50 acre farm rent

beya2009

I have 50 acre of grass land I want to lease out without single farm payment. What is the current rental amount per acre annually? It's electric fenced and supply of water included.

I said

Approach your local auctioneer he/she will do all for you

Bass Reeves

It is really dependent on area. In some area's land can be got for 100-150/acre, where dairy and grain compete it can be 300+/acre. Land could be virtually the same.

Ms Doubtfire1

beya2009 wrote: »

I have 50 acre of grass land I want to lease out without single farm payment. What is the current rental amount per acre annually? It's electric fenced and supply of water included.

You can't.if you lease out the land you'll loose the single farm payment on the land

fepper

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

You can't.if you lease out the land you'll loose the single farm payment on the land

SFP usually tied up in rental price

Ms Doubtfire1

agreed but you can't receive it in rent AND SFP. it's either one or the other.

fepper

Your right,person who has land gets SFP only but the op should add that value to that lease per ha.

djmc

I thought the op was talking about letting grass only eg. selling crop of standing silage.
AFAIK that is allowed as long as there are not cattle from outside your herd there
there is also the option of contract rearing where cattle are moved into your herd for an agreed fixed price and term.

Username John

Can you not let the land for 11 months, annually. And still claim the SFP?

Maybe you cant now, but I thought this was acceptable? (And yes yes, I know some people call it armchair farming or whatever, but as far as I know, its allowed)

Willfarman

You can rent grassland without the maps for sfp. Ludicrous and is rewarding land ownership rather than a farmer. 80 to 300 an acre depending on factors listed above.

J.O. Farmer

Willfarman wrote: »

You can rent grassland without the maps for sfp. Ludicrous and is rewarding land ownership rather than a farmer. 80 to 300 an acre depending on factors listed above.

Is it acceptable then to submit the maps for sfp. I wouldn't have thought so (not saying it doesn't happen). What happens if the person renting the land has an inspection and the cattleare on that land.

Willfarman

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Is it acceptable then to submit the maps for sfp. I wouldn't have thought so (not saying it doesn't happen). What happens if the person renting the land has an inspection and the cattleare on that land.

Provided the leasee has a lease and there is no other cattle on the land nothing happens,

it's a crazy set up now there is no link between single farm payment and actual farm production whatsoever.

There is a minimum stocking rate required for the disadvantaged payment or grassland scheme as its called now.

J.O. Farmer

Willfarman wrote: »

Provided the leasee has a lease and there is no other cattle on the land nothing happens,

it's a crazy set up now there is no link between single farm payment and actual farm production whatsoever.

There is a minimum stocking rate required for the disadvantaged payment or grassland scheme as its called now.

I was thinking more the leaser should have the use of the land for sfp but they can't if someone else has it leased.

Willfarman

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

I was thinking more the leaser should have the use of the land for sfp but they can't if someone else has it leased.

Nothing in the sfp stipulates that you actually have to farm the land. Money for jam.. I'm one of the very dim witted goms renting land without maps..

J.O. Farmer

Willfarman wrote: »

Nothing in the sfp stipulates that you actually have to farm the land. Money for jam.. I'm one of the very dim witted goms renting land without maps..

Seems like a stupid loophole then. They mmight as well pay out on entitlements with no land so if all that's nneeded is the right to submit a map. The map is just extra work

Willfarman

J.O. Farmer wrote: »

Seems like a stupid loophole then. They mmight as well pay out on entitlements with no land so if all that's nneeded is the right to submit a map. The map is just extra work

If you have entitlements and can find land that hasn't been drawn on. Then you can can draw your entitlements on that land without setting foot on it.

Base price

Can't understand the negative sentiment towards farmers letting land and still claiming SFP.
In the majority of cases, those (farmers/parents) worked their arses off to maintain cattle/cow herds in order to keep food on the table whilst unknowingly building up entitlements. Some of them are now in retirement age and good luck to them. I wish I was in their position.

zetor 4911

Willfarman wrote: »

Nothing in the sfp stipulates that you actually have to farm the land. Money for jam.. I'm one of the very dim witted goms renting land without maps..

