Possible 2 full state pensions?

Lumina

Hi all,

I am in my 20s and just putting in some planning in terms of pensions. I worked for 4 years in the UK before moving to Ireland and starting work here.

I am trying to optimise my future state pensions for both the UK and Ireland. As I understand it, my wife and I can continue to pay national insurance in the UK (voluntary) as well as pay our contributory pensions that are coming out of our pensions. If I continue paying UK national insurance to make up the 35 years worth required for a full state pension, and keep paying pension contributions until retirement in Ireland, is it possible to achieve 2 full state pensions?

My calculations work out at:
Ireland - 233.30 euro/week = 12131.60Euro/year
UK - £155.65/week = £8093.80/year ~ 9505.48Euro/year
COMBINED 21641.08Euro/year WHICH WOULD BE COMFORTABLE!

Interested in whether people think this is possible and perhaps you would try it yourself if you are eligible.

mp22

You would need to check with the UK,to see if you can continue to make payments even though you are not resident there.

Lumina

HMRC say you can pay national insurance if you have worked for 3 years in the UK, pay any missing national insurance contributions from the previous 10 years, and lived in the UK immediately before moving to the new country you are living in.

Form I was referred to: Social Security Abroad NI38 which you can find on google

Is there anyone else here who has done this?

Senna

This just doesn't seem like a good idea, one thing, I don't think you can continue to pay NI and not be a resident or work in the country.
Secondly, you are making assumptions based on current levels, who says those level will continue or even keep up with inflation. There is a major pension problem coming in Ireland and the UK, people are living longer and state pensions were enacted at a time when people lived only for a few years after retirement, now people can live for 20+ years after retirement.

I would not be factoring in any state pension into my retirement plans, if it is still around, great. Speak to a pensions advisor and get real advice.

doc11

You can't pay into two social insurance schemes simultaneously in EU.

mmc272

Lumina wrote: »

HMRC say you can pay national insurance if you have worked for 3 years in the UK, pay any missing national insurance contributions from the previous 10 years, and lived in the UK immediately before moving to the new country you are living in.

Form I was referred to: Social Security Abroad NI38 which you can find on google

Is there anyone else here who has done this?

This is absolutely spot on. My parents both recently turned pension age in the past few years. Technically, your not supposed to pay into 2 systems at once but the UK don't seem to care about that. It doesn't work the other way around. As long as you have 3 years contributions you can contribute voluntarily. Submit a payslip and/or p60 to show proof that you are working here in Ireland. This will enable you to pay the cheaper class 2 rate, around 180 per year.

leelee77

Have you followed this up Lumina?

We are in a similar situation. We worked for 8 years in the UK and have just submitted a form to the UK to see if we can pay class 2 contributions.

Lumina

leelee77 wrote: »

Have you followed this up Lumina?

We are in a similar situation. We worked for 8 years in the UK and have just submitted a form to the UK to see if we can pay class 2 contributions.

Yeah. It's legit and HMRC said its all above board. We have done our forms, got our replies about 4 months later, then paid up everything we had too.

EverythingGood

doc11 wrote: »

You can't pay into two social insurance schemes simultaneously in EU.

UK won't be in the EU for much longer

leelee77

Lumina wrote: »

Yeah. It's legit and HMRC said its all above board. We have done our forms, got our replies about 4 months later, then paid up everything we had too.

Great thanks for the reply. Our forms went off today!

infogiver

EverythingGood wrote: »

UK won't be in the EU for much longer

This is true though . People need to be careful that they're not throwing good money after bad.

Lumina

infogiver wrote: »

This is true though . People need to be careful that they're not throwing good money after bad.

My thoughts are that Britain will do quite well after an initial chaos so bacjing this horse.

infogiver

Lumina wrote: »

My thoughts are that Britain will do quite well after an initial chaos so bacjing this horse.

What I mean is that right now social insurance (PRSI here NI in U.K.) is transferable EU wide.
When UK leave EU none of us know what will happen about how that going to change.
Your planning to pay NI on a voluntary basis while paying PRSI here?

Lumina

infogiver wrote: »

What I mean is that right now social insurance (PRSI here NI in U.K.) is transferable EU wide.
When UK leave EU none of us know what will happen about how that going to change.
Your planning to pay NI on a voluntary basis while paying PRSI here?

Yes. There are many British Expat forums where people in non-eu countries do this. Planning for retirement should be a priority for all of us and since my partner and i are unlikely to achieve a full Irish contributory we might as well top up with this.

infogiver

Lumina wrote: »

Yes. There are many British Expat forums where people in non-eu countries do this. Planning for retirement should be a priority for all of us and since my partner and i are unlikely to achieve a full Irish contributory we might as well top up with this.

But your UK NI contributions can be used to satisfy the Irish state pension social insurance criteria when you reach pension age.

