Radio - DAB v FM v the alternatives

Carawaystick

Sam Russell wrote: »

Commercial radio should be made use DAB as well.

Dab has lower sound quality than fm, and receivers use much more energy with much shorter battery life.
I can't see any problem dab would solve.

Sam Russell

Carawaystick wrote: »

Dab has lower sound quality than fm, and receivers use much more energy with much shorter battery life.
I can't see any problem dab would solve.

I agree. But if commercial radio will not go onto DAB, maybe we should abandon it altogether - afterall it is only on 'trial'.

DAB could give much better sound quality if they wanted - being digital, the sound quality is governed entirely by the engineering, not atmospherics.

Carawaystick

And the engineering specifies mpeg layer 2 audio.
Which is crap.

Mickey Mike

Just a quick point, I would love to see DAB radio rollout across Ireland, problem is we could see the same ol trouble again with commercial radio holding back or not wanting to go on it, and if that is the case I would be in favor of scraping it totally. Couldn't even get them on saorview/saorsat.

marno21

Mickie Mike wrote: »

Just a quick point, I would love to see DAB radio rollout across Ireland, problem is we could see the same ol trouble again with commercial radio holding back or not wanting to go on it, and if that is the case I would be in favor of scraping it totally. Couldn't even get them on
saorview/saorsat.

If we're going to do it, do it right.

There is no point in doing a large scale rollout of DAB in Ireland in 2016, the technology is beyond obsolete. A modern system (utilising the FM band perhaps) with efficient codec and effective method of bridging the gap between the digital audio transmission and the Internet to provide extensibility.

The Cush

marno21 wrote: »

If we're going to do it, do it right.

There is no point in doing a large scale rollout of DAB in Ireland in 2016, the technology is beyond obsolete. A modern system (utilising the FM band perhaps) with efficient codec and effective method of bridging the gap between the digital audio transmission and the Internet to provide extensibility.

The agreed harmonised digital radio standard in Europe is DAB+ in band III.

The FM band was looked at a few years ago with regard to digital broadcasting but the problem is the band is already heavily used for national, regional and local FM radio services by public and commercial operators, there is no agreed harmonised digital radio standard for the band (up to 5 candidate standards) and so no associated reception equipment, there is no harmonised analogue radio switchoff date and any plan would require frequency replanning which no administration wants and finally no country has proposed any plan to digitise the band.

Norway is switching off FM radio in favour of DAB+ next year and Germany has converted its digital radio network to DAB+ in the last few years and is planning to launch a second national DAB+ mux.

Mickey Mike

The Cush wrote: »

The agreed harmonised digital radio standard in Europe is DAB+ in band III.

The FM band was looked at a few years ago with regard to digital broadcasting but the problem is the band is already heavily used for national, regional and local FM radio services by public and commercial operators, there is no agreed harmonised digital radio standard for the band (up to 5 candidate standards) and so no associated reception equipment, there is no harmonised analogue radio switchoff date and any plan would require frequency replanning which no administration wants and finally no country has proposed any plan to digitise the band.

Norway is switching off FM radio in favour of DAB+ next year and Germany has converted its digital radio network to DAB+ in the last few years and is planning to launch a second national DAB+ mux.

Thanks, this explains it very well with great understanding. Not clever enough to understand Marno21 point, too technical.

Sam Russell

FM is a perfect radio technology for Ireland.

1. It is cheap for users - FM radios are very very cheap to manufacture.
2. It is cheap for broadcasters - look at how many pirate radio stations could set up from a garage.
3. DAB is expensive from both counts above.
4. Battery operation for DAB is difficult because of the heavy electronics needed, but battery operation for FM is very good.
5. The limited number of possible stations for Ireland is not really a problem.
6. The reach of FM is much better than DAB can achieve - partially due to the digital cliff effect.
7. DAB suffers from a decoding delay which is a problem on radio.

Long live FM. Down with DAB.

Mickey Mike

Sam Russell wrote: »

FM is a perfect radio technology for Ireland.

