New proposed 30km/h speed limits-"Consultation"?

stasha

Is anyone aware of the process of providing feedback/ inputs into the latest Dublin City public consultation on proposed expansion of the 30km/h speed limit? There is no feedback form available on the Dublin City website except the one-sided statistics and recommendations.

If this is passed, it will mostly affect those of us who have no option of using DART or LUAS (or any other good quality public transport).
AA's Conor Faughnan disagrees with the proposed measures; so do 75% of the road users (according to the Irish Times' poll yesterday).
They say "if London has it then we have to have it too" - no reference to the first class London public transport.

As usual, the "save the children" card being played. No reference or attempt is made to educate "vulnerable road users" (pedestrians and push bikers) about the basic road rules. I use the Quays every day on my commute to work as a motorcyclist and I can witness that car drivers are obeying rules of the road much more than most of the pedestrians or Dublin Bike users.

Who is lobbying on behalf of us forced to use motor vehicles commuting to city centre, as no viable public transport is available? Who should we contact?

PS: No surprise to see this proposal is put forward during the holiday season when the expected push back is much lower

LXFlyer

Whatever about the speed limits - the city centre is the one place there are viable public transport options from all across the city, unless of course you need the car for work.

The consultation has a large area for you to make comments on from what I can see:
https://consultation.dublincity.ie/traffic-and-transport/proposed-special-speed-byelaws-submission/consultation/subpage.2016-07-07.5342212011/view

magicbastarder

i fail to see how lowering the speed limit will make much difference to average commute times through the city, which are noticeably slower than the 50kph speed limit anyway.
that said, you're on a motorbike which would presumably fare better than a car in traffic.

stasha

Thanks for the link, I failed to find it yesterday.
PS: By "viable public transport" I am referring to the one where it takes less than hour to cover 15km - not much to ask, is it?

LXFlyer

stasha wrote: »

Thanks for the link, I failed to find it yesterday.
PS: By "viable public transport" I am referring to the one where it takes less than hour to cover 15km - not much to ask, is it?

What's the trip you're making?

work

"I use the Quays every day on my commute to work as a motorcyclist and I can witness that car drivers are obeying rules of the road much more than most of the pedestrians or Dublin Bike users."

I do not think they are talking about changing the speed limits on the main roads like the quays....however I could be wrong. If a car was to hit you at 30km your chances of survival are increased from 50Km (no evidence....but I would think this is easy to find)

I use all forms of transport and can as such have a view on each. However 90% of the time I cycle.

You are correct that cars drivers obey the rules more than pedestrians/cyclists however they are still appalling. It is just that the other groups are so bad that one might think they are doing OK. There are obedient and disobedient road users in all categories and no single person should ever feel singled out when their form of transport is referenced.

If a car breaks the rules of the road and collides with pedestrians/cyclists then they are the ones that suffer significant morbidity and possibly death. This is why it is so important cars obey the rules absolutely. I saw a car doing approx 100km in a 50km zone yesterday...No pedestrians/cyclists can put life in danger that way. If a child runs out yes they are to blame also but do they deserve to die....Nobody would say yes...however the person driving at 100km didnt care. If this area was 30km the driver would really struggle to reach the speed they were at.

I do however believe, in the interest of safety and fairness, all road users (cars/pedestrians/cyclists) should be subject to the same rules and our biggest problem is a complete lack of policing on the roads.......Ther are almost no guards.....There seems to be no real deterrent to obeying the rules (look at all the cases that go through the courts...these are the worst offenders and almost nothing happens).

There is also no reason cyclists (especially) and pedestrians should not receive fines for not obeying the rules. Nothing is ever done.

In summary I agree with the 30km zone. The average commute in these areas is probably only 10-20km already. The real issue is a lack of policing and evn when there is policing there seems to be no apatite to chastise the offender. Really high and enforced fines would be the way to go. Make this a really effective revenue making exercise....why not?

stasha

magicbastarder wrote: »

i fail to see how lowering the speed limit will make much difference to average commute times through the city, which are noticeably slower than the 50kph speed limit anyway.
that said, you're on a motorbike which would presumably fare better than a car in traffic.

You just nailed it - the 30km/h would not affect most of the road users (cars, buses) that crawl in the rush hour. It would however affect those of us who at the moment can move faster than that (which is only motorcyclists and push bikes).

It's a "farcical" and "absurd" measure, as AA's Conor Faughnan has put it.
Outside of the rush hour, the 30km/h would be used as a money making scheme- give "speeding" motorists points that get translated to higher insurance premiums by the cash-strapped motor insurers.
As a motorcyclist (and a vulnerable road user) I'll only get more cars tailgating/ dangerously overtaking me as I'm obeying rules of the road by doing the 30km/h. This measure can only put my life in danger. And please don't say this would not happen as everyone would be driving 30 - it is a farcical measure and people will not obey the rule (unless they see a speed camera ahead).

magicbastarder

work wrote: »

I do not think they are talking about changing the speed limits on the main roads like the quays....however I could be wrong.

you are not wrong. the speed limit on the quays will not be changed; as the speed limit on the quays is already at 30kph.

