Keeping firearm in a car

Luckysasha

An interesting conversation came up today in work. If I'm working closer to the range than where my house is located. Is it ok to throw the gun in the car in the morning and leave it in a locked car all day while I'm at work and call in to the range on my way home. Some lads are of the opinion there is an expectation from the Garda that firearms should only be carried in cars for the least amount of time as possible

BrownTrout

I'd agree with the gardaí on this one.

Leaving a firearm in an unattended vehicle is only asking for trouble.

ezra_

Luckysasha wrote: »

An interesting conversation came up today in work. If I'm working closer to the range than where my house is located. Is it ok to throw the gun in the car in the morning and leave it in a locked car all day while I'm at work and call in to the range on my way home. Some lads are of the opinion there is an expectation from the Garda that firearms should only be carried in cars for the least amount of time as possible

IANAL but if you are commuting, your journey starts at home and ends in work. Then picks up again at work as you head off and ends in the range.

If you have the gun in the car, while the car isn't in use you would probably be in breach of the Firearms Secure Storage legislation (whatever it is called) as your journey is over so your gun should be secured as per the legislation.

goz83

If it was necessary to have your gun in the car while you are not in the car, it should be broken down and separated.

For a rife, removing the bolt and taking it with you would be a good start and leave the rest in the boot.

A shotgun, take the fore-end with you (and retaining bolt if a semi). Put the stock end in the passenger compartment, well covered and the barrel in the boot.

That's more, or less the type of info given at a competency course, but to be fair, it didn't really include your scenario and was more for travelling with your gun.

amadablam

Have a look at the conditions on your firearms certificate.

Every single one in my district has one recurring, condition. 'Firearm must never be left in a vehicle unattended'. Not saying that it will be on yours but since I changed districts, its the only condition I have seen on all licenses.

They really don't take a kind view when a Firearm is taken from anywhere, unattended, especially a vehicle.

You would have a fun time explaining why you felt it was ok to do so on the grounds that you were going to save some time for yourself getting to the range later. I'd say, regardless of the precautions, they wouldn't take a very good view of that.

You could ask your local firearms officer though and cover yourself.

Maybe taking out the bolt and using a cable lock through the action and through some fixed points in the boot, might satisfy him?

k31

amadablam wrote: »

Have a look at the conditions on your firearms certificate.

Every single one in my district has one recurring, condition. 'Firearm must never be left in a vehicle unattended'. Not saying that it will be on yours but since I changed districts, its the only condition I have seen on all licenses.

They really don't take a kind view when a Firearm is taken from anywhere, unattended, especially a vehicle.

You would have a fun time explaining why you felt it was ok to do so on the grounds that you were going to save some time for yourself getting to the range later. I'd say, regardless of the precautions, they wouldn't take a very good view of that.

You could ask your local firearms officer though and cover yourself.

Maybe taking out the bolt and using a cable lock through the action and through some fixed points in the boot, might satisfy him?

Have to agree with the above answer. Recently had two firearms in for renewal and on both new licenses a condition that firearms should never be left in an unattended vehicle , which was not on original license. As this is being applied in other divisions I believe this is coming from above and will be applied to all licenses on renewal. Personally I would drive home and collect firearm before going to range. Better safe than sorry.

Cass

Luckysasha wrote: »

Some lads are of the opinion there is an expectation from the Garda that firearms should only be carried in cars for the least amount of time as possible

On principal i'd agree. My routine would be home, range, home. If work was in the equation then the guns aren't.

ezra_ wrote: »

If you have the gun in the car, while the car isn't in use you would probably be in breach of the Firearms Secure Storage legislation (whatever it is called) as your journey is over so your gun should be secured as per the legislation.

The secure accommodation order (SI 307/2009) only pertains to storage of the firearms at your home. The Commissioner's Guidelines give guidelines on how they would like firearms transported to and from the field/range (secure box/case, locked car, trigger lock, etc) however i don't know of any legislation to support this, as in make it a legal necessity.

