served. IMO, the driver isn't at fault and Ireland isn't the only country to have a 'free for all' when it comes to accessing public transport, but it must be infuriating to wait so long at a stop and have someone who just showed up to get one of the limited spots on a bus. Luckily, I board the bus pretty closely after the terminus so there's always space when I get on.

Yeh there's no queue at all. It's a free for all. Every man or woman for him/herself. I'm usually good at making sure I'm in the first 2-3 as most people are just dozing looking at their phones or just don't keep on top of the game by anticipating where abouts the driver will stop the bus exactly. I get the bus home every day and almost always the driver stops about 5-10m past the stop, so I watch out for this and react first.

I also ALWAYS get a seat once I get past the battle of getting onto the bus. At the very least the middle seat at the back is always free, usually a few more too. People are too awkward/lazy/self conscious to just walk to the back and take a proper look rather than glancing from the top of the stairs.

Human behaviour is fascinating but also infuriating at times.

LXFlyer

plodder wrote: »

So, they don't compete and DB keep the fares. The NTA shouldn't be interfering in how many buses they put on a route then..

If we are moving quickly to the other model, then fair enough maybe. How long do you think it will take before all (or say 75%) of routes are managed this way?

The NTA pay a PSO subsidy to them to operate the service - without it there would be no service full stop. They call the shots as they specify service levels. DB are now simply the operator.

Tenders are due to be awarded by the end of the year.

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

So you were guessing as to the causes of the increased operational issues? or rather the alleged increase in operational issues?


That's fair enough but you should probably make that clear

Well let's be honest, how many times do you see buses broken down?

It tends very much to be the exception these days rather than the rule.

If there is a sudden spike in service cancellations, and when you begin to notice it as a regular passenger yourself, it's fairly obvious there is a staffing issue.

This problem has happened every year during the summer months for the past few years, but I've not noticed it as bad as this year before.

suicide_circus

lxflyer wrote: »

The 16 is one of the busiest routes in the city regardless and badly needs more frequency not less.

That kind of smart remark is frankly pointless.

Relax :pac:

LXFlyer

suicide_circus wrote: »

Relax :pac:

Well when there's a 24 minute gap in the service on the 16 at the height of the morning peak, as there was this morning due to one bus not operating, which in turn led to a 36 minute gap for other people along the route due to the next bus being full after about 12-15 stops, it kind of grates.

Pete Moss

Chivito550 wrote: »

Yeh there's no queue at all. It's a free for all. Every man or woman for him/herself. I'm usually good at making sure I'm in the first 2-3 as most people are just dozing looking at their phones or just don't keep on top of the game by anticipating where abouts the driver will stop the bus exactly. I get the bus home every day and almost always the driver stops about 5-10m past the stop, so I watch out for this and react first.

I also ALWAYS get a seat once I get past the battle of getting onto the bus. At the very least the middle seat at the back is always free, usually a few more too. People are too awkward/lazy/self conscious to just walk to the back and take a proper look rather than glancing from the top of the stairs.

Human behaviour is fascinating but also infuriating at times.

As I said, I usually get a seat on my route home and I've seen scuffles break out once or twice from people at a packed stop. It's crazy. I remember years ago Dublin Bus had long steel barriers near stops, particularly around O'Connell Street which at least gave some indication as to the way the queue should be formed and where the bus would be stopping. Now, as you said, depending on the stop a bus can pull in several metres from the stop, so it's a guessing game.

Another seating issue on buses, people who have to be asked to move their bags from a seat when a bus is jammed. It's a bag, not a baby, stick it on the ground or on your lap.

lil5

lxflyer wrote: »

Well when there's a 24 minute gap in the service on the 16 at the height of the morning peak, as there was this morning due to one bus not operating, which in turn led to a 36 minute gap for other people along the route due to the next bus being full after about 12-15 stops, it kind of grates.

Sounds just like a normal day on the 7 route ...
It kind of grates every day.
And even more so in the summer.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

Well let's be honest, how many times do you see buses broken down?