1. It is cheap for users - FM radios are very very cheap to manufacture.
2. It is cheap for broadcasters - look at how many pirate radio stations could set up from a garage.
3. DAB is expensive from both counts above.
4. Battery operation for DAB is difficult because of the heavy electronics needed, but battery operation for FM is very good.
5. The limited number of possible stations for Ireland is not really a problem.
6. The reach of FM is much better than DAB can achieve - partially due to the digital cliff effect.
7. DAB suffers from a decoding delay which is a problem on radio.

Long live FM. Down with DAB.

This post makes all the sense in the world, can't argue with that at all, plus the fact out population is too small unlike the UK (60+million) also the nightmare of getting commercial radio on it. Yes keep our FM, its enough to deal with our digital tv and the carry on.
Better get back to the future of Saorview

Capt'n Midnight

Mickie Mike wrote: »

Thanks, this explains it very well with great understanding. Not clever enough to understand Marno21 point, too technical.

DAB is a solution in search of a problem.

It offers no advantages over FM, especially given the low bit rates in use here. It's not like digital TV where you can dramatically improve the quality at the same time as squeezing loads more channels into the same bandwidth.


Most smartphones can already receive FM. All smartphones can get streamed radio if they have a data connection.

Thanks to network upgrades the areas where you can get DAB but not internet streaming are shrinking. Even then the extra channels over FM are mostly the speciality ones so it's not as if you need to listen live. Or you could listen to MP3's.



You can receive some radio channels on Saorview and Saorsat and Freeview all of which have greater coverage than DAB.

marno21

Sam Russell and Captain Midnight have nailed it here.

PS my post above is advocating a proper digital solution on the offchance we are bound to a digital switchover by an EU directive. I am a massive advocate of FM, switching it off would wreak havoc in many difficult-to-cover parts of Ireland. West Cork would need about 40 relays to cover the area currently covered by Nowen Hill for example.

The Cush

marno21 wrote: »

PS my post above is advocating a proper digital solution on the offchance we are bound to a digital switchover by an EU directive.

There will be no FM switchoff directive from the EU just as there was no analogue TV switchoff directive. FM broadcasting will be around for a long time to come for the majority of European countries as there is no demand for any cleared FM spectrum unlike the UHF band.

icdg

Split from Future of Saorview

Sam Russell

Are there any plans or even possibilities to improve FM? - either in quality or service reach?

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are there any plans or even possibilities to improve FM? - either in quality or service reach?

Haven't seen any discussion on this, probably because the future is digital rather than analogue.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

Haven't seen any discussion on this, probably because the future is digital rather than analogue.

Well, FM is sort of digital and sort of analogue. It is a halfway house - so to speak. If you have enough signal, then the nature of the signal is that you get near noise free and distortion free reception. It does suffer a 'digital cliff' effect but not nearly so abrupt and can be received in poor signal areas with degradation.

If it did not exist, we would have to invent it for the 88-108 fm band. It fits it so well.

Mickey Mike

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are there any plans or even possibilities to improve FM? - either in quality or service reach?

I think it was this time last year I emailed the BAI in connection with DAB rollout, they replied back.
There is no national plan in place for DAB/DAB+ rollout, there is no demand for such a service by the general public, but they is HUGE demand for FM infills. Hope RTE will meet this requirement into the run up to Long Wave shutdown next year.

Sam Russell

They did some self help schemes for analogue TV in the day - I wonder would they try something like that again? Self help allows the locals to provide the site and 2RN provide the equipment which would be very low power stuff as it is a very local fill-in service plus it is old hat technology.

former total

As mobile data coverage and speed increase, DAB becomes ever more pointless. It will never take off here.

I never seem to have luck with internet streaming. Was trying to listen to Nova online a few weeks ago and it just kept rebuffering. So I still don't see it as a replacement for broadcast radio.

Capt'n Midnight

Karsini wrote: »

I never seem to have luck with internet streaming. Was trying to listen to Nova online a few weeks ago and it just kept rebuffering. So I still don't see it as a replacement for broadcast radio.

If you couldn't get FM then I'm guessing DAB isn't an option.

Have you tried tunein or the BBC app ?

