Official GAA Proposal of New Championship Structure

Bass Reeves

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

But in Tipps case the deck to a great extent hasn't at all been completely stacked against football. In Clonmel, Football is totally dominant and its the same in a lot of South Tipp....

It has it is the same in Limerick and Clare. Hurling team management's in both counties do not want there players playing the other code. It is visa versa in other counties and the same translates down to club level. In Tipp case there are hurling players not on the first 25 that are not willing to play football because of it:mad:. This more than likely translates back to club level where clubs are actively trying to prevent lads from lining out for the county football team. Saw this recently at our own club where there was cribbing about a lad that was on a county football team but not about a lad that was trying to make county hurling team when neither were attending club training.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Considering the complaints that this doesn't help weaker counties has.No system will ever suit the weaker counties as sport is the ultimate meritocracy and somebody has to lose whether people like it or not.

Every county is now guaranteed 2 games in the championship on top of 7 in the league and maybe 1 or 2 at the start of the year in O'Byrne Cup etc.So weaker counties aren't being disadvantaged by having drastically fewer matches.

Weaker counties are now guaranteed home advantage in the qualifiers if they come up against division 1 or 2 teams surely that is doing something to help them out but it's being ignored.Also the extra money central council generate from these new matches can be used to help these weaker counties.

Weaker Counties have to look after themselves and although there may be some instances where there is favoritism being shown towards certain counties, in the main the problems of weaker counties are their own problem to fix and nobody can help them with that.

namloc1980

With the amount of opposition to these proposals I think they're dead before they even come near Congress. Can't see any scenario where these proposals get a two thirds majority. Non starter I'd say.

kazamo

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Considering the complaints that this doesn't help weaker counties has.No system will ever suit the weaker counties as sport is the ultimate meritocracy and somebody has to lose whether people like it or not.

Every county is now guaranteed 2 games in the championship on top of 7 in the league and maybe 1 or 2 at the start of the year in O'Byrne Cup etc.So weaker counties aren't being disadvantaged by having drastically fewer matches.

Weaker counties are now guaranteed home advantage in the qualifiers if they come up against division 1 or 2 teams surely that is doing something to help them out but it's being ignored.Also the extra money central council generate from these new matches can be used to help these weaker counties.

Weaker Counties have to look after themselves and although there may be some instances where there is favoritism being shown towards certain counties, in the main the problems of weaker counties are their own problem to fix and nobody can help them with that.

Not sure the weaker counties are all that bothered about improving.
Maybe they have accepted their lot in that they play most of their games in winter\early spring on bad pitches in Jan to Mar and then await the drubbing from a Dublin\Kerry etc and then wait five or six weeks for the qualifiers and the end.

To rectify that would require a serious commitment from players management and county boards and not sure how I would entice a young player in Longford or Carlow to play for the county for the next 10 years with a very remote chance of any silverware.
The commitment levels required for any inter county player has gone up enormously despite it being an amateur game so maybe the downside is 10-15 counties who just go through the motions as the potential benefits and a QF spot is not worth it as its so unlikely.

It seems to me the moaning about weaker counties is coming from the stronger counties as they don't get a game at the required level of intensity to tax them.

Leinster atm is Dublin and 10 cannon fodder teams, and with the level of resources available to Dublin both financially and player wise, then that situation is not going to change anytime soon.

Fair play to Dublin for getting their act together and I wish them all the best and I enjoy watching them. However it comes at a cost and I think we will end up just living with that regardless of any tinkering in systems.

StupidLikeAFox

K-9 wrote: »

It becomes about giving them 4 games minimum every Summer to build on progression whereas now, Fermanagh only got 3 games this Summer to build on last year because of a tough draw. Thomas Corrigan was very passionate and pissed off about the structure in the RTE game on podcast this week. All that effort for 3 bloody games! He didn't mention it but I read he works in Dublin and puts in serious time and effort for little competition this year.

Well Fermanagh did get 4 games, Antrim (W), Donegal (L), Wexford(W), Mayo (L) - Im not sure what you would change about that. Would an extra game before the Mayo match have significantly changed their season?

Some other examples from weaker counties:
Wicklow lost to Laois, then lost to Carlow, are two more games really going to make any difference to their season?
Carlow got three games, they lost to Louth, beat Wicklow, then lost to Cavan - again what benefit would there be to play 1 extra meaningless game?

At least this new system gives the weaker counties a new target for the 1/4 finals. Its a clearly defined "top-table", an achievable goal that they can aim for at the beginning of the season. They have earned their place there to compete against the top teams and have gone on a bit of a run (which got progressively more difficult) along the way.