LXFlyer

Getting into a one group is better than another group with regard to obeying our road legislation is pointless. It just descends into stupid arguments.

All groups are guilty of not abiding by our road legislation and until people recognise that, and stop blaming one group or several other groups, and we actually start as a society to adjust our behaviour it's not going to change.

stasha

lxflyer wrote: »

What's the trip you're making?

Lucan to East Point

LXFlyer

stasha wrote: »

Lucan to East Point

Well first off that's a cross city trip - East Point is not in the city centre.

You can't expect public transport to seamlessly cover every combination of cross-city trips.

But having said that depending upon where you're coming from in Lucan the 151 should do that trip in an hour or so?

magicbastarder

to put it in perspective - expecting to reach an average speed of 30kph would be like expecting to be able to drive from DCU to UCD, and back again, in less than one hour (it's approx. 14km each way).

what determines how long you take is not how fast you can go on the fast bits, but how slow you go on the slow bits. the main difference between being able to do 30kph and 50kph is that 50 will simply allow you to catch up with the car in front ever so slightly sooner.

suggesting that lowering the speed limit will increase commute times is akin to suggesting that if we raised city centre speed limits to 80kph, that traffic would flow more freely.

cgcsb

I don't see it making a difference really. Any update on the re-organisation of bus routes, liffey cycleway? ya know general things that'll actually have an effect on commutes.

Mary63

Its an insane proposal,its almost impossible in my car to drive at 30 km per hour and I don't speed and have no penalty points.

It isn't just the 30 km per hour,its proposed that the Stillorgan dual carriageway be 60 km all the way,this is ridiculous,its perfectly safe to drive at 80 kms per hour safely on most of this road.

How is this going to affect taxi prices if its going to take you all day and night to get from A to B.Half the country is going to be off the road with penalty points if this goes through.

I can understand the argument about making safety a priority with children but parents have a responsibility too to ensure their children are not too young to be playing outdoors unsupervised too.

magicbastarder

Mary63 wrote: »

its almost impossible in my car to drive at 30 km per hour

i'm sorry? is there a mechanical fault with your car?

Mary63

no,its a big car and its really hard work keeping the speed to 30 kms,you would be quicker walking to wherever you are going.

Cars are not designed to move at thirty km per hour,if you want to go at that speed get yourself a tricycle.

These speed limits will be put in place regardless of the time you are driving so if you are on an empty road from midnight on you will still have to drive at 30 kms per hour.If you get points its three at a time and twelve points will put you off the road.

Who are these numptys.They are making it more and more difficult to bring your car into the city centre and this will make life even for difficult for people with disabilities who need their cars to be independent,has anyone thought about this while we try and force everyone onto bikes.The city centre will become dead while everyone is queueing up to get into Dundrum.

Its proposed to bring the new speed limits up to the county borders,this means you will be driving at thirty kms per hour in places as far from the city centre as Raheny.

magicbastarder

Mary63 wrote: »

It isn't nay the 30 km per hour,its proposed that the Stillorgan dual carriageway be 60 km all the way,this is ridiculous,its perfectly safe to drive at 80 kms per hour safely on most of this road.

from what i can tell, there's a 60km/h limit on the N11 north of foxrock church.
assuming it's 80km/h south of this section - from foxrock church to the roundabout at st. columcille's is 4.6km.

the fastest you could theoretically drive this stretch with the 80km/h limit - assuming all green lights, no traffic - is three and a half minutes.
with a limit of 60km/h, the fastest possible time is four minutes and 36 seconds.

in reality, the difference will be less than one minute, because you will spend time at lights.

plodder

work wrote: »

This is why it is so important cars obey the rules absolutely. I saw a car doing approx 100km in a 50km zone yesterday...No pedestrians/cyclists can put life in danger that way. If a child runs out yes they are to blame also but do they deserve to die....Nobody would say yes...however the person driving at 100km didnt care. If this area was 30km the driver would really struggle to reach the speed they were at.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you say, but I don't think the above is true. That driver will do 100km even if the speed limit is 30. As you say below, the lack of enforcement means that only law-abiding types are affected by these rules. Personally, I would like to see high levels of enforcement and compliance with the existing limits first, and then we look at whether they need to be reduced. The standard reaction here to lack of compliance with rules, is just to make the rules stricter, which is crazy really.

I do however believe, in the interest of safety and fairness, all road users (cars/pedestrians/cyclists) should be subject to the same rules and our biggest problem is a complete lack of policing on the roads.......Ther are almost no guards.....There seems to be no real deterrent to obeying the rules (look at all the cases that go through the courts...these are the worst offenders and almost nothing happens).

