Radio - DAB v FM v the alternatives

Carawaystick

Sam Russell wrote: »

Commercial radio should be made use DAB as well.

Dab has lower sound quality than fm, and receivers use much more energy with much shorter battery life.
I can't see any problem dab would solve.

Sam Russell

Carawaystick wrote: »

Dab has lower sound quality than fm, and receivers use much more energy with much shorter battery life.
I can't see any problem dab would solve.

I agree. But if commercial radio will not go onto DAB, maybe we should abandon it altogether - afterall it is only on 'trial'.

DAB could give much better sound quality if they wanted - being digital, the sound quality is governed entirely by the engineering, not atmospherics.

Carawaystick

And the engineering specifies mpeg layer 2 audio.
Which is crap.

Mickey Mike

Just a quick point, I would love to see DAB radio rollout across Ireland, problem is we could see the same ol trouble again with commercial radio holding back or not wanting to go on it, and if that is the case I would be in favor of scraping it totally. Couldn't even get them on saorview/saorsat.

marno21

Mickie Mike wrote: »

Just a quick point, I would love to see DAB radio rollout across Ireland, problem is we could see the same ol trouble again with commercial radio holding back or not wanting to go on it, and if that is the case I would be in favor of scraping it totally. Couldn't even get them on
saorview/saorsat.

If we're going to do it, do it right.

There is no point in doing a large scale rollout of DAB in Ireland in 2016, the technology is beyond obsolete. A modern system (utilising the FM band perhaps) with efficient codec and effective method of bridging the gap between the digital audio transmission and the Internet to provide extensibility.

The Cush

marno21 wrote: »

If we're going to do it, do it right.

There is no point in doing a large scale rollout of DAB in Ireland in 2016, the technology is beyond obsolete. A modern system (utilising the FM band perhaps) with efficient codec and effective method of bridging the gap between the digital audio transmission and the Internet to provide extensibility.

The agreed harmonised digital radio standard in Europe is DAB+ in band III.

The FM band was looked at a few years ago with regard to digital broadcasting but the problem is the band is already heavily used for national, regional and local FM radio services by public and commercial operators, there is no agreed harmonised digital radio standard for the band (up to 5 candidate standards) and so no associated reception equipment, there is no harmonised analogue radio switchoff date and any plan would require frequency replanning which no administration wants and finally no country has proposed any plan to digitise the band.

Norway is switching off FM radio in favour of DAB+ next year and Germany has converted its digital radio network to DAB+ in the last few years and is planning to launch a second national DAB+ mux.

Mickey Mike

The Cush wrote: »

The agreed harmonised digital radio standard in Europe is DAB+ in band III.

The FM band was looked at a few years ago with regard to digital broadcasting but the problem is the band is already heavily used for national, regional and local FM radio services by public and commercial operators, there is no agreed harmonised digital radio standard for the band (up to 5 candidate standards) and so no associated reception equipment, there is no harmonised analogue radio switchoff date and any plan would require frequency replanning which no administration wants and finally no country has proposed any plan to digitise the band.

Norway is switching off FM radio in favour of DAB+ next year and Germany has converted its digital radio network to DAB+ in the last few years and is planning to launch a second national DAB+ mux.

Thanks, this explains it very well with great understanding. Not clever enough to understand Marno21 point, too technical.

Sam Russell

FM is a perfect radio technology for Ireland.

1. It is cheap for users - FM radios are very very cheap to manufacture.
2. It is cheap for broadcasters - look at how many pirate radio stations could set up from a garage.
3. DAB is expensive from both counts above.
4. Battery operation for DAB is difficult because of the heavy electronics needed, but battery operation for FM is very good.
5. The limited number of possible stations for Ireland is not really a problem.
6. The reach of FM is much better than DAB can achieve - partially due to the digital cliff effect.
7. DAB suffers from a decoding delay which is a problem on radio.

Long live FM. Down with DAB.

Mickey Mike

Sam Russell wrote: »

FM is a perfect radio technology for Ireland.

1. It is cheap for users - FM radios are very very cheap to manufacture.
2. It is cheap for broadcasters - look at how many pirate radio stations could set up from a garage.
3. DAB is expensive from both counts above.
4. Battery operation for DAB is difficult because of the heavy electronics needed, but battery operation for FM is very good.
5. The limited number of possible stations for Ireland is not really a problem.
6. The reach of FM is much better than DAB can achieve - partially due to the digital cliff effect.
7. DAB suffers from a decoding delay which is a problem on radio.

