Radio - DAB v FM v the alternatives

former total

The logistics might be easier for local stations but the economics make even less sense.

SimonMaher

Back to the same argument again and again! Why doesn't the regulator just advertise the MUX licence/s? Then, big grown-ups will either invest or not invest. They will either recoup, or not recoup their investment. Content providers will either get on board or not get on board. Listeners will either listen or not listen.

The reason this hasn't happened isn't about technology, it isn't about Capital costs, it isn't about anything else other than protecting the existing players in the market. Let's at least be honest enough to just accept that much!

Simon

Carawaystick

Interesting write up on theRegister about OFCOM in the uk allowing small scale trials of dab

rogue-entity

Comreg has been allowing small scale trials of various radio technologies for years though under the Test and Trial program. It would be under this program that 'TOTAL-DAB' and 'DAB Ireland Mux2' have their licenses.

The problem is convincing Comreg to issue a permanent license for the frequency (which you'd think would not be an issue given that large chunks of VHF Band 3 are a wasteland with no planned future use).

I want such a license and inquired but was bounced from pillar to post with no-one willing to give me a straight answer.

Mickey Mike

I don't know what thread to write this in, but here I go.
I notice in my neck of the woods where 2rn are operating their Radio services at different strength. The funny thing is Today FM on 101.0 is twice the power of Radio 1 on 89.2 mHz, How could this be when its coming from the same 2rn tx. I emailed 2rn 4 months ago and got no response from them. They were on Cnoc on Oir during the week carrying out maintenance but now seem worse than ever. A lot of hiss on the 4 RTE R services, and Today FM is ferfect. That is the problem with analogue radio. Digital Radio on the Saorview platform beats them all hands down when you have a Saorview STB connected to a Hi Fi.
I hope all commercial and local Radio launch on Saorview.

Hotblack Desiato

Not really fair to compare a DTT TV with (presumably) outdoor, high-mounted UHF aerial to a portable FM radio with a telescopic aerial - did you even extend it? or a shower radio with a bit of a wire, or a car radio with a sharkfin.

Also digital reception works great right up to the point where it doesn't work at all. A weak analogue signal can still be listenable.

marno21

Mickey Mike wrote: »

I don't know what thread to write this in, but here I go.
I notice in my neck of the woods where 2rn are operating their Radio services at different strength. The funny thing is Today FM on 101.0 is twice the power of Radio 1 on 89.2 mHz, How could this be when its coming from the same 2rn tx. I emailed 2rn 4 months ago and got no response from them. They were on Cnoc on Oir during the week carrying out maintenance but now seem worse than ever. A lot of hiss on the 4 RTE R services, and Today FM is ferfect. That is the problem with analogue radio. Digital Radio on the Saorview platform beats them all hands down when you have a Saorview STB connected to a Hi Fi.
I hope all commercial and local Radio launch on Saorview.

Take a trip in the car and see how the RTE stations are, if there's hiss it's likely a problem with the receive antenna, RTE radio from Knockanore is a rebroadcast of Maghera, and as such may have a fault with the receive system.

Today FM from Knockanore should be the same as the rest of the services, it's on par with the rest here in NW Cork, in fact the strongest is usually Lyric FM (98.7). Kerry seems to be the strongest of all six services from Knockanore on 97.6, although that could be down to radiation pattern.

Mickey Mike

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not really fair to compare a DTT TV with (presumably) outdoor, high-mounted UHF aerial to a portable FM radio with a telescopic aerial - did you even extend it? or a shower radio with a bit of a wire, or a car radio with a sharkfin.

Also digital reception works great right up to the point where it doesn't work at all. A weak analogue signal can still be listenable.

I know all that and I'm not knocking FM in any way, just highlighting the different levels of power output coming from transmitters when they should be the same. Strange how different strengths coming from different locations. It used to be all the same at 2kw, Today FM is much stronger and is on a par with Radio Kerry.

Mickey Mike

Sam Russell wrote: »

Are there any plans or even possibilities to improve FM? - either in quality or service reach?

