Buses are the most inefficient mode of public transport

Chivito550

A regular occurrence but today took the biscuit. About 15 minutes ago I was waiting to get a 16 from Camden St heading southbound. Packed bus arrives, 3 get off, so only 3 are allowed on by the driver. I'm fortunate to be one of those 3. When I got on I said to him that I guarantee there are seats upstairs. He says very matter of factly that there are no seats. I squeeze through the gobsh1tes standing downstairs at the front of the bus, head upstairs to find 6 seats not being used. 6 people have to wait another 20 minutes for a bus because 1) the driver is too lazy to look in his camera to see seats available, 2) the driver is too lazy to tell people to move upstairs and 3) because people are idiots and prefer to clog up the standing room when there are seats available.

Any transport system where one effectively needs permission off the driver to board is highly ineffective. With a metro or tram the laws of physics determine if you board, not poor interpretation by a driver.

We really have a joke of a public transport system here.

LXFlyer

Chivito550 wrote: »

A regular occurrence but today took the biscuit. About 15 minutes ago I was waiting to get a 16 from Camden St heading southbound. Packed bus arrives, 3 get off, so only 3 are allowed on by the driver. I'm fortunate to be one of those 3. When I got on I said to him that I guarantee there are seats upstairs. He says very matter of factly that there are no seats. I squeeze through the gobsh1tes standing downstairs at the front of the bus, head upstairs to find 6 seats not being used. 6 people have to wait another 20 minutes for a bus because 1) the driver is too lazy to look in his camera to see seats available, 2) the driver is too lazy to tell people to move upstairs and 3) because people are idiots and prefer to clog up the standing room when there are seats available.

Any transport system where one effectively needs permission off the driver to board is highly ineffective. With a metro or tram the laws of physics determine if you board, not poor interpretation by a driver.

We really have a joke of a public transport system here.

And how exactly do you expect the driver to know precisely how many seats are left upstairs if people don't move? He has a small screen - that's the only way he can see upstairs.

I've been on plenty of buses where people still haven't moved despite the driver exhorting them to move upstairs.

In the main, reason 3 is exactly the problem - particularly those people who insist on standing between the stairs and the front door and steadfastly refuse to move back into the bus as people get off.

StreetLight

OP, do not assume the driver is lazy. Depending on the model of bus and the quality of CCTV camera installed, the driver's view may be restricted. Newer types of bus have a monitor screen at the stairwell to assists standees indentify spare seats in the upper saloon.

The driver has a difficult enough job trying to juggle the amount of 'gobsh1tes' the bus can hold without being assumed to be lazy. It says more about the idiots who have to have their hand held into doing what's obvious to the rest of us.

Dyr

Driver can't be arsed is the most common cause. You're lucky he didn't pull in 20 feet past the stop to let those three off without taking anyone else on

Although drivers aren't allowed to let passengers off anywhere other than bus stops...unless it suits them

devnull

What happens 9/10 is someone walks up the stairs, to the top of them, looks towards the back, decides there is no seats there, when actually there is about 4-5, walks back down.

Every. Single. Time.

on a busy bus.

KD345

The bigger issue here is the 16 badly needs a higher frequency right across the day than it currently has.

TheChizler

You saying the bus was packed kind of contradicts the claim that it's inefficient.

AlekSmart

Chivito550 wrote: »

A regular occurrence but today took the biscuit. About 15 minutes ago I was waiting to get a 16 from Camden St heading southbound. Packed bus arrives, 3 get off, so only 3 are allowed on by the driver. I'm fortunate to be one of those 3. When I got on I said to him that I guarantee there are seats upstairs. He says very matter of factly that there are no seats. I squeeze through the gobsh1tes standing downstairs at the front of the bus, head upstairs to find 6 seats not being used. 6 people have to wait another 20 minutes for a bus because 1) the driver is too lazy to look in his camera to see seats available, 2) the driver is too lazy to tell people to move upstairs and 3) because people are idiots and prefer to clog up the standing room when there are seats available.

Any transport system where one effectively needs permission off the driver to board is highly ineffective. With a metro or tram the laws of physics determine if you board, not poor interpretation by a driver.

We really have a joke of a public transport system here.