Long live FM. Down with DAB.

This post makes all the sense in the world, can't argue with that at all, plus the fact out population is too small unlike the UK (60+million) also the nightmare of getting commercial radio on it. Yes keep our FM, its enough to deal with our digital tv and the carry on.
Better get back to the future of Saorview

Capt'n Midnight

Mickie Mike wrote: »

Thanks, this explains it very well with great understanding. Not clever enough to understand Marno21 point, too technical.

DAB is a solution in search of a problem.

It offers no advantages over FM, especially given the low bit rates in use here. It's not like digital TV where you can dramatically improve the quality at the same time as squeezing loads more channels into the same bandwidth.


Most smartphones can already receive FM. All smartphones can get streamed radio if they have a data connection.

Thanks to network upgrades the areas where you can get DAB but not internet streaming are shrinking. Even then the extra channels over FM are mostly the speciality ones so it's not as if you need to listen live. Or you could listen to MP3's.



You can receive some radio channels on Saorview and Saorsat and Freeview all of which have greater coverage than DAB.

marno21

Sam Russell and Captain Midnight have nailed it here.

PS my post above is advocating a proper digital solution on the offchance we are bound to a digital switchover by an EU directive. I am a massive advocate of FM, switching it off would wreak havoc in many difficult-to-cover parts of Ireland. West Cork would need about 40 relays to cover the area currently covered by Nowen Hill for example.

The Cush

marno21 wrote: »

PS my post above is advocating a proper digital solution on the offchance we are bound to a digital switchover by an EU directive.

There will be no FM switchoff directive from the EU just as there was no analogue TV switchoff directive. FM broadcasting will be around for a long time to come for the majority of European countries as there is no demand for any cleared FM spectrum unlike the UHF band.

icdg

Split from Future of Saorview

Sam Russell

Are there any plans or even possibilities to improve FM? - either in quality or service reach?

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are there any plans or even possibilities to improve FM? - either in quality or service reach?

Haven't seen any discussion on this, probably because the future is digital rather than analogue.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

Haven't seen any discussion on this, probably because the future is digital rather than analogue.

Well, FM is sort of digital and sort of analogue. It is a halfway house - so to speak. If you have enough signal, then the nature of the signal is that you get near noise free and distortion free reception. It does suffer a 'digital cliff' effect but not nearly so abrupt and can be received in poor signal areas with degradation.

If it did not exist, we would have to invent it for the 88-108 fm band. It fits it so well.

Mickey Mike

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are there any plans or even possibilities to improve FM? - either in quality or service reach?

I think it was this time last year I emailed the BAI in connection with DAB rollout, they replied back.
There is no national plan in place for DAB/DAB+ rollout, there is no demand for such a service by the general public, but they is HUGE demand for FM infills. Hope RTE will meet this requirement into the run up to Long Wave shutdown next year.

Sam Russell

They did some self help schemes for analogue TV in the day - I wonder would they try something like that again? Self help allows the locals to provide the site and 2RN provide the equipment which would be very low power stuff as it is a very local fill-in service plus it is old hat technology.

former total

As mobile data coverage and speed increase, DAB becomes ever more pointless. It will never take off here.

I never seem to have luck with internet streaming. Was trying to listen to Nova online a few weeks ago and it just kept rebuffering. So I still don't see it as a replacement for broadcast radio.

Capt'n Midnight

Karsini wrote: »

I never seem to have luck with internet streaming. Was trying to listen to Nova online a few weeks ago and it just kept rebuffering. So I still don't see it as a replacement for broadcast radio.

If you couldn't get FM then I'm guessing DAB isn't an option.

Have you tried tunein or the BBC app ?

Mickey Mike

It definitely looks like a kick up the backside for poor ou'l DAB

byte

DAB should've been kicked up the backside years ago.

former total

Karsini wrote: »

I never seem to have luck with internet streaming. Was trying to listen to Nova online a few weeks ago and it just kept rebuffering. So I still don't see it as a replacement for broadcast radio.

It's not a replacement for FM but it's the nail in the coffin of DAB.

Capt'n Midnight

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are there any plans or even possibilities to improve FM? - either in quality or service reach?

