Does Dublin lose out on project spending to rural areas?

Bray Head

What share of users of the New Ross bypass will be HGVs heading to Rosslare from the Cork area? My guess would be that it is very small.

This is not an argument against building it btw. It is just invariably the case that local interests make the case for road upgrades on the basis that they will handle inter-city traffic while in reality the bulk of the journeys are local.

I see a reasonable case for an M20. More on the basis that it handles a lot of local and commuter traffic rather than on the grounds of linking Cork and Limerick.

Inter-urban and long-distance driving has a low natural limit in Ireland due to our position as an island off another island off a continent.

rebs23

I honestly think Dublin has been well served by infrastructural spending on a relative basis over the last 20 years.
However there is a growing sense in Cork that we are losing out significantly to other areas of the country when it comes to infrastructural investment. Over the last 10 years the population has increased by 61,000 people and now stands at 543,000, a growing economy yet little investment in public infrastructure over that period of time.
New Ross By Pass, Enniscorthy, Gort to Tuam, N11, Newlands Cross, Luas Cross City, etc yet nothing on that scale in Cork. Why? or maybe every region in Ireland thinks they are "losing out". (Our good old persecution complex)
It would be really interesting if there is some analysis available of public infrastructural investment on a region by region basis per head of population. Anyone know of any such reports?

Bray Head

I don't know Cork that well.

My feeling is that city plus environs did reasonably well by comparison to other places in the late 90s and early 2000s, but has done less well since.

rebs23

Bray Head wrote: »

I don't know Cork that well.

My feeling is that city plus environs did reasonably well by comparison to other places in the late 90s and early 2000s, but has done less well since.

Thats probably a fair assessment. We desperately need 2 critical projects to proceed urgently (Dunkettle Interchange & N28) as capacity issues are holding up other projects.

theskeptic

rebs23 wrote: »

I honestly think Dublin has been well served by infrastructural spending on a relative basis over the last 20 years.
However there is a growing sense in Cork that we are losing out significantly to other areas of the country when it comes to infrastructural investment. Over the last 10 years the population has increased by 61,000 people and now stands at 543,000, a growing economy yet little investment in public infrastructure over that period of time.
New Ross By Pass, Enniscorthy, Gort to Tuam, N11, Newlands Cross, Luas Cross City, etc yet nothing on that scale in Cork. Why? or maybe every region in Ireland thinks they are "losing out". (Our good old persecution complex)
It would be really interesting if there is some analysis available of public infrastructural investment on a region by region basis per head of population. Anyone know of any such reports?

I don't begrudge any development in Cork but I find that people tend to interchange the Cork City and Cork County population figures quite freely. If comparing Cork County population then it should probably be compared with the total population of (Dublin + Meath + Kildare + Wicklow) which is almost as big an area as Cork County but with a pop. of 1,900,000+

Are there any agreed standards for looking at "an urban region". Similar issues arise with Drogheda spanning Louth and Meath and Limerick city spilling into Clare.

hans aus dtschl

theskeptic wrote: »

I don't begrudge any development in Cork but I find that people tend to interchange the Cork City and Cork County population figures quite freely. If comparing Cork County population then it should probably be compared with the total population of (Dublin + Meath + Kildare + Wicklow) which is almost as big an area as Cork County but with a pop. of 1,900,000+

Are there any agreed standards for looking at "an urban region". Similar issues arise with Drogheda spanning Louth and Meath and Limerick city spilling into Clare.

The likes of Douglas, Glanmire, Ballincollig are highly built up but not officially in the City. This is the source of the problem. It's a ridiculous ongoing dispute between City and County councils.