We do indeed...don't we..?

However it's not ALL bad news,as we can be engage in a group-hug with our former European partners over in London....;)

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2015/april/upper-deck-seat-indicator-trial-extended-to-route-59

This new technology is aimed at increasing utilisation of the whole bus and to make passengers journeys more comfortable by encouraging them to go upstairs, rather than standing on the lower deck, which at the busiest times can prevent other passengers from boarding.

With a metro or tram the laws of physics determine if you board, not poor interpretation by a driver.

Mind you,as a regular Luas Red Line user,I'm OK going with the Busdrivers "poor interpretation" rather than the actual laws of physics,which often prevail there....:D

LXFlyer

Interesting technology there Alek - good to see.

But you will still get people who resolutely refuse to go upstairs.

ahlookit

devnull wrote: »

What happens 9/10 is someone walks up the stairs, to the top of them, looks towards the back, decides there is no seats there, when actually there is about 4-5, walks back down.

Every. Single. Time.

on a busy bus.

good to see that technology in London busses - couldnt understand why they never put sensors in seats upstairs and an LED on the ceiling over each seat, something similar to parking spaces in Dundrum. Just a red/green light to indicate if the seat is occupied. Can be hard to see from the stairs if each seat is taken down towards the back

KingBrian2

devnull wrote: »

What happens 9/10 is someone walks up the stairs, to the top of them, looks towards the back, decides there is no seats there, when actually there is about 4-5, walks back down.

Every. Single. Time.

on a busy bus.

That's because some people have shorter journeys than others you can hardly expect those passengers who only hop on for three or four stops to ascend the stairs and be sitting on a chair when their destination point is coming up.

hognef

Chivito550 wrote: »

A regular occurrence but today took the biscuit. About 15 minutes ago I was waiting to get a 16 from Camden St heading southbound. Packed bus arrives, 3 get off, so only 3 are allowed on by the driver. I'm fortunate to be one of those 3. When I got on I said to him that I guarantee there are seats upstairs. He says very matter of factly that there are no seats. I squeeze through the gobsh1tes standing downstairs at the front of the bus, head upstairs to find 6 seats not being used. 6 people have to wait another 20 minutes for a bus because 1) the driver is too lazy to look in his camera to see seats available, 2) the driver is too lazy to tell people to move upstairs and 3) because people are idiots and prefer to clog up the standing room when there are seats available.

Any transport system where one effectively needs permission off the driver to board is highly ineffective. With a metro or tram the laws of physics determine if you board, not poor interpretation by a driver.

We really have a joke of a public transport system here.

A proper system would guarantee entry, either on that bus or on a supplemental one that should be on standby for situations in which the first bus fills up.

The need for the additional bus could of course be eliminated by ensuring a high enough frequency to guarantee the bus is never full.

It can't be that hard to predict when a bus is likely to fill up.

punisher5112

KingBrian2 wrote: »

That's because some people have shorter journeys than others you can hardly expect those passengers who only hop on for three or four stops to ascend the stairs and be sitting on a chair when their destination point is coming up.

You wouldn't believe how much that is actually done and then these are the ones that sit wait for bus to stop doors open others get off then they make a run down.

You get the ones then that can't even walk never mind climb a step or stairs and yet they head straight for it.


Drivers have enough stress to deal with and honestly its the attitude of the op that makes the job so hard to do as the amount of people that are so disrespectful to drivers is beyond a joke.

SteM

KingBrian2 wrote: »

That's because some people have shorter journeys than others you can hardly expect those passengers who only hop on for three or four stops to ascend the stairs and be sitting on a chair when their destination point is coming up.

Then why would they walk upstairs to look for a seat in the first place then?

ampleforth

Like all human institutions, an imperfect system. I am sure the driver does his best, but people move around and block and just are there.

ahlookit

ampleforth wrote: »

people move around and block and just are there.

the feckers!

KingBrian2

punisher5112 wrote: »

You wouldn't believe how much that is actually done and then these are the ones that sit wait for bus to stop doors open others get off then they make a run down.

You get the ones then that can't even walk never mind climb a step or stairs and yet they head straight for it.


