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Does Dublin lose out on project spending to rural areas?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    monument wrote: »
    Dublin city and suburbs has a population density around the same as Amsterdam -- a city with more than one metro line. You're following nonsensical myths which try to make out Dublin isn't yet sutable for metros or Dart underground etc. It very much so is sutable and saying otherwise just makes it clear you don't know much about the project or are guided by misinformation.

    And also, of course, around the same population density as Munich, which is generally considered to have one of the finest urban transport networks in the world, including underground and overground rail, trams and buses.

    Dublin is way behind cities like Amsterdam and Munich, and even what Shane Ross might conjure up in a wet dream about Dublin's transport is likely to be light years away from what the citizens of those cities already enjoy.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    monument wrote: »
    Yes, it is priorities. But, while I know you don't want to accept this, it's mainly not a choice between housing and Dublin's transport, it's a choice between Metro/Dart and other large scale transport projects spread across the country.

    It's not the Tuam project alone -- there's a string of over spec projects. A dual carriageway between Castlebar and Westport has to be prime example. Crazy it got past planning when a dual carriageway between Ballina and Castlebar was viewed to be overkill.

    Housing is a relatively new issue anyway, the overspend on motorway projects was going on in boom times when rail projects in Dublin were being left to last.

    And it's not the electorate in Dublin they are worried about at all -- they are afraid of the Dublin gets everything bandwagon. People in small towns complain about marginal traffic jams on what are relatively very short commutes when Dublin suffers far greater traffic congestion and longer commutes but the view in more rural areas is Dublin has good public transport. When there was flooding in the Midlands people called a regional road "our M50" with no sense of perspective of what a shutdown of the M50 has on the national economy.




    That's quite frankly more nonsense.

    Dublin city and suburbs has a population density around the same as Amsterdam -- a city with more than one metro line. You're following nonsensical myths which try to make out Dublin isn't yet sutable for metros or Dart underground etc. It very much so is sutable and saying otherwise just makes it clear you don't know much about the project or are guided by misinformation.

    A dual carraigeway between Castlebar and Westport - but get this - no dual carraigeway between Cork and Limerick, or around Galway or between Rathkeale and Adare (AADT 17k not including ratrunners).

    With a bit of luck we might get a Metro soon seeing as it's actually semi on the table. But we'll get a motorway between Enniscorthy and Gorey first.


  • Registered Users Posts: 962 ✭✭✭medoc


    The longer we procrastinate the more expensive the costs will get. And when you add in the potential loss of future FDI it makes it even more costly to the entire country. Development has to be spread around the country but it needs to be prioritised. I'm sure there are plenty of proposed bypasses etc that mean the world to local and regional economies around Ireland. But Dublin is the engine room of the economy rightly or wrongly. If it chokes the rest of the country stalls. Dublin metro and dart underground plus the M20 need to be next on the list. They will help generate the money for the smaller needed regional projects.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,228 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    marno21 wrote: »
    A dual carraigeway between Castlebar and Westport - but get this - no dual carraigeway between Cork and Limerick, or around Galway or between Rathkeale and Adare (AADT 17k not including ratrunners).

    With a bit of luck we might get a Metro soon seeing as it's actually semi on the table. But we'll get a motorway between Enniscorthy and Gorey first.

    That's it exactly. Even when you consider motorway schemes, the more important ones (M20 for example) get put to the bottom of the pile in favour of completely paving over county Wexford and building a mega bridge to the Waterford Megalopolis. Perhaps it's just an anti City bias in general in transport expenditure?

    or perhaps the state is attempting to split the budget into 26 equal portions along GAA lines, with Wexford and Mayo getting very high weightings for some reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,015 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Corruption and lack of accountability. Councillors in (say) Swords could vote for a rezoning in (say) Dun Laoghaire, and vice versa, and each could go back to their voters and say that isn't the rezoning in our area awful altogether and we all voted against it but we got overruled. Brown envelopes greased the wheels too.
    This still happens within the smaller administrative boundaries though. It happens on every county council in the country IMO. If this was a real reason you'd also have to break up the other county councils, many of which are far bigger than County Dublin was and allow this kind of corruption to take place much more easily.

