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Official GAA Proposal of New Championship Structure

24

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    With so many big empty palaces around the country we might see the odd big crowd in them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭ahlookit


    Boom__Boom wrote: »
    I think this is only going to make the gap between the bigger teams and the smaller teams greater.

    It's going to do absolutely nothing for the weakest teams I don't think the home advantage bit and the fact that some revenue is going to be ring-fenced is going to be enough to convince the weaker teams to back this.

    Its going to give more games and more revenue to the top 8 teams in the country, while doing nothing for the other 23 (or 25 if you count NY and London) .

    If, as someone suggested this is the first baby step to removing the provincial system and having groups of 4 at the early stages instead then it's progress. Otherwise it'll just be the rich getting richer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,505 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    keane2097 wrote: »
    Just to clarify, 'proposal 1' is a change to the qualifiers while 'proposal 2' is a change to the QFs onwards - so these would both be applied if the new format went ahead.

    I was confused the first time I read that so just in case anyone else happens to be also.

    Proposal 1 just gives D3 & D4 teams a bit of an advantage in the early qualifier rounds.

    I'm still seriously confused


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,750 ✭✭✭iDave


    Not much incentive to be in Division 2 is there.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,943 ✭✭✭wally79


    Thats a good suggestion aswell.Although it would mean the legaue would be gone (which may be no bad thing anyway).

    Use the league as a way of seeding the groups. Might mean the league being taken more seriously


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    smaller divisions in the league would also help


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    when are club games going to be played in the calendar?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    wally79 wrote: »
    Use the league as a way of seeding the groups. Might mean the league being taken more seriously

    The groups will be seeded with 2 provincial winners and 2 qualifiers in each. Beyond that no seeding is needed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,505 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Basically it amounts to more Dublin games in Croke Park


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Basically it amounts to more Dublin games in Croke Park

    Or you could look at it as a massive increase in Dublin games out of Croker. At least 1 per year is a huge jump from the current 1 in every 5 or 6 years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,198 ✭✭✭PressRun


    Looks like it would be fairly hard on Ulster teams. They make it to an Ulster final and then whoever loses, still has to play 4th round and then group stages. That's a fair aul slog after a tough provincial.


  • Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭kazamo


    Home venue is subject to approval from the CCCC.

    When the Dubs go travelling, how many of the provincial grounds will be deemed to be too small to hold a quarter final ?
    Kildare, Meath, Wicklow and Longford have less capacity than Parnell Park, so if Dublin can't play in their own ground, what chance do the other venues have.

    They could always transfer it to the home of football........Nowlan Park:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,115 ✭✭✭Boom__Boom


    Over the last 5 years (including this year), the following are the teams who got to the quarter-finals and how often they have got there

    Dublin 5
    Kerry 5
    Mayo 5
    Donegal 5
    Monaghan 3
    Tyrone 3
    Cork 3
    Galway 2
    Kildare 2
    Armagh 1
    Cavan 1
    Clare 1
    Down 1
    Fermanagh 1
    Laois 1
    Tipperary 1

    A major issue is that every year at least one (and sometimes 2) very ordinary team(s) makes it to the last 8. Under the present system they would have taken their beating folded up the tent and gone home, however under the proposed system I could see some sides taking 3 significant beatings, which would be a massive blow to football in these counties in terms of getting lads to commit.

    Clare got beaten by 11 points this year and Galway got beaten by 9 points - very hard to see how 2 extra group games would have improved things for them. The Galway manager has spoken about how many players weren't interested in playing for the county - imagine if this year they had the prospect of playing 2 more games with the possible opponents being drawn from Dublin, Donegal, Kerry, Tyrone, Mayo or Clare.
    Kildare got beaten by 27 points last yearby Kerry, after the Dubs beating - 2 more group games would have been just cruel.
    Fermanagh's 8 point "hammering" by the Dubs was also last year.
    Monaghan lost by 17 points to Dublin in 2014 and Galway's 7 point loss to Kerry was a non-event of a competition.
    In 2013 you had Kerry's 6 point beating of Cavan and Mayo's 16 point beating of Donegal
    In 2012 Mayo beat Down by 12 points and Cork beat Kildare by 13 points.
    * I include the Galway loss in 2014 and the Cavan loss in 2013 as I was at both games and neither was ever going to be a contest -

    Overall giving 2 extra games to any of those sides would have done anything but harm to football in those counties. Just look at the margins of victory being handed out, now imagine these teams going out a week later to face a top 8 side followed by another top 8 side a week later.