There is law (legislation/condition on your license), common sense (don't leave a loaded gun, uncased on the back seat of an unlocked car) and then what you're comfortable with (do it or don't).

Personally my firearms are never in the car unless i'm in it. I use cases when traveling to and from the range/field. When working the guns stay at home.

You must judge it for yourself and how it pertains to your circumstances.

Luckysasha

i think we can all agree that common sense has to prevail in these circumstances. I did trawl through the commissioners guidelines to see if anything popped out but there is nothing obvious about transporting firearms. So I guess it's up to each individual and their take on it.

Cass

From the Commissioner's Guidelines. Recommendations/guidelines on safe storage of firearms when traveling/transporting them:

• That possession and carriage of any firearm including a short firearm (barrel under 30cm or overall length not exceeding 30cm)/ammunition concealed on the person in public is not permitted at any time, save in circumstances where such possession and carriage on the person is necessary for a lawful purpose.
• In the case of self loading (semi automatic) pistols and revolvers consideration may be given to a requirement to dismantle each gun when not at the range where it is intended to be used with some necessary parts held at the range.
• During transport, firearms must always be stored in a case/sleeve, out of sight in a locked vehicle boot. They should not be immediately accessible to the driver or any passenger.
• No gun should be loaded with ammunition while traveling to or from a shoot.
• Where possible, rifle bolts and shotgun fore ends, pistol top slides and magazines should be removed and kept separately.
• That the firearm is never left inside the seating area of a vehicle: whether occupied or unattended.
• If it is necessary to stop and leave the vehicle, reasonable steps should be taken to ensure the safety of the firearm in question. It is a good idea to also place in the boot anything which might indicate that a firearm may be in the vehicle e.g.hunting clothing, stalking stick, hunting knife, binoculars, decoys, hunting hat etc.

Luckysasha

Sorry I meant to say that there was nothing clear in the commissioners guidelines about leaving the firearms unattended in a car for any length of time. To be more specific it doesn't give a time limit Ie: leaving the firearm unattended in a vehicle for 30 mins or more you must comply with X y or z. The last point in cass reply covers leaving the vehicle but this could be running in to the shop to get milk or parking the car up for 8 hours at the office.

Cass

Its vague for many reasons:

• A specific amount of time may be unnecessarily restrictive
• No way to actually police it
• A certain amount of common sense is applied so as not to be overly harsh/restrictive
• No legislation to base any guidelines off (An Gardaí cannot legislate only enforce so any specifics would be hard to prosecute)

There are probably more, but you get the idea.

Luckysasha

I agree. I have to say since I started shooting and getting some way familiar with the rules and regulations the common thread seems to be vagueness. The legislation seems to based on trust rather than hard fisted government rules set in stone. I guess the system works so why change it. It's like everything else it will run smoothly the way it is until someone ruins it for everyone else. That's why personally I like to get peoples opinions on topics rather than just ploughing ahead and run the risk of feckin it up by doing something stupid. So thanks one and all for the help and guidance up to this point.

Sparks

Pretty good summary of the law that, to be honest. It's rock-hard and clear-cut in very few places, and in several of those, it's rock-hard, clear-cut wrong and would require people complying with it to break other laws (or at least not be able to be sure they wouldn't). And in most places where questions regularly arise, there is no clear answer at all and it comes down to "ask your local Super", except in some areas where there is literally no answer possible (eg. "Do I need a restricted or an unrestricted licence for this rifle which 50% of gardai think looks like an M-16 and which 50% don't"?).

Chiparus

I always keep the rifle bolt in the car, if my gun safe is robbed, less chance it could be used in anyway. But I am now concerned about the legality of this.

Sparks

You mean you keep it in the car even when at home? That's almost certainly a breach of the licence conditions (because you specified where the firearm would be stored normally and a component of a firearm is itself a firearm under the law so if you split it up and store it in different places, and those places didn't meet the specifications in the SI...)