    The real reason Dublin County Council was abolished was because its power was rivalling that of the Dail's. Thatcher did exactly the same thing to the Greater London Council as it was too big for her to control (and in that case usually if not always under Labour control).

    It's probably one of the worst things to happen to Dublin politically speaking.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    This is going to irk a lot of you who see the rest of the country outside of Dublin receive any capital expenditure.

    It's the latest population density in a deformed map of Ireland. Enjoy


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    D Trent wrote: »
    This is going to irk a lot of you who see the rest of the country outside of Dublin receive any capital expenditure.

    It's the latest population density in a deformed map of Ireland. Enjoy

    I don't get it?


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    I don't get it?

    It's a map of Ireland distorted to show where most people live.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    D Trent wrote: »
    This is going to irk a lot of you who see the rest of the country outside of Dublin receive any capital expenditure.

    This bit. I don't get it either.

    murphaph wrote: »
    The real reason Dublin County Council was abolished was because its power was rivalling that of the Dail's.

    I don't buy it. The powers of LAs here have long been far less than those in the UK, abolishing domestic rates put a huge chunk of their budgets at the mercy of central government.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,412 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Aagghh cut that horrible tumor out...
    Actually I'm kind of surprised it looks as much like ireland as it does...

    Anyway .. on the dublin population densities thing I do think metro/ luas ,brt systems even a decent bus service and bike infrastructure will serve to increase the population densities in "improved " areas .. its accessibility, 15 / 20 mins of public transport with a 5 or 10 min walk is no problem and people will live in appartments(or ranelagh levels of pop density) to attain this... they mightnt be as keen to live in an appartment if they have 1.5 hours travel...
    Also how much of dublins destinations now hub off the m50 not the centre of town..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,109 ✭✭✭Ben D Bus


    Just Googling population densities I found this

    http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/03/is-dublin-a-low-density-city/

    I can't speak for it's veracity but it does make for interesting reading. It states the Dublin continuous urban area has the same population but is considerably more densly populated than Amsterdam?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    monument wrote: »
    It's a map of Ireland distorted to show where most people live.

    I got that. I didn't get the point they were attempting to make




  • I got that. I didn't get the point they were attempting to make
    I think that it's simply to point out the fact that Dublin has about a third of the country’s population. Therefore, at least of a third of all infrastructure investment should be spent there.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    At the moment, there is one major transport project underway in Dublin, one in Galway and two in Wexford. Doesn't really distribute well in fairness


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Would you see the second terminal at Dublin Airport as a Dublin project? Or the M50 upgrade as a Dublin project?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    What percentage of it should Wexford get? They've had the M11 Gorey BP, M11 Enniscorthy BP and the N25 New Ross BP incorporating Ireland's biggest bridge.

    Bar the M8 (which is an EU TEN-T core route, and is also a 'road to Dublin'), Cork has had no large scale road projects in the last number of years


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Well 28% of infrastructure spending if that is how people think it should be calculated.

    300 million per annum for Dublin! I'll take it. We'll have MN paid for in 5 or 6 years


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Ah ya but that's only 28% of infrastructure development. If you look at all the projects in Dublin financed by the state that are not available elsewhere. Luas, dart, Dublin bus, Dublin bikes etc they all have to be subsidised.
    DB are funded by dcc
    Luas is profit making if I'm not mistaken
    A third of the subvertion budget will do and if not I don't mind paying a little extra at the fair box


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Deedsie wrote: »
    I thought they were all subsidised. My bad. Still nice to have these great public infrastructure options. People in the rest of the country can only dream to be so well serviced.

    And I can only dream of having 2 acres of land. Cork, Limerick and Galway all have bikes sharing schemes. Cork should have a tram and motorway link with limerick but other than that the list of needs outside Dublin gets quite small.

    Going full Freud here tell me of these dreams you speak of. What do you dream of? A bypass for every town and village?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,412 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    A bit of a daft argument really... there should be 2 or 3 criteria,
    Need,
    Value
    And cost benefit...