    Also the group stage reduce the odds for a midde ranked side to progress - the likes of Tipp are a perfect example - this year they performed in the quarter-final and got the reward of a semi-final, but with a group stage, the odds of them getting to a semi-final drop drastically.

    The top teams would be delighted with this system but the bottom and mid level teams would be utterly nuts to support it in my opinion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    ahlookit wrote: »
    Its going to give more games and more revenue to the top 8 teams in the country, while doing nothing for the other 23 (or 25 if you count NY and London) .

    If, as someone suggested this is the first baby step to removing the provincial system and having groups of 4 at the early stages instead then it's progress. Otherwise it'll just be the rich getting richer.

    You do know that revenue is shared, right? So all those CP sell-outs go to fund sliotars in Belmullet and Footballs in Graiguenamanagh! :P
    iDave wrote: »
    Not much incentive to be in Division 2 is there.

    Other than the fact that you are playing better teams consistently and have a chance to get into Division 1.

    I like that you are suggesting that this 1 home game is possibly an incentive to hover about Div 3 and 4
    lawred2 wrote: »
    Basically it amounts to more Dublin games in Croke Park

    How did you work that one out? If our "home" game is in Parnell Park would you be happier?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,909 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    kazamo wrote: »
    Home venue is subject to approval from the CCCC.

    When the Dubs go travelling, how many of the provincial grounds will be deemed to be too small to hold a quarter final ?
    Kildare, Meath, Wicklow and Longford have less capacity than Parnell Park, so if Dublin can't play in their own ground, what chance do the other venues have.

    They could always transfer it to the home of football........Nowlan Park:D
    I think you should go back to whats being proposed, that the quarters go from knockout to a group style phase.
    A lot of the small grounds are in counties who dont get to the quarters anyhow.

    For Kildare, it might mean a surrendering of home advantage, but playing in Portlaoise 10km from the county bounds still should mean a lot more home fans if playing Kerry (who walloped Kildare last year 7-16 to 0-10 btw in the quarters) than if you chose a neutral venue somewhere half ways between.

    anyhow, the one part of me thinks its too little, but the other part of me is thinking that it is the beginning of an increased and more structured "All Ireland" phase after the provincials and in the longer term a strong round robin of 2x4 might well be the only workable solution.

    (extrapolate further and anticipate the clamour for extra games from other counties that fail to make the last 8 and see the gap to the top teams widening through the extra cash available in the expanded quarters, you might then want a B or even C championship round robin for the ones that dont make the last 8, but thats WAAAY down the line)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    I think its a step in the right direction and will certainly freshen things up, particularly at the business end of the year.

    My only concern is that counties who are regularly making that group stage are going to gain significant experience and development over counties that dont, and therefore there's a risk that the gaps in quality that are mentioned so often nowadays could become wider. I don't think the proposals do enough for weaker counties.

    I also dont see how the proposals cant have at least a slightly negative impact on club championships.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭BarryD


    I think you should go back to whats being proposed, that the quarters go from knockout to a group style phase.

    But what's wrong with knockout? The AI was a knockout competition that has been corrupted by the 'back door' system and now they want to further corrupt the structure.

    All for what, so that Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone and Mayo etc. can get more games? And be guaranteed to come out near the top.

    If you want a league, then stick with a league.

    The AI should be straight knockout and let every county take it's chances with an off day. That'd bring back a sense of excitement and hope.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,288 ✭✭✭mickmackey1


    Boom__Boom wrote: »
    The top teams would be delighted with this system but the bottom and mid level teams would be utterly nuts to support it in my opinion.
    Agreed, it will make the chasm between haves and have nots even wider.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,917 ✭✭✭BarryD


    Imagine if Dublin had a bad day in the first round of a knockout and were gone for the year? Or that Kerry v Tyrone came up or whatever? The other counties whether weak, strong or in the middle would all perk up and think - 'hey, we have a chance here'. That'd only be good for the tournament.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭ahlookit


    You do know that revenue is shared, right? So all those CP sell-outs go to fund sliotars in Belmullet and Footballs in Graiguenamanagh! :P

    I hear KK co board have lads on all approach roads with stanley knives ready to burst any O'Neills footballs that try to breach the county boundary ;)

    The only bit I saw in the report was
    "The new structure should increase commercial and broadcast income from the All Ireland senior football championship. A significant proportion of this increase should be ring-fenced for development of our games in less successful counties."


