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50 acre farm rent

  • 27-06-2016 10:54am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 679 ✭✭✭


    I have 50 acre of grass land I want to lease out without single farm payment. What is the current rental amount per acre annually? It's electric fenced and supply of water included.
    Tagged:


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,855 ✭✭✭I said


    Approach your local auctioneer he/she will do all for you


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,099 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    It is really dependent on area. In some area's land can be got for 100-150/acre, where dairy and grain compete it can be 300+/acre. Land could be virtually the same.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Ms Doubtfire1


    beya2009 wrote: »
    I have 50 acre of grass land I want to lease out without single farm payment. What is the current rental amount per acre annually? It's electric fenced and supply of water included.

    You can't.if you lease out the land you'll loose the single farm payment on the land


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,434 ✭✭✭fepper


    You can't.if you lease out the land you'll loose the single farm payment on the land

    SFP usually tied up in rental price


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,422 ✭✭✭Ms Doubtfire1


    agreed but you can't receive it in rent AND SFP. it's either one or the other.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,434 ✭✭✭fepper


    Your right,person who has land gets SFP only but the op should add that value to that lease per ha.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭djmc


    I thought the op was talking about letting grass only eg. selling crop of standing silage.
    AFAIK that is allowed as long as there are not cattle from outside your herd there
    there is also the option of contract rearing where cattle are moved into your herd for an agreed fixed price and term.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    Can you not let the land for 11 months, annually. And still claim the SFP?

    Maybe you cant now, but I thought this was acceptable? (And yes yes, I know some people call it armchair farming or whatever, but as far as I know, its allowed)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    You can rent grassland without the maps for sfp. Ludicrous and is rewarding land ownership rather than a farmer. 80 to 300 an acre depending on factors listed above.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,495 ✭✭✭J.O. Farmer


    Willfarman wrote: »
    You can rent grassland without the maps for sfp. Ludicrous and is rewarding land ownership rather than a farmer. 80 to 300 an acre depending on factors listed above.

    Is it acceptable then to submit the maps for sfp. I wouldn't have thought so (not saying it doesn't happen). What happens if the person renting the land has an inspection and the cattleare on that land.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Is it acceptable then to submit the maps for sfp. I wouldn't have thought so (not saying it doesn't happen). What happens if the person renting the land has an inspection and the cattleare on that land.

    Provided the leasee has a lease and there is no other cattle on the land nothing happens,

    it's a crazy set up now there is no link between single farm payment and actual farm production whatsoever.

    There is a minimum stocking rate required for the disadvantaged payment or grassland scheme as its called now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,495 ✭✭✭J.O. Farmer


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Provided the leasee has a lease and there is no other cattle on the land nothing happens,

    it's a crazy set up now there is no link between single farm payment and actual farm production whatsoever.

    There is a minimum stocking rate required for the disadvantaged payment or grassland scheme as its called now.

    I was thinking more the leaser should have the use of the land for sfp but they can't if someone else has it leased.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    I was thinking more the leaser should have the use of the land for sfp but they can't if someone else has it leased.

    Nothing in the sfp stipulates that you actually have to farm the land. Money for jam.. I'm one of the very dim witted goms renting land without maps..


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,495 ✭✭✭J.O. Farmer


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Nothing in the sfp stipulates that you actually have to farm the land. Money for jam.. I'm one of the very dim witted goms renting land without maps..

    Seems like a stupid loophole then. They mmight as well pay out on entitlements with no land so if all that's nneeded is the right to submit a map. The map is just extra work


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Seems like a stupid loophole then. They mmight as well pay out on entitlements with no land so if all that's nneeded is the right to submit a map. The map is just extra work

    If you have entitlements and can find land that hasn't been drawn on. Then you can can draw your entitlements on that land without setting foot on it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,377 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Can't understand the negative sentiment towards farmers letting land and still claiming SFP.
    In the majority of cases, those (farmers/parents) worked their arses off to maintain cattle/cow herds in order to keep food on the table whilst unknowingly building up entitlements. Some of them are now in retirement age and good luck to them. I wish I was in their position.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭zetor 4911


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Nothing in the sfp stipulates that you actually have to farm the land. Money for jam.. I'm one of the very dim witted goms renting land without maps..