Drivers have enough stress to deal with and honestly its the attitude of the op that makes the job so hard to do as the amount of people that are so disrespectful to drivers is beyond a joke.

It comes with the territory, Dublin is a difficult place to work in. From the gossip you hear on forums to the behavior Dubliners show towards anyone who works in any profession be it politician, Gardaí or bus driver the amount of abuse is disgraceful.

KingBrian2

SteM wrote: »

Then why would they walk upstairs to look for a seat in the first place then?

To get out of the way, rest the feet.

triple nipple

Chivito550 wrote:

With a metro or tram the laws of physics determine if you board, not poor interpretation by a driver.

That's exactly why i stopped taking the Luas

magicbastarder

i can *never* find a seat upstairs on the luas.

TheFitz13

Buses are only supposed to have so many people standing, and bus drivers pack them in! 100% of the time on a busy bus

dfx-

KD345 wrote: »

The bigger issue here is the 16 badly needs a higher frequency right across the day than it currently has.

the bonus is the 16 is so desperately in need of capacity (and luggage racks don't help) that there's probably another 16 shortly behind that took off twenty minutes later...

Unfortunately, soon enough the second 16 becomes swamped as well...

_Kaiser_

devnull wrote: »

What happens 9/10 is someone walks up the stairs, to the top of them, looks towards the back, decides there is no seats there, when actually there is about 4-5, walks back down.

Every. Single. Time.

on a busy bus.

Because...

- If you're not going far it means having to negotiate your way all the way back to the front door (DB drivers don't generally use middle doors here even when provided - yea yea I know the argument for that but it's still ridiculous) when you're getting off, which is fun if you have bags or kids with you and becomes sort of a race to get there without falling (because of the piss-poor ride quality and drivers racing - particularly over speed ramps) before the driver pulls off again

- The "antisocial element" normally inhabit the lat few rows of the upper deck. Another thing no-one in DB/AGS seems to be interested in dealing with, so why should you?

I remember it well. Because DB can't manage to run a consistent and reliable service (even at off-peak times - and the "traffic" excuse doesn't hold when buses leave the terminus late, go out of service, don't run at all because of staffing issues - all of which should be very rare exceptions, not multiple occurrences daily), passengers are squeezed in like sardines because really, who knows when the next one will arrive or if you'll be able to get on it.

Now if you...

- Had a 99.999% reliable and frequent service that people could depend on
- Made full use of all doors with boarding/exiting at middle doors where fitted
- Dealt with the "undesirables"

... there wouldn't be the same pressure on passenger OR driver as people would be confident that the net bus is just minutes away.

ronn

Most routes are on a summer bill, reduced service while the schools are off, but they can't cope with the loading,

I heard DB contacted the NTA/TFI to tell them that they can't carry the passengers, but were told as long as the buses aren't running late they cant just put on extra buses because there not on the timetables,

LXFlyer

The summer bills affect a small number of routes. Granted the school term extras that operate across the network are off, but the drop in service isn't that great.

DB are having serious problems running the summer timetable as it is - plenty of buses cancelled due to operational issues (either staff shortage or maintenance, but given the frequency of these operational issues, I am inclined to think the former is the main problem) - so I find it rather difficult to believe that they asked the NTA if they could increase service levels.

hognef

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

- Made full use of all doors with boarding/exiting at middle doors where fitted

There shouldn't even be a question of "where fitted" - there should always be middle (and rear, for that matter) doors fitted.

Boarding through front door if you need to buy a single ticket off the driver, through any door (ticket scanners inside) if you already have a valid ticket. Exit preferably through middle and rear doors.

Much more efficient than today, but will probably need more random ticket checking.

This works perfectly well in other countries, and nobody ever needs to worry about going too far into the bus out of fear of not being able to get back out again.

Chivito550

hognef wrote: »

There shouldn't even be a question of "where fitted" - there should always be middle (and rear, for that matter) doors fitted.

Boarding through front door if you need to buy a single ticket off the driver, through any door (ticket scanners inside) if you already have a valid ticket. Exit preferably through middle and rear doors.

Much more efficient than today, but will probably need more random ticket checking.

This works perfectly well in other countries, and nobody ever needs to worry about going too far into the bus out of fear of not being able to get back out again.

