Radio - DAB v FM v the alternatives

marno21

The Cush wrote: »

Won't be happening according to RTÉ

Funny how half the country had VHF Band III antennas when the Saorview rollout was being planned.

The Cush

marno21 wrote: »

Funny how half the country had VHF Band III antennas when the Saorview rollout was being planned.

Many now removed since ASO including my own, others will remain until they fall down no doubt.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

Won't be happening according to RTÉ

I was not thinking of RTE doing it but small local TV setups with community based channels. It would work in Dublin from Three Rock, and in Leinster from Mount Leinster. Other sites like Magherer could also be used. Local radio - but TV.

It would be DVB-T based, single mux, low power with robust signal like the NI mini mux.

Might work. If it was any good, then aerials would pop up everywhere.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was not thinking of RTE doing it but small local TV setups with community based channels. It would work in Dublin from Three Rock, and in Leinster from Mount Leinster. Other sites like Magherer could also be used. Local radio - but TV.

It would be DVB-T based, single mux, low power with robust signal like the NI mini mux.

Might work. If it was any good, then aerials would pop up everywhere.

What would be the cost of upgrading these transmitters for VHF broadcasting, RTÉ are already €50m+ in debt with further borrowing required for clearing the 700MHz band over the next 4 years. Who would pay for the carriage and transmission of these local based community channels?

What incentive would there be for anyone to install a second larger VHF aerial for the reception of a few local channels? Been there, done that, larger VHF aerial with VHF/UHF mast combiner, don't particularly want that again.

The future for local channels will be IPTV in my opinion and Saorview Connect, combined with the rollout of FTTH/NBP, will be the first step in this direction.

Mickey Mike

Has anyone heard of Digital Radio Mondaile plus (DRM+) another format again, suppose to work well in VHF Band 1, that's all I know about it. The lower end of this DRM LW MW SW only suited to continents, never take off in Europe.

Sam Russell

The Cush wrote: »

What would be the cost of upgrading these transmitters for VHF broadcasting, RTÉ are already €50m+ in debt with further borrowing required for clearing the 700MHz band over the next 4 years. Who would pay for the carriage and transmission of these local based community channels?

What incentive would there be for anyone to install a second larger VHF aerial for the reception of a few local channels? Been there, done that, larger VHF aerial with VHF/UHF mast combiner, don't particularly want that again.

The future for local channels will be IPTV in my opinion and Saorview Connect, combined with the rollout of FTTH/NBP, will be the first step in this direction.

I think that DAB or DAB+ (we already have RTE trialling both formats) is not going anywhere. If band III is not for DAB what can it be used for?

What I am thinking of would be closer to pirate TV - a bit like deflectors meets IrishTV.

Probably could only run by enthusiastic volunteers - not sure there are many left.

SimonMaher

former total wrote: »

But if the existing commercial operators don't want it, who is going to make the initial investment and then run the stations? And how would they recoup their money?

There simply isn't enough advertising money out there to support two rival platforms, especially since streaming and internet radio are taking bigger chunks out of the broadcast audience year by year.

I'll say once again for those at the back - DAB and FM will never be and should never be "rival" platforms. DAB has the potential to be a complimentary platform to FM. Advertising cake is changing in shape and flavour anyway, the simpler days of 30 second spots and a sponsored breakfast show are fading. Listeners and money will follow the content, regardless of platform. We as broadcasters care about platforms, listeners don't. Nor should they by the way!

If the DAB MUX there and one commercial operator jumps on (and they would!) then the others will follow. The industry is protectionist by nature - if a commercial DAB Mux is launched then the Commercial stations will feel forced to be on it. Ask them!

Simon

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

What I am thinking of would be closer to pirate TV - a bit like deflectors meets IrishTV.

Probably could only run by enthusiastic volunteers - not sure there are many left.

Enthusiastic volunteers rolling out a VHF network on RTÉ main transmitters will require a lot of hard cash, maybe a wealthy benefactor? Can't see it happening though, all the channels that people want are already available via terrestrial, satellite or internet. Can't see an incentive for people to erect another aerial. I've seen the odd VHF aerial installed in an attic and it does take up a lot of space compared to a compact UHF contract aerial.