    Willfarman your are wrong about this it's in the terms and Conditions of the schemes it states,

    (i) Active Farmer
    To participate in BPS and related schemes a person must be an ‘active farmer’ as set out in Article 9 (1) Regulation (EU) No 1307/2013 and related Regulations. Only farmers who fulfill the following condition will be considered an ‘active farmer’ and will be eligible to participate in
    BPS and related Schemes; i. A ‘farmer’ is defined as a natural or legal person, or a group of natural or legal persons, who exercises an agricultural activity as set out in Section 1.5 (ii).
    Section 1.5 (ii) states
    In order to be eligible for payment each land parcel must have an agricultural activity carried out on it. An ‘Agricultural Activity’ means:
    a) The production, rearing or growing of agricultural products, including harvesting, milking, breeding animals, and keeping animals for farming purposes.
    b) Maintaining an agricultural area in a state suitable for grazing or cultivation.
    So it's not the gravy train that some think.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    zetor 4911 wrote: »
    Willfarman your are wrong about this it's in the terms and Conditions of the schemes it states,

    (i) Active Farmer
    To participate in BPS and related schemes a person must be an ‘active farmer’ as set out in Article 9 (1) Regulation (EU) No 1307/2013 and related Regulations. Only farmers who fulfill the following condition will be considered an ‘active farmer’ and will be eligible to participate in
    BPS and related Schemes; i. A ‘farmer’ is defined as a natural or legal person, or a group of natural or legal persons, who exercises an agricultural activity as set out in Section 1.5 (ii).
    Section 1.5 (ii) states
    In order to be eligible for payment each land parcel must have an agricultural activity carried out on it. An ‘Agricultural Activity’ means:
    a) The production, rearing or growing of agricultural products, including harvesting, milking, breeding animals, and keeping animals for farming purposes.
    b) Maintaining an agricultural area in a state suitable for grazing or cultivation.
    So it's not the gravy train that some think.

    Sure you could farm it for one month a year and let it for 11 months. Would that not meet the conditions listed above?

    Or you could farm 100 acres and have 1 sheep, and that meets the conditions above...

    They aren't exactly strict to be fair... ;)

    I am fairly confident that it's possible to let for 11 months and still claim SFP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    Anyone I know renting out and still getting sfp do it through the person renting. The person renting the land claims for sfp and they pay it back to the person who owns the land.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    Anyone I know renting out and still getting sfp do it through the person renting. The person renting the land claims for sfp and they pay it back to the person who owns the land.

    Which can be done for long term leases, with a % of the SFP payable with the rent.

    Of course it could be done for annual leases as well, but is not necessary a far as I know.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    I am renting land without the maps. The landowner is retaining a small amount of land for farming himself but is renting out 70 per cent of it on these terms.. And sfp isn't supposed to be a bloody pension or a loyalty reward scheme.. Is it not to subsidise poor produce prices ?? and encourage environmental and good animal welfare and so on best practice in food production.. Money for fookin jam for owning land and entitlements lads!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    Anyone I know renting out and still getting sfp do it through the person renting. The person renting the land claims for sfp and they pay it back to the person who owns the land.

    Which is equally non sensical.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    Willfarman wrote: »
    I am renting land without the maps. The landowner is retaining a small amount of land for farming himself but is renting out 70 per cent of it on these terms.. And sfp isn't supposed to be a bloody pension or a loyalty reward scheme.. Is it not to subsidise poor produce prices ?? and encourage environmental and good animal welfare and so on best practice in food production.. Money for fookin jam for owning land and entitlements lads!!!

    They seem to have tightened up on entitlements since the BFP 2 years ago or whenever it was. You can't buy or trade in em as easy now.

    But there was what - 12 years of SFP?

    I think if you started farming in the last few years, then you would be right to feel a bit hard done by. But entitlements were there to be traded. So for 10+ years, that money was there to be made for everyone...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    Willfarman wrote: »
    I am renting land without the maps. The landowner is retaining a small amount of land for farming himself but is renting out 70 per cent of it on these terms.. And sfp isn't supposed to be a bloody pension or a loyalty reward scheme.. Is it not to subsidise poor produce prices ?? and encourage environmental and good animal welfare and so on best practice in food production.. Money for fookin jam for owning land and entitlements lads!!!

    I presume you are not using this land to graze your cattle on .
    Is it only legal for landowner to let this for silage or hay?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 408 ✭✭eorna


    What happens if there is an inspection??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    They seem to have tightened up on entitlements since the BFP 2 years ago or whenever it was. You can't buy or trade in em as easy now.

    But there was what - 12 years of SFP?

    I think if you started farming in the last few years, then you would be right to feel a bit hard done by. But entitlements were there to be traded. So for 10+ years, that money was there to be made for everyone...

    Active farmers are overwhelming contributing a good proportion of their single farm payment back to the local economy. The armchair farmers are just taking the proverbial!

