New proposed 30km/h speed limits-"Consultation"?

magicbastarder

Mary63 wrote: »

I said personally speaking it is very hard to drive at thirty km per hour in a car with a bigger engine.

again, if you're blaming your car on not being able to adhere to rules of the road, you should reconsider the car. or get more practice.

magicbastarder

stasha wrote: »

The topic is "save lives":)
Funny how defensive push bikers get when faces with their own failing to follow the rules...

i thought the topic was the proposed speed limit and its effects. since speed limits don't apply to cyclists or pedestrians, they're outside the scope of the topic.

my own 2c - i don't think the change in speed limit will have the effect people claim it will; neither the benefit that people will claim in terms of increasing safety, nor the drawbacks of people who claim it will slow traffic down considerably.

however, if you did want to bring cyclists into the discussion, i don't think a 30kph limit would affect them either - it's relatively unusual to get much above 30km/h on a bicycle in the city.

Captain Chaos

Ever try and drive at 30km/h in the city centre. I had to as part of my EDTs, some years back all the general traffic was gone as they don't have to obey the limit and I was left crawling along at 30 while the whole world stepped out infront of me jay walking.

30k is far too slow and dangerous as people just take you as fair game, at least if I was doing 50 next to no one would be casually walking out infront of me.

endagibson

Mary63 wrote: »

no,its a big car and its really hard work keeping the speed to 30 kms,you would be quicker walking to wherever you are going.

I can drive at under 30km/h, even under 20km/h, quite easily. Drop down the gearbox and keep the revs low. How do you get out of your driveway safely? Average walking speed is 4 - 5 km/h. If you can walk at faster than 30 km/h, you should contact the Irish Olympic Council.

Mary63 wrote: »

Cars are not designed to move at thirty km per hour,if you want to go at that speed get yourself a tricycle.

They certainly can.

Mary63 wrote: »

These speed limits will be put in place regardless of the time you are driving so if you are on an empty road from midnight on you will still have to drive at 30 kms per hour.If you get points its three at a time and twelve points will put you off the road.

Yes, you'll also need to have a license, tax and insurance. The laws remain in effect at night.

Mary63 wrote: »

Who are these numptys.They are making it more and more difficult to bring your car into the city centre and this will make life even for difficult for people with disabilities who need their cars to be independent,has anyone thought about this while we try and force everyone onto bikes.The city centre will become dead while everyone is queueing up to get into Dundrum.

Sending more and more cars into the city is unsustainable. People with disabilities will probably get an exemption of some sort. The city centre will not die unless Dublin is a unique place that works completely differently to other cities in Europe. Research has shown that cyclists spend more per person than drivers, probably because they have to fuel themselves. The city won't die because cities are all about people, not cars.

Mary63 wrote: »

Its proposed to bring the new speed limits up to the county borders,this means you will be driving at thirty kms per hour in places as far from the city centre as Raheny.

If it's a residential area, then I've no problem with that. Driving a lot faster doesn't necessarily get you to your destination any faster, but it does introduce extra risk and most of that is external to the car.

hmmm

I try and obey the speed limits, but if this was ever implemented I'd end up ignoring it like everyone else. Silly speed limits bring the whole thing into disrepute, and pretty much force responsible drivers to join the ranks of the irresponsible.

galwaycyclist

hmmm wrote: »

I try and obey the speed limits, but if this was ever implemented I'd end up ignoring it like everyone else. Silly speed limits bring the whole thing into disrepute, and pretty much force responsible drivers to join the ranks of the irresponsible.

So let me see if I have this right. You think its "responsible" to drive at 50kph around schools, on residential streets and in housing estates?

Cookie_Monster

galwaycyclist wrote: »

So let me see if I have this right. You think its "responsible" to drive at 50kph around schools, on residential streets and in housing estates?

Entirely so.

beauf

I think inappropriate speed has become normalised. So 30kph, seems very slow.

monument

With the city council plan for 30km/h, exactly which roads or streets do people have an issue with the limit being lowered?

endagibson

Captain Chaos wrote: »

all the general traffic was gone as they don't have to obey the limit

That's not true. The limit was there for everyone. You're just admitting and providing evidence that the limit itself is worthless without enforcement. Your enforcement just happened to be sitting in your passenger seat rather than mounted on top of a pole or locked in a transit van.