Wiki says: the term is loosely defined but has been taken by authorities to include the city of Cork, its suburbs and the towns of Ballincollig, Blarney, Carrigaline, Carrigtwohill, Cobh, Crosshaven, Glanmire, Glounthaune, Midleton, Passage West and Ringaskiddy.
This comes to about 300k. If you know the area, this is broadly similar to Limerick/Drogheda/Waterford, and not as similar to Dublin/Kildare/Meath. It doesn't include Mallow/Macroom/Bandon/Fermoy etc. I think the county is something like 540k

snotboogie

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

theskeptic wrote: »

I don't begrudge any development in Cork but I find that people tend to interchange the Cork City and Cork County population figures quite freely. If comparing Cork County population then it should probably be compared with the total population of (Dublin + Meath + Kildare + Wicklow) which is almost as big an area as Cork County but with a pop. of 1,900,000+

Are there any agreed standards for looking at "an urban region". Similar issues arise with Drogheda spanning Louth and Meath and Limerick city spilling into Clare.

The likes of Douglas, Glanmire, Ballincollig are highly built up but not officially in the City. This is the source of the problem. It's a ridiculous ongoing dispute between City and County councils.

Wiki says: the term is loosely defined but has been taken by authorities to include the city of Cork, its suburbs and the towns of Ballincollig, Blarney, Carrigaline, Carrigtwohill, Cobh, Crosshaven, Glanmire, Glounthaune, Midleton, Passage West and Ringaskiddy.
This comes to about 300k. If you know the area, this is broadly similar to Limerick/Drogheda/Waterford, and not as similar to Dublin/Kildare/Meath. It doesn't include Mallow/Macroom/Bandon/Fermoy etc. I think the county is something like 540k

Cork is a good bit more spread out than the other cities in the country but the current method of counting the likes of Ballincollig, Carrigaline, Douglas and Glanmire as country towns rather than suburbs is ridiculous.

D.L.R.

rebs23 wrote: »

Thats probably a fair assessment. We desperately need 2 critical projects to proceed urgently (Dunkettle Interchange & N28) as capacity issues are holding up other projects.

What I just don't get is why Dunkettle has been redesigned without a freeflow from the M8 to the Lower Glanmire Rd. Where are they expecting city centre bound M8 traffic to go?

hans aus dtschl

D.L.R. wrote: »

What I just don't get is why Dunkettle has been redesigned without a freeflow from the M8 to the Lower Glanmire Rd. Where are they expecting city centre bound M8 traffic to go?

A: Through the Glanmire rat-run.

Also worth mentioning the lack of proper pedestrian or cyclist route in this design. They expect them to cross the slip-road! lol

marno21

The most important project on the N25 is the Carrigtwohill - Youghal motorway/HQDC. Part A to fix up the low quality DC between J4 and the Lake Star Roundabout or what ever it's called, and part two to dual from said roundabout to the end of the Youghal bypass, bypassing Castlemartyr & Killeagh on the way.

The M20 will be hugely beneficial to Cork - Limerick traffic. People are put off driving Cork - Limerick because it's not really worth it driving at 55km/h between cities, and there's also rat running via the R513/M8 and other routes. Mark my words, when the M20 is built Cork - Limerick traffic will grow hugely.

D.L.R. wrote: »

What I just don't get is why Dunkettle has been redesigned without a freeflow from the M8 to the Lower Glanmire Rd. Where are they expecting city centre bound M8 traffic to go?

Through the tunnel and in via the N27 South City Link.

D.L.R.

marno21 wrote: »

Through the tunnel and in via the N27 South City Link.

That seems very messy.

Grandeeod

D.L.R. wrote: »

That seems very messy.

Not messy at all. Very direct and on good roads.

hans aus dtschl

Grandeeod wrote: »

Not messy at all. Very direct and on good roads.

Except if you live on the northside of the city. In which case I expect many will simply go through Glanmire and Mayfield or Glanmire and Tivoli. Regressive.

marno21

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Except if you live on the northside of the city. In which case I expect many will simply go through Glanmire and Mayfield or Glanmire and Tivoli. Regressive.

Or just use the N8 Lower Glanmire Rd and go through the roundabouts at Dunkettle? They're not closing it off

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

Or just use the N8 Lower Glanmire Rd and go through the roundabouts at Dunkettle? They're not closing it off

What you meant is that you will be able to join all the eastbound traffic and little island traffic, head east, go around a dumbell interchange, crossing over the N25, then begin your journey west again before you head north again.