Ultimately the championship is the place to prove yourself. The weaker counties need to realise if they want to win a provincial championship, or reach a quarter final these days its more than likely going to involve implementing a 5 or 10 year plan. They should be fully supported off the pitch in terms of finance and resources by the GAA. This has to happen regardless of structures. People say that Tipperary's run is refreshing for the championship, but it isn't a flash in the pan - the first paragraph of this article says it all:

When Barry O'Brien told Tipperary County Board delegates in December 2008 that the Premier county should be winning All-Ireland minor, junior, U-21 and senior football titles - yes, football - by 2020 it seemed to many, inside the room and outside, to be nothing more than a fanciful notion and an appeasement exercise by the incoming County Board chairman.

http://www.independent.ie/regionals/corkman/sport/gaa/obriens-2020-vision-for-tipperary-football-looking-less-fanciful-now-31163412.html

K-9

I don't know, counties having 2 games and out of the Championship by the end of June makes no sense to me, seems it does to a lot of people. Players want more games in the Summer, that's all counties, not just the top ones. This idea of weaker counties not bothered, how many counties haven't benefited fron the Qualifiers at all?

Maybe 4 or 5 counties have got nothing out of it at all, so why are people basing their idea of what a Championship should be on a couple of counties who don't give a damn. They don't matter, the 26 or 27 who do try and make a go of it do.

Every County should be getting 4 games minimum in every Summer and not depending on a run in the Qualifiers every few years. It's madness to expect the commitment players give for 2 games in the Summer. Players are saying this from all counties, not just stronger ones.

We'll probably always have only 3 or 4 elite counties at any one time but that doesn't mean you give up on giving games to the others. Seems logical to me!

Dirty Dingus McGee

K-9 wrote: »

I don't know, counties having 2 games and out of the Championship by the end of June makes no sense to me, seems it does to a lot of people. Players want more games in the Summer, that's all counties, not just the top ones. This idea of weaker counties not bothered, how many counties haven't benefited fron the Qualifiers at all?

Maybe 4 or 5 counties have got nothing out of it at all, so why are people basing their idea of what a Championship should be on a couple of counties who don't give a damn. They don't matter, the 26 or 27 who do try and make a go of it do.

Every County should be getting 4 games minimum in every Summer and not depending on a run in the Qualifiers every few years. It's madness to expect the commitment players give for 2 games in the Summer. Players are saying this from all counties, not just stronger ones.

We'll probably always have only 3 or 4 elite counties at any one time but that doesn't mean you give up on giving games to the others. Seems logical to me!

Not every team can be good .In any sport there have to be good and bad teams.That may be pointing out the obvious but it is something the weaker counties fail to grasp.

In the 15 years of the qualifiers loads of teams have benefited from them by getting to quarter final and semi finals.I think only 7 teams (Offaly,Louth,Leitrim,Waterford,Carlow,Antrim and Wicklow) have failed to get to a quarter final in the last 15 years (4 of those counties have got to the 4th round of qualifiers).Surely that is a sign that weaker counties have been helped.

You are not going to get a system providing that many games during the summer approved right now (and I suspect Padraic Duffy knows this) so the system that has been suggested may have a chance of being approved and is a stepping stone.The people who consider voting against this proposal really need to have that hammered home to them.Also if you putting weaker counties playing numerous matches against higher quality opposition and getting hammered constantly (which could happen) you would have a whole load of whinging about how unfair it is on them to be playing against sides who are out of their league.

K-9

Yes, that's exactly my point though. The Qualifiers have been a success, so why not extend them to everybody getting 4 games minimum? Why just leave it to what often is pot luck and getting a favorable draw.

Not everybody can be a top 4 county, not everybody can do a Tipp, if all 32 counties did everything right we'd still have different levels!

Maybe the best example is Leitrim, all that effort every year for what? Chances are even a new system isn't going to make them a top 10 County never mind elite, even getting 1 win is an achievement for them in a Summer. As Thomas Corrigan said, as a 26 year old looking back, he questions the effort he has put in and that's a top forward who got to a Q/F last year, a county that is punching above its weight and doing things right.

Mal-Adjusted

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Sure Kerry and Antrim loike...

