50 acre farm rent

Username John

Willfarman wrote: »

I never said I expect a reduction in actual land lease rates. Leasing land is important and age old.
I am just pointing out a major economic flaw.

If sfp money isn't going to active farmers for actual production linked with good standards of works it is just welfare money with no strings attached..

But isn't SFP no longer linked to production? That happened in 2002... I don't see it going back to being linked with production again...
So this production linked thing is gone, for good I think...

Sam Kade

Willfarman wrote: »

Which is equally non sensical.

Why? do you think the farmer taking the land is more entitled to them?

Markcheese

Base price wrote:

Total bollox. I know many retired farmers in their 60's/70's who like me worked their fecking arses off to become efficient farmers which happen to coincide with the reference years. They are not armchair farmers they are just old/worn out and entitled to their down time. They spend within their local economies the same as any other person of their age. How dare you classify them as taking the proverbial. You like everyone else had the opportunity to buy entitlements - did you capture the opportunity or let it slip?

So you did well in the 70's ,got well paid for it ,and now you are still paid for it. And collect your pension and land rent too. Nice if you can get it...
I just think farm subsidies should be for active farmers, not landowners...
And paid either for production or work done in environmental schemes..

kowtow

Willfarman wrote:

The terms are March to November to mow or graze. And It passed the scritiny of an inspection before now. It is taken into account for nitrates..

How exactly do you deal with it for nitrates... we have a similar situation with an informal lease on silage ground.. pm me by all means if you prefer...

rangler1

Willfarman wrote: »

The terms are March to November to mow or graze. And It passed the scritiny of an inspection before now. It is taken into account for nitrates..

How does any of that comply with this rule

To claim the direct payment under the 2015 BPS, all of the hectares of land declared by you to support your claim (owned, rented-in and leased-in) must be subject to an agricultural activity conducted by you for a period from the beginning of the year until after 31 May 2015 or for a
period before 31 May 2015 to 31 December 2015. Land that is declared by an applicant on thebasis that it is available to him/her on 31 May only on foot of an agreement with another partywill not be eligible for payment.

zetor 4911

rangler1 wrote: »

How does any of that comply with this rule

To claim the direct payment under the 2015 BPS, all of the hectares of land declared by you to support your claim (owned, rented-in and leased-in) must be subject to an agricultural activity conducted by you for a period from the beginning of the year until after 31 May 2015 or for a
period before 31 May 2015 to 31 December 2015. Land that is declared by an applicant on thebasis that it is available to him/her on 31 May only on foot of an agreement with another partywill not be eligible for payment.

In addition to above even though a farmer enters into this arrangement he will be eligible to draw SPS but he won't be eligible to draw down dis advantage payments because for disadvantage payment he/she has to be carrying out a farming activity on the lands for the full year,

Willfarman

rangler1 wrote: »

How does any of that comply with this rule

To claim the direct payment under the 2015 BPS, all of the hectares of land declared by you to support your claim (owned, rented-in and leased-in) must be subject to an agricultural activity conducted by you for a period from the beginning of the year until after 31 May 2015 or for a
period before 31 May 2015 to 31 December 2015. Land that is declared by an applicant on thebasis that it is available to him/her on 31 May only on foot of an agreement with another partywill not be eligible for payment.

I don't know! Where did you dig that up rangler?

rangler1

Willfarman wrote: »

I don't know! Where did you dig that up rangler?

It's on page 14, 15, 16, of this.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingschemesandpayments/basicpaymentscheme/2015forms/TermsConditions2015EUBasicPaymentSchemeGreeningPayment110315.pdf

A bit ambiguous i know, but you just don't know how different inspectors interpret it

Willfarman

rangler1 wrote: »

It's on page 14, 15, 16, of this.

https://www.agriculture.gov.ie/media/migration/farmingschemesandpayments/basicpaymentscheme/2015forms/TermsConditions2015EUBasicPaymentSchemeGreeningPayment110315.pdf

A bit ambiguous i know, but you just don't know how different inspectors interpret it

So he landowner should of been penalised then? It was me that was inspected.

Willfarman

Sam Kade wrote: »

Why? do you think the farmer taking the land is more entitled to them?

Yes I do.

fepper

Willfarman wrote: »

Yes I do.

Haven't you got your own SFP on your own land,your paying him to use his land,if its not paying you to to do this,stop renting it,if it is paying to rent it,then you making a bit more money by doing so,SFP not at issue there

Water John

Rangler is correct. But I think it only applies to the establishment year 2015.
After that, I don't think it applies.

For the OP, if you are in a dairying area, I would aim for about €270 +the payment returning to you. That is a long term lease.
I would not over egg it and have the farmer throw it up owing you money. Also aim to get paid quarterly. Less risk if a payment is delayed. Also gives you cash flow.

So many still addicted to the notion of entitlement. The bloody word should be banned. The scheme either does or does not permit you to do something. Its not what you wish it to be.

Willfarman

fepper wrote: »

Haven't you got your own SFP on your own land,your paying him to use his land,if its not paying you to to do this,stop renting it,if it is paying to rent it,then you making a bit more money by doing so,SFP not at issue there

I am referring to the overall system. I seem to have hit a few nerves with some here.