Captain Chaos wrote: »

jay walking.

There's no such thing as jay walking in this country. Legally it doesn't exist, which is fitting as it's a made up term from the american auto lobby.

Captain Chaos wrote: »

30k is far too slow and dangerous as people just take you as fair game, at least if I was doing 50 next to no one would be casually walking out infront of me.

You're saying that you need to drive faster so that you intimidate other people off the road and out of your way. Not very nice. 30 km/h is not too slow for streets with pedestrians that are likely to cross and it's not dangerous. Unless the driver isn't paying attention of course.

hmmm

galwaycyclist wrote: »

So let me see if I have this right. You think its "responsible" to drive at 50kph around schools, on residential streets and in housing estates?

This speed limit is not being limited to schools or playgrounds or whereever. It's a blanket limit covering a swath of the city centre, and it's being presented under a guise of "saving lives".

As other people have said, having someone waving a red flag in front of a car will also save lives, why not bring that in? What about other measures - will we be penalising jaywalkers? Will we be arresting cyclists cycling in a way that puts them at risk?

A balance has to be struck between the needs of millions of individual journeys, versus the increased risk of accidents. "If it saves one child..." is not an argument, it's an attempt to deflect by appealing to emotions.

beauf

Be interesting to read how effective they are.

http://www.steerdaviesgleave.com/news-and-insights/20mph-speed-limits-and-their-effectiveness

Conclusion

In conclusion, it is clear that reducing vehicle speeds results in fewer and less severe collisions, particularly for vulnerable road users. However, whilst 20mph zones have been successful at reducing speeds by using physical traffic calming measures, limited resources and relaxed regulations mean that signed-only 20mph limits are now preferred. These tend to achieve smaller decreases in vehicle speeds and therefore smaller improvements in road safety.

The challenge is therefore to find ways to achieve larger reductions in speeds in signed-only 20mph limits, so that road safety benefits are maximised. Enforcement is required, but this is only a partial solution. The key to achieving sustained and meaningful speed reductions is to change drivers’ attitudes to urban driving speeds. This suggests that supporting measures that foster cultural change need to be an integral part of all 20mph schemes.

Another study here

http://www.monash.edu/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/216736/muarc276.pdf

blackwhite

endagibson wrote: »

Great stuff. Let's do this. I'm onboard. Fully committed. Let's save some lives!
Where are these people getting killed by dastardly push bike riders again?

endagibson wrote: »

I know, it's shocking. Imagine not wanting to run over kids in your car or wanting others to do so.

If you're playing that game - how many children have been killed by motorists on any of the roads where limit changes are proposed over the past 5 years?


BTW - I agree with the 30km/h limit in the core of the city centre - just as usual some of the arguments being volunteered to support it or condemn seem to be more grounded in a hatred of other road users than anything else.

beauf

blackwhite wrote: »

If you're playing that game - how many children have been killed by motorists on any of the roads where limit changes are proposed over the past 5 years?


BTW - I agree with the 30km/h limit in the core of the city centre - just as usual some of the arguments being volunteered to support it or condemn seem to be more grounded in a hatred of other road users than anything else.

Why don't you find some to support your own position.

http://www.thejournal.ie/children-road-safety-2-2027009-Apr2015/
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/road-deaths-rise-for-second-year-in-a-row-figures-show-1.2052097

The southern region accounted for the largest proportion of road deaths. Dublin recorded the biggest increase in fatalities (47 per cent) in 2014.

According to a recent RSA study into child road deaths, the most dangerous time for children on our roads is between 4 and 6 pm daily.
Children are most likely to be killed during the months April through August when over half (51%) of children were killed during the report’s time-range. Friday was the most dangerous day of the week.
The vast majority of such fatalities happen unsurprisingly in Dublin and Cork, with 15% and 10% respectively of all such fatal accidents occurring in those counties over the relevant period.

In total, 14 children under the age of 15 died on Irish roads last year, fully 36.7% of all child deaths of any kind in Ireland as a whole.
This marks our roads out as the worst offender here when it comes to the deaths of children.
Of those 14 killed, seven were pedestrians and seven were passengers.
Most upsetting of all, last year saw a five-fold increase in the numbers of children killed on our roads since 2012, when fatalities were at a record low of just three.

blackwhite

beauf wrote: »

Why don't you find some to support your own position.

http://www.thejournal.ie/children-road-safety-2-2027009-Apr2015/
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/road-deaths-rise-for-second-year-in-a-row-figures-show-1.2052097

How many of those were on the roads where these changes are proposed for?

