M11/N11 - M50 (J4) to Coyne's Cross (J14) [options published]

prunudo

I noticed over the last few weeks a lot of traffic counters both on the main line and also on various slip roads, usually in one location for a few days and then moved on to somewhere else.
Great to see the back ground work being done but you'd have to wonder about the logic of doing traffic surveys just as the volume decreases for the summer months. There's been a noticeable difference in the more morning commute times since the secondary schools and colleges finished up.

prunudo

Received a letter from Arup the other day, addressed personally but I'd imagine a generic letter. Basically just acknowledging the feedback I had sent in and for attending the consultation meeting in the Glenview last December.
Also mentions that the constraints study is continuing and there will be another public consultation later in the year to display the results of the study.

sideswipe

Anybody know how plans are coming along with this? You can drive on motorway across the country from every interchange on the M50 now except the M11/N11. A couple of miles from the Dublin/wicklow border and you have to pass through a village at 60kph. Lots of talk about finishing out the route from Belfast to Rosslare with no mention of Kilmac issue. Seems like there has been continuous studies but no real action. Meanwhile housebuilding has ramped up massively south of kilmac and traffic can travel on great roads from south Wexford only to end up in a car park from the Glen of the Downs, really hoping to see some movement on this section soon!!

prunudo

Have to say, traffic is fantastic at the moment. Any people new to the area who have moved into their new homes over the summer months will get a shock come early September.
Latest I heard is that there'll be another public consultation later in the year once the constraints study has been completed.

marno21

prunudo wrote: »

Have to say, traffic is fantastic at the moment. Any people new to the area who have moved into their new homes over the summer months will get a shock come early September.
Latest I heard is that there'll be another public consultation later in the year once the constraints study has been completed.

This was planned for July. Hopefully sooner rather than later

prunudo

marno21 wrote: »

This was planned for July. Hopefully sooner rather than later

Hope so, maybe they'll take a leaf out of the N5 project.

spacetweek

This is quickly becoming one of the most urgent road schemes in the country.

marno21

Tenders being assessed for the N11 Kilmacanogue Parallel Service Road (Phase 1 of the overall major scheme)

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/braypeople/news/tenders-for-works-on-n11-at-kilmacanogue-being-assessed-38485931.html

dervebehe

Shouldn't the M11 actually start at Junction 14 on the M50? That was the original intention and IMO would make more sense, they just need to put a proper interchange there.

Chris_5339762

I'd imagine that would be how it ends up if the M50 Eastern Bypass is ever built.

prunudo

Was out for a walk the other day and passed the opening plague, was surprised to see the date of official opening, May 2004, seems a lot longer than that. 12-15 years later and the road was beyond its safe capacity in the mornings.

loyatemu

dervebehe wrote: »

Shouldn't the M11 actually start at Junction 14 on the M50? That was the original intention and IMO would make more sense, they just need to put a proper interchange there.

that's the reason the M11 numbering starts with Junction 5. The M50 merge would be J4 (though it's not signposted anywhere, only as M50 J17) and future J1 - J3 are the existing M50 J14-J16.

Eastern Bypass looks as far away as ever at the moment. With the increasing emphasis on climate action it's unlikely a future govt would commit the necessary billions to an urban motorway project, leaving aside more local environmental concerns over the route.

Macy0161

prunudo wrote: »

Was out for a walk the other day and passed the opening plague, was surprised to see the date of official opening, May 2004, seems a lot longer than that. 12-15 years later and the road was beyond its safe capacity in the mornings.

Just confirming what is already long established - building more roads just means more traffic!

Pretty much all the commuter estates in towns and villages Greystones to Gorey have been sold on (summer/ off peak) vehicle commuting times, with no expansion of Public Transport options - something that is again lacking on the proposed N11 upgrades.

loyatemu

Macy0161 wrote: »

Just confirming what is already long established - building more roads just means more traffic!

Pretty much all the commuter estates in towns and villages Greystones to Gorey have been sold on (summer/ off peak) vehicle commuting times, with no expansion of Public Transport options - something that is again lacking on the proposed N11 upgrades.

traffic mayhem in Greystones this morning because people are diverting off the N11 when there's a crash (which is pretty much every day).

They held a consultation on the N11 upgrade last year, a number of local politicians made the point that something has to be done to prioritise public transport, just adding lanes will only buy us a couple of years before we're back to where we are now.

There's a 1400 space park and ride in Greystones - it's full every day which shows there's an appetite for reliable public transport, but people aren't going to get on a bus if they're going to end up sitting in traffic on the N11. Might as well be in your car then.

sideswipe

Macy0161 wrote: »

Just confirming what is already long established - building more roads just means more traffic!