Why there isn't a touch on touch off machine is beyond me. The driver shouldn't have to be taking fares in coins and deciding what to charge to your leap. The dwell times are ridiculous. And half the drivers don't have a clue how to work the leap card machines. I've been standing there for 20-30 seconds sometimes after saying 2:05 and he/she can't seem to figure out which button to press.

I've taken buses in Amsterdam and Vienna and there is none of that absolute bullsh1t.

wench

Chivito550 wrote: »

I've been standing there for 20-30 seconds sometimes after saying 2:05 and he/she can't seem to figure out which button to press.

If the passenger before you paid cash, the driver has to wait for the screen to change to leap fares before they can select your 2.05 fare.
The machines are barely up to the job, so that can be quite slow.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

DB are having serious problems running the summer timetable as it is - plenty of buses cancelled due to operational issues

I haven't see Dublin bus admit that they're having problems
Is there a source for that?

plodder

ronn wrote: »

I heard DB contacted the NTA/TFI to tell them that they can't carry the passengers, but were told as long as the buses aren't running late they cant just put on extra buses because there not on the timetables,

Is that really true? What justification could there be for that level of interference/red tape?

Taking services away I could understand, but not adding them ...

suicide_circus

KD345 wrote: »

The bigger issue here is the 16 badly needs a higher frequency right across the day than it currently has.

it's probably all the tourists going out to ballinteer from the airport

Chivito550

I contacted Dublin Bus about this anyway, regarding seats not being used and people being left waiting for next bus as a result. They basically blamed the customers and said the driver was 100% right. Says it all about Dublin Bus. Pass the blame rather than acknowledge the serious flaws in how they operate their buses (no middle doors, poor monitoring of available seats, drivers who aren't arsed half the time lets be honest).

suicide_circus

It is simultaneously the customers and the drivers fault I'd say

the boss of me

Chivito550 wrote: »

Why there isn't a touch on touch off machine is beyond me. The driver shouldn't have to be taking fares in coins and deciding what to charge to your leap. The dwell times are ridiculous. And half the drivers don't have a clue how to work the leap card machines. I've been standing there for 20-30 seconds sometimes after saying 2:05 and he/she can't seem to figure out which button to press.
t.

Blame the ticket machine not the driver for that.. The ticket machines are ridiculously slow to read cards and deduct fares. Its a lot quicker to issue a cash farethan a leap fare. Even the remote card reader is pretty slow. This along with door brakes and the double doors have increased dwell times rather than reducing them.
I also believe the recent "kids go free" promotion was not the wisest move. It may have been a good if there was spare capacity in the buses.. However at peak times many passengers with prepaid annual and monthly passes were left standing on the side of the road whilst the buses were filled with foreign students riding around for free.

Chivito550

suicide_circus wrote: »

It is simultaneously the customers and the drivers fault I'd say

Agreed, but passing the blame like that is pathetic. Idiots thrive when they are allowed to thrive. Properly designed and operated buses reduce idiocy enormously.

ampleforth

the boss of me wrote: »

Blame the ticket machine not the driver for that.. The ticket machines are ridiculously slow to read cards and deduct fares. Its a lot quicker to issue a cash farethan a leap fare. Even the remote card reader is pretty slow. This along with door brakes and the double doors have increased dwell times rather than reducing them.
I also believe the recent "kids go free" promotion was not the wisest move. It may have been a good if there was spare capacity in the buses.. However at peak times many passengers with prepaid annual and monthly passes were left standing on the side of the road whilst the buses were filled with foreign students riding around for free.

In Vienna (Austria, an equally small country like Ireland), for example, residents buy a year ticket (which is a card) that is a flat fair of 365 Euro (1 Euro a day) for all transportation within Vienna and then there are very occasional random controls in buses, trams and the underground. Even if you have forgotten the card, a simple ID can be used to identify you own a year card. Its fast, nobody needs to be checked on the way in, no queues, no waiting for a beep or a response from an annoyed bus driver. Nobody of the locals actually pays single fairs, only tourists or people who do not move around in the city much (with 1 Euro a day fair, that is basically less than one trip's worth of money a day).