Chiparus

Sparks wrote: »

You mean you keep it in the car even when at home? That's almost certainly a breach of the licence conditions (because you specified where the firearm would be stored normally and a component of a firearm is itself a firearm under the law so if you split it up and store it in different places, and those places didn't meet the specifications in the SI...)

yep, thats why I love this forum. I did keep the bolt in the car at all times, reasoning that if I was at work and the rifle was stolen it would be near useless. I have moved the bolt and its now with the rifle.
So if its stolen the thief has a usable rifle, but at least I am observing the law.


:rolleyes:

PSXDupe

Just keep the bolt in a seperate location at home.

I keep bolts, mags and slide in a seperate safe than the firearms. The second safe was build into the ground so if the find the first safe, they'll never find the second.

Sparks

PSXDupe wrote: »

Just keep the bolt in a seperate location at home.

If it's a safe, yes. If it's under your mattress... eh, might not be seen as due diligence if you're ever robbed or get a surprise inspection.

Sparks

Chiparus wrote: »

So if its stolen the thief has a usable rifle, but at least I am observing the law.
:rolleyes:

Yup. That's the Firearms Act for you. Half the time I'm surprised it's not written in crayon.

dodderangler

I do be sceptical even when I go to shop after hunting and have the gun in the back seat. I was stopped by Garda before who spotted my guns in the back seat. He had me pulled and checked my guns and licence and ended up bringing him out a week later with his own gun on my land for rabbits. Best not to leave em in plain sight is all il say about it.
Just don't act the bollox an go pub or SOMETHIN

Chiparus

Sparks wrote: »

Yup. That's the Firearms Act for you. Half the time I'm surprised it's not written in crayon.

So this advice from the AGS is not in compliance with the law?

e.g. keeping part of the gun at the range , or keeping the bolt separate?

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/cp%20info%20sheet%20-firearm%20security%20-%20english.pdf

Sparks

Unless the range has met the conditions in the secure storage SI and is listed on your FCA1 as a storage location, that would seem to be the case. But you'd have to go to court to definitively prove it. Given the cost of that, I just wouldn't comply with that portion of that advice in order to be safe (unless the range met the SI's standards and was on my FCA1, that is).

Sparks

To be fair though, that advice dates from 2009, so it's hardly current. The law's changed a few times since then.

Rimfire Shooter

dodderangler wrote: »

I do be sceptical even when I go to shop after hunting and have the gun in the back seat. I was stopped by Garda before who spotted my guns in the back seat. He had me pulled and checked my guns and licence and ended up bringing him out a week later with his own gun on my land for rabbits. Best not to leave em in plain sight is all il say about it.
Just don't act the bollox an go pub or SOMETHIN

I thought leaving firearms on the back seat at any time was a big no no?

clivej

So say I have 2 firearms with the 'Firearm must never be left in a vehicle unattended' condition. On the way to the range or shooting competition I need cash and must call into the bank or Post Office. I also may need a drink or sandwich so a stop at the local shop will be needed as well.
To comply with those conditions do I bring my firearms into the bank, Post Office and shop???
Must they be in a case???
Can I just put them over my shoulder with the rifle sling?? (showing a safety flag is in place of course)

It would seem to me that certain conditions cannot be complied with at all times.

Bad_alibi

Rifle over the shoulder would go down well.

IRLConor

clivej wrote: »

So say I have 2 firearms with the 'Firearm must never be left in a vehicle unattended' condition. On the way to the range or shooting competition I need cash and must call into the bank or Post Office. I also may need a drink or sandwich so a stop at the local shop will be needed as well.
To comply with those conditions do I bring my firearms into the bank, Post Office and shop???
Must they be in a case???
Can I just put them over my shoulder with the rifle sling?? (showing a safety flag is in place of course)

It would seem to me that certain conditions cannot be complied with at all times.

If you need to make a short stop on the way to a range I doubt many Gardai would complain too much so long as anything controlled is locked away properly and out of sight. For bonus points, stick the bolt and/or ammo in your bag/pockets and bring them with you so that if the car is broken into while you're away they don't get anything useful.