I don't apologise for my opinion that the sfp system is not fit for purpose. There should be a direct link between actually farming or some envirmental works and receiving money from cap. Whether it be extensive low productivity so be it. But the facility of a a farmer being able to receive rent and money from Europe is a farce. Entitled like the waster on the dole all his life!!!

Nothing wrong with land rent as I previously stated. Rent for the acre only is a fair system.

Water John

In legal terms the payment can no longer be linked to production. It is then a subsidy or support to the farm output thus undermining international free trade.

It is a social support. Will, you may not like that but that bridge has been crossed a few years ago.

Willfarman

Water John wrote: »

In legal terms the payment can no longer be linked to production. It is then a subsidy or support to the farm output thus undermining international free trade.

It is a social support. Will, you may not like that but that bridge has been crossed a few years ago.

Link it to actual farming activity though.. Nothing wrong with low input lowoutput extensive farming. Or even pay him to leave the land to nature. But letting a landowner sit on his hole and get money from Europe on top of his land rent is a farce.

The active farmer keeps the rural economy alive.

Water John

May be this year its the retired people with their fixed incomes are keeping the rural economy alive.

The Cuban

This discussion has 2 types
The haves and the have not

Water John

The OP could also simply let it annually for 2 cuts silage. That could be on an understanding with the buyer for it to be mulitannual.
It goes into the book as crop sold. Presume has a bit more land to keep some stock.

rangler1

Water John wrote: »

Rangler is correct. But I think it only applies to the establishment year 2015.
After that, I don't think it applies.

For the OP, if you are in a dairying area, I would aim for about €270 +the payment returning to you. That is a long term lease.
I would not over egg it and have the farmer throw it up owing you money. Also aim to get paid quarterly. Less risk if a payment is delayed. Also gives you cash flow.

So many still addicted to the notion of entitlement. The bloody word should be banned. The scheme either does or does not permit you to do something. Its not what you wish it to be.

IT says on the 2016 Ts and Cs to read the rules in conjunction with 2015 rules....that's the reason i quoted the 2015 rules

ganmo

The Cuban wrote: »

This discussion has 2 types
The haves and the have not

It's a very unjust system new entrants are reliant on having parents(or whoever) that had a decent sfp.
The armchair farmers are being paid to sit in their armchair. And the young farmers rely on the whims of politicians

I feel sorry for the so called old young farmers who didn't qualify for the young farmer scheme last year, there's f all they can do to increase their sfp.

J.O. Farmer

It shouldn't be possible to claim entitlements on land rented out on an 11 month or 6 month lease. What should happen is that the owner of the entitlements should lease out those entitlements at the market rate either with the land or without. Land of similar quality withmore valuable entitlements attached should command a higher rent. All above board and doesn't have the appearance of retired farmers getting a pension top up.

kowtow

J.O. Farmer wrote:

It shouldn't be possible to claim entitlements on land rented out on an 11 month or 6 month lease. What should happen is that the owner of the entitlements should lease out those entitlements at the market rate either with the land or without. Land of similar quality withmore valuable entitlements attached should command a higher rent. All above board and doesn't have the appearance of retired farmers getting a pension top up.

Thinking along those lines wouldn't it be better if there was a transparent pool of entitlements.. a public auction place if you like.... and anyone renting land had to dump the entitlements into the pool for the year in which it was rented? That way the value wouldn't get caught up in the rent so easily. Could tie it to the registration of the lease which they are pushing towards anyway.. that way it should be easy to rent in entitlements and/or land and the market would be more liquid for both.

Landlords shouldn't suffer a risk of losing entitlements either if structured properly.

Willfarman

Landlords should lose entitlements though. The man working the sprong should get a twist from the eu not his lordship!

Water John

You're carrying a bit of a chip there, Will.
Fella over the road from me drawing €80K. It's a bit immoral but I am not going to get my knickers in a twist over it.

Willfarman

If he's farming the land in any form that wouldn't bother me in the slightest.. A place near here drawing over 100k but a lot of people in the locality and beyond getting a twist out of it..

J.O. Farmer

Willfarman wrote: »

Landlords should lose entitlements though. The man working the sprong should get a twist from the eu not his lordship!

Once they decoupled payments it was always going to be a case of being lucky enough to have farmed in the reference years. The only way around it is to recouple and that's not going to happen.

Base price

Willfarman wrote: »

Landlords should lose entitlements though. The man working the sprong should get a twist from the eu not his lordship!

Willfarman wrote: »

If he's farming the land in any form that wouldn't bother me in the slightest.. A place near here drawing over 100k but a lot of people in the locality and beyond getting a twist out of it..

In fairness not many are drawing entitlements of €100k. The few retired farmers that I know of around me are getting €3k or €4k at best. In all but one case they keep a few cows/calves around the house and rent out the rest of their land/outfarms. They are all bachelors in their late 60's + and in two cases they really shouldn't be keeping sucklers as they are getting too old/frail to deal with cows calving.
The system is as it is and I can understand that you don't like it but you just have to take it on the chin the same way as we don't like seeing the value of our SFP devaluing but accept that while we loose others will gain.

Willfarman

Ah Im taking it on the chin.. And I kl try not take to the drink base!

But jaysis a irish man has to be let rant and rave. It's not North Korea!