Meath FYI :rolleyes:

BonnieSituation

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Meath FYI :rolleyes:

They're not in the Championship yet til next year... :P

Mal-Adjusted

BonnieSituation wrote: »

They're not in the Championship yet til next year... :P

Well...if you're going to count Antrim who haven't been in it for over a year :P

I feel like we're getting somewhat sidetracked. I was wondering, this structure is talked about like it's done and dusted. Does it not have to go through congress first or could there be some sort of executive order to push it through?

BonnieSituation

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

Well...if you're going to count Antrim who haven't been in it for over a year :P

I feel like we're getting somewhat sidetracked. I was wondering, this structure is talked about like it's done and dusted. Does it not have to go through congress first or could there be some sort of executive order to push it through?

You know I completely disregarded the CR Cup and replay against Meath. Ha ha.

Eh, yeah this has to go to Congress.

doc_17

The more I think of these proposed groups for the QF the more I am against it.

Dublin, the powerhouse, would be more advantages than any other team should the make the QF. Open draw, Donegal v Dublin in Ballybofey. Or Kerry v Dublin in Killarney!

harpsman

K-9 wrote: »

Yes, that's exactly my point though. The Qualifiers have been a success, so why not extend them to everybody getting 4 games minimum? Why just leave it to what often is pot luck and getting a favorable draw.

Not everybody can be a top 4 county, not everybody can do a Tipp, if all 32 counties did everything right we'd still have different levels!

Maybe the best example is Leitrim, all that effort every year for what? Chances are even a new system isn't going to make them a top 10 County never mind elite, even getting 1 win is an achievement for them in a Summer. As Thomas Corrigan said, as a 26 year old looking back, he questions the effort he has put in and that's a top forward who got to a Q/F last year, a county that is punching above its weight and doing things right.

You can either have the weaker counties competing for the Sam Maguire or you can have the weaker teams getting lots of games but you cant have both. Cos if you insist on no-hopers like Carlow getting 4 games what you're going to get fairly quickly is counties failing to field teams when they've already been stuffed 3 times and players decide they've better things to be doing than going out for another hammering in a dead rubber fixture. (IIRC didnt Tipp fail to put out a team a few years ago,well a decade, against Fermanagh in a qualifier?? Theyve come a long way if so.)

Its long past time to divisionalise teams in the championship-possibly go for the McGuinness model to give everyone a nominal shot at the big prize and then play a meaningful champonship at their own level.

K-9

People are focusing too much on 3 or 4 counties that don't seem to get anywhere and not loads of counties who have used the Qualifiers to go win a few matches. There'll always be a Carlow but you are punishing players in 29 counties because of 3 or 4 who never seem to get anywhere. I don't know, maybe that's the way people view life and Championship structures are no different!

Even Leitrim might not win much but at they're getting 4 games every Summer if it's changed properly. You might not care if they play 2 or 4 games but it's about the players. If Thomas Corrigan and others are questioning what's the point well I'm prepared to go with them.

The whole schedule is just stupid anyway, every team getting 10 games up to April, nothing for a month or 2 and half the counties out with 3 games max by mid July.


The problem with McGuinness's idea is the weaker counties don't want a secondary competition and it seems a lot of players all over the country don't either. Would players hang around after a first round exit for a Tommy Murphy type competition? It has to be an attractive competition and I've my doubts it would be promoted properly.

harpsman

K-9 wrote: »

People are focusing too much on 3 or 4 counties that don't seem to get anywhere and not loads of counties who have used the Qualifiers to go win a few matches. There'll always be a Carlow but you are punishing players in 29 counties because of 3 or 4 who never seem to get anywhere. I don't know, maybe that's the way people view life and Championship structures are no different!

Even Leitrim might not win much but at they're getting 4 games every Summer if it's changed properly. You might not care if they play 2 or 4 games but it's about the players. If Thomas Corrigan and others are questioning what's the point well I'm prepared to go with them.

The whole schedule is just stupid anyway, every team getting 10 games up to April, nothing for a month or 2 and half the counties out with 3 games max by mid July.


The problem with McGuinness's idea is the weaker counties don't want a secondary competition and it seems a lot of players all over the country don't either. Would players hang around after a first round exit for a Tommy Murphy type competition? It has to be an attractive competition and I've my doubts it would be promoted properly.

If they could win promotion to the top tier championship by doing well then Id expect they would.

Look, most sports around the world, including intercounty hurling, and every county gaelic football and hurling championships have different divisions for a reason. To the best of my knowledge, none of the millions of competitors involved in the non-top divisions of those sports claim its unfair that they arent allowed to compete for the top trophy.