You can't really improve FM using taking more bandwidth. It's a 1930's technology. And it's usually used in places with background noise.

Things like RDS for jumping to an alternative frequency have been around for donkeys years. Receiver technology is improving too. Biggest improvement in FM has been the wider availability of decent affordable headphones. Fill in transmitters would help.

DAB won't fill in gaps in FM coverage.

In theory DAB improves on FM. But only at the higher bit rates not at the low bit rates used here for many stations.

DAB has the advantage of frequency reuse so you use more transmitters, then again you are going to need more transmitters

Mickey Mike

Radio on the Saorview platform is quite good, I have my STB hooked up to my HI FI. I like listening to RTE Gold. Maybe that is the digital radio going forward.

The Spare Bowler

I have been listening to RTE radio on DAB in Dublin for a number of years now, the reception is perfect on both DAB/DAB+. There is about 15 stations with a good selection, every part of the country should be able to get the same service as we have in Dublin. People who say that there is no future for DAB/DAB+ are wrong, we must make better use of the spectrum for national and local radio. Just like television which is now all digital, radio must go the same route.

Digifriendly

The Spare Bowler wrote: »

I have been listening to RTE radio on DAB in Dublin for a number of years now, the reception is perfect on both DAB/DAB+. There is about 15 stations with a good selection, every part of the country should be able to get the same service as we have in Dublin. People who say that there is no future for DAB/DAB+ are wrong, we must make better use of the spectrum for national and local radio. Just like television which is now all digital, radio must go the same route.

I have experienced digital radio here in NI for quite a number of years now but rarely listen to digital stations on the one DAB radio in our house. I listen more to my analogue FM/MW radio and to digital only radio stations on Freeview/Sky. The ASO date for radio in UK keeps getting put back and back and even my present car which I bought only last year has an analogue radio. I get the feeling that DAB has not really taken off in the UK since it was first introduced and people are generally happy to listen to FM/MW most of the time and if they want to listen to digital only stations they either listen through their TV or the internet. BTW I listen also to RTE stations via Saorview or main stations via FM for the FM signal where I live is excellent.

Sam Russell

Digifriendly wrote: »

I have experienced digital radio here in NI for quite a number of years now but rarely listen to digital stations on the one DAB radio in our house. I listen more to my analogue FM/MW radio and to digital only radio stations on Freeview/Sky. The ASO date for radio in UK keeps getting put back and back and even my present car which I bought only last year has an analogue radio. I get the feeling that DAB has not really taken off in the UK since it was first introduced and people are generally happy to listen to FM/MW most of the time and if they want to listen to digital only stations they either listen through their TV or the internet. BTW I listen also to RTE stations via Saorview or main stations via FM for the FM signal where I live is excellent.

The push for DAB comes, I think, from equipment manufacturers, and possibly state broadcasters. The sales of DAB radios are given as the evidence for the popular demand for DAB, not the number who actually tune in.

FM trumps DAB in nearly every aspect of radio broadcasting - cost for listener, cost for broadcaster, ease of use, and reach (ease of receiving in difficult cases). To give the same level of cover, DAB needs many more transmitters.

Gerry Wicklow

DAB is an answer looking for a problem. Almost anyone I know is perfectly happy with FM for home and car use. The only ones who have expressed any interest in DAB are the techie, early adopter types. If it ain't broken.....

Sam Russell

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

DAB is an answer looking for a problem. Almost anyone I know is perfectly happy with FM for home and car use. The only ones who have expressed any interest in DAB are the techie, early adopter types. If it ain't broken.....

The early adopters have DAB, later adopters have DAB+. So, which is why we should drop the whole idea. DAB+ allows even less bandwidth per channel so the sound quality is just above acceptable but more channels can be stuffed into the mux.

Capt'n Midnight

Sam Russell wrote: »

The sales of DAB radios are given as the evidence for the popular demand for DAB, not the number who actually tune in.

Given that practically every DAB radio can receive FM those sales figures are meaningless. And they include stuff like car radios where the consumer doesn't have a choice. It's a safe bet that people buying DAB capable receivers outside of the coverage areas aren't using them for DAB.

It's as valid as counting every smartphone , digital terrestrial and satellite receivers as non-DAB radios. (Freesat means series link on Radio 4) And that's before you include streaming. You'd also have to include the majority of DAB radios in the total since they can receive FM too.