Willfarman your are wrong about this it's in the terms and Conditions of the schemes it states,

(i) Active Farmer
To participate in BPS and related schemes a person must be an ‘active farmer’ as set out in Article 9 (1) Regulation (EU) No 1307/2013 and related Regulations. Only farmers who fulfill the following condition will be considered an ‘active farmer’ and will be eligible to participate in
BPS and related Schemes; i. A ‘farmer’ is defined as a natural or legal person, or a group of natural or legal persons, who exercises an agricultural activity as set out in Section 1.5 (ii).
Section 1.5 (ii) states
In order to be eligible for payment each land parcel must have an agricultural activity carried out on it. An ‘Agricultural Activity’ means:
a) The production, rearing or growing of agricultural products, including harvesting, milking, breeding animals, and keeping animals for farming purposes.
b) Maintaining an agricultural area in a state suitable for grazing or cultivation.
So it's not the gravy train that some think.

Username John

zetor 4911 wrote: »

Willfarman your are wrong about this it's in the terms and Conditions of the schemes it states,

(i) Active Farmer
To participate in BPS and related schemes a person must be an ‘active farmer’ as set out in Article 9 (1) Regulation (EU) No 1307/2013 and related Regulations. Only farmers who fulfill the following condition will be considered an ‘active farmer’ and will be eligible to participate in
BPS and related Schemes; i. A ‘farmer’ is defined as a natural or legal person, or a group of natural or legal persons, who exercises an agricultural activity as set out in Section 1.5 (ii).
Section 1.5 (ii) states
In order to be eligible for payment each land parcel must have an agricultural activity carried out on it. An ‘Agricultural Activity’ means:
a) The production, rearing or growing of agricultural products, including harvesting, milking, breeding animals, and keeping animals for farming purposes.
b) Maintaining an agricultural area in a state suitable for grazing or cultivation.
So it's not the gravy train that some think.

Sure you could farm it for one month a year and let it for 11 months. Would that not meet the conditions listed above?

Or you could farm 100 acres and have 1 sheep, and that meets the conditions above...

They aren't exactly strict to be fair...

I am fairly confident that it's possible to let for 11 months and still claim SFP.

Sam Kade

Anyone I know renting out and still getting sfp do it through the person renting. The person renting the land claims for sfp and they pay it back to the person who owns the land.

Username John

Sam Kade wrote: »

Anyone I know renting out and still getting sfp do it through the person renting. The person renting the land claims for sfp and they pay it back to the person who owns the land.

Which can be done for long term leases, with a % of the SFP payable with the rent.

Of course it could be done for annual leases as well, but is not necessary a far as I know.

Willfarman

I am renting land without the maps. The landowner is retaining a small amount of land for farming himself but is renting out 70 per cent of it on these terms.. And sfp isn't supposed to be a bloody pension or a loyalty reward scheme.. Is it not to subsidise poor produce prices ?? and encourage environmental and good animal welfare and so on best practice in food production.. Money for fookin jam for owning land and entitlements lads!!!

Willfarman

Sam Kade wrote: »

Anyone I know renting out and still getting sfp do it through the person renting. The person renting the land claims for sfp and they pay it back to the person who owns the land.

Which is equally non sensical.

Username John

Willfarman wrote: »

I am renting land without the maps. The landowner is retaining a small amount of land for farming himself but is renting out 70 per cent of it on these terms.. And sfp isn't supposed to be a bloody pension or a loyalty reward scheme.. Is it not to subsidise poor produce prices ?? and encourage environmental and good animal welfare and so on best practice in food production.. Money for fookin jam for owning land and entitlements lads!!!

They seem to have tightened up on entitlements since the BFP 2 years ago or whenever it was. You can't buy or trade in em as easy now.

But there was what - 12 years of SFP?

I think if you started farming in the last few years, then you would be right to feel a bit hard done by. But entitlements were there to be traded. So for 10+ years, that money was there to be made for everyone...

cute geoge

Willfarman wrote: »

I am renting land without the maps. The landowner is retaining a small amount of land for farming himself but is renting out 70 per cent of it on these terms.. And sfp isn't supposed to be a bloody pension or a loyalty reward scheme.. Is it not to subsidise poor produce prices ?? and encourage environmental and good animal welfare and so on best practice in food production.. Money for fookin jam for owning land and entitlements lads!!!

I presume you are not using this land to graze your cattle on .
Is it only legal for landowner to let this for silage or hay?

eorna

What happens if there is an inspection??

Willfarman

Username John wrote: »

They seem to have tightened up on entitlements since the BFP 2 years ago or whenever it was. You can't buy or trade in em as easy now.

But there was what - 12 years of SFP?

I think if you started farming in the last few years, then you would be right to feel a bit hard done by. But entitlements were there to be traded. So for 10+ years, that money was there to be made for everyone...

Active farmers are overwhelming contributing a good proportion of their single farm payment back to the local economy. The armchair farmers are just taking the proverbial!