Do all the intermediate and junior clubs up and down the country say that their competitions arent worthwhile? But maybe they're all wrong and a few players and officials of poor gaelic football teams who will throw their toys out of the pram if they have to earn the right to play at elite level are right.

Prop Joe

Play League as normal

Play provincials over a 5 week period

After that

3 seeds
Top seeds = 4 provincial winners + Next 4 in the league
Second seeds = Next 8 teams
Third seeds = the remaining 16 teams

Groups of 4 with
Top place - Qualifies for Last 16
Second - Home advantage in Qualifier
Third - Qualifier Rd.
Forth - Enters the Tailteann Cup

Pro's

Keeps provincials and keeps them valuable
Minimum 5 games in the summer for all teams
No dead rubbers in group stages
Tailteann Cup has huge value with it ran in tandem with AI Q's with final on AI final day
Winners have massive incentive for following year with top seeding available


Think we have to look at a more defined schedule,I have always been against a 2 tier all ireland but i think the incentive to play on All Ireland final day plus the huge lift it would give a panel to know they are top seeds the following year could really get one or two more counties up to a higher standard

Fr Tod Umptious

Why are people focusing so much on the "weaker counties"

I've heard a lot of people argue against this proposal cos it does not help the "weaker counties" enough.

Every sport in the world has weak teams that never achieve anything, no matter what structure is in place weak teams will likely be weak 90 years out of 100.

The elephant in the room is the unbalanced structure to the championship.
Teams from different geographical locations having to play more or less games to get to the same outcome.

My preference has always been 4 x 8 regions, with the existing back door and QF system or now possibly the new QF structure.

K-9

The aim is more games in the Summer for everybody. So these proposals are coming from the right direction, it's just they started at the top, rather than giving more games to everybody.

OldMrBrennan83

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BonnieSituation

Patww79 wrote: »

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As much as I hate talking about alternative championship structures in a thread about a proposed championship structure; why would you get rid of New York?

If anything I think they should rotate around the provinces and give everyone a chance to play them.

OldMrBrennan83

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BonnieSituation

Patww79 wrote: »

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That's what I was thinking. Not in the main draw. But one first round team gets to play them every year.

OldMrBrennan83

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StupidLikeAFox

This thread (and others) are probably more indicative of the bigger problem here - everybody wants change but everybody wants something different!

K-9

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

This thread (and others) are probably more indicative of the bigger problem here - everybody wants change but everybody wants something different!

Yep, there needs to be a big debate that actually decides what the fcuk do we want out of this first!

BOHSBOHS

OPTION 1

run off provincials as normal(but quickly- (max of two weeks between rounds) (new york still get their game!)


32 teams contest allireland series (straight knockout- no qualifiers -again max 2 weeks between rounds )

r1:32teams (open draw or seeded with the 16 provincial semi finalists vs 16 non semifinalists : non-seeds at home)
r2: 16 teams (open draw) (draw for home adv or if draw produces seeded v unseeded= unseeded has homeadvantage)
QF: 8teams (crokepark) (good selling them corp boxes/packages etc!)
Sf: 4 teams (crokepark)
F: 2teams (crokepark)

Exact same number of games played as currently !(60)
every team plays same number of all-ireland games to win Sam (5)

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OPTION 2


32 teams contest allireland series - no provincials

r1: group stage -8 groups of 4 - 3 matches for each team - (NY can play a prelim)
seeded based on league initially (open draw - four pots - one for each division)
then previous championship performance.( ie if a pot3 team finishes in 2nd place they become pot2 team next year)
home advantage always for lower division team.

r2: 16 teams (top 2 teams from each group go forward - open draw and draw for home advantage)

QF: 8teams (crokepark)
Sf: 4 teams (crokepark)
F: 2teams (crokepark)


63 matches total (3 more than currently)
every team must play same number of games to win Sam(7)

---

loyatemu

Option 2 is what I suggested back on page 1, and is the obvious "Champions league" style format if you have 32 teams but want to give everyone a few games (that's exactly why the Champions League was created to replace the old straight-knockout European Cup).

But people seem very attached to the provincials, so maybe replace the league with group-based provincials - you could have 2 groups of 6 in Leinster, 2 of 5 in Ulster (add London and New York to make up the numbers) with the winners of each group contesting the provincial final. Not sure about Connacht and Munster, the small number of counties in each will always lead to lob-sided competition.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Patww79 wrote: »

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Offaly to Munster would not be a good idea as the football part of the county is in the north of Offaly.

Laois would be more suitable if you were to move a county to Munster as it's a more southern county than Offaly.

OldMrBrennan83

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