Pretty much all the commuter estates in towns and villages Greystones to Gorey have been sold on (summer/ off peak) vehicle commuting times, with no expansion of Public Transport options - something that is again lacking on the proposed N11 upgrades.

I can agree to a point but the N11 has been a bigger problem than most because of the restrictions in space going through Glen of the Downs and Kilmac. If they had of been able to widen the road to motorway of proper duel carriageway specifications things would certainly not be as bad as they are now.

loyatemu

sideswipe wrote: »

I can agree to a point but the N11 has been a bigger problem than most because of the restrictions in space going through Glen of the Downs and Kilmac. If they had of been able to widen the road to motorway of proper duel carriageway specifications things would certainly not be as bad as they are now.

how would making it a motorway make any difference - it's already grade-separated. There are few local accesses that could be closed off but they're not the problem, it's over-capacity and there's no further space to widen it (not that that widening would solve the problem in the long term).

Macy0161

sideswipe wrote: »

I can agree to a point but the N11 has been a bigger problem than most because of the restrictions in space going through Glen of the Downs and Kilmac. If they had of been able to widen the road to motorway of proper duel carriageway specifications things would certainly not be as bad as they are now.

Well it went from single carriageway to dual carriage way, and that didn't fix it long term. I'm old enough to remember that this was the solution, then it was the M50 link...

The fix is (enforced) bus lanes, park and rides and a massive increase in bus capacity.

josip

I wonder what percentage of rush hour traffic originates from Arklow or further south and also what percentage is destined for Sandyford/Cherrywood?
Those commuters are unlikely to move to public transport unless the rail service improves and or the Luas line is extended to link in with the Dart line.

AAAAAAAAA

josip wrote: »

I wonder what percentage of rush hour traffic originates from Arklow or further south and also what percentage is destined for Sandyford/Cherrywood?
Those commuters are unlikely to move to public transport unless the rail service improves and or the Luas line is extended to link in with the Dart line.

Cherrywood is doable enough by bus, but Sandyford is very difficult to get to from Counties Wicklow and Wexford (minus Bray) in general though. You either have to swap to a fairly infrequent bus somewhere like UCD or walk to the luas line at Brides Glen. If you're lucky with the busdriver you might be able to get off at Stillorgan and walk.

Macy0161

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

Cherrywood is doable enough by bus, but Sandyford is very difficult to get to from Counties Wicklow and Wexford (minus Bray) in general though. You either have to swap to a fairly infrequent bus somewhere like UCD or walk to the luas line at Brides Glen. If you're lucky with the busdriver you might be able to get off at Stillorgan and walk.

Now. But if the solution is down grade sections of the M11 and M50 to enable bus lanes, so be it, imo. Then have buses running up the N11 to Sandyford Industrial Estate.

AAAAAAAAA

Macy0161 wrote: »

Now. But if the solution is down grade sections of the M11 and M50 to enable bus lanes, so be it, imo. Then have buses running up the N11 to Sandyford Industrial Estate.

Honestly just having a bus from Loughlinstown hospital to Sandyford at a decent frequency would be a major step up and work as a good collector for all N11 buses

AngelaRI

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

Cherrywood is doable enough by bus, but Sandyford is very difficult to get to from Counties Wicklow and Wexford (minus Bray) in general though. You either have to swap to a fairly infrequent bus somewhere like UCD or walk to the luas line at Brides Glen. If you're lucky with the busdriver you might be able to get off at Stillorgan and walk.

If you're along the 84X route you can get off at Sandyford along the N11 - bit of a walk to get to the Industrial Estate or Microsoft, but doable. The issue is that even the very first bus of the day is standing room only by the time it hits Aldi Greystones, and a struggle to get off through the crush by the time it reaches Sandyford/Stillorgan (I usually drive but had to take the bus this morning, surprised at how FULL the very first bus was!)

sideswipe

loyatemu wrote: »

how would making it a motorway make any difference - it's already grade-separated. There are few local accesses that could be closed off but they're not the problem, it's over-capacity and there's no further space to widen it (not that that widening would solve the problem in the long term).

Usually if Glen of the Downs is busy it caused by the fact that Kilmac has a speed limit of 60kph which causes problems with traffic backing up so can’t agree it’s simply a case of overcapacity.

prunudo

sideswipe wrote: »

Usually if Glen of the Downs is busy it caused by the fact that Kilmac has a speed limit of 60kph which causes problems with traffic backing up so can’t agree it’s simply a case of overcapacity.