That's all I gotta say about that

Willfarman

cute geoge wrote: »

I presume you are not using this land to graze your cattle on .
Is it only legal for landowner to let this for silage or hay?

The terms are March to November to mow or graze. And It passed the scritiny of an inspection before now. It is taken into account for nitrates..

fepper

Willfarman wrote: »

Active farmers are overwhelming contributing a good proportion of their single farm payment back to the local economy. The armchair farmers are just taking the proverbial!

That's all I gotta say about that

Surely you weren't expecting the use of their land for half nothing just because it had SFP on it,then you'd be taking the proverbial!!

Willfarman

fepper wrote: »

Surely you weren't expecting the use of their land for half nothing just because it had SFP on it,then you'd be taking the proverbial!!

I never said I expect a reduction in actual land lease rates. Leasing land is important and age old.
I am just pointing out a major economic flaw.

If sfp money isn't going to active farmers for actual production linked with good standards of works it is just welfare money with no strings attached..

Base price

Willfarman wrote: »

Active farmers are overwhelming contributing a good proportion of their single farm payment back to the local economy. The armchair farmers are just taking the proverbial!

That's all I gotta say about that

Total bollox. I know many retired farmers in their 60's/70's who like me worked their fecking arses off to become efficient farmers which happen to coincide with the reference years. They are not armchair farmers they are just old/worn out and entitled to their down time. They spend within their local economies the same as any other person of their age.
How dare you classify them as taking the proverbial.
You like everyone else had the opportunity to buy entitlements - did you capture the opportunity or let it slip?

Username John

Willfarman wrote: »

I never said I expect a reduction in actual land lease rates. Leasing land is important and age old.
I am just pointing out a major economic flaw.

If sfp money isn't going to active farmers for actual production linked with good standards of works it is just welfare money with no strings attached..

But isn't SFP no longer linked to production? That happened in 2002... I don't see it going back to being linked with production again...
So this production linked thing is gone, for good I think...

Sam Kade

Willfarman wrote: »

Which is equally non sensical.

Why? do you think the farmer taking the land is more entitled to them?

Markcheese

Base price wrote:

Total bollox. I know many retired farmers in their 60's/70's who like me worked their fecking arses off to become efficient farmers which happen to coincide with the reference years. They are not armchair farmers they are just old/worn out and entitled to their down time. They spend within their local economies the same as any other person of their age. How dare you classify them as taking the proverbial. You like everyone else had the opportunity to buy entitlements - did you capture the opportunity or let it slip?

So you did well in the 70's ,got well paid for it ,and now you are still paid for it. And collect your pension and land rent too. Nice if you can get it...
I just think farm subsidies should be for active farmers, not landowners...
And paid either for production or work done in environmental schemes..

kowtow

Willfarman wrote:

The terms are March to November to mow or graze. And It passed the scritiny of an inspection before now. It is taken into account for nitrates..

How exactly do you deal with it for nitrates... we have a similar situation with an informal lease on silage ground.. pm me by all means if you prefer...

rangler1

Willfarman wrote: »

The terms are March to November to mow or graze. And It passed the scritiny of an inspection before now. It is taken into account for nitrates..

How does any of that comply with this rule

To claim the direct payment under the 2015 BPS, all of the hectares of land declared by you to support your claim (owned, rented-in and leased-in) must be subject to an agricultural activity conducted by you for a period from the beginning of the year until after 31 May 2015 or for a
period before 31 May 2015 to 31 December 2015. Land that is declared by an applicant on thebasis that it is available to him/her on 31 May only on foot of an agreement with another partywill not be eligible for payment.

zetor 4911

rangler1 wrote: »

How does any of that comply with this rule

To claim the direct payment under the 2015 BPS, all of the hectares of land declared by you to support your claim (owned, rented-in and leased-in) must be subject to an agricultural activity conducted by you for a period from the beginning of the year until after 31 May 2015 or for a
period before 31 May 2015 to 31 December 2015. Land that is declared by an applicant on thebasis that it is available to him/her on 31 May only on foot of an agreement with another partywill not be eligible for payment.

In addition to above even though a farmer enters into this arrangement he will be eligible to draw SPS but he won't be eligible to draw down dis advantage payments because for disadvantage payment he/she has to be carrying out a farming activity on the lands for the full year,

Willfarman

rangler1 wrote: »

How does any of that comply with this rule

To claim the direct payment under the 2015 BPS, all of the hectares of land declared by you to support your claim (owned, rented-in and leased-in) must be subject to an agricultural activity conducted by you for a period from the beginning of the year until after 31 May 2015 or for a
period before 31 May 2015 to 31 December 2015. Land that is declared by an applicant on thebasis that it is available to him/her on 31 May only on foot of an agreement with another partywill not be eligible for payment.