    That's all I gotta say about that


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    cute geoge wrote: »
    I presume you are not using this land to graze your cattle on .
    Is it only legal for landowner to let this for silage or hay?

    The terms are March to November to mow or graze. And It passed the scritiny of an inspection before now. It is taken into account for nitrates..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,434 ✭✭✭fepper


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Active farmers are overwhelming contributing a good proportion of their single farm payment back to the local economy. The armchair farmers are just taking the proverbial!

    That's all I gotta say about that

    Surely you weren't expecting the use of their land for half nothing just because it had SFP on it,then you'd be taking the proverbial!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    fepper wrote: »
    Surely you weren't expecting the use of their land for half nothing just because it had SFP on it,then you'd be taking the proverbial!!

    I never said I expect a reduction in actual land lease rates. Leasing land is important and age old.
    I am just pointing out a major economic flaw.

    If sfp money isn't going to active farmers for actual production linked with good standards of works it is just welfare money with no strings attached..


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,377 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Active farmers are overwhelming contributing a good proportion of their single farm payment back to the local economy. The armchair farmers are just taking the proverbial!

    That's all I gotta say about that
    Total bollox. I know many retired farmers in their 60's/70's who like me worked their fecking arses off to become efficient farmers which happen to coincide with the reference years. They are not armchair farmers they are just old/worn out and entitled to their down time. They spend within their local economies the same as any other person of their age.
    How dare you classify them as taking the proverbial.
    You like everyone else had the opportunity to buy entitlements - did you capture the opportunity or let it slip?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,237 ✭✭✭Username John


    Willfarman wrote: »
    I never said I expect a reduction in actual land lease rates. Leasing land is important and age old.
    I am just pointing out a major economic flaw.

    If sfp money isn't going to active farmers for actual production linked with good standards of works it is just welfare money with no strings attached..

    But isn't SFP no longer linked to production? That happened in 2002... I don't see it going back to being linked with production again...
    So this production linked thing is gone, for good I think...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Which is equally non sensical.

    Why? do you think the farmer taking the land is more entitled to them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,620 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Base price wrote:
    Total bollox. I know many retired farmers in their 60's/70's who like me worked their fecking arses off to become efficient farmers which happen to coincide with the reference years. They are not armchair farmers they are just old/worn out and entitled to their down time. They spend within their local economies the same as any other person of their age. How dare you classify them as taking the proverbial. You like everyone else had the opportunity to buy entitlements - did you capture the opportunity or let it slip?

    So you did well in the 70's ,got well paid for it ,and now you are still paid for it. And collect your pension and land rent too. Nice if you can get it...
    I just think farm subsidies should be for active farmers, not landowners...
    And paid either for production or work done in environmental schemes..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    Willfarman wrote:
    The terms are March to November to mow or graze. And It passed the scritiny of an inspection before now. It is taken into account for nitrates..

    How exactly do you deal with it for nitrates... we have a similar situation with an informal lease on silage ground.. pm me by all means if you prefer...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    Willfarman wrote: »
    The terms are March to November to mow or graze. And It passed the scritiny of an inspection before now. It is taken into account for nitrates..

    How does any of that comply with this rule

    To claim the direct payment under the 2015 BPS, all of the hectares of land declared by you to support your claim (owned, rented-in and leased-in) must be subject to an agricultural activity conducted by you for a period from the beginning of the year until after 31 May 2015 or for a
    period before 31 May 2015 to 31 December 2015. Land that is declared by an applicant on thebasis that it is available to him/her on 31 May only on foot of an agreement with another partywill not be eligible for payment.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 434 ✭✭zetor 4911


    rangler1 wrote: »
    How does any of that comply with this rule

    To claim the direct payment under the 2015 BPS, all of the hectares of land declared by you to support your claim (owned, rented-in and leased-in) must be subject to an agricultural activity conducted by you for a period from the beginning of the year until after 31 May 2015 or for a
    period before 31 May 2015 to 31 December 2015. Land that is declared by an applicant on thebasis that it is available to him/her on 31 May only on foot of an agreement with another partywill not be eligible for payment.

    In addition to above even though a farmer enters into this arrangement he will be eligible to draw SPS but he won't be eligible to draw down dis advantage payments because for disadvantage payment he/she has to be carrying out a farming activity on the lands for the full year,


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    rangler1 wrote: »
    How does any of that comply with this rule

    To claim the direct payment under the 2015 BPS, all of the hectares of land declared by you to support your claim (owned, rented-in and leased-in) must be subject to an agricultural activity conducted by you for a period from the beginning of the year until after 31 May 2015 or for a
    period before 31 May 2015 to 31 December 2015. Land that is declared by an applicant on thebasis that it is available to him/her on 31 May only on foot of an agreement with another partywill not be eligible for payment.