When RTE first announced of its LW 252 switch off in 2014, they said it will concentrate on DAB and FM improvement (hearus@rte.ie) but none has happened thus far. In my view Digital is better if RTE won't improve the radio signal on the lower power transmitters. I phoned them about it and they said they "don't want to be wasting electricity, they are only infills" .
I don't think RTE have any interest in the FM service at all. So I'd like to see a rollout of DAB+ across Ireland
The last thing I want to see is Internet Radio talking over.

marno21

Mickey Mike wrote: »

When RTE first announced of its LW 252 switch off in 2014, they said it will concentrate on DAB and FM improvement (hearus@rte.ie) but none has happened thus far. In my view Digital is better if RTE won't improve the radio signal on the lower power transmitters. I phoned them about it and they said they "don't want to be wasting electricity, they are only infills" .
I don't think RTE have any interest in the FM service at all. So I'd like to see a rollout of DAB+ across Ireland
The last thing I want to see is Internet Radio talking over.

I can't think of any FM relay of RTE's that's underpowered.

The idea here with a lot of FM relays is blasting out very high power signals to avoid having to build, further, appropriate relays. The net effect of this is that a lot of people have signal riddled with multipath, interfering signals and people then in good coverage areas can receive RTE stations on many frequencies.

Tralee can get RTE Radio 1 on 88.4, 88.8, 89.2 and 90.0. A few kms west of Tralee there is no RTE FM signal.

stephend2000

marno21 wrote: »

Mickey Mike wrote: »

When RTE first announced of its LW 252 switch off in 2014, they said it will concentrate on DAB and FM improvement (hearus@rte.ie) but none has happened thus far. In my view Digital is better if RTE won't improve the radio signal on the lower power transmitters. I phoned them about it and they said they "don't want to be wasting electricity, they are only infills" .
I don't think RTE have any interest in the FM service at all. So I'd like to see a rollout of DAB+ across Ireland
The last thing I want to see is Internet Radio talking over.

I can't think of any FM relay of RTE's that's underpowered.

The idea here with a lot of FM relays is blasting out very high power signals to avoid having to build, further, appropriate relays. The net effect of this is that a lot of people have signal riddled with multipath, interfering signals and people then in good coverage areas can receive RTE stations on many frequencies.

Tralee can get RTE Radio 1 on 88.4, 88.8, 89.2 and 90.0. A few kms west of Tralee there is no RTE FM signal.

Can confirm that in areas of west Kerry the FM signal is very hit and miss.

marno21

stephend2000 wrote: »

Can confirm that in areas of west Kerry the FM signal is very hit and miss.

Indeed. The solution here would be designated relays for these areas, rather than increasing power at main sites.

What areas of west Kerry are you thinking of in particular ?

Capt'n Midnight

stephend2000 wrote: »

Can confirm that in areas of west Kerry the FM signal is very hit and miss.

At least FM degrades to mono and gets noisy rather than the all or nothing of the digital cliff.

Mickey Mike

Yes, west Kerry is miss and hit, that's why increases in the LOWER power transmitters is needed to fill even more gaps, just like Today FM, they have better coverage than RTE.

Hotblack Desiato

When we still had Radio 1 on MW was the MW coverage in these FM blackspots any good?

Mickey Mike

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

When we still had Radio 1 on MW was the MW coverage in these FM blackspots any good?

The MW signal offered full coverage everywhere when it was on 500kw (full power).

Hotblack Desiato

It should never have been turned off!

stephend2000

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It should never have been turned off!

Or they could just increase tx power/setup a new repeater. This would give the listener R1, 2FM, Lyric and RnaG with much better quality. In reality, the average bloke from west Kerry commuting to Tralee won't want to switch between FM and MW for different stations.

galtee boy

A lot of BBC Local radio stations are starting to shut down their medium wave frequencies, now that DAB is so strong and popular in the UK. Eventually, we will probably lose Five Live and Radio 4 here in Ireland, when they eventually shut down medium wave and LW also.

Capt'n Midnight

galtee boy wrote: »

A lot of BBC Local radio stations are starting to shut down their medium wave frequencies, now that DAB is so strong and popular in the UK.

Define popular.

Just because you own a DAB radio doesn't mean you listen to it most.
All new cars may have DAB but most people don't own cars.

DAB still doesn't have the footprint Walkmans had or that Android phones have.

galtee boy

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Define popular.

Just because you own a DAB radio doesn't mean you listen to it most.
All new cars may have DAB but most people don't own cars.

DAB still doesn't have the footprint Walkmans had or that Android phones have.

Define popular, here you are :

http://home.bt.com/tech-gadgets/dab-digital-radio-switchover-fm-uk-11364137002537

Capt'n Midnight

galtee boy wrote: »

Define popular, here you are :

http://home.bt.com/tech-gadgets/dab-digital-radio-switchover-fm-uk-11364137002537

By that logic we should close all TV transmitters in the country since less than 50% use saorview as their primary vewing option ?