There is a lot to be learned from this. I would prefer paying a flat fair and then not have to worry about the particulars of a ride, and the processing. If you can lift off the control procedure, then you can open more than one door and the driver could focus more on what he really should do --- driving and bringing people to where they want to go.

The Leap card is already a good step in the right direction, i think. I do like the capping and the contact-less processing, but the fee business is a bit complicated and the queues are dramatic (due to the slow machines and the human intervention), also regarding the delays at each bus stop that quickly makes the travel time unpredictable given that Dublin has a lot of stops. I would like to see some simplification on the fee's and the process of collecting them --- then a lot of issues would probably go away.

People standing around like cattle, however, that is a human condition --- and as such won't go away that easily

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

I haven't see Dublin bus admit that they're having problems
Is there a source for that?

One look at their Twitter feed for several days will tell you all you need to know.

Multiple buses cancelled due to "operational issues".

No company is going to make a public statement along the lines of what you seem to expect, but it doesn't take Einstein to join the dots when you see regular cancellations.

The holiday season means less drivers available and there just doesn't appear to be enough cover.

LXFlyer

suicide_circus wrote: »

it's probably all the tourists going out to ballinteer from the airport

The 16 is one of the busiest routes in the city regardless and badly needs more frequency not less.

That kind of smart remark is frankly pointless.

LXFlyer

plodder wrote: »

Is that really true? What justification could there be for that level of interference/red tape?

Taking services away I could understand, but not adding them ...

Well there is good reason for that - it prevents operators flooding the market with buses to try and stop competitors.

The same rules apply to all operators.

If an operator wants to increase frequency, the NTA have to approve it.

In the case of Dublin Bus the NTA pay DB to operate the service. They dictate service levels. Of course DB can apply for increased frequency but that costs money too.

plodder

Getting rid of cash fares and proper reading machines on the buses would help. Sell cheap prepaid, single use leap cards in shops as a replacement for cash if necessary. It's hard to imagine many other developed countries allowncash on their capital city backbone transport system.

LXFlyer

plodder wrote: »

Getting rid of cash fares and proper reading machines on the buses would help. Sell cheap prepaid, single use leap cards in shops as a replacement for cash if necessary. It's hard to imagine many other developed countries allowncash on their capital city backbone transport system.

All of that requires significant funding and also changes to the funding model for the operating companies.

That's something that hasn't exactly been available due to the recession.

plodder

lxflyer wrote: »

Well there is good reason for that - it prevents operators flooding the market with buses to try and stop competitors.

The same rules apply to all operators.

If an operator wants to increase frequency, the NTA have to approve it.

In the case of Dublin Bus the NTA pay DB to operate the service. They dictate service levels. Of course DB can apply for increased frequency but that costs money too.

But, operators don't compete on the same route do they?

As a matter of interest. Who gets DB fares? Is it DB or the NTA?

LXFlyer

plodder wrote: »

But, operators don't compete on the same route do they?

As a matter of interest. Who gets DB fares? Is it DB or the NTA?

Not right now in Dublin, but they do across the country - but it needs to be consistently regulated across the sector.

As DB receives public sector funding (PSO), there has to be transparency and fairness. The contracts are very clear that regular increases in service need NTA approval. One off changes for special events are permitted.

The model is changing - right now DB keep the fares, but when the next round of route tenders are awarded the NTA will get the fare revenue and pay the operators an agreed amount to operate the service - as service levels change this amount may be altered also.

Pete Moss

Chivito550 wrote: »

A regular occurrence but today took the biscuit. About 15 minutes ago I was waiting to get a 16 from Camden St heading southbound. Packed bus arrives, 3 get off, so only 3 are allowed on by the driver. I'm fortunate to be one of those 3. When I got on I said to him that I guarantee there are seats upstairs. He says very matter of factly that there are no seats. I squeeze through the gobsh1tes standing downstairs at the front of the bus, head upstairs to find 6 seats not being used. 6 people have to wait another 20 minutes for a bus because 1) the driver is too lazy to look in his camera to see seats available, 2) the driver is too lazy to tell people to move upstairs and 3) because people are idiots and prefer to clog up the standing room when there are seats available.

Any transport system where one effectively needs permission off the driver to board is highly ineffective. With a metro or tram the laws of physics determine if you board, not poor interpretation by a driver.