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that DAB or DAB+ (we already have RTE trialling both formats) is not going anywhere. If band III is not for DAB what can it be used for?

It's harmonised for digital radio and TV in Europe so it won't be reallocated for anything else as there is a slow but steady rollout of digital radio around Europe if not here. Also countries like Sweden, Finland, Italy use their VHF DTT allocation as demand exceeds UHF capacity so any alternative use cannot interfere with these primary allocations in the band.

former total

SimonMaher wrote: »

I'll say once again for those at the back - DAB and FM will never be and should never be "rival" platforms. DAB has the potential to be a complimentary platform to FM. Advertising cake is changing in shape and flavour anyway, the simpler days of 30 second spots and a sponsored breakfast show are fading. Listeners and money will follow the content, regardless of platform. We as broadcasters care about platforms, listeners don't. Nor should they by the way!

If the DAB MUX there and one commercial operator jumps on (and they would!) then the others will follow. The industry is protectionist by nature - if a commercial DAB Mux is launched then the Commercial stations will feel forced to be on it. Ask them!

Simon

Whether it's a "rival" or "complimentary" platform, the problem remains the same; it will draw audiences from the same pool of listeners and advertising revenue from the same pile of cash. So where does the return on investment come from?

You're right that listeners don't care about platforms. But for DAB to take off you need to convince them that they need this new platform in their lives, that it gives them something FM, Spotify and TuneIn do not, and that they should fork out €50 - 100 for the privilege. Is that realistic?

Commercial reality will keep DAB where it is now. Unless FM is switched off or hardware manufacturers start including it as standard (at lower prices), then it's going the way of Betamax and MiniDisc.

SimonMaher

former total wrote: »

Whether it's a "rival" or "complimentary" platform, the problem remains the same; it will draw audiences from the same pool of listeners and advertising revenue from the same pile of cash. So where does the return on investment come from?

You're right that listeners don't care about platforms. But for DAB to take off you need to convince them that they need this new platform in their lives, that it gives them something FM, Spotify and TuneIn do not, and that they should fork out €50 - 100 for the privilege. Is that realistic?

Commercial reality will keep DAB where it is now. Unless FM is switched off or hardware manufacturers start including it as standard (at lower prices), then it's going the way of Betamax and MiniDisc.

The "same pool of cash" argument is almost quaint at this stage! Up there with the "there's too many radio stations" argument. While Radio has sat around hoping that the world doesn't overtake it, digital spend has increased massively while Radio spend is slowly dwindling. There is plenty of advertisers euro out there for anyone who can deliver content and ears through whatever method. Far more budget available now from advertisers than previously. Take a look at adpsend figures for 2015. More cash, spent differently.

Consumers have no hesitation in shelling out cash for something they feel matches their lifestyle so whether that be a couple of hundred quid on a phone, 120 a year on Spotify or 50 quid for a Digital radio. They won't care - they will go where the content is. Why do people in the UK shell out cash to buy DAB radios to listen to 6Music rather than the excellent Spotify Alt playlists? Content is king and so it should be.

Once again it comes back to the what's the harm in trying question. What are we afraid of?

Simon

former total

SimonMaher wrote: »

The "same pool of cash" argument is almost quaint at this stage! Up there with the "there's too many radio stations" argument. While Radio has sat around hoping that the world doesn't overtake it, digital spend has increased massively while Radio spend is slowly dwindling. There is plenty of advertisers euro out there for anyone who can deliver content and ears through whatever method. Far more budget available now from advertisers than previously. Take a look at adpsend figures for 2015. More cash, spent differently.

Consumers have no hesitation in shelling out cash for something they feel matches their lifestyle so whether that be a couple of hundred quid on a phone, 120 a year on Spotify or 50 quid for a Digital radio. They won't care - they will go where the content is. Why do people in the UK shell out cash to buy DAB radios to listen to 6Music rather than the excellent Spotify Alt playlists? Content is king and so it should be.

Once again it comes back to the what's the harm in trying question. What are we afraid of?

Simon

The fear is of investing money into a platform that doesn't take off and losing said money. Someone has to pony up the cash to make this happen.

I admire your optimism but someone has to take a big leap here. Someone has to invest a lot of money into a format that most of its audience cannot yet receive and the existence of which is unknown to most.