    That seems to be vague enough ... no definition of "significant", "weaker", or how the money would be spent in developing the games...

    Meanwhile Dublin, Kerry, Mayo have more games on TV, more exposure for AIG, Kerry Group and Elverys and presumably more sponsorship money rolling in.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    BarryD wrote: »
    Imagine if Dublin had a bad day in the first round of a knockout and were gone for the year? Or that Kerry v Tyrone came up or whatever? The other counties whether weak, strong or in the middle would all perk up and think - 'hey, we have a chance here'. That'd only be good for the tournament.

    It would be. But as long as we have provincials then we get a format like this.

    This is a decent halfway house while we still have provincials.

    ahlookit wrote: »
    I hear KK co board have lads on all approach roads with stanley knives ready to burst any O'Neills footballs that try to breach the county boundary ;)

    The only bit I saw in the report was
    "The new structure should increase commercial and broadcast income from the All Ireland senior football championship. A significant proportion of this increase should be ring-fenced for development of our games in less successful counties."


    That seems to be vague enough ... no definition of "significant", "weaker", or how the money would be spent in developing the games...

    Meanwhile Dublin, Kerry, Mayo have more games on TV, more exposure for AIG, Kerry Group and Elverys and presumably more sponsorship money rolling in.


    There will always be a few successful counties who are far more successful than others and that will never change.

    If you want that to change then you have to look at the whole structure of the "County".

    And given even for admin purposes that people don't like change (Monksland anyone?) there isn't a hope of a Co Board voting to amalgamate. Sligo-Leitrim anyone?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    I'm not sure how anyone can argue that this isn't a boost for the weaker counties too. If anyone is telling me that Tipp for example wouldn't love 3 of those games this year I'll laugh. They still would have had one other qualifier to play so probably either Clare or Westmeath and also Galway if the group fell that way. They'd relish that and still would have probably made the semi final.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,505 ✭✭✭✭lawred2




    How did you work that one out? If our "home" game is in Parnell Park would you be happier?

    Prickly

    It would be a simple fact that it would lead to more Dublin games per annum.

    Instead of two post provincial championship games - there would be anything up to 5..

    Not saying it's a bad thing

    But there is a huge kicker in doing this for the GAA


  • Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭Mehapoy


    Its interesting and seems like the GAA have finally caught up with the rest of the world in recognising a round robin is the best structure.
    Pros:
    gives a good equal series of games for all top contenders before getting to the semi final stage
    Games at home grounds will be occasions in themselves
    Cons:
    Essentially cuts the lower teams off and does nothing for the weaker counties off

    Danger that it will entrench the top 4 or 5 contenders in a league of their own
    Provincials and early qualifiers are almost a pre season before the top 8 get serious

    Its a good start and quite radical for the GAA itself to propose, they need to get tough with the provinces though and get them to equalise their structures too, they could have groups of 3 in each province to give two games to everybody.


  • Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭Mehapoy


    Its a bit of a mirror image of the Aussie rules structure, they get a final knockout 8 by league games, GAA doing the opposite.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,382 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    You do know that revenue is shared, right? So all those CP sell-outs go to fund sliotars in Belmullet and Footballs in Graiguenamanagh! :P

    Quite a few sliotars up in Belmullet as far as I know, they play more hurling than most parts of Mayo. Or is my knowledge of the Mayo Hurling championship out of date?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭statto25


    Quite a few sliotars up in Belmullet as far as I know, they play more hurling than most parts of Mayo. Or is my knowledge of the Mayo Hurling championship out of date?

    Well out of date! Belmullet haven't had a senior team for a few years now unfortunately.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Jayop wrote: »
    I'm not sure how anyone can argue that this isn't a boost for the weaker counties too. If anyone is telling me that Tipp for example wouldn't love 3 of those games this year I'll laugh. They still would have had one other qualifier to play so probably either Clare or Westmeath and also Galway if the group fell that way. They'd relish that and still would have probably made the semi final.


    Jaysus Jayo!