The 30km/h changes are predominantly designed to improve the safety of commuter cyclists. I've no problem with that.

I've a problem with people spouting emotive lies trying to claim "it's the children"

galwaycyclist

hmmm wrote: »

This speed limit is not being limited to schools or playgrounds or whereever. It's a blanket limit covering a swath of the city centre, and it's being presented under a guise of "saving lives".

As other people have said, having someone waving a red flag in front of a car will also save lives, why not bring that in? What about other measures - will we be penalising jaywalkers? Will we be arresting cyclists cycling in a way that puts them at risk?

A balance has to be struck between the needs of millions of individual journeys, versus the increased risk of accidents. "If it saves one child..." is not an argument, it's an attempt to deflect by appealing to emotions.

At the end of the 1990's this country had the highest child pedestrian death rate in Western Europe. Other countries in Europe fixed the issue through the use of 30kph zones and also thousands of home zones or living streets where a speed limit of walking speed applies.

The Irish state did effectively nothing except teach children a nursery rhyme about crossing the road.

Irish parents fixed the problem by eliminating independent travel for a large cohort of Irish children - whether going to school, or to training, or to visit friends many Irish children have to be driven in cars.

Many of the "millions of individual (car) journeys" that you refer to are not in fact "needed". They have been created by failures of state policy - including a failure to adopt and enforce a credible speed limit policy.

Roadhawk

I believe there are a number of countries that have a 30km speed limit in urban areas like Vatican, Ethiopia, Samoa and Panama. Is this really necessary for Ireland? I really cannot see any sense in reducing the speed limit. Even the 30km limit currently on the quays (speed van at Guinness) has just been a revenue raising operation with no other added value. Extending this limit around Dublin is completely ridiculous and counter productive. I cant help but to feel that the implementation of this limit is to drive the the campaigns of increasing cycling and the use of public transport at the expense of the private motorist.

I do agree with the limit to be implemented around pedestrianised streets (Grafton/Henry/etc) as there is usually more pedestrians moving about. Also school areas and residential areas should have the 30km limit.

_Kaiser_

It's a moronic decision that will be as ignored as the existing 30 km/h limits are now.

There are times when it's not safe/appropriate/possible to exceed 30 km/h, but a blanket ban to the entire DCC area is stupidity. I for one rarely venture into the city centre anymore anyway but moves like this will ensure that I actively avoid doing so (for shopping, business or pleasure). I've already told recruitment agencies in the past that I wouldn't be interested in jobs in town because of the parking/costs/traffic. This will only exacerbate the situation I reckon.

When you have an unreliable and ever more expensive public transport system and a situation where people have been priced further and further out of the city from an accommodation standpoint, cars are pretty much essential if you need to get anywhere effectively

LeChienMefiant

blackwhite wrote: »

How many of those were on the roads where these changes are proposed for?

The 30km/h changes are predominantly designed to improve the safety of commuter cyclists. I've no problem with that.

I've a problem with people spouting emotive lies trying to claim "it's the children"

It's also about quality of life for families. I shouldn't have to be constantly on edge for maniacal driving in my residential area. Speeding in residential streets, reversing at speed down narrow cul de sacs, failure to yield at pavements and junctions, driving the wrong way down one way streets. Not to mention threatening vulnerable road users with vehicles. All of these behaviours are a regular occurrence by commuters and delivery drivers. They have no concept that people are living in these areas.

I have submitted to the council wholeheartedly in support of the plan and have actually advocated blocking off some of these streets to through traffic as it's just not possible to enforce these laws. The proposal for quietways is coming down the line and I will be supporting this also.

The dominance of motor vehicles in the city needs to be challenged and will decrease over time. It's a recent phenomenon and for part of that time it was limited by economic means. It's just not appropriate to have unfettered access to towns and cities.

I'm aware that this is a minority view, like on many issues. But I'll take a principled approach and state my case and won't be bullied out of it.

monument

hmmm wrote: »

This speed limit is not being limited to schools or playgrounds or whereever. It's a blanket limit covering a swath of the city centre, and it's being presented under a guise of "saving lives".