You'll be able to go East and North, it's grand. I know what you might have wanted was West and South, but East and North will do you fine!

TBH, I'll be making this journey infrequently, but I know I'll be going through Glanmire when I do.

Watergrasshill or Fermoy to Mayfield for instance: no question. Ballyvolane? No question.

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

TII are not the issue here.

It's the government who refuse to provide funding for important projects and instead want more money invested in **** such as the Western Road Corridor and motorways in rural parts of Ireland that are the issue.

The NRA said that the M20 was their number 1 priority project in 2014. It has still not received funding, even for planning. Yet the N5 Dublin-Westport has had two schemes built during the current government, one to start in 2019 and the last piece to start soon after.

:pac: You were only complaining a few days ago that Killarney hasn't had its 2nd bypass yet.
Clearly you are okay with rural infrastructure as long as its only in your own backyard. Hypocrite comes to mind :rolleyes:.

I'm sure you were at the front of the protest against the dual carriageway bypass of Castleisland in Kerry, a road that when your on it you have to wonder if its actually open as there are no cars behind or infront of you as far as the eye can see. It could of served as a second runway for farranfore for all the use it gets.

You can't have your cake and eat it Marno. You can't complain about Dart Underground and still expect every bog road in kerry to be national standard. To then complain about arterial routes across the country been completed just because they are not in your region is just pathetic.

Also the M20 is actually part of the western road corridor, i.e the western road corridor goes from Cork - Derry. Or again does that only matter where you live Marno!! Maybe if we didn't have eejits like the Healy Raes holding governments to ransom for there own little projects in Kerry like the 2nd Tralee bypass for 100 Million then some of the other priorities might be completed by now.

marno21

Deleted User wrote: »

:pac: You were only complaining a few days ago that Killarney hasn't had its 2nd bypass yet.
Clearly you are okay with rural infrastructure as long as its only in your own backyard. Hypocrite comes to mind :rolleyes:.

I'm sure you were at the front of the protest against the dual carriageway bypass of Castleisland in Kerry, a road that when your on it you have to wonder if its actually open as there are no cars behind or infront of you as far as the eye can see. It could of served as a second runway for farranfore for all the use it gets.

You can't have your cake and eat it Marno. You can't complain about Dart Underground and still expect every bog road in kerry to be national standard. To then complain about arterial routes across the country been completed just because they are not in your region is just pathetic.

Also the M20 is actually part of the western road corridor, i.e the western road corridor goes from Cork - Derry. Or again does that only matter where you live Marno!! Maybe if we didn't have eejits like the Healy Raes holding governments to ransom for there own little projects in Kerry like the 2nd Tralee bypass for 100 Million then some of the other priorities might be completed by now.

I have moved this post to a more relevant area for discussion.

The AADT on the N5 Ballaghaderreen - Strokestown section is 5k AADT. There is very little commuter traffic on this road as it runs through rural Roscommon. There is no bottlenecks on this road. It's just a narrow road that Enda can't do 90-100km/h on.

The AADT on the Killarney northern relief road is 18k AADT, and 22k AADT on Fridays. That's more traffic than goes through Adare. It's also a tourist hub, a main ambulance route and is severely congested, not just at peak times, but during most of daylight hours during the summer. It needs resolving.

The N21 north of Castleisland carries 8,800 vehicles daily. The Castleisland bypass 3/4km south of that carries 7,500 vehcies daily. Effectively, 85% of vehicles on the N21 north of Casteisland use it. Is it still a waste?

I meant to say Western Rail Corridor. Apologies

marno21

marno21 wrote: »

I have moved this post to a more relevant area for discussion.

The AADT on the N5 Ballaghaderreen - Strokestown section is 5k AADT. There is very little commuter traffic on this road as it runs through rural Roscommon. There is no bottlenecks on this road. It's just a narrow road that Enda can't do 90-100km/h on.