If you have a specific condition on your license saying that you may never leave your firearms unattended in a car then I'm pretty sure the Garda answer to your questions above would be something like: "Make two trips. First go out and do your shopping. Then go home, pick up your guns and go straight to the range without stopping." If you want to break those conditions for the sake of convenience, well, you'd better hope nothing ever gets stolen or you'll have a very unhappy chat with the Gardai.

PSXDupe

Common sense needs to apply here.

If you have your firearm(s) in a car, keep them out of sight, keep all items/accessories that would suggest your have a firearm in the car out of sight. Do not decide at the last minute to move your firearm from your back seat to the boot when you are parked.

There are so many "What if...", needed petrol, needed a piss... whatever... just don't make it easy for someone to identify you as having a firearm, and don't make it easy for them to steal it, simple.

If no one knows you have a firearm in the boot of your car, then they are not going to break into your car looking for a firearm.

If you go to the shopping centre and leave a rifle on the back seat of your car with the window down for 2 hours, then you deserve to have licences revoked.

BattleCorp

IRLConor wrote: »

If you have a specific condition on your license saying that you may never leave your firearms unattended in a car then I'm pretty sure the Garda answer to your questions above would be something like: "Make two trips. First go out and do your shopping. Then go home, pick up your guns and go straight to the range without stopping." If you want to break those conditions for the sake of convenience, well, you'd better hope nothing ever gets stolen or you'll have a very unhappy chat with the Gardai.

I've such a condition on my licence. Not very practical to expect me to go from my house to somewhere far away like Lough Bo or An Riocht and not expect me to want to go to the toilet or get a bite to eat somewhere along the way. I can't leave it in the car so bringing it into Supermacs is pretty much my only option.

barnaman

Pretty sure illegal to leave a firearm in an unattended vehicle. Its in one of the Criminal justice acts that amended the various firearms acts that a condition of grant of licence is that firearm has to be under the holder's control at all times. If in an unattended car its not under your control. thats why most jurisdictions/supers have it on the firearms licence that cannot be left in a vehicle.

Sparks

Not saying that that's categorically wrong barnaman, because the firearms act is such a mess, but I can't find the section of it that says what you say it says, and the section of it that sets out the conditions for granting a licence does not have that listed in it explicitly.

Also, if it was in there explicitly, then it would not serve any purpose for the Super or Chief Super to put it in the conditions of the licence because it'd be just repeating itself.

Can you find and quote the section that contains that condition please?

PSXDupe

Sparks wrote: »

Not saying that that's categorically wrong barnaman, because the firearms act is such a mess, but I can't find the section of it that says what you say it says, and the section of it that sets out the conditions for granting a licence does not have that listed in it explicitly.

Also, if it was in there explicitly, then it would not serve any purpose for the Super or Chief Super to put it in the conditions of the licence because it'd be just repeating itself.

Can you find and quote the section that contains that condition please?

I've never seen it either, I know the super can add it as an additional. Luckily I've never had it added to any of mine

Heckler

C'mon we've all done. Stop on the way to the range, pull in for petrol and a coffee etc. Just keep it in the boot and you'll be fine.

I have a chain and padlock attached to the car chassis I can secure to the rifle trigger guard if I'm feeling really paranoid. If I have my pistol with me I leave it in the boot and take the slide with me. Likewise with the rifle bolt.

If I have the pistol only with me and I need to stop for more than 5 minutes I take the bag (an aldi fishing bag) with the whole lot with me. My licence says "you are hereby authorised to have in your possession, use and carry a pistol/rifle /etc subject to any conditions etc."

Even when taking my rifle to the car from my house in a sling I wrap it in a black plastic bin bag to disguise what it is. Overly paranoid no doubt but no harm done.

I wouldn't go strolling in to the local Aldi with a rifle in a soft case over my shoulder even if it is permitted. Just going to attract attention.

I'd wager everyone of us has breached the terms of our licences either accidently or on purpose in a number of ways.

Terms of licence having an alarm in the house. Popped to the shop for 5 mins and didn't put the alarm on ? Breach. etc. etc.