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

There are times when it's not safe/appropriate/possible to exceed 30 km/h, but a blanket ban to the entire DCC area is stupidity

There's no evidence of a "blanket limit" -- main routes are excluded, so please refrain from that phrase.

Posters here posting long posts can take the time to check the map on the city council's website rather than relying on sources which are not accurate.

-- moderator

_Kaiser_

monument wrote: »

There's no evidence of a "blanket limit" -- main routes are excluded, so please refrain from that phrase.

Posters here posting long posts can take the time to check the map on the city council's website rather than relying on sources which are not accurate.

-- moderator

Ok, let's try that ... here's the map:

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Documents/Appendix%20E%20-%20rt3369_10%20-%2030KP%20Speed%20Limit%20Review-01.06.2016.pdf

It's blatantly obvious that this is a first stage in imposing this new limit in all areas covered by DCC - notably by the intent to "review" the arterial routes in "Phase 3" as well as : all other roads and areas (see Legend)

magicbastarder

so saying 'we will review the situation' is a 'blatantly obvious' signal that it will definitely happen?

Roadhawk

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Ok, let's try that ... here's the map:

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Documents/Appendix%20E%20-%20rt3369_10%20-%2030KP%20Speed%20Limit%20Review-01.06.2016.pdf

It's blatantly obvious that this is a first stage in imposing this new limit in all areas covered by DCC - notably by the intent to "review" the arterial routes in "Phase 3" as well as : all other roads and areas (see Legend)

I agree..its like a tax. Once implemented it just continues to grow.

Roadhawk

Deedsie wrote: »

and France, Spain, Switzerland & the U.K... But you are clearly well informed on the subject.

I can only see a 30km speed limit in residential area of France, Spain, Switzerland & the U.K. not urban routes. Do you have any sources showing otherwise?

_Kaiser_

Roadhawk wrote: »

I agree..its like a tax. Once implemented it just continues to grow.

Exactly.. small steps. Implementing it overnight in all areas would cause massive resistance, but by doing it piecemeal and claiming successful "trials" (in the same manner as they say the existing 30 km/h limits have proven successful), there's likely to be far less mass opposition.

Decent Skin

endagibson wrote: »

Great stuff. Let's do this. I'm onboard. Fully committed. Let's save some lives!
Where are these people getting killed by dastardly push bike riders again?

Er, maybe said bike riders (and their fellow kamikaze jaywalkers) when they break lights and go up one-way streets and on footpaths ?

galwaycyclist

Roadhawk wrote: »

I can only see a 30km speed limit in residential area of France, Spain, Switzerland & the U.K. not urban routes. Do you have any sources showing otherwise?

Here you go

http://en.30kmh.eu/2015/11/27/trendsetters-for-30-kmh-research-with-surprising-results/

Twenty, thirty, or forty? How many European municipalities have already implemented a wide 30 km/h speed limit on their road network? We did some research on those pioneers, and this is what we found: an amazing number of one hundred and sixty municipalities, in fifteen European countries! We feel this is just marvellous.

If you want to find examples from the mainland the search term "tempo 30" works for a few languages countries.

Roadhawk

galwaycyclist wrote: »

Here you go

http://en.30kmh.eu/2015/11/27/trendsetters-for-30-kmh-research-with-surprising-results/



If you want to find examples from the mainland the search term "tempo 30" works for a few languages countries.

Wow, I'm truly shocked. I'm still to be convinced of its benefits though (other than financial). Great site though.

gctest50

Mercedes seem to think its a good idea, they put a lot of effort and resources into safety

http://500sec.com/lim-electronic-speed-limiter/

All Mercedes cars available in the market today have LIM facilities unlike the older versions, which used to have the cruise controller instead.

The LIM or speed limiter is an optional facility provided to the driver, which enables him to set a maximum cruising speed between thirty kilometers per hour and the cars maximum possible speed.


The LIM in a Mercedes Benz can be regarded as an extra precaution against accidents or creation of risky situations.


It is an innovative step taken by Mercedes Corporation to ensure better road safety.

galwaycyclist

Roadhawk wrote: »

Wow, I'm truly shocked. I'm still to be convinced of its benefits though (other than financial). Great site though.

Check out the dates on some of the Austrian and German cities.

Ireland is truly stuck in the dark ages on this issue.