    Here's what the groups would have been like if this system was in for 2016:

    If it was this year as year one:

    Group 1:
    Kerry
    Galway
    Donegal
    Mayo

    Fixtures:

    Round 1
    Kerry v Galway, Croke Park
    Donegal v Mayo, Croke Park

    Round 2
    Kerry v Donegal, Fitzgerald Stadium, Killarney
    Galway V Mayo, Salthill

    Round 3
    Kerry v Mayo, McHale Park, Castlebar
    Galway v Donegal, MacCumhaill Park, Ballybofey


    Group 2:
    Dublin
    Tyrone
    Tipperary
    Clare

    Fixtures:
    Round 1
    Dublin v Tyrone, Croke Park
    Tipperary v Clare, Croke Park

    Round 2
    Dublin v Tipperary, Parnell Park (), Dublin
    Tyrone v Clare, Healy Park, Omagh

    Round 3
    Dublin v Clare, Cusack Park, Ennis
    Tyrone v Tipperary, Semple Stadium, Thurles
    lawred2 wrote: »
    Prickly

    It would be a simple fact that it would lead to more Dublin games per annum.

    Instead of two post provincial championship games - there would be anything up to 5..

    Not saying it's a bad thing

    But there is a huge kicker in doing this for the GAA

    Well it would be odd if it was going about a structure that lowered revenues wouldn't it?

    This year Dublin played a game in Nowlan Park and come Saturday, 3 in CP.

    Under this proposal they would have by the same stage (assuming they are seeded into the Leinster QF like all the previous years SFinalists are:

    LQF, LSF, LF and 2 AI RR games so that's 5 games.

    I would wager that Dublin travelling for the LQF is going to be a fixture as will travelling for the LSF given how the trip to Nowlan went this year.

    So, it's a case of 2 away and 3 home if we go all the way to the Leinster Final.

    All theoretical but hardly a massive jump in games in CP.

    And in case it's still lost on ye lads from without the Pale; WE WANT TO TRAVEL!


  • Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭kazamo


    I think you should go back to whats being proposed, that the quarters go from knockout to a group style phase.
    A lot of the small grounds are in counties who dont get to the quarters anyhow.

    For Kildare, it might mean a surrendering of home advantage, but playing in Portlaoise 10km from the county bounds still should mean a lot more home fans if playing Kerry (who walloped Kildare last year 7-16 to 0-10 btw in the quarters) than if you chose a neutral venue somewhere half ways between.

    anyhow, the one part of me thinks its too little, but the other part of me is thinking that it is the beginning of an increased and more structured "All Ireland" phase after the provincials and in the longer term a strong round robin of 2x4 might well be the only workable solution.

    (extrapolate further and anticipate the clamour for extra games from other counties that fail to make the last 8 and see the gap to the top teams widening through the extra cash available in the expanded quarters, you might then want a B or even C championship round robin for the ones that dont make the last 8, but thats WAAAY down the line)

    What is being proposed is one home game per team so it's not me falling behind .
    The Kerry analogy is a red herring as they don't travel in huge numbers.

    Dublin playing outside of Croke Park will be an issue as a lot of grounds wont have sufficient capacity, and home advantage will be overridden if it suits the moneymen in the GAA. So the carrot being dangled out by this proposal can easily be adjusted by the CCCC if it suits.

    For example, Dublin and Tyrone meet in Tyrone for last game of QF league stage and both sides need something from the game. Would the capacity of 26,500 be deemed sufficient for a game of that importance ?


    I fail to see how two extra games at the QF stage will have all the weaker counties demanding to play B or C championship games in front of one man and his dog for the eventual prize of a second rate trophy. That was tried before and fell flat on it's face.
    The falling attendances in the provincial games indicate a lack of interest in foregone conclusions and dollying up the QF's into a mini league will I believe generate in weaker counties the same level of interest in the new system as they had in the old.

    The provincial structure has become a procession in all parts bar Ulster and it's time to move on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,382 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    statto25 wrote: »
    Well out of date! Belmullet haven't had a senior team for a few years now unfortunately.

    Ah feck, they need some sliotars then! I remember they were champions when I was a kid but having never played hurling, I haven't paid attention to it since I moved away from the county.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,710 ✭✭✭ahlookit


    statto25 wrote: »
    Well out of date! Belmullet haven't had a senior team for a few years now unfortunately.

    Is it still Tooreen/Ballyhaunis direction that's on top? Didn't some lad in Tooreen have something like 20 county medals?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    If Dublin meet Tyrone and we had home advantage then it could be moved to Clones. Still a home advantage imo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    How does this help clubs? More games isn't what clubs need


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    kazamo wrote: »

    The provincial structure has become a procession in all parts bar Ulster and it's time to move on.