Found you had 20 rounds more than you were supposed to ? What are you going to do ? Turn yourself in ? Bit of sense is all thats needed.

Sparks

Heckler wrote: »

Just keep it in the boot and you'll be fine.

Until you're not, at which point you learn the difference between "it's grand" and "it's grand until someone catches you".

Which isn't to say you're doing something that puts the public at risk, btw, just that the law is an ass.

Terms of licence having an alarm in the house. Popped to the shop for 5 mins and didn't put the alarm on ? Breach. etc. etc.

Oddly, no. The licences says you have to have an alarm, not that it has to be on. Now your insurance might have a few words if you tried to claim on it if the alarm was off, but according to the firearms act, you were grand...

Bit of sense is all thats needed.

Yup. Good luck finding any of that in the Firearms Act though. I've been looking for a while now and really haven't found too much sense in there at all.

Heckler

Sparks wrote: »

Until you're not, at which point you learn the difference between "it's grand" and "it's grand until someone catches you".

Which isn't to say you're doing something that puts the public at risk, btw, just that the law is an ass.


Oddly, no. The licences says you have to have an alarm, not that it has to be on. Now your insurance might have a few words if you tried to claim on it if the alarm was off, but according to the firearms act, you were grand...


Yup. Good luck finding any of that in the Firearms Act though. I've been looking for a while now and really haven't found too much sense in there at all.

Well I wouldn't be worried about the insurance side of things if a firearm was stolen. I'd be more worried about the PTB asking was the alarm on. And while it may not be explicitly said I'm pretty sure that when the Guards say you have to have an alarm they mean that you actually use it. But I agree with you, its a mess.

meathstevie

I for example can for practical reasons ( I drive an open back pick up truck ) not comply with the different compartment of vehicle for transport guideline. Just about all local Gardaí know my old clunker. Didn't cause any issues for renewals or obtaining an additional certificate last year and this year. Safe handling and reasonable precautions are key. A car or a van are not safe storage locations as in most cases simply smashing a window and a quick grab will do the job.

I've personally seen a case from close by in the North where a man had stored one of his shotgun in a car and went duck shooting on an island with another gun and the remaining gun was stolen from the car. He was prosecuted for breeching conditions, fined and licence revoked. It's a different jurisdiction but I reckon the outcome in a local scenario wouldn't be wildly different.

barnaman

Sparks pretty certain I saw it in a Criminal Justice Misc. Provisons Act. Cannot find which one now! Leaving a firearm in a car unattended would get you done IMO on public safety grounds anyway. If removed bolt etc say place you in a better position.

Sparks

There's only the one Criminal Justice (Misc.Provisions) Act that amends the Firearms Act barnaman (it's the 2009 one) and it doesn't say that. In fact, that Act doesn't amend section four at all (section four is where the mandatory legal conditions for granting a firearms cert are listed).

Section 4 currently looks like this:

Conditions of grant of firearm certificate.
4.— (1) An issuing person shall not grant a firearm certificate unless he or she is satisfied that the applicant complies with the conditions referred to in subsection (2) and will continue to comply with them during the currency of the certificate.

(2) The conditions subject to which a firearm certificate may be granted are that, in the opinion of the issuing person, the applicant—

(a) has a good reason for requiring the firearm in respect of which the certificate is applied for,

(b) can be permitted to possess, use and carry the firearm and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the peace,

(c) is not a person declared by this Act to be disentitled to hold a firearm certificate,

(d) has provided secure accommodation for the firearm and ammunition at the place where it is to be kept,

(e) where the firearm is a rifle or pistol to be used for target shooting, is a member of an authorised rifle or pistol club,

(f) has complied with subsection (3),

(g) complies with such other conditions (if any) specified in the firearm certificate, including any such conditions to be complied with before a specified date as the issuing person considers necessary in the interests of public safety or security, and

(h) in case the application is for a restricted firearm certificate—

(i) has a good and sufficient reason for requiring such a firearm, and

(ii) has demonstrated that the firearm is the only type of weapon that is appropriate for the purpose for which it is required.