We really have a joke of a public transport system here.

Just wondering, when you got on the bus, was it simply luck of the draw that the bus stopped near you or was there a queue established?

I take the bus to and from work everyday. There are numerous stops on my route which look like the last chopper out of Saigon. It doesn't matter if you've queued for 30 seconds or 30 minutes, once the doors open, it's first come, first served. IMO, the driver isn't at fault and Ireland isn't the only country to have a 'free for all' when it comes to accessing public transport, but it must be infuriating to wait so long at a stop and have someone who just showed up to get one of the limited spots on a bus. Luckily, I board the bus pretty closely after the terminus so there's always space when I get on.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

No company is going to make a public statement along the lines of what you seem to expect, but it doesn't take Einstein to join the dots when you see regular cancellations.
.

So you were guessing as to the causes of the increased operational issues? or rather the alleged increase in operational issues?


That's fair enough but you should probably make that clear

plodder

lxflyer wrote: »

Not right now in Dublin, but they do across the country - but it needs to be consistently regulated across the sector.

The model is changing - right now DB keep the fares, but when the next round of route tenders are awarded the NTA will get the fare revenue and pay the operators an agreed amount to operate the service - as service levels change this amount may be altered also.

So, they don't compete and DB keep the fares. The NTA shouldn't be interfering in how many buses they put on a route then..

If we are moving quickly to the other model, then fair enough maybe. How long do you think it will take before all (or say 75%) of routes are managed this way?

Chivito550

Pete Moss wrote: »

Just wondering, when you got on the bus, was it simply luck of the draw that the bus stopped near you or was there a queue established?

I take the bus to and from work everyday. There are numerous stops on my route which look like the last chopper out of Saigon. It doesn't matter if you've queued for 30 seconds or 30 minutes, once the doors open, it's first come, first served. IMO, the driver isn't at fault and Ireland isn't the only country to have a 'free for all' when it comes to accessing public transport, but it must be infuriating to wait so long at a stop and have someone who just showed up to get one of the limited spots on a bus. Luckily, I board the bus pretty closely after the terminus so there's always space when I get on.

Yeh there's no queue at all. It's a free for all. Every man or woman for him/herself. I'm usually good at making sure I'm in the first 2-3 as most people are just dozing looking at their phones or just don't keep on top of the game by anticipating where abouts the driver will stop the bus exactly. I get the bus home every day and almost always the driver stops about 5-10m past the stop, so I watch out for this and react first.

I also ALWAYS get a seat once I get past the battle of getting onto the bus. At the very least the middle seat at the back is always free, usually a few more too. People are too awkward/lazy/self conscious to just walk to the back and take a proper look rather than glancing from the top of the stairs.

Human behaviour is fascinating but also infuriating at times.

LXFlyer

plodder wrote: »

So, they don't compete and DB keep the fares. The NTA shouldn't be interfering in how many buses they put on a route then..

If we are moving quickly to the other model, then fair enough maybe. How long do you think it will take before all (or say 75%) of routes are managed this way?

The NTA pay a PSO subsidy to them to operate the service - without it there would be no service full stop. They call the shots as they specify service levels. DB are now simply the operator.

Tenders are due to be awarded by the end of the year.

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

So you were guessing as to the causes of the increased operational issues? or rather the alleged increase in operational issues?


That's fair enough but you should probably make that clear

Well let's be honest, how many times do you see buses broken down?

It tends very much to be the exception these days rather than the rule.

If there is a sudden spike in service cancellations, and when you begin to notice it as a regular passenger yourself, it's fairly obvious there is a staffing issue.

This problem has happened every year during the summer months for the past few years, but I've not noticed it as bad as this year before.

suicide_circus

lxflyer wrote: »

The 16 is one of the busiest routes in the city regardless and badly needs more frequency not less.

That kind of smart remark is frankly pointless.

Relax :pac:

LXFlyer

suicide_circus wrote: »

Relax :pac:

Well when there's a 24 minute gap in the service on the 16 at the height of the morning peak, as there was this morning due to one bus not operating, which in turn led to a 36 minute gap for other people along the route due to the next bus being full after about 12-15 stops, it kind of grates.