    YES!!!

    But you and I know that that won't happen for a while.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Jayop wrote: »
    If Dublin meet Tyrone and we had home advantage then it could be moved to Clones. Still a home advantage imo.

    Plus a better day out than after Healy Park


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,382 ✭✭✭Duffy the Vampire Slayer


    ahlookit wrote: »
    Is it still Tooreen/Ballyhaunis direction that's on top? Didn't some lad in Tooreen have something like 20 county medals?

    Not surprising. I remember when they didn't make the final one year and it was viewed as a disaster.


  • Registered Users Posts: 815 ✭✭✭kazamo


    YES!!!

    But you and I know that that won't happen for a while.

    Probably, but if attendances keep falling it might happen sooner than we anticipate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    If there's no replays then for many counties there will be fewer games. Also without replays the calender will be set early and the clubs can plan accordingly. There's no reasons County players shouldn't play for their clubs if it's two weeks till the next County game.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Jayop wrote: »
    If there's no replays then for many counties there will be fewer games. Also without replays the calender will be set early and the clubs can plan accordingly. There's no reasons County players shouldn't play for their clubs if it's two weeks till the next County game.

    I see nothing about no draws? The only potential for a draw that has been removed is the quarter finals?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭Nidgeweasel


    I have been saying for years that provincial winners should play at home so pleased with this news. More big games down the country please at various county/provinical grounds.

    Croke Park for a QF? NO!! - Unless it is the Dubs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,909 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,733 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    "This structure does nothing for the weaker counties"

    What structure will?

    If you are a weaker county you are still going to be a weaker county in any structure. Bridging the gap between strong and weak counties is a far more complex issue than tweaking the format of the championship


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation



    Congress will essentially decide.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,909 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    BarryD wrote: »
    But what's wrong with knockout? The AI was a knockout competition that has been corrupted by the 'back door' system and now they want to further corrupt the structure.

    All for what, so that Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone and Mayo etc. can get more games? And be guaranteed to come out near the top.

    If you want a league, then stick with a league.

    The AI should be straight knockout and let every county take it's chances with an off day. That'd bring back a sense of excitement and hope.

    Rubbish, there isnt one major team sport in the world afaik that runs their main competition like that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,388 ✭✭✭✭Jayop


    I see nothing about no draws? The only potential for a draw that has been removed is the quarter finals?

    I suppose I inferred it from this...

    Also, tighter scheduling and a revised policy on replays can bring improvements to the situations that affect the scheduling of club fixtures and the availability of inter-county players to clubs.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,909 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    JeffKenna wrote: »
    It would make it much more interesting if the top team from each group contested the All Ireland final and they scrapped the semi completely, this would more or less make each of the group games do or die.
    You could end up with the third round games in the group being totally meaningless, at least with the top 2 to qualify there is very little chance of 'dead rubbers'


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    "This structure does nothing for the weaker counties"

    What structure will?

    If you are a weaker county you are still going to be a weaker county in any structure. Bridging the gap between strong and weak counties is a far more complex issue than tweaking the format of the championship

    The million dollar question, there is no silver bullet.

    I think it would have to involve weaker counties getting to play Div 1/2 counties more often.

    Todays proposal will lead to stronger teams getting to play stronger teams more often, and the risk is that the weaker counties could get even more isolated.

    They'll have home advantage in their early qualifiers so at least thats a positive step.


  • Registered Users Posts: 629 ✭✭✭Mehapoy


    "This structure does nothing for the weaker counties"

    What structure will?

    If you are a weaker county you are still going to be a weaker county in any structure. Bridging the gap between strong and weak counties is a far more complex issue than tweaking the format of the championship

    Absolutely but at least you can give counties a few regular games to play in summer, not just meet a div 1 team, get hammered then wait for a qualifier for 5 weeks where you get beaten again and the summer over...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Mehapoy wrote: »
    Absolutely but at least you can give counties a few regular games to play in summer, not just meet a div 1 team, get hammered then wait for a qualifier for 5 weeks where you get beaten again and the summer over...

    Something like a B championship ? Tried it twice the weaker counties aren't interested


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Something like a B championship ? Tried it twice the weaker counties aren't interested

    Duffy even said it today; there's no appetite so people can stop suggesting B championships.


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