Capt'n Midnight

The Spare Bowler wrote: »

I have been listening to RTE radio on DAB in Dublin for a number of years now, the reception is perfect on both DAB/DAB+. There is about 15 stations with a good selection, every part of the country should be able to get the same service as we have in Dublin. People who say that there is no future for DAB/DAB+ are wrong, we must make better use of the spectrum for national and local radio. Just like television which is now all digital, radio must go the same route.

The Spare Bowler wrote: »

I have been listening to RTE radio on DAB in Dublin for a number of years now, the reception is perfect on both DAB/DAB+. There is about 15 stations with a good selection, every part of the country should be able to get the same service as we have in Dublin. People who say that there is no future for DAB/DAB+ are wrong, we must make better use of the spectrum for national and local radio. Just like television which is now all digital, radio must go the same route.

radio must go the same route

WHY ?

Digital TV is a no-brainer. There's a massive improvement in quality. I'm still amazed at how HD looks compared to the fuzzy pictures on ye olde black and white portable. Huge savings in transmitted power, virtually eliminated multi path and co-channel interference. Look at the UK to see the huge numbers of extra channels that can fit on the band.

DAB on the other hand isn't saving any transmitter power, doesn't use less bandwidth, unless you drop the bit rate way down. Pretty sure there's 15 FM stations in Dublin too. Like mobile phones of course there'll be coverage in the densely populated areas. And like mobile phones the issue is coverage in the back of beyond.


Unlike DAB , most FM smartphones / pocket radios use a 75cm headphone cable as a quarter wavelength antenna on the FM band. ( A tiger tail might improve FM reception )

Sam Russell

FM was the forerunner to digital.

It gave pure, noise free, reception while AM gave noise and distortion even in strong signal areas, and AM was subject to terrible interference for lawnmowers and motorcycles (they now have suppressors on the ignition). FM was immune to all these travails and fostered the BBC Third Programme that meant the BBC was able to broadcast high quality classical music that the purists could appreciate without complaint. FM has improved on that 1950s performance with many improvement granted by modern electronics.

DAB does not improve on the FM level of performance without using huge bandwidth (compared to current norms on DAB) and will not get the required bandwidth for top rate sound quality.

Who wants DAB? (Actually who considers it to be an improvement on FM).

Thurston?

Sam Russell wrote: »

Well, FM is sort of digital and sort of analogue ... It does suffer a 'digital cliff' effect

It is not anyway digital.

Your cliff effect is purely down to limiter circuitry in the receiver: if amplitude is conveying no information, then simply block everything below a certain amplitude, & get rid of co-channel (or near-adjacent) interferers, that will obviously be weaker in a properly planned network.

Sam Russell

Thurston? wrote: »

It is not anyway digital.

Your cliff effect is purely down to limiter circuitry in the receiver: if amplitude is conveying no information, then simply block everything below a certain amplitude, & get rid of co-channel (or near-adjacent) interferers, that will obviously be weaker in a properly planned network.

I did not say it was a digital signal.

It does behave somewhat like a digital signal in that it can reject significant interference, and it does suffer from sudden failure in low signal, while being robust above this level. It delivers good signal to noise performance.

There has been significant improvements in circuitry in the last 60 years which has improved its performance.

Hotblack Desiato

Where can I get the DAB shower radio for a tenner that gives perfect reception on a small trailing wire antenna and runs for months on two AA batteries?

Nowhere, that's where!

The only advantage of DAB is the ability to cram more channels in than FM can, but at least in the Irish market that's pointless. The FM band even in Dublin is not saturated with viable PSB and commercial stations - there is still room in the band for pirates, and TXFM is going to close down. Niche stations cannot survive on FM as it is. Their cost of transmission on DAB will be higher and there is not enough advertising budget to go around, or content...

Sam Russell

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Where can I get the DAB shower radio for a tenner that gives perfect reception on a small trailing wire antenna and runs for months on two AA batteries?

Nowhere, that's where!

The only advantage of DAB is the ability to cram more channels in than FM can, but at least in the Irish market that's pointless. The FM band even in Dublin is not saturated with viable PSB and commercial stations - there is still room in the band for pirates, and TXFM is going to close down. Niche stations cannot survive on FM as it is. Their cost of transmission on DAB will be higher and there is not enough advertising budget to go around, or content...