That someone has to then hope that the general public flock to this new format in sufficient numbers to bring in the advertising money. As long as a DAB radio costs €50 for a terrible spec receiver and north of €80 for anything vaguely attractive, that's a hard sell and would require absolutely fantastic content. And as long as people still have to switch back to FM in their car or on their phone, how do you build loyalty to the new platform? And do you mention the inferior sound quality to potential customers, or just hope no-one notices?

And where does the content come from? Who is going to set up these new stations? You either import foreign stations (talksport etc) or you go the RTE route of low-cost playlist stations. Neither is going to have people deserting FM in droves. Otherwise you simply duplicate what is on FM - so what is the selling point?

New advertising spend is of course possible but ONLY if you're delivering new audiences. If DAB simply cannibalises the existing FM audience, then it will also cannibalise the FM money. So what's the incentive for the existing players?

So it's a vicious circle of no audience - no investment - no content; you need someone to take a huge gamble to break that circle. With a population as small as ours and the ever-increasing popularity of smartphone apps for radio and streaming, even the best-case return would be tiny. I can't see it happening.

The UK is not a valid comparison because the BBC had the scale and resources to make it a viable proposition from day one. There was also an existing network of national commercial broadcasters ready to jump on board. England has a population and population density that makes broadcast media a lot more attractive and make local/regional services viable; even so, there are still large swathes of the UK which have no DAB coverage and even more which do not receive the full range of services.

Until DAB becomes ubiquitous in all radios in the way FM now is, or until there is a decision to shut down the FM network, we're unlikely to see any change.

SimonMaher

former total wrote: »

The fear is of investing money into a platform that doesn't take off and losing said money. Someone has to pony up the cash to make this happen.

I admire your optimism but someone has to take a big leap here. Someone has to invest a lot of money into a format that most of its audience cannot yet receive and the existence of which is unknown to most.

That someone has to then hope that the general public flock to this new format in sufficient numbers to bring in the advertising money. As long as a DAB radio costs €50 for a terrible spec receiver and north of €80 for anything vaguely attractive, that's a hard sell and would require absolutely fantastic content. And as long as people still have to switch back to FM in their car or on their phone, how do you build loyalty to the new platform? And do you mention the inferior sound quality to potential customers, or just hope no-one notices?

And where does the content come from? Who is going to set up these new stations? You either import foreign stations (talksport etc) or you go the RTE route of low-cost playlist stations. Neither is going to have people deserting FM in droves. Otherwise you simply duplicate what is on FM - so what is the selling point?

New advertising spend is of course possible but ONLY if you're delivering new audiences. If DAB simply cannibalises the existing FM audience, then it will also cannibalise the FM money. So what's the incentive for the existing players?

So it's a vicious circle of no audience - no investment - no content; you need someone to take a huge gamble to break that circle. With a population as small as ours and the ever-increasing popularity of smartphone apps for radio and streaming, even the best-case return would be tiny. I can't see it happening.

The UK is not a valid comparison because the BBC had the scale and resources to make it a viable proposition from day one. There was also an existing network of national commercial broadcasters ready to jump on board. England has a population and population density that makes broadcast media a lot more attractive and make local/regional services viable; even so, there are still large swathes of the UK which have no DAB coverage and even more which do not receive the full range of services.

Until DAB becomes ubiquitous in all radios in the way FM now is, or until there is a decision to shut down the FM network, we're unlikely to see any change.

In fairness, that's a good detailed post but avoids the question completely!

What is the harm in advertising a MUX licence and seeing what happens? What are we afraid of?

If there is no interest from an MUX operator then the MUX won't happen. If there are broadcasters who feel they have no content that will get people to listen then the MUX won't get customers. If the content isn't good enough, then nobody will listen.

As for cannibalising FM audiences then that presumes that DAB does take off but if it did then it would force existing operators to up their game, provide extra content etc to protect their audiences and revenue. Tell me again how that's a bad thing?

It's almost as if we are protecting something....what's that called again?

Two quick nerd tech points: The "inferiority" of DAB quality compared to FM is massively overstated. Most radio listening is still done in-home on kitchen radios, clock radios and the like where no non-geeks would ever notice the difference. Won't live or die based on audio quality, average Joe punter doesn't care.