Mickey Mike

It definitely looks like a kick up the backside for poor ou'l DAB

byte

DAB should've been kicked up the backside years ago.

former total

Karsini wrote: »

I never seem to have luck with internet streaming. Was trying to listen to Nova online a few weeks ago and it just kept rebuffering. So I still don't see it as a replacement for broadcast radio.

It's not a replacement for FM but it's the nail in the coffin of DAB.

Capt'n Midnight

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are there any plans or even possibilities to improve FM? - either in quality or service reach?

You can't really improve FM using taking more bandwidth. It's a 1930's technology. And it's usually used in places with background noise.

Things like RDS for jumping to an alternative frequency have been around for donkeys years. Receiver technology is improving too. Biggest improvement in FM has been the wider availability of decent affordable headphones. Fill in transmitters would help.

DAB won't fill in gaps in FM coverage.

In theory DAB improves on FM. But only at the higher bit rates not at the low bit rates used here for many stations.

DAB has the advantage of frequency reuse so you use more transmitters, then again you are going to need more transmitters

Mickey Mike

Radio on the Saorview platform is quite good, I have my STB hooked up to my HI FI. I like listening to RTE Gold. Maybe that is the digital radio going forward.

The Spare Bowler

I have been listening to RTE radio on DAB in Dublin for a number of years now, the reception is perfect on both DAB/DAB+. There is about 15 stations with a good selection, every part of the country should be able to get the same service as we have in Dublin. People who say that there is no future for DAB/DAB+ are wrong, we must make better use of the spectrum for national and local radio. Just like television which is now all digital, radio must go the same route.

Digifriendly

The Spare Bowler wrote: »

I have been listening to RTE radio on DAB in Dublin for a number of years now, the reception is perfect on both DAB/DAB+. There is about 15 stations with a good selection, every part of the country should be able to get the same service as we have in Dublin. People who say that there is no future for DAB/DAB+ are wrong, we must make better use of the spectrum for national and local radio. Just like television which is now all digital, radio must go the same route.

I have experienced digital radio here in NI for quite a number of years now but rarely listen to digital stations on the one DAB radio in our house. I listen more to my analogue FM/MW radio and to digital only radio stations on Freeview/Sky. The ASO date for radio in UK keeps getting put back and back and even my present car which I bought only last year has an analogue radio. I get the feeling that DAB has not really taken off in the UK since it was first introduced and people are generally happy to listen to FM/MW most of the time and if they want to listen to digital only stations they either listen through their TV or the internet. BTW I listen also to RTE stations via Saorview or main stations via FM for the FM signal where I live is excellent.

Sam Russell

Digifriendly wrote: »

I have experienced digital radio here in NI for quite a number of years now but rarely listen to digital stations on the one DAB radio in our house. I listen more to my analogue FM/MW radio and to digital only radio stations on Freeview/Sky. The ASO date for radio in UK keeps getting put back and back and even my present car which I bought only last year has an analogue radio. I get the feeling that DAB has not really taken off in the UK since it was first introduced and people are generally happy to listen to FM/MW most of the time and if they want to listen to digital only stations they either listen through their TV or the internet. BTW I listen also to RTE stations via Saorview or main stations via FM for the FM signal where I live is excellent.

The push for DAB comes, I think, from equipment manufacturers, and possibly state broadcasters. The sales of DAB radios are given as the evidence for the popular demand for DAB, not the number who actually tune in.

FM trumps DAB in nearly every aspect of radio broadcasting - cost for listener, cost for broadcaster, ease of use, and reach (ease of receiving in difficult cases). To give the same level of cover, DAB needs many more transmitters.

Gerry Wicklow

DAB is an answer looking for a problem. Almost anyone I know is perfectly happy with FM for home and car use. The only ones who have expressed any interest in DAB are the techie, early adopter types. If it ain't broken.....

Sam Russell

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

DAB is an answer looking for a problem. Almost anyone I know is perfectly happy with FM for home and car use. The only ones who have expressed any interest in DAB are the techie, early adopter types. If it ain't broken.....

The early adopters have DAB, later adopters have DAB+. So, which is why we should drop the whole idea. DAB+ allows even less bandwidth per channel so the sound quality is just above acceptable but more channels can be stuffed into the mux.