    I don't know! Where did you dig that up rangler?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    Willfarman wrote: »
    I don't know! Where did you dig that up rangler?

    It's on page 14, 15, 16, of this.

    https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingschemesandpayments/basicpaymentscheme/2015forms/TermsConditions2015EUBasicPaymentSchemeGreeningPayment110315.pdf

    A bit ambiguous i know, but you just don't know how different inspectors interpret it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    rangler1 wrote: »
    It's on page 14, 15, 16, of this.

    https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingschemesandpayments/basicpaymentscheme/2015forms/TermsConditions2015EUBasicPaymentSchemeGreeningPayment110315.pdf

    A bit ambiguous i know, but you just don't know how different inspectors interpret it

    So he landowner should of been penalised then? It was me that was inspected.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    Why? do you think the farmer taking the land is more entitled to them?

    Yes I do.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,434 ✭✭✭fepper


    Willfarman wrote: »
    Yes I do.
    Haven't you got your own SFP on your own land,your paying him to use his land,if its not paying you to to do this,stop renting it,if it is paying to rent it,then you making a bit more money by doing so,SFP not at issue there


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Rangler is correct. But I think it only applies to the establishment year 2015.
    After that, I don't think it applies.

    For the OP, if you are in a dairying area, I would aim for about €270 +the payment returning to you. That is a long term lease.
    I would not over egg it and have the farmer throw it up owing you money. Also aim to get paid quarterly. Less risk if a payment is delayed. Also gives you cash flow.

    So many still addicted to the notion of entitlement. The bloody word should be banned. The scheme either does or does not permit you to do something. Its not what you wish it to be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    fepper wrote: »
    Haven't you got your own SFP on your own land,your paying him to use his land,if its not paying you to to do this,stop renting it,if it is paying to rent it,then you making a bit more money by doing so,SFP not at issue there

    I am referring to the overall system. I seem to have hit a few nerves with some here.

    I don't apologise for my opinion that the sfp system is not fit for purpose. There should be a direct link between actually farming or some envirmental works and receiving money from cap. Whether it be extensive low productivity so be it. But the facility of a a farmer being able to receive rent and money from Europe is a farce. Entitled like the waster on the dole all his life!!!

    Nothing wrong with land rent as I previously stated. Rent for the acre only is a fair system.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    In legal terms the payment can no longer be linked to production. It is then a subsidy or support to the farm output thus undermining international free trade.

    It is a social support. Will, you may not like that but that bridge has been crossed a few years ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,239 ✭✭✭Willfarman


    Water John wrote: »
    In legal terms the payment can no longer be linked to production. It is then a subsidy or support to the farm output thus undermining international free trade.

    It is a social support. Will, you may not like that but that bridge has been crossed a few years ago.

    Link it to actual farming activity though.. Nothing wrong with low input lowoutput extensive farming. Or even pay him to leave the land to nature. But letting a landowner sit on his hole and get money from Europe on top of his land rent is a farce.

    The active farmer keeps the rural economy alive.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    May be this year its the retired people with their fixed incomes are keeping the rural economy alive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 492 ✭✭The Cuban


    This discussion has 2 types
    The haves and the have not
    :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,808 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    The OP could also simply let it annually for 2 cuts silage. That could be on an understanding with the buyer for it to be mulitannual.
    It goes into the book as crop sold. Presume has a bit more land to keep some stock.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    Water John wrote: »
    Rangler is correct. But I think it only applies to the establishment year 2015.
    After that, I don't think it applies.

    For the OP, if you are in a dairying area, I would aim for about €270 +the payment returning to you. That is a long term lease.
    I would not over egg it and have the farmer throw it up owing you money. Also aim to get paid quarterly. Less risk if a payment is delayed. Also gives you cash flow.

    So many still addicted to the notion of entitlement. The bloody word should be banned. The scheme either does or does not permit you to do something. Its not what you wish it to be.

    IT says on the 2016 Ts and Cs to read the rules in conjunction with 2015 rules....that's the reason i quoted the 2015 rules


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ganmo


    The Cuban wrote: »
    This discussion has 2 types
    The haves and the have not
    :D

    It's a very unjust system new entrants are reliant on having parents(or whoever) that had a decent sfp.
    The armchair farmers are being paid to sit in their armchair. And the young farmers rely on the whims of politicians

    I feel sorry for the so called old young farmers who didn't qualify for the young farmer scheme last year, there's f all they can do to increase their sfp.


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