Lumina

infogiver wrote: »

But your UK NI contributions can be used to satisfy the Irish state pension social insurance criteria when you reach pension age.

What is superior to combining in the Irish/UK system is the ability to have a full UK pension plus a considerable Irish pension. I am more than happy to pay into 2 social insurance schemes as long as it is legal and available to do so, which it it is at present.

Bubbaclaus

Lumina wrote: »

What is superior to combining in the Irish/UK system is the ability to have a full UK pension plus a considerable Irish pension. I am more than happy to pay into 2 social insurance schemes as long as it is legal and available to do so, which it it is at present.

At present it is not, since it is against EU Regulations and EU Law to be paying into 2 systems at once.

TheBeach

The ex pats in non Eu countries may well be doing it as they can but at the minute those in employment within the. Eu cannot pay prsi in two Eu countries at the same time. Only one country's prsi contributions will be taken into account when calculating the irish /uk pension. At the minute i can't imagine the UK paying out on these voluntary contributions. Who knows what will happen after brexit though.

infogiver

TheBeach wrote: »

The ex pats in non Eu countries may well be doing it as they can but at the minute those in employment within the. Eu cannot pay prsi in two Eu countries at the same time. Only one country's prsi contributions will be taken into account when calculating the irish /uk pension. At the minute i can't imagine the UK paying out on these voluntary contributions. Who knows what will happen after brexit though.

This is not true. Right now in any EU state, any relevant social insurance contributions made in any other EU state as well as those made in US Canada Aus can be used to make up a Contributory pension.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/claiming_a_social_welfare_payment/social_insurance_contributions_from_abroad.html

Bubbaclaus

infogiver wrote: »

This is not true. Right now in any EU state, any relevant social insurance contributions made in any other EU state as well as those made in US Canada Aus can be used to make up a Contributory pension.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/irish_social_welfare_system/claiming_a_social_welfare_payment/social_insurance_contributions_from_abroad.html

Nobody is disputing that you can combine them. However, it is against the law to be contributing to 2 social security systems in the EU at the same time and subsequently doubling up on benefit claims. At best they would disregard the incorrect contributions you made and you would not get a refund for them either.

infogiver

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

Nobody is disputing that you can combine them. However, it is against the law to be contributing to 2 social security systems in the EU at the same time and subsequently doubling up on benefit claims. At best they would disregard the incorrect contributions you made and you would not get a refund for them either.

Yes this is true. I did say it was throwing good money after bad earlier in this thread

TheBeach

And also to combine them Ireland has to have either a bi latereral agreement with that country é.g America or Australia or another Eu country . We can not combine prsi/stamps /contributions with a lot of countries é.g Malaysia etc. So that would explain the ex pats in non Eu countries buying voluntary contributions.

endacl

doc11 wrote: »

You can't pay into two social insurance schemes simultaneously in EU.

The UK won't be in the eu soon.

Bubbaclaus

endacl wrote: »

The UK won't be in the eu soon.

For all we know the UK will remain part of the EU social security network as part of the Brexit deal. In fact, I would be surprised if they don't.

EU Social Security regulations and laws currently apply to Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland also even though they are not in the EU.

To say you can double up because of Brexit is just incorrect and terrible advice.

infogiver

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

For all we know the UK will remain part of the EU social security network as part of the Brexit deal. In fact, I would be surprised if they don't.

EU Social Security regulations and laws currently apply to Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland also even though they are not in the EU.

To say you can double up because of Brexit is just incorrect and terrible advice.

Even if they didn't go on the list of countries outside the EU but within the continent (very unlikely), they would definitely go on the list of reciprocal arrangement countries.

Bubbaclaus

infogiver wrote: »

Even if they didn't go on the list of countries outside the EU but within the continent (very unlikely), they would definitely go on the list of reciprocal arrangement countries.

There already is one in place covering the parts of the UK 'not covered by EU Regulations'.

amtc

My grandmother gets a contributory pension from here but also worked in Australia. She is still resident there and is 90. PPS numbers are shared automatically. Every time there's a change to the pension here her Australian one gets reduced. So hence the most recent 5 euro increase she won't get. Doesn't seem fair.

Steer55

Class two voluntary NI contributions are to be abolished from April 2018. Every one will now have to pay the more expensive class three voluntary contributions which currently cost over £700 a year and the cost is expected to rise significantly in the coming years. I am new poster so can't post a link but if you google abolition of class 2 contributions, you will get the information.

Bubbaclaus

Steer55 wrote: »

Class two voluntary NI contributions are to be abolished from April 2018. Every one will now have to pay the more expensive class three voluntary contributions which currently cost over £700 a year and the cost is expected to rise significantly in the coming years. I am new poster so can't post a link but if you google abolition of class 2 contributions, you will get the information.

That doesn't sound right so I had a look at the bilateral agreement. Are you sure it's a full 5 euro she's missing out on?