The BBC not being a valid comparison doesn't hold water either. Content is content and the fact that a large group of people have bought receivers for a particular service surely proves that listeners follow content no?

Decent debate this!

Simon

The Spare Bowler

Last week my wife and I were on holiday in Fanad in north Donegal. We only had RTE radio stations and Today FM, there is a transmitter in fanad with Saorview and FM radio, but no Newstalk. When near the border we had BBC DAB and a very wide choice of stations. On our drive home, from Monaghan to Dublin we were able to listen to RTE Gold all the way back to Dublin the signal was excellent all the way back in the car. The mobile 3g and 4g service in Donegal is very patchy and in many areas there was no signal at all. If all 2rn transmitters were DAB enabled we could listen to RTE Gold all the time, and then maybe Newstalk would join the service.

marno21

The Spare Bowler wrote: »

Last week my wife and I were on holiday in Fanad in north Donegal. We only had RTE radio stations and Today FM, there is a transmitter in fanad with Saorview and FM radio, but no Newstalk. When near the border we had BBC DAB and a very wide choice of stations. On our drive home, from Monaghan to Dublin we were able to listen to RTE Gold all the way back to Dublin the signal was excellent all the way back in the car. The mobile 3g and 4g service in Donegal is very patchy and in many areas there was no signal at all. If all 2rn transmitters were DAB enabled we could listen to RTE Gold all the time, and then maybe Newstalk would join the service.

If all 2RN transmitters were FM enabled, it would be a good start.

No point in broadcasting DAB in parts of Donegal with good FM coverage when there are parts of Donegal with very poor FM coverage.

former total

SimonMaher wrote: »

In fairness, that's a good detailed post but avoids the question completely!

What is the harm in advertising a MUX licence and seeing what happens? What are we afraid of?

If there is no interest from an MUX operator then the MUX won't happen. If there are broadcasters who feel they have no content that will get people to listen then the MUX won't get customers. If the content isn't good enough, then nobody will listen.

I totally agree- but the question is, to whom do you licence the MUX?

There's no question of an auction, the right to operate it will have to be given away for free, but then how do you ensure that whoever runs it will allow access to a range of commercial operators without charging through the nose? Say for example, UTV take it on - how do you ensure they will allow competing stations access?

SimonMaher wrote: »

As for cannibalising FM audiences then that presumes that DAB does take off but if it did then it would force existing operators to up their game, provide extra content etc to protect their audiences and revenue. Tell me again how that's a bad thing?

It's not a bad thing at all, but it is a genuine reason why DAB hasn't taken off here.

SimonMaher wrote: »

It's almost as if we are protecting something....what's that called again?

Well, imagine if you were a local radio station in Ireland. You've obtained your licence on the back of a certain business plan, based on estimates of listenership, ad revenue, market share etc... and then suddenly a whole slew of new competitors arrives overnight, most of whom wouldn't be subject to the same regulation as your station. Is that fair on the local station?

SimonMaher wrote: »

Two quick nerd tech points: The "inferiority" of DAB quality compared to FM is massively overstated. Most radio listening is still done in-home on kitchen radios, clock radios and the like where no non-geeks would ever notice the difference. Won't live or die based on audio quality, average Joe punter doesn't care.

Yes, but when you can get an FM clock radio for a tenner and the DAB equivalent costs five times that, how does the guy in Power City sell that to the great unwashed? Moving from VHS to DVD, tapes to CDs, from standard def TV to HD, the difference was massive so you could persuade people to part with their cash. That's not the case here.

If sound quality is no better, then it has to be on DAB content, which brings us to...

SimonMaher wrote: »

The BBC not being a valid comparison doesn't hold water either. Content is content and the fact that a large group of people have bought receivers for a particular service surely proves that listeners follow content no?

But this goes back to my earlier point about the vicious circle. BBC had the wherewithal to provide good content and lots of it from day one, so there was a reason for the public to buy DAB radios, and the increasing ownership and audience gave commercial stations the confidence to get on board, so it becomes a more attractive prospect for the public, so more people buy receivers...

We don't have that in Ireland. RTE Gold and 2XM just aren't going to swing it.

SimonMaher wrote: »

Decent debate this!

Simon

Indeed.