No its not a commuter road but it is a link road for the west of Ireland to Dublin and the ports, no different than providing a bridge over a river for those needing to cross the Shannon. If you knew the local situation in North Galway Mayo Sligo And Roscommon you would know that these overdue improvements are mainly coming due to business pressure.

Multiple multinational companies threatened to relocate to the east or further afield due to the shocking state of the N5. Products produced in the west were been damaged excessively simply due to the transit conditions and times on the N5 or N17.

Also you can barely turn a lorry in Ballaghadereen. Traffic has to be stopped coming one way for an articulated lorry to get through the town.

You may not want to inconvenience some tourists in Killlarney in the summertime. But without a decent N5 connection that people rely on for jobs and connectivity you may as well consider a mass deportation from the region to Dublin.

I know the risk it was putting on future expansions and it does affect business decisions. If you think Irelands reputation is damage for those visiting Dublin you definitely do not want to hear what visiting executives say after they travel the N5. Most of them try to fly into Knock instead.

If you think Enda Kenny was doing the people of the west a favor you clearly don't know him. He would be the last person that would try and improve a road to the West or anything in the West for that matter. These necessary improvements are likely due to IDA pressure alone.

http://www.ricecollegewestport.ie/business/?p=144

marno21

Deleted User wrote: »

No its not a commuter road but it is a link road for the west of Ireland to Dublin and the ports, no different than providing a bridge over a river for those needing to cross the Shannon. If you knew the local situation in North Galway Mayo Sligo And Roscommon you would know that these overdue improvements are mainly coming due to business pressure.

Multiple multinational companies threatened to relocate to the east or further afield due to the shocking state of the N5. Products produced in the west were been damaged excessively simply due to the transit conditions and times on the N5 or N17.

Also you can barely turn a lorry in Ballaghadereen. Traffic has to be stopped coming one way for an articulated lorry to get through the town.

You may not want to inconvenience some tourists in Killlarney in the summertime. But without a decent N5 connection that people rely on for jobs and connectivity you may as well consider a mass deportation from the region to Dublin.

I know the risk it was putting on future expansions and it does affect business decisions. If you think Irelands reputation is damage for those visiting Dublin you definitely do not want to hear what visiting executives say after they travel the N5. Most of them try to fly into Knock instead.

If you think Enda Kenny was doing the people of the west a favor you clearly don't know him. He would be the last person that would try and improve a road to the West or anything in the West for that matter. These necessary improvements are likely due to IDA pressure alone.

http://www.ricecollegewestport.ie/business/?p=144

This is exactly the same situation as happening down in the south west due to the state of the N20, N21 and N22. It's the same everywhere.

Ballaghaderreen was bypassed in 2014. That corner is no longer an issue for through traffic on the N5.

I support upgrading the roads countrywide. The state that parts of the N4, N5, N6 (around Galway), N13-15, N17, N20, N21, N22, N23, N24 and N25 are in is a major factor as to why there is no investment in these parts of the country.

However, at present, the only National Primary Routes in planning are the N3, N4, N7 & N11 upgrades around Dublin, the N5 Ballaghaderreen-Scramoge & the N13/N14/N15 in Donegal.

Zero projects in the south west.

The tourist sector in Killarney creates a **** ton of jobs too. It's Allergen/Baxter/CocaCola providing jobs in the North West, different companies in the south west.

Bray Head

Would making location x in Co Mayo 10% faster to the east coast make much of a difference to investment decisions if you don't have the skillset in the area?

I know a little bit about what the IDA do. Some firms planning to locate in Ireland won't even look outside the canals never mind the M50!

They want a large pool of professionals with technical skills and this is simply never going to exist in Co Mayo.

People in many non-urban locations need to be realistic about what kind of industries will locate there. Tourism, back-office/call-centre type stuff, clerical parts of the public service. Road infrastructure is nice for people who live there but not essential for this kind of industry.

Bray Head

Bray Head wrote: »

Would making location x in Co Mayo 10% faster to the east coast make much of a difference to investment decisions if you don't have the skillset in the area?

I know a little bit about what the IDA do. Some firms planning to locate in Ireland won't even look outside the canals never mind the M50!