DAB has significant advantage - it uses band III that has been vacated by TV (although we still reserve a mux for Saorview should we require it). That allows DCERNR to sell bandwidth. Other than that - not so useful.

FM should be good for another 30 years - we have had it for 60 years so far.

The Cush

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Niche stations cannot survive on FM as it is. Their cost of transmission on DAB will be higher and there is not enough advertising budget to go around, or content...

This is where ‘small scale DAB’ multiplexes (DAB mini-muxes) come in, using a new approach developed by Ofcom, allows local and community radio stations to transmit on DAB for a fraction of the cost of current DAB multiplexes.

A small scale DAB trial is underway in the UK, ten short-term trial licences were awarded last year and all are now broadcasting.

The Niocast Digital mux in Manchester was to have carried RTÉ Radio 1 since last Autumn but hasn't happened yet, someone in another thread mentioned licencing issues.

http://licensing.ofcom.org.uk/radio-broadcast-licensing/digital-radio/mux-licensing/small-scale-trial-multiplex-licensing/

Thurston?

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The only advantage of DAB is the ability to cram more channels in than FM ...

What about resistance to multipath? I can't be the only one who's driven into a parking space, only to have the channel I'm listening to disappear ... & then fade in & out as people walk past. And then reverse back a foot or two & it returns ...

Antenna

Thurston? wrote: »

What about resistance to multipath? I can't be the only one who's driven into a parking space, only to have the channel I'm listening to disappear ... & then fade in & out as people walk past. And then reverse back a foot or two & it returns ...

This effect is more noticeable with cars which increasingly have the FM aerial printed on the rear window (with the demister) rather than a car roof aerial. There can be significant reception nulls off the sides of the car, and reflections as you describe will be more noticeable.

Sam Russell

Antenna wrote: »

This effect is more noticeable with cars which increasingly have the FM aerial printed on the rear window (with the demister) rather than a car roof aerial. There can be significant reception nulls off the sides of the car, and reflections as you describe will be more noticeable.

Surely that effect would be worse with DAB than with FM given the shorter wavelength.

Also, do we not use vertical polarisation for FM? - and so a printed horizontal aerial would have problems.

TAFKAlawhec

Digifriendly wrote: »

I have experienced digital radio here in NI for quite a number of years now but rarely listen to digital stations on the one DAB radio in our house. I listen more to my analogue FM/MW radio and to digital only radio stations on Freeview/Sky. The ASO date for radio in UK keeps getting put back and back and even my present car which I bought only last year has an analogue radio. I get the feeling that DAB has not really taken off in the UK since it was first introduced and people are generally happy to listen to FM/MW most of the time and if they want to listen to digital only stations they either listen through their TV or the internet. BTW I listen also to RTE stations via Saorview or main stations via FM for the FM signal where I live is excellent.

There's never been any formal ASO for analogue radio in the UK, only some fanciful ideas by commercial group executives whom would prefer to reduce costs on parallel transmission infrastructure. Also the majority of new cars sold in the UK now have DAB+ receivers as standard, it's mostly cheaper models where FM/AM only radios are still commonly seen.

DAB was very slow to take up in the UK for multitudes of reasons, but in the last few years it's steadied the ship to an extent. The cost of DAB radios has now gone below £20, battery life is much better than it used to be (though still a bit to go to match analogue power) and BBC 6 Music & Absolute 80's are the main DAB success stories with over a million listeners each. There have been recent works to reconfigure frequencies in England recently to help improve coverage of local multiplexes, while in London DAB is more popular than elsewhere in the country as it helps alleviate issues concerning interference from pirate stations in the FM band.

I haven't got the latest breakdown of figures, but the percentage of people who listen to digital radio via their television is quite small from what I remember - it's handy in some circumstances but for most people it isn't a preferred option.

Thurston?

Sam Russell wrote: »

Surely that effect would be worse with DAB than with FM given the shorter wavelength.

DAB is a COFDM signal in a channel about 1.5 MHz wide. The multiple carriers across this channel width aren't going to be equally affected by fading.

Hotblack Desiato

Sam Russell wrote: »

DAB has significant advantage - it uses band III that has been vacated by TV (although we still reserve a mux for Saorview should we require it). That allows DCERNR to sell bandwidth. Other than that - not so useful.