I genuinely think the regulators want to get this up and running. It doesn't look good for them that the rest of Europe is racing ahead with DAB and we're still trying to get LW shut down, never mind FM... but they have to get it right and I don't see any easy answer in it. I think if there was a genuine will among the commercial broadcasters, then a way would be found to do it, but I don't think there is one.

Mickey Mike

For the most part Irish people are happy with FM, we want it to stay, its safe in the short and medium term. But going into the future after 2020 you will probably see Europe giving us an elbow into the side 'Hey lads come on we're all gone digital here, whats going on in Ireland (or the lack of it). There's always changes I'm afraid, it could be Europe that will decide in the long term.

The Cush

former total wrote: »

but the question is, to whom do you licence the MUX?

There's no question of an auction, the right to operate it will have to be given away for free, but then how do you ensure that whoever runs it will allow access to a range of commercial operators without charging through the nose? Say for example, UTV take it on - how do you ensure they will allow competing stations access?

In these cases the mux licence(s) would be advertised and awarded based on a "beauty contest" format, based on the business plan, content planned, financial backing etc., similar to the planned commercial DTT muxes a few years ago. The BAI would mandate a certain amount of capacity be reserved for the national commercial broadcasters and probably regional broadcasters such as Spin. Any new services would require the relevant BAI licence.

The mux licensee would have to reach agreement with either 2rn or any other operator to transmit the mux on the internationally coordinated frequencies.

The 2rn tariff for the existing national DAB mux is approx. €250k for a limited number of sites.

former total

The Cush wrote: »

In these cases the mux licence(s) would be advertised and awarded based on a "beauty contest" format, based on the business plan, content planned, financial backing etc., similar to the planned commercial DTT muxes a few years ago. The BAI would mandate a certain amount of capacity be reserved for the national commercial broadcasters and probably regional broadcasters such as Spin. Any new services would require the relevant BAI licence.

The mux licensee would have to reach agreement with either 2rn or any other operator to transmit the mux on the internationally coordinated frequencies.

The 2rn tariff for the existing national DAB mux is approx. €250k for a limited number of sites.

Yes, that's the "how", but my question is "who" - a beauty contest implies multiple interested parties with differing propositions, but my concern is that they will struggle to get even one realistic offer.

I think the most likely outcome long term is that RTE end up managing it and sub-letting space on the mux, much like the DTT situation.

SimonMaher

former total wrote: »

I totally agree- but the question is, to whom do you licence the MUX?

There's no question of an auction, the right to operate it will have to be given away for free, but then how do you ensure that whoever runs it will allow access to a range of commercial operators without charging through the nose? Say for example, UTV take it on - how do you ensure they will allow competing stations access?



It's not a bad thing at all, but it is a genuine reason why DAB hasn't taken off here.


Well, imagine if you were a local radio station in Ireland. You've obtained your licence on the back of a certain business plan, based on estimates of listenership, ad revenue, market share etc... and then suddenly a whole slew of new competitors arrives overnight, most of whom wouldn't be subject to the same regulation as your station. Is that fair on the local station?



Yes, but when you can get an FM clock radio for a tenner and the DAB equivalent costs five times that, how does the guy in Power City sell that to the great unwashed? Moving from VHS to DVD, tapes to CDs, from standard def TV to HD, the difference was massive so you could persuade people to part with their cash. That's not the case here.

If sound quality is no better, then it has to be on DAB content, which brings us to...



But this goes back to my earlier point about the vicious circle. BBC had the wherewithal to provide good content and lots of it from day one, so there was a reason for the public to buy DAB radios, and the increasing ownership and audience gave commercial stations the confidence to get on board, so it becomes a more attractive prospect for the public, so more people buy receivers...

We don't have that in Ireland. RTE Gold and 2XM just aren't going to swing it.



Indeed.

I genuinely think the regulators want to get this up and running. It doesn't look good for them that the rest of Europe is racing ahead with DAB and we're still trying to get LW shut down, never mind FM... but they have to get it right and I don't see any easy answer in it. I think if there was a genuine will among the commercial broadcasters, then a way would be found to do it, but I don't think there is one.

I don't think for a second that the regulators want to get this up and running. I reckon they would be delighted if it just went away and we never spoke about it again! If they wanted it up and running, they would have at least run a process to gauge interest from potential MUX operators. But here we are, August 2016 and nothing. Why not?