Also from your link https://www.rajar.co.uk/docs/news/RAJAR_DataRelease_InfographicQ42017.pdf
The digital share is comprised of DAB (36.3%), Online/App (8.5%) and Digital TV (5.1%)


So FM at 50% still beats DAB. And that's before you consider it's fill-in effect.

DAB is not being demand led.

Digifriendly

galtee boy wrote: »

A lot of BBC Local radio stations are starting to shut down their medium wave frequencies, now that DAB is so strong and popular in the UK. Eventually, we will probably lose Five Live and Radio 4 here in Ireland, when they eventually shut down medium wave and LW also.

There is no Switch off date for national stations for FM/MW/LW in UK nor is there likely to be for some time. Majority of domestic radios currently sold in UK are analogue only. UK government minister of State for Digital is vague at best on switchover eg. he said last year the Government will consider whether to set a timetable for switchover when 50% of listening to digital only is achieved. So I wouldn't panic quite yet.
Problem for me here in N. Ireland re radio switch to digital only will be loss of BBC Wales and BBC Scotland from car radio unless I invest in an internet streaming car radio if such a one exists. I can receive UK national stations ok on DAB but I still tend to listen to them on either FM or MW.

galtee boy

Digifriendly wrote: »

There is no Switch off date for national stations for FM/MW/LW in UK nor is there likely to be for some time. Majority of domestic radios currently sold in UK are analogue only. UK government minister of State for Digital is vague at best on switchover eg. he said last year the Government will consider whether to set a timetable for switchover when 50% of listening to digital only is achieved. So I wouldn't panic quite yet.
Problem for me here in N. Ireland re radio switch to digital only will be loss of BBC Wales and BBC Scotland from car radio unless I invest in an internet streaming car radio if such a one exists. I can receive UK national stations ok on DAB but I still tend to listen to them on either FM or MW.

I was in a John Lewis store in Kingston in Surrey earlier on this year, where they have a big electrical department and you would struggle to find the analogue radios, whereas there were rows of DAB radios, from tiny pocket ones to some seriously big ones. I know a lot of the DAB ones would have analogue tuners as well, but they weren't promoted that way. While there is no need to panic, I would predict a UK switch to DAB only within 10 years, max.

Mickey Mike

All we want here is a better signal output from RTE to match that of Today FM, and let it last as long as it can. I don't know what the future technology is for radio but let us embrace FM

Digifriendly

galtee boy wrote: »

Digifriendly wrote: »

There is no Switch off date for national stations for FM/MW/LW in UK nor is there likely to be for some time. Majority of domestic radios currently sold in UK are analogue only. UK government minister of State for Digital is vague at best on switchover eg. he said last year the Government will consider whether to set a timetable for switchover when 50% of listening to digital only is achieved. So I wouldn't panic quite yet.
Problem for me here in N. Ireland re radio switch to digital only will be loss of BBC Wales and BBC Scotland from car radio unless I invest in an internet streaming car radio if such a one exists. I can receive UK national stations ok on DAB but I still tend to listen to them on either FM or MW.

I was in a John Lewis store in Kingston in Surrey earlier on this year, where they have a big electrical department and you would struggle to find the analogue radios, whereas there were rows of DAB radios, from tiny pocket ones to some seriously big ones. I know a lot of the DAB ones would have analogue tuners as well, but they weren't promoted that way. While there is no need to panic, I would predict a UK switch to DAB only within 10 years, max.

You maybe right re timescale. However stores promoting DAB is one thing and consumers actually purchasing is another. Its a bit like SD/HD on TV where many viewers in UK still seem happy to watch through non HD equipment. So no hurry to move to HD only. In this respect Ireland is well ahead of UK having no RTE 1/2 in SD on DTT.
The car radio issue may quicken up the UK switch to DAB for IIRC all cars manufactured from 2016 onwards have DAB radios fitted.

Digifriendly

By end of last year nearly 90% of all new cars registered in UK had digital radio fitted as standard although less than a third of all cars had digital radio while under 50% of radio listening is digital. I think the best way to quicken up switch to DAB would be to no longer sell radios with FM/MW. Ok for my home situation as I have stations like BBC Scot/Wales on Sky and also good internet connection but car a different matter.

TAFKAlawhec

Digifriendly wrote: »

Majority of domestic radios currently sold in UK are analogue only.

<citation needed>