No point lighting up band III to duplicate what we already have in band II. There is no better alternative use for band II I'm aware of instead of broadcast FM, so it's not going to be sold. There is no indication of a need for more commercial stations than can fit in the FM band. RTE Gold / Chill etc can't justify DAB on their own.

The Cush wrote: »

This is where ‘small scale DAB’ multiplexes (DAB mini-muxes) come in, using a new approach developed by Ofcom, allows local and community radio stations to transmit on DAB for a fraction of the cost of current DAB multiplexes.

Cheaper than low power FM?

Again we're back to the lack of viable content and how to fund it. DAB makes more content physically possible, it doesn't make more content financially viable (even ignoring the transmission costs issue.)

Thurston? wrote: »

What about resistance to multipath? I can't be the only one who's driven into a parking space, only to have the channel I'm listening to disappear ... & then fade in & out as people walk past. And then reverse back a foot or two & it returns ...

Not much of a use case really, though, is it?

Sam Russell

Thurston? wrote: »

DAB is a COFDM signal in a channel about 1.5 MHz wide. The multiple carriers across this channel width aren't going to be equally affected by fading.

Get a better car aerial - vertically polarised.

Antenna

Sam Russell wrote: »

Surely that effect would be worse with DAB than with FM given the shorter wavelength.

Also, do we not use vertical polarisation for FM? - and so a printed horizontal aerial would have problems.

The FM aerials on the rear window demister is a line going from top to bottom of the window, either one or two of them depending on the car, so it is slanted - more vertical than horizontal.
As I said some cars have two FM aerials on the rear window and the radio selects which one is giving the better signal.
However a roof aerial will give the best reception and is less likely to be affected by interference from the increasing amount of electronics in modern cars (which would be worse at Band II than Band III)

The Cush wrote: »

A small scale DAB trial is underway in the UK, ten short-term trial licences were awarded last year and all are now broadcasting.

There is a lot of comment about poor coverage of these trials within the intended areas, with poor building penetration etc compared to the regular DAB services, they would all need fairly substantial power increases (if feasible) to make any impact with the majority of DAB listeners.

SimonMaher

I am as always surprised in these debates to hear people discussing DAB as a replacement for FM. I don't see DAB(+) ever replacing FM here, nor should it. FM is a simple, proven technology and long may it reign!

Now, DAB can have it's place too - as a complimentary platform. We tend to obsess about the technologies and the demands from the general public/lack of demand and we get caught up in that. Let's face it though, all that matters is content and that's the way it should be. If you can provide content that people want to listen to, then get it on as many platforms as you can. If it's good, people will listen. If it's not, they won't.

Don't worry about the nonsense of Commercial radio not wanting to get on board with DAB. If they see content getting listeners on any platform then they will follow, you can be sure of that. Licence DAB, see will people take on the operation of the Multiplex (they will!), see can they sell space to content providers (that's for them to figure out) and if it works, then grand. If it doesn't, what's the harm in trying?

Simon

Thurston?

Sam Russell wrote: »

Get a better car aerial - vertically polarised.

My car aerial is on the roof, & anyway, most of 2RN's FM transmitting aerials are mixed polarisation, & I'd be pretty sure that's also the case with the UK stations I can receive. (Good reception, near the border.)

The Cush

Antenna wrote: »

There is a lot of comment about poor coverage of these trials within the intended areas, with poor building penetration etc compared to the regular DAB services, they would all need fairly substantial power increases (if feasible) to make any impact with the majority of DAB listeners.

Read similar alright, this is a small indefinite Ofcom trial after all where issues relating to this type of mux can be investigated and resolved before formal licences are eventually issued.

Mickey Mike

Sam Russell wrote: »

They did some self help schemes for analogue TV in the day - I wonder would they try something like that again? Self help allows the locals to provide the site and 2RN provide the equipment which would be very low power stuff as it is a very local fill-in service plus it is old hat technology.

Speaking of sites, RTE own a very large number of these sites all over the country. Most of them abandoned after TV ASO, I still see the mast standing in Listowel and Abbeyfeale and no doubt all over the place. But its the will to do it, maybe with the closer of LW 252 and maybe the scraping of DAB we'll get one format right at least, A top of the range FM service.