Multiquote is not my strong suit, so I'll just answer random bits as I see them! The argument about existing stations having business plans, revenue projections and all that stuff is the gospel of protectionism. It just wouldn't be "fair" if other competitors came in with different business models and regulations. True, it wouldn't be fair, but surely that's just business? I've worked in all sorts of areas of business - Media, Retail, Quality Assurance, Publishing and more. Only in radio do we seem to have the idea that we can have barriers to entry on the basis that it's not fair!

The idea that 2RN might manage the MUX is an interesting one. Whoever manages it (post beauty-contest application process) will be operating under contract to the BAI and will have a set of access rules built into that contract so I don't see access as being an issue. Also, we don't have to start with high-cost countrywide MUXes given that DAB is compimentary rather than a replacement. Start with Dublin, take it from there.

Run the contest and we'll get the answers to all the questions we have been debating. But the refusal to run the contest for a long number of years now just raises more questions. You know, it's just not fair

Simon

The Cush

former total wrote: »

I think the most likely outcome long term is that RTE end up managing it and sub-letting space on the mux, much like the DTT situation.

That would be my thinking too, RTÉ for the multiplexing/2rn for transmission, as with Saorview. But would other groups be interested such a Communicorp (Today FM/Newstalk/etc.), Wireless Group (UTV Media/ Rupert Murdoch's News Corp), the Wireless Group co-own the second commercial digital radio mux in the UK. A consortia of broadcasters/interested parties might be another option.

The Cush

SimonMaher wrote: »

Run the contest and we'll get the answers to all the questions we have been debating. But the refusal to run the contest for a long number of years now just raises more questions. You know, it's just not fair

I remember the issue of digital radio being raised 6-7 years ago but ruled out because everyone at the time was focusing on the transition from analogue to digital TV and was to be looked at post ASO. Almost 4 years post ASO and we're still waiting for a decision.

Mickey Mike

The Cush wrote: »

I remember the issue of digital radio being raised 6-7 years ago but ruled out because everyone at the time was focusing on the transition from analogue to digital TV and was to be looked at post ASO. Almost 4 years post ASO and we're still waiting for a decision.

Waiting you'll be

fernrock

Will we ever get RTE Radio here in west Clare.

No Digital,VHF useless, Internet (for Radio) where internet is available is very expensive.
RTE latest ads are telling us, we are paying a licence for a "national" radio service. Some joke .

RTE Radio in West Clare is in the same category as the "National Symphony orchestra " (love your orchestra etc.), which dosen't move outside the M50.

marno21

fernrock wrote: »

Will we ever get RTE Radio here in west Clare.

No Digital,VHF useless, Internet (for Radio) where internet is available is very expensive.
RTE latest ads are telling us, we are paying a licence for a "national" radio service. Some joke .

RTE Radio in West Clare is in the same category as the "National Symphony orchestra " (love your orchestra etc.), which dosen't move outside the M50.

What part of West Clare? West Clare is a broad area.

fernrock

Loop Head peninsula

marno21

fernrock wrote: »

Loop Head peninsula

What is coverage of RTE like on 89.2/91.4/93.6/98.7, Today FM on 101.0 & Radio Kerry on 97.6?

These should all be clear on Loop Head peninsula, they come from a transmitter approximately 2/3km from Ballybunion (Cnoc an Oir)

You may also get Spin on 102.5 and Newstalk on 107.2 if Kerry Head isn't in the way.

Mickey Mike

fernrock wrote: »

Loop Head peninsula

Living in the north kerry area myself and drove around Loop Head with good reception from cnoc an oir. so don't really understand that one, check your aerial.

Capt'n Midnight

fernrock wrote: »

Will we ever get RTE Radio here in west Clare.

No Digital,VHF useless, Internet (for Radio) where internet is available is very expensive.
RTE latest ads are telling us, we are paying a licence for a "national" radio service. Some joke .

The licence is to posses a broadcast television receiver. They dropped the requirement for radio a while back. Also the licence fee is split according to how much Irish content is produced which is the only reason why TV3 don't get anything.

You can get high quality radio on Saorsat and Astra 2E

DAB won't help you. It'll take resources away from FM which provides greater coverage from the transmitter.