I don't know! Where did you dig that up rangler?

rangler1

Willfarman wrote: »

I don't know! Where did you dig that up rangler?

It's on page 14, 15, 16, of this.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingschemesandpayments/basicpaymentscheme/2015forms/TermsConditions2015EUBasicPaymentSchemeGreeningPayment110315.pdf

A bit ambiguous i know, but you just don't know how different inspectors interpret it

Willfarman

rangler1 wrote: »

It's on page 14, 15, 16, of this.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingschemesandpayments/basicpaymentscheme/2015forms/TermsConditions2015EUBasicPaymentSchemeGreeningPayment110315.pdf

A bit ambiguous i know, but you just don't know how different inspectors interpret it

So he landowner should of been penalised then? It was me that was inspected.

Willfarman

Sam Kade wrote: »

Why? do you think the farmer taking the land is more entitled to them?

Yes I do.

fepper

Willfarman wrote: »

Yes I do.

Haven't you got your own SFP on your own land,your paying him to use his land,if its not paying you to to do this,stop renting it,if it is paying to rent it,then you making a bit more money by doing so,SFP not at issue there

Water John

Rangler is correct. But I think it only applies to the establishment year 2015.
After that, I don't think it applies.

For the OP, if you are in a dairying area, I would aim for about €270 +the payment returning to you. That is a long term lease.
I would not over egg it and have the farmer throw it up owing you money. Also aim to get paid quarterly. Less risk if a payment is delayed. Also gives you cash flow.

So many still addicted to the notion of entitlement. The bloody word should be banned. The scheme either does or does not permit you to do something. Its not what you wish it to be.

Willfarman

fepper wrote: »

Haven't you got your own SFP on your own land,your paying him to use his land,if its not paying you to to do this,stop renting it,if it is paying to rent it,then you making a bit more money by doing so,SFP not at issue there

I am referring to the overall system. I seem to have hit a few nerves with some here.

I don't apologise for my opinion that the sfp system is not fit for purpose. There should be a direct link between actually farming or some envirmental works and receiving money from cap. Whether it be extensive low productivity so be it. But the facility of a a farmer being able to receive rent and money from Europe is a farce. Entitled like the waster on the dole all his life!!!

Nothing wrong with land rent as I previously stated. Rent for the acre only is a fair system.

Water John

In legal terms the payment can no longer be linked to production. It is then a subsidy or support to the farm output thus undermining international free trade.

It is a social support. Will, you may not like that but that bridge has been crossed a few years ago.

Willfarman

Water John wrote: »

In legal terms the payment can no longer be linked to production. It is then a subsidy or support to the farm output thus undermining international free trade.

It is a social support. Will, you may not like that but that bridge has been crossed a few years ago.

Link it to actual farming activity though.. Nothing wrong with low input lowoutput extensive farming. Or even pay him to leave the land to nature. But letting a landowner sit on his hole and get money from Europe on top of his land rent is a farce.

The active farmer keeps the rural economy alive.

Water John

May be this year its the retired people with their fixed incomes are keeping the rural economy alive.

The Cuban

This discussion has 2 types
The haves and the have not

Water John

The OP could also simply let it annually for 2 cuts silage. That could be on an understanding with the buyer for it to be mulitannual.
It goes into the book as crop sold. Presume has a bit more land to keep some stock.

rangler1

Water John wrote: »

Rangler is correct. But I think it only applies to the establishment year 2015.
After that, I don't think it applies.

For the OP, if you are in a dairying area, I would aim for about €270 +the payment returning to you. That is a long term lease.
I would not over egg it and have the farmer throw it up owing you money. Also aim to get paid quarterly. Less risk if a payment is delayed. Also gives you cash flow.

So many still addicted to the notion of entitlement. The bloody word should be banned. The scheme either does or does not permit you to do something. Its not what you wish it to be.

IT says on the 2016 Ts and Cs to read the rules in conjunction with 2015 rules....that's the reason i quoted the 2015 rules

ganmo

The Cuban wrote: »

This discussion has 2 types
The haves and the have not

It's a very unjust system new entrants are reliant on having parents(or whoever) that had a decent sfp.
The armchair farmers are being paid to sit in their armchair. And the young farmers rely on the whims of politicians

I feel sorry for the so called old young farmers who didn't qualify for the young farmer scheme last year, there's f all they can do to increase their sfp.