To give an example, if she spent 10 years working in Ireland and 40 years working in Australia she is essentially entitled to a full irish pension apportioned to 1/5th (10/50 years Irish).

As such, a 5 euro increase to Irish pensions would see her overall pension (ireland & Australia) increasing by 1 euro (1/5th).

I've simplified it a bit but that would be why you wouldn't be getting the full fiver increase when working under a bilateral agreement.

Charisteas

Steer55 wrote: »

Class two voluntary NI contributions are to be abolished from April 2018. Every one will now have to pay the more expensive class three voluntary contributions which currently cost over £700 a year and the cost is expected to rise significantly in the coming years.

Which still seems like a good deal; at current rates paying £13.90 a week now for a return of £159.55 per week at retirement age.

Bubbaclaus wrote: »

it is against the law to be contributing to 2 social security systems in the EU at the same time and subsequently doubling up on benefit claims. At best they would disregard the incorrect contributions you made and you would not get a refund for them either.

doc11 wrote: »

You can't pay into two social insurance schemes simultaneously in EU.

I've done a bit of research into this subject and I cannot find any official document that prohibits paying into the Irish PRSI and the UK National Insurance simultaneously.

Can you please provide some evidence or a link to back up your claim?

I've been living and working in Ireland full-time for the past 10 years continuously, and I've been approved (without supplying false information) to make back-payments into the UK National Insurance scheme as I was living in the UK for more than 3 years before I left for the Emerald Isle.

As is the same situation with the original poster Lumina, I am planning to make voluntary class 2 contributions in order to enable me to be able to claim both an Ireland and a UK pension when I reach retirement age.

I cannot find anything that legally prohibits me from doing this.

Lumina

Charisteas wrote: »

Which still seems like a good deal; at current rates paying £13.90 a week now for a return of £159.55 per week at retirement age.





I've done a bit of research into this subject and I cannot find any official document that prohibits paying into the Irish PRSI and the UK National Insurance simultaneously.

Can you please provide some evidence or a link to back up your claim?

I've been living and working in Ireland full-time for the past 10 years continuously, and I've been approved (without supplying false information) to make back-payments into the UK National Insurance scheme as I was living in the UK for more than 3 years before I left for the Emerald Isle.

As is the same situation with the original poster Lumina, I am planning to make voluntary class 2 contributions in order to enable me to be able to claim both an Ireland and a UK pension when I reach retirement age.

I cannot find anything that legally prohibits me from doing this.

Hey Charisteas,

Did you see the class 2 rates are being abolished and replaced with the more expensive class 3 rates next April? Still a good deal in the longterm if the state pension still exists by the time you retire.

Charisteas

Hi Lumina,

Yes I did see that. Class 3 rates, although a lot higher than class 2, still seem like a good deal in the long run; as I said in my original post -
at current rates paying ?13.90 a week now for a return of ?159.55 per week at retirement age is a good investment.

The Inland Revenue haven't exactly been crystal clear about the whole situation for those working abroad, which makes me think that there may be some sort of middle ground for the likes of us, a new plan or a new contribution class or something.

Nevertheless, whatever happens in the coming months, for now I'm happy to pay my backdated class 2 contributions, which will get me the 10 years worth of contributions, thus at least getting a foot onto the UK pension ladder.

Lumina, how did you get on with paying your class 2 contributions? Was everything smooth sailing?

Lumina

Took months to get a reply saying accepted, I then paid, then phoned a month later to find out they had received money but had not allocated it so had to tell them to spread payment across each year requiring payment.

When it came to my wife's I simply sent multiple payments for each year owed and no bother.

Easy to do with online banking.

leelee77

Myself and my husband got letters last week to say we could backpay for 6 years (mainly Class 2) so we intend to do. Seems like a great investment.

Charisteas

Yes I can also backpay for several years and they've given me a generous deadline of April 2019 but I feel that I want to get it sorted this year.

The only thing I'm skeptical about now is the earlier posters in here saying it's illegal to pay into two European national insurance schemes. I'm eager to get any clarification on that before I make my payment of a four figure sum.

Steer55

Charisteas wrote: »

Yes I can also backpay for several years and they've given me a generous deadline of April 2019 but I feel that I want to get it sorted this year.

The only thing I'm skeptical about now is the earlier posters in here saying it's illegal to pay into two European national insurance schemes. I'm eager to get any clarification on that before I make my payment of a four figure sum.

If you are unemployed in Ireland and signing for unemployment benefits you cannot pay into the UK national insurance system at the same time as you will be receiving unemployment credits in Ireland.
Otherwise it is fine.