    The "my region / county should get an airport- railway- motorway" attitude helped get us into a mess...
    Theres a load of big capital project i'd love to see in cork.. but I can see dublin mass public transport as being a priority ...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    I don't buy it. The powers of LAs here have long been far less than those in the UK, abolishing domestic rates put a huge chunk of their budgets at the mercy of central government.

    There might have been some good reasons for carving up Dublin for some functions, but carving it up in the way it was, was in itself aimed at weakening local government.

    Central government is power hungry and keeps undermining and removing power from local government -- we must be one of the worst examples of a unitary state in the developed world.

    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Thats exactly why people are calling for an elected mayor for all of Dublin.

    It's nearly the first time I've seen it put that way and I've read a lot on a mayor for Dublin.
    D.L.R. wrote: »
    Dublin City Council is just the inner city.

    Errr... no, it's not.

    Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure, Ringsend, Irishtown, Ballyfermot, Inchicore, Crumlin, Drimnagh, Walkinstown, Kilbarrack, Raheny, Donaghmede, Coolock, Clontarf, Fairview, Drumcondra, Cabra, Ashtown, Finglas, Ballymun, Santry, Whitehall, and Glasnevin are all part of the Dublin City Council area and are not in the inner city.

    You could fit the inner city 9 or 10 times into the total area covered by the city council.

    D.L.R. wrote: »
    The outer suburbs and commuter belt are demographically quite different, but don't get to elect DCC councillors. So DCC ends up far more leftist than the rest of the city.

    That's why we need a more representative body speaking for the whole city.

    Cork city has a similar problem.

    The most extreme outlier in Co Dublin is DLRCC -- it has ~55% people from parties of the right and a rough guest of independents -- yes, Dublin City has the highest number of left winger, but it is closer to the county wide average than DLRCC.

    The average across the four council areas is around 58% or higher of left leaning councillors. It always depends of the individual candidate, but a moderate left or left leaning candidate is likely to have a fairly good change of getting elected.

    IF you're hinting at a mayor for the Greater Dublin Area -- that position with the powers that the mayor of London / Greater London Authority has would massively weaken national government on housing, transport, policing.

    To put this in context: that'd mean the provision of housing, Dublin gangland crime, Garda stations in the GDA, what happens to the M50, Luas, Irish Rail in the GDA, Dublin Bus etc would all be out of the control of central government -- that's a massive leap, far larger than London made and Dublin is more central to power in Ireland. Turkeys voting for Christmas comes to mind (unless a very powerful turkey think they can get the job).

    A person representing the GDA would be representing over 40% of the country's population. That won't just rival minister's powers but it would be viewed as many as the most powerful position besides Taoiseach -- and a GDA mayor could hit an unpopular Taoiseach with the point that he/she was elected.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Interesting stuff Sam.

    Any mention of a possible rerouting of the DART Underground project, which originally had to be built via St. Stephen's Green to achieve integration of all rail modes, but will soon have other potential routes - like, for example, via the pedestrianised plaza proposed by Dublin City Council for College Green - and the discussion is cut off in minutes.

    A considerable amount of material about the failures of Irish planning to correctly apportion the available money to the various projects needed or in train, and it's allowed to ramble on, on the DART Underground thread, for several days, over several pages, with you yourself contributing to the discussion.

    It's a puzzle.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,917 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    I think there is hardly any money being spent on infrastructure anywhere in Ireland including Dublin right now so complaining of bias is pointless.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,048 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    monument wrote: »



    Errr... no, it's not.

    Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure, Ringsend, Irishtown, Ballyfermot, Inchicore, Crumlin, Drimnagh, Walkinstown, Kilbarrack, Raheny, Donaghmede, Coolock, Clontarf, Fairview, Drumcondra, Cabra, Ashtown, Finglas, Ballymun, Santry, Whitehall, and Glasnevin are all part of the Dublin City Council area and are not in the inner city.

    You could fit the inner city 9 or 10 times into the total area covered by the city council.