You've been doing it wrong, its 80kph northbound through Kilmacanogue.
I think its a combination of factors, but the volume of traffic is definitely a major part of that. Large amounts of commuters joining between Newtown and Delgany contributes to the backlogs too, where you have 4 roads joining in a short distance. The layout of Kilcroney/Enniskerry/Fassaroe junctions doesn't help either.
But, and to me this is a behavioural problem not engineering, it is the standard of driving. No amount of extra lanes or redesigns will account for bad human behaviour. Constant lane changing, cheating at junctions, driving in hard shoulders, people not paying attention and in general just a me fein standard of driving, rushing around trying to get 1 car ahead rather than just staying put and going with the flow.

Ps, variable speed limits may help but it all depends on how people obey them and except them as a solution to traffic up ahead even if its 5km away and clear by the time they pass.


And I'll add that if people doubt that over capacity isn't a big part of the issue, look at how much better the traffic flows on a Friday with the people doing 4 day weeks not adding to the congestion.

Macy0161

sideswipe wrote: »

Usually if Glen of the Downs is busy it caused by the fact that Kilmac has a speed limit of 60kph which causes problems with traffic backing up so can’t agree it’s simply a case of overcapacity.

It's the Bray South Junction Northbound. There's a constant stream of merging traffic - it's effectively 3 lanes into 2.

sideswipe

prunudo wrote: »

You've been doing it wrong, its 80kph northbound through Kilmacanogue.
I think its a combination of factors, but the volume of traffic is definitely a major part of that. Large amounts of commuters joining between Newtown and Delgany contributes to the backlogs too, where you have 4 roads joining in a short distance. The layout of Kilcroney/Enniskerry/Fassaroe junctions doesn't help either.
But, and to me this is a behavioural problem not engineering, it is the standard of driving. No amount of extra lanes or redesigns will account for bad human behaviour. Constant lane changing, cheating at junctions, driving in hard shoulders, people not paying attention and in general just a me fein standard of driving, rushing around trying to get 1 car ahead rather than just staying put and going with the flow.

Ps, variable speed limits may help but it all depends on how people obey them and except them as a solution to traffic up ahead even if its 5km away and clear by the time they pass.


And I'll add that if people doubt that over capacity isn't a big part of the issue, look at how much better the traffic flows on a Friday with the people doing 4 day weeks not adding to the congestion.

Sorry meant 80kph. I don't think anybody could say over capacity isn't a major contributing factor but there are so many other smaller contributing factors such as pinch points and bad road layout that make that stretch of road from south of the glen to the M50 merge problematic.

spacetweek

With the size of the commuter belt south of Dublin no amount of road capacity would ever be enough. Any new capacity you create (e.g. enforcing driving standards, adding more lanes) would just get filled by more cars.

Since the railway line is almost impossible to upgrade along the coast due to terrain, better buses are the way to go. The new upgrade should feature bus lanes in the stopping lanes which must be enforced with cameras etc. and a masssive increase in bus frequency, at least every 15 minutes. These buses need to originate from each town in the belt.

AAAAAAAAA

spacetweek wrote: »

Since the railway line is almost impossible to upgrade along the coast due to terrain, better buses are the way to go.

The railway in Wicklow has been insufficient for the entire lifetime of the DART. A 2km tunnel through Bray head to Greystones is all that is really needed to properly doubletrack the whole way to Wicklow Town at least, the land is mostly unobstructed to construct a second track for the majority of the route.

Tunneling is not so prohibitively expensive that this idea should be overlooked, in my opinion.

sideswipe

AAAAAAAAA wrote: »

The railway in Wicklow has been insufficient for the entire lifetime of the DART. A 2km tunnel through Bray head to Greystones is all that is really needed to properly doubletrack the whole way to Wicklow Town at least, the land is mostly unobstructed to construct a second track for the majority of the route.

Tunneling is not so prohibitively expensive that this idea should be overlooked, in my opinion.

I've often wondered if making the line from Greystones an orbital route would ever be a viable long term option.

Extend from Bray to cherrywood and back down along the N11 corridor linking with park and ride facilities south of the Glen of the Downs before routing back to Greystones. Trains could run every few minutes in either clockwise or anti clockwise direction.

AAAAAAAAA

sideswipe wrote: »

I've often wondered if making the line from Greystones an orbital route would ever be a viable long term option.

[If you mean orbital as in between Bray and Greystones and west of Bray Head]I suspect the answer is that it's either the same cost or more than tunnelling due to the amount of cut required as there is still a considerable gradient to overcome, in addition to a lot more CPOs of housing and businesses, and construction of bridges where the line intersects with roads.

Hard to tell really, I don't think there's been an investigation into that it and there might be a good solution in it

And to keep this in line with the actual thread, perhaps it would have some negative effect on the planned road take on the N11 expansion