(3) An applicant for a firearm certificate shall supply to the issuing person the information requested in the application form and such further information as the issuing person may require in the performance of the person’s functions under this Act, including, in particular—

(a) proof of identity,

(b) proof of competence in the use of the firearm concerned,

(c) written consent for any enquiries in relation to the applicant’s medical history that may be made from a health professional by or on behalf of the issuing person, and

(d) names and addresses of two referees who may be contacted to attest to the applicant’s character.

(4) A member of the Garda Síochána may inspect the accommodation for a firearm provided by an applicant for a firearm certificate or require the applicant to provide proof of its existence.

(5) The Minister, in consultation with the Commissioner, may by regulations provide for minimum standards to be complied with by holders of firearm certificates in relation to the provision of secure accommodation for their firearms.

(6) In this section “health professional” means doctor or psychiatrist registered under any enactments governing the profession concerned or a clinical psychologist.

Your super or chief super could add in the condition that the firearm had to be under your control at all times, but if he did, I'd refuse to accept that condition because you can't be in control of the firearms at all times and sleep or go to work. Unless, of course, you slept in the gun safe and took the firearm to work, neither of which is terribly pleasant as solutions go

Wadi14

Annex C of the Commissioners Guidelines, under no circumstances should a firearm or ammo be left unattended even for short periods in vehicles as these are not secure.

Sparks

Yup, but those are the Pirate Code.



I mean, we've had discussions in the last decade or so where things like deadlocks on car boots, welded-in padlock attachment points, welded-to-the-chassis lockboxes and other measures have all been mentioned as acceptable measures in the event someone has to leave the car for short periods - and I mean mentioned by Gardai. There's no actual law covering it at the moment, it's mostly being left to common sense (which is legalese for "there's no law covering what you should have done so if anything does go wrong, you've no way to show due diligence shy of a court case, and nobody's really working on it at the moment").

Personally, I wouldn't risk it, and just drive to the destination nonstop, but I have the luxury of short car journeys. Someone travelling from (say) Kerry to Dublin for the nationals doesn't have that luxury, and the RSA's advice to them is to take a rest stop along the way. So if the Gardai say one thing and the RSA say the other and you're the one making the mistake if you do either mutually exclusive option and the other choice comes up after an accident of some sort... well, it's a fecal sandwich of a situation.

One for the FCP methinks...

barnaman

This is a naive question but do/have you lads who are comp. shooters at a high level raised it with the Minister for Sport/Justice?

Sparks

Minister for Sport wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. I understood it got raised at the FCP when it was first formed, but never got settled due to the fun and games that interrupted the FCP process. I'd hope that it'd be on the agenda now that the FCP's going again, though it's down the list behind things like reloading and so on.

Heckler

In terms of secure storage requirements, what do people traveling as mentioned above, say from kerry to dublin for a comp, do ?

Assuming they are overnighting in a hotel, B&B, with friends or family etc. ?

Can't leave it in the car. Maybe want to socialise out the night before the comp ? Gonna stay in the hotel room with the firearm ? Leave it under the bed while you head out for a while ?

All of the above would seem to breach secure storage requirements.

IRLConor

Heckler wrote: »

In terms of secure storage requirements, what do people traveling as mentioned above, say from kerry to dublin for a comp, do ?

Assuming they are overnighting in a hotel, B&B, with friends or family etc. ?

Can't leave it in the car. Maybe want to socialise out the night before the comp ? Gonna stay in the hotel room with the firearm ? Leave it under the bed while you head out for a while ?

All of the above would seem to breach secure storage requirements.

In my experience (mostly abroad, but a few times here) secure storage is arranged by the organisers of the competition. Abroad, it's been an armoury at the range. Here, it's been the friendly local RFD.

All the ranges here that I've visited either have an onsite RFD or a good working relationship with one nearby so I suspect that's the simplest option for overnight secure storage in Ireland.