They want a large pool of professionals with technical skills and this is simply never going to exist in Co Mayo.

People in many non-urban locations need to be realistic about what kind of industries will locate there. Tourism, back-office/call-centre type stuff, clerical parts of the public service. Road infrastructure is nice for people who live there but not essential for this kind of industry.

The skillset is already there, some of these plants are the global centers of excellence due to the developed skillset and they already exist. The product was simply getting damaged in transit due to the terrible state of the N5. A fair bit has been done in the past 10 years with a few small bits left, mainly in Roscommon. Were not talking motorway or dual carriageways these are simply upgrades to single carriage roads.

Regarding skillset there has already been a generation of manufacturing in these plants to build the talent pool. You also underestimate the amount of people that want to get out of Dublin for the quieter life. I see more and more friends in there 20's and 30's wanting to get out of Dublin and come home, but the work is just not there. There is absolutely no problems filling any technical positions.

There is also no need for a large pools of professionals with technical skills. One of the factories employ over 1000 staff. There is no more than a dozen engineers in the factory. There are also other areas like validation, micro etc but again small numbers of technical staff.

The attraction for the companies is they can pay alot less than Dublin. There are plenty of general workers available, with most delighted to have the work. Because its where the worker resides people generally stay long term and are willing to upskill if required.


Its the exact type of companies the IDA should be driving outside of the Dublin area.

I can understand small niche manufacturing companies, software companies and finance/language skill companies needing to be based in Dublin, but the IDA is poor at sending other work to the regions.

murphaph

Don't blame the IDA. Companies want to set up in cities. This is true the world over. Don't know why you'd think it should be different in Ireland.

marno21

murphaph wrote: »

Don't blame the IDA. Companies want to set up in cities. This is true the world over. Don't know why you'd think it should be different in Ireland.

Yes cities like Cork & Limerick which have cattle tracks linking the cities themselves to local towns, no houses, severely congested approach roads, no effective public transport systems?

hans aus dtschl

marno21 wrote: »

Yes cities like Cork & Limerick which have cattle tracks linking the cities themselves to local towns, no houses, severely congested approach roads, no effective public transport systems?

That's my issue too.

We can talk all day about how the North West needs roads. It does, no question.

But our economy is based around 1. Dublin city 2. Cork city 3. Limerick city. These economic centres are effectively paying for the North West or South East's infrastructure. It will probably always be this way. What we're discussing here is the fact that some of the exact infrastructure that's missing from these economic centres, is getting put into the North West and South East, where the need isn't quite as great, from an economic perspective. That that amounts to political vanity projects.

Bray Head

Deleted User wrote: »

The skillset is already there, some of these plants are the global centers of excellence due to the developed skillset and they already exist. The product was simply getting damaged in transit due to the terrible state of the N5. A fair bit has been done in the past 10 years with a few small bits left, mainly in Roscommon. Were not talking motorway or dual carriageways these are simply upgrades to single carriage roads.
Regarding skillset there has already been a generation of manufacturing in these plants to build the talent pool. You also underestimate the amount of people that want to get out of Dublin for the quieter life. I see more and more friends in there 20's and 30's wanting to get out of Dublin and come home, but the work is just not there. There is absolutely no problems filling any technical positions.There is also no need for a large pools of professionals with technical skills. One of the factories employ over 1000 staff. There is no more than a dozen engineers in the factory. There are also other areas like validation, micro etc but again small numbers of technical staff. The attraction for the companies is they can pay alot less than Dublin. There are plenty of general workers available, with most delighted to have the work. Because its where the worker resides people generally stay long term and are willing to upskill if required.Its the exact type of companies the IDA should be driving outside of the Dublin area. I can understand small niche manufacturing companies, software companies and finance/language skill companies needing to be based in Dublin, but the IDA is poor at sending other work to the regions.

Since Ballaghaderreen has been bypassed you do not need to take the bad bit of the N5 to get to Dublin Port, you simply take the N61 through Roscommon. Once the spectacularly over-specced Gort-Tuam motorway is finished most of Mayo is only an hour's drive from a smooth carpet all the way to Dublin.