    But you do realise that what you have quoted was the original Dublin Corporation area which became Dublin City Council. Everything else was originally Dublin County Council. Not much has really changed except for the division of the original Dublin County Council region into Fingal and South County Dublin.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,317 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    In terms of importance, which should come first, a motorway around Enniscorthy or DART Underground?

    No further questions


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    monument wrote: »
    There might have been some good reasons for carving up Dublin for some functions, but carving it up in the way it was, was in itself aimed at weakening local government.

    Central government is power hungry and keeps undermining and removing power from local government -- we must be one of the worst examples of a unitary state in the developed world.




    It's nearly the first time I've seen it put that way and I've read a lot on a mayor for Dublin.



    Errr... no, it's not.

    Rathmines, Rathgar, Terenure, Ringsend, Irishtown, Ballyfermot, Inchicore, Crumlin, Drimnagh, Walkinstown, Kilbarrack, Raheny, Donaghmede, Coolock, Clontarf, Fairview, Drumcondra, Cabra, Ashtown, Finglas, Ballymun, Santry, Whitehall, and Glasnevin are all part of the Dublin City Council area and are not in the inner city.

    You could fit the inner city 9 or 10 times into the total area covered by the city council.



    You could include Donneybrook, Sandymount and Ballsbridge in your list because DCC do in theirs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    spacetweek wrote: »
    I think there is hardly any money being spent on infrastructure anywhere in Ireland including Dublin right now so complaining of bias is pointless.

    Nearly a billon per annum isn't small change


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,815 ✭✭✭✭emmet02


    Nearly a billon per annum isn't small change

    Agreed, but that is not enough either.

    We have an infrastructure deficit in an awful lot of the country, the priorities need to be organised properly, the funding needs to be released, and we need to get working on it.

    There are so many reasons that right now, today should be the time we start an awful lot of the upgrades that Ireland.Inc needs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,460 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    The case should be that infra like Metro North or DU is not a Dublin issue, it is something that affects all of Ireland.

    Dublin is already under huge demand from multi national companies wanting to locate here, and is in a position to capitalise on spill over demand that might occur due to Brexit.

    Yet, as it stands, the city will find it incredibly difficult to grab these opportunities because there's a deficit in desirable office space, but more importantly there's a huge deficit in desirable or even available residential space for the new workers of these companies. And when you're trying to attract workers from across the EU and afar, you absolutely need desirable, affordable places to live and these companies know it.

    Dublin is currently constrained by what it can offer as desirable and affordable accommodation due to the dearth of useful public transport infra. Think of the M50 as a clock face and essentially only 2, 5, 7, and 9 o'clock are served by any rapid transport. Vast swathes of prime real estate lands are completely disconnected from this rapid transport, making them unsuitable for any of these incoming workers and further constraining what little desirable property does exist in the city centre.

    If you accept that the presence of these big companies in Dublin is advantageous for ALL of Ireland, then you cannot say that public transport infra for Dublin would also not benefit everyone in the country. And it has nothing to do with making life easier for Dublin's drivers!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 201 ✭✭mickmmc


    At the time of the vote for a directly elected Mayor Cllr. Anne Devitt, a former councillor of the old authority, gave her experience of Dublin County Council from a Fingal point of view. She said it stopped at Dublin Airport and you couldn't get a pipe fixed North of Dublin Airport.

    Swords has been neglected for years; it has one of the finest examples of an Archbishop's castle in the Country dating back to 1200 (Swords Castle). It has been in local authority ownership since 1985 and it has only been opened to the public since last year.:rolleyes:

    Consultants brought in by the CEO of FCC, Paul Reid, referred to Swords Castle and Park as a 'sleeping giant' and that Swords Main St was not acceptable for a County town. Currently, consolidation works on Swords Castle and demolition of buildings on North Street are being undertaken. Also, there are plans to develop a Cultural Quarter in Swords. The CEO of Fingal Co. Council, based in Swords, is driving the development.

    The development of Swords Main Street/North Street/Swords Castle should have happened years ago.

    Councillors in Fingal voted down the proposal for a directly elected Mayor due to a fear that the region would be neglected again.


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