Steer55

Came across this earlier, good news for all who will be getting the British state pension in the future and for all those who continue to pay national insurance contributions from abroad.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/pensions-retirement/news/britain-eu-reach-agreement-expats-state-pension-brexit/

Charisteas

It's probably common knowledge to most of you at this stage, but the abolition of Class 2 NI has been postponed by twelve months from April 2018 until April 2019.

So those of you making weekly direct debit payments will save 592.80 pounds.

It wouldn't really surprise me if they reversed their original decision to scrap Class 2 NI, or at least found some sort of middle ground, as it's quite a leap to raise contribution prices from 2.85 a week to 14.25 a week, especially for UK self employed earning 6,025 pounds or less per year.

SCOOP 64

I been living in Ireland for the pass 13 years, now i opted out of UK pension (if this is the right word for it ) in the 90's,so now this is paid into a private pension which i have not made any contributions too as not working in UK for the pass 13 years, now can i opt back in and start paying voluntary contributions for a UK pension ?

Mech1

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

I been living in Ireland for the pass 13 years, now i opted out of UK pension (if this is the right word for it ) in the 90's,so now this is paid into a private pension which i have not made any contributions too as not working in UK for the pass 13 years, now can i opt back in and start paying voluntary contributions for a UK pension ?

im in that same boat!

SCOOP 64

Mech1 wrote: »

im in that same boat!

Got to admit i know nothing about pensions or even if i done the right thing by opting out in the 90's, but i do know i wont get a full Irish state pension, so don't know were i stand.

MIKEKC

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Got to admit i know nothing about pensions or even if i done the right thing by opting out in the 90's, but i do know i wont get a full Irish state pension, so don't know were i stand.

If you paid P. R. S I for ten years here you will get full pension

SCOOP 64

MIKEKC wrote: »

If you paid P. R. S I for ten years here you will get full pension

Really?,don't know what ive been reading ,thought it was now 30yrs, but if its 10yrs i will be covered.

Bubbaclaus

MIKEKC wrote: »

If you paid P. R. S I for ten years here you will get full pension

No you won't.

TheBeach

10 years of prsi allows you to 'apply' for a pension. It does not get you a full pension. It gives you an entitlement to anywhere between 95 euro A week and 238 euro depending on how many contributions you have and when you first entered into insurance. (é. g. Year of first prsi payment).

Maybe Im a bit dopey here, but is this thread effectively telling me that if i (having lived in ireland all my life, now 29), went to the UK for a couple of years work (not sure how long is required), I could position myself to come back to ireland and yet make voluntary contributions to the UK state pension, and then claim both of them upon retirement?


Seems a little too good to be true? Or is it only if you were born in the UK you can get away with it?

dennispenn

Regina Doherty was on radio or TV last week talking about this with someone, she said you cannot have two pension, while someone was debating against her and said there are ppl claiming two full pensions.

SCOOP 64

Surely the Irish pension will be deducted on what your getting from the UK pension ?

TheBeach

Deleted User wrote:

Maybe Im a bit dopey here, but is this thread effectively telling me that if i (having lived in ireland all my life, now 29), went to the UK for a couple of years work (not sure how long is required), I could position myself to come back to ireland and yet make voluntary contributions to the UK state pension, and then claim both of them upon retirement?

No. Because you can't pay prsi in two countries at the same time. You could pay voluntary contributions in the UK only if you weren't paying prsi here.

mmc272

TheBeach wrote: »

Deleted User wrote:

Maybe Im a bit dopey here, but is this thread effectively telling me that if i (having lived in ireland all my life, now 29), went to the UK for a couple of years work (not sure how long is required), I could position myself to come back to ireland and yet make voluntary contributions to the UK state pension, and then claim both of them upon retirement?

No. Because you can't pay prsi in two countries at the same time. You could pay voluntary contributions in the UK only if you weren't paying prsi here.

That not true, it might be technically correct but that not what happening in reality. I worked across the border in my 20’s for a couple years and now pay Voluntary Contributions and I have been Contributing for 5 years now. One of the conditions for me to pay the Cheaper Class 2 contributions is that I must be working in the country I live in. I had to submit payslips from here to prove that I’m working here.

“You can pay Class 2 NICs if you are employed or self­employed abroad and if you satisfy the following conditions:
• you have lived in the UK for a continuous 3­year period at any
time before the period for which NICs are to be paid ­ (if you have lived or worked in another EEA country or in Turkey, time spent there may help you to meet this condition)
• before going abroad you paid a set amount in NICs for 3 years or more (this will be checked when you ask to pay Class 2 NICs)
• immediately before going abroad you were ordinarily an employed or self­employed earner in the UK”

splinter65

dennispenn wrote: »

Regina Doherty was on radio or TV last week talking about this with someone, she said you cannot have two pension, while someone was debating against her and said there are ppl claiming two full pensions.

I wouldn’t pay any attention to anything Doherty says, she’s the most badly informed DSP minister for years. She basically has zero interest in her portfolio.