It tends very much to be the exception these days rather than the rule.

If there is a sudden spike in service cancellations, and when you begin to notice it as a regular passenger yourself, it's fairly obvious there is a staffing issue.

This problem has happened every year during the summer months for the past few years, but I've not noticed it as bad as this year before.

Maybe there is a spike in service cancellations, maybe there is'nt . All I've noticed is the usual service cancellations that DB inflict on us.

As a passenger i wouldn't be putting forward theories as to what might be causing service cancellations just because I don't see a bus on the side of the road broken down

What isn't helping on the university routes is that Dublin Bus seem to have done a deal with travel companies to use their regular routes for the thousands of spanish students who travel en masse from DCU and UCD etc

Must be a sickener for someone who pays for a leap and is taxed for a public bus service to see buses driving past full because they've been commandeered by a private company.

plodder

lxflyer wrote: »

The NTA pay a PSO subsidy to them to operate the service - without it there would be no service full stop. They call the shots as they specify service levels. DB are now simply the operator.

Tenders are due to be awarded by the end of the year.

For 10% of routes as I understand it (now). So, operators tender for each route for a certain level of service, at a certain price, but they still have exclusivity I think? With the NTA getting between the service provider and the user, and the service provider not having any incentive to increase services, I think we need service level agreements between the NTA and the public. Someone mentioned Norway(?) where you get compensated in some way for poor service. So, if your bus doesn't turn up or is full, I think you should get compensated in some way.

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

Maybe there is a spike in service cancellations, maybe there is'nt . All I've noticed is the usual service cancellations that DB inflict on us.

As a passenger i wouldn't be putting forward theories as to what might be causing service cancellations just because I don't see a bus on the side of the road broken down

What isn't helping on the university routes is that Dublin Bus seem to have done a deal with travel companies to use their regular routes for the thousands of spanish students who travel en masse from DCU and UCD etc

Must be a sickener for someone who pays for a leap and is taxed for a public bus service to see buses driving past full because they've been commandeered by a private company.

Anecdotal evidence - i.e. asking drivers, tends to support the theory - several drivers have indeed posted that some of the new drivers have left.

Hearing regular calls over the radio looking for drivers to work overtime too would support it too.

But sure you go on believing what you want as from what I can see you don't believe anything that I post regardless.

Tickityboo

@chivito550

I had an sg this morning and the only upper saloon seats I could see on my cab monitor was from one row in front of the stairs back.
I can only monitor the seats I can see so don't just assume that the drivers can't be arsed!!

hognef

plodder wrote: »

Someone mentioned Norway(?) where you get compensated in some way for poor service. So, if your bus doesn't turn up or is full, I think you should get compensated in some way.

Indeed. Oslo, Norway. Not necessarily in other areas. If you're left waiting more than 20 mins beyond the scheduled time, you're entitled to the cost of a taxi. I've never heard of buses there so full they can't/won't let you board.

howiya

lxflyer wrote: »

The NTA pay a PSO subsidy to them to operate the service - without it there would be no service full stop. They call the shots as they specify service levels. DB are now simply the operator.

Tenders are due to be awarded by the end of the year.

Quick question on this. How dynamic, if at all, is the subsidy paid to DB? If they are paid to provide the service to a certain spec and fail to meet this do they get a reduced payment? Are the NTA paying for bus services that aren't provided?

punisher5112

howiya wrote: »

Quick question on this. How dynamic, if at all, is the subsidy paid to DB? If they are paid to provide the service to a certain spec and fail to meet this do they get a reduced payment? Are the NTA paying for bus services that aren't provided?

Db and others are fined if they fail.

Last year around 97% service was upheld

Dyr

punisher5112 wrote: »

Db and others are fined if they fail.

Last year around 97% service was upheld

I had an interesting conversation with a DB support guy when I asked him if the buses that were'nt running even though they still showed up on RTPI were being logged with TFI. He didn't know

I would wager at a guess that the official figures and the actual figures look different