There is also no reason cyclists (especially) and pedestrians should not receive fines for not obeying the rules. Nothing is ever done.

In summary I agree with the 30km zone. The average commute in these areas is probably only 10-20km already. The real issue is a lack of policing and evn when there is policing there seems to be no apatite to chastise the offender. Really high and enforced fines would be the way to go. Make this a really effective revenue making exercise....why not?

stasha

lxflyer wrote: »

Well first off that's a cross city trip - East Point is not in the city centre.

You can't expect public transport to seamlessly cover every combination of cross-city trips.

But having said that depending upon where you're coming from in Lucan the 151 should do that trip in an hour or so?

When I worked in city centre I occasionally used 25a/25b - it takes an hour on average to cover the 14/15km.
You are correct 151 does to the Point, but in rush hour it takes 1-1.5 hours.
How long does it take to commute the same distances in London - 10 minutes? As I understand London is referred to by the supporters of the speed reduction proposal.

>You can't expect public transport to seamlessly cover every combination of cross-city trips.
And why not? I lived in few cities that have public transport that does effectively cover most of the cross-city routes. That is the best way of greatly reducing number of private vehicles entering city centre. No private vehicles-> no accidents:) Problem solved

Interesting to note so far there's been no comments on the pedestrians'/ Dublin bike users' behavior in the traffic and recommendations to improve it???!
I guess being a "vulnerable road user" absolves one of all the responsibilities

magicbastarder

Mary63 wrote: »

no,its a big car and its really hard work keeping the speed to 30 kms

'i have a big car so i should be able to drive faster'?
seriously?

magicbastarder

stasha wrote: »

Interesting to note so far there's been no comments on the pedestrians'/ Dublin bike users' behavior in the traffic and recommendations to improve it???!

maybe we're just trying to stay on topic!???!!!

Mary63

I said personally speaking it is very hard to drive at thirty km per hour in a car with a bigger engine.

I am not saying I want to drive at 100 km per hour when the speed limit is fifty for safety.Driving at fifty km per hour is safe and most people would drive even slower in housing estates.There is no need though to drive at thirty km per hour on roads outside estates and even within estates children should not be playing outside without supervision until the age of seven or eight.They don't have the road sense under this age and if they are going to run out without knowing road safety they shouldn't be on the road in the first place.

cgcsb

[QUOTE=stasha;100352656
How long does it take to commute the same distances in London - 10 minutes? As I understand London is referred to by the supporters of the speed reduction proposal.
[/QUOTE]

In London, if you are not living and working near the same underground line, it can easily take an hour to cover that distance. London shouldn't be the model though, public transport there is actually quite poor relative to it's size.

stasha

magicbastarder wrote: »

maybe we're just trying to stay on topic!???!!!

The topic is "save lives":)
Funny how defensive push bikers get when faces with their own failing to follow the rules...

endagibson

stasha wrote: »

As usual, the "save the children" card being played.

I know, it's shocking. Imagine not wanting to run over kids in your car or wanting others to do so.

LXFlyer

stasha wrote: »

The topic is "save lives":)
Funny how defensive push bikers get when faces with their own failing to follow the rules...

Again - you keep trying to focus on one group.

All road users - drivers, cyclists and pedestrians are frankly as bad as each other with regard to complying with road legislation.

Trying to blame one group over another is pointless.

TheExile1878

lxflyer wrote: »

Again - you keep trying to focus on one group.

All road users - drivers, cyclists and pedestrians are frankly as bad as each other with regard to complying with road legislation.

Trying to blame one group over another is pointless.

Critcize cyclists though and their prerecorded message is "cars are worse".

You can't get a decent discussion going.

endagibson

stasha wrote: »

The topic is "save lives":)
Funny how defensive push bikers get when faces with their own failing to follow the rules...

Great stuff. Let's do this. I'm onboard. Fully committed. Let's save some lives!
Where are these people getting killed by dastardly push bike riders again?

LXFlyer

TheExile1878 wrote: »

Critcize cyclists though and their prerecorded message is "cars are worse".

You can't get a decent discussion going.

With respect - it works identically if people blame drivers or pedestrians. It's just turns into a pointless point scoring exercise.

This is an issue with society as a whole and we all need to improve our behaviour - as cyclists, drivers or pedestrians.

TheExile1878

endagibson wrote: »

Great stuff. Let's do this. I'm onboard. Fully committed. Let's save some lives!
Where are these people getting killed by dastardly push bike riders again?

Told you.

"Bikes good. Cars bad. Ug"

endagibson

TheExile1878 wrote: »

You can't get a decent discussion going.

I wonder why that is. :rolleyes:

TheExile1878 wrote: »

No I don't cycle.

I have a brain.