You also clearly misunderstand what the IDA does. It is not a central planning bureau with chunks of jobs to 'send' to various places. It provides assistance to multinationals looking to locate in Ireland to find a location best suited to their needs. This is usually (internally) in competition with other places in the world. So it makes sense for the IDA to push the best Irish location, or else the investment might not come to Ireland at all.

Finally, low-value added manufacturing is by now a lost cause in Ireland due to distance from markets and high wage levels. 40 years ago distance from a customer in Utrecht could be compensated for by low wages but those days are gone. There are plenty of Slovakias and Slovenias where 1500 a month in manufacturing is a decent wage and products are an overnight trip from big markets in France and Germany. Like I said, even if Mayo gets 10% quicker to Dublin, it only gets 2% closer to Utrecht.

marno21

Am I right in saying that there's also a heavily used freight rail link from Ballina to the rest of the network? (Rosslare in particular?)

tharlear

Don't blame the IDA. Companies want to set up in cities. This is true the world over. Don't know why you'd think it should be different in Ireland

.

Not sure why you think this, Yes large companies want to set up in "trendy" cities to attract young professionals, finance, marketing,software etc,
But in my experience travelling over the last 10 years, most of the plants I visit in Asia, Europe and the USA avoid big cities. They like small towns about 50 to 150km from the large cites with good air connectivity. The key to a small city getting investment is a motorway connection to airports and sea ports, cheap land, educate work force, stable work force.

(Small is relative, in China 1 to 2million is small, it the USA about 100K, education is also relative, depending on the industry.)

Of the people I know from rural Ireland who moved home over the last 15 years, none of them had a first preference of moving to Dublin. Those that went to Dublin did so because Dublin was "at least in Ireland". Most were married with Kids

Rural Ireland has relatively cheap land compare to Dublin, Rural Ireland on average has better education result, People want to be there, ie less turnover.

Each has its own benefits. Smart Industrial develop take advantage of both. That way Rural Ireland can pay more into the central government

Note, rural Irelands is not the greater Dublin area for the purposes of this post

purplepanda

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

That's my issue too.

We can talk all day about how the North West needs roads. It does, no question.

But our economy is based around 1. Dublin city 2. Cork city 3. Limerick city. These economic centres are effectively paying for the North West or South East's infrastructure. It will probably always be this way. What we're discussing here is the fact that some of the exact infrastructure that's missing from these economic centres, is getting put into the North West and South East, where the need isn't quite as great, from an economic perspective. That that amounts to political vanity projects.

That same SE region (WX WD KK CW TS) that has the same population density as the SW region (CK KY)? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South-East_Region,_Ireland

Or Wexford which has a bigger population than Mayo a county three times larger in size?

Comparing the SE region to the NW region is farcical as regards population density & economic activity.

Brian CivilEng

In my opinion one of the main reasons why rural Ireland seems to be losing population is that the days of single income families are long gone. When deciding whether or not to relocate for a job opportunity, you also have to consider the ease of your partner finding a job too. All the motorways and rail corridors in the world wont change the fact that the bigger the city, the more likely it is to find two jobs within commuting distance.

hans aus dtschl

purplepanda wrote: »

Comparing the SE region to the NW region is farcical as regards population density & economic activity.

I don't think anyone did tbh. I certainly didn't.

I compared both with the population centres of Dublin Cork and Limerick, which our economy is based around.

Wexford has a slightly larger population than Ballincollig, Dooradoyle or a fifth the size of Swords or Tallaght. It's a small town.

There's no comparison between the NW/SE and the bigger urban areas. That was the entire point people were making: that the need for infrastructure in the bigger urban areas far outweighs that in the NW/SE from an economics perspective. You might say Wexford needs infrastructure more than Mayo, that's fine. That basically sings in harmony with the rest of the arguments on here: the more densely populated areas with the higher concentration of employment probably need more of the infrastructural spend.