The history of analog TV coverage where TV3 just didn't bother with the smaller transmitters and where only RTE pay for HD coverage on Saorview shows that if you expect national coverage by every station you are ignoring the reality of the situation. Commercial stations will concentrate on the population centres and it's not that likely you'll get new channels down there.

fernrock

Mickie Mike wrote: »

Living in the north kerry area myself and drove around Loop Head with good reception from cnoc an oir. so don't really understand that one, check your aerial.

I have no problem in car but, neither I or my neighbours have proper radio reception indoors.

rogue-entity

former total wrote: »

The fear is of investing money into a platform that doesn't take off and losing said money. Someone has to pony up the cash to make this happen.

That would be the case if potential operators expect to pay hundreds of thousands of euro for every transmitter they setup on the network, worse if they feel this should be operated as a national network.

Technology has evolved and you can setup a multiplex for less than the price of your first car. I would forsee the largest cost being the fees charged by Comreg.

I don't believe the bottleneck is a lack of willing entrants, the authorities simply will not issue a licence for a few MHz of unused VHF.

former total wrote: »

And where does the content come from? Who is going to set up these new stations? You either import foreign stations (talksport etc) or you go the RTE route of low-cost playlist stations. Neither is going to have people deserting FM in droves. Otherwise you simply duplicate what is on FM - so what is the selling point?

The selling point would have been choice, sure Dublin might be fine with it's dozen and more FM stations, but the majority of the country has one local, one semi-local and a bunch of wide-band national stations so the rest of us are crying out for content.

Since the authorities are putting their fingers into their ears and refusing to licence stations in these areas the technically savvy are turning to Internet radio and listening to foreign providers anyway. If DAB had been free to get off the ground it would have benefited those like myself but wouldn't have been in the interest of incumbent local radio stations who feel they have a right to a monopoly in their area.

SimonMaher wrote: »

What is the harm in advertising a MUX licence and seeing what happens? What are we afraid of?

I think we are afraid it would take off and some stations would go to the wall, that they wouldn't be able to compete with the larger operations and in the long term we'd end up in a situation like the UK or the US. A bit like KCLR* but on a national scale.

* When the franchise area was redone, CLR got the combined Kilkenny/Carlow licence and Radio Kilkenny ceased broadcasting.

former total wrote: »

I totally agree- but the question is, to whom do you licence the MUX?

Anyone who wants to set one up, it's unused spectrum right now, nobody else apart from two companies running trials in the South East and Cork/Dublin respectively have shown interest in it. They're potential service providers not broadcasters but Comreg doesn't seem interested in issuing a licence for reasons known only to themselves.

former total wrote: »

...and then suddenly a whole slew of new competitors arrives overnight, most of whom wouldn't be subject to the same regulation as your station. Is that fair on the local station?

Is it fair to listeners in the South East, North West and Midlands who are deprived of choice simply because the powers that be are uninterested in licensing additional radio stations to fill a niche?
Streaming and Apps on smartphones don't yet seem to register as a threat to incumbents perhaps.

The Cush wrote: »

The 2rn tariff for the existing national DAB mux is approx. €250k for a limited number of sites.

Which is probably why nobody wants to hop on it and only the misguided few have bothered to simulcast on the DTT mux as it is (seriously, how many would bother listening to radio through the TV?)

SimonMaher wrote: »

I don't think for a second that the regulators want to get this up and running. I reckon they would be delighted if it just went away and we never spoke about it again! If they wanted it up and running, they would have at least run a process to gauge interest from potential MUX operators.

They did, a trial was run in the earlier days but it fizzled out and that equipment was re-used to extend RTE to Cork and Limerick.

SimonMaher wrote: »

The idea that 2RN might manage the MUX is an interesting one.

And one that I would be opposed to, a modest investment could set something up to cover a city or a county but having to pay a "tax" to 2RN for the privilege and you'd eliminate any but the most well-funded broadcasting outfits from participating on the platform.

I'd turn it on it's head, if the large broadcasters have no interest and the current FM broadcasters are happy where they are, then throw the spectrum open to anybody else who might want to play with it. The only rule that needs to be in place is that stations broadcasting must be licensed through the BAI and thus regulated.[/QUOTE]