Tractor trailer hitch question

gerryirl

I'm after buying a 3 axle cattle trailer. I hadn't plannned on a 3 axle as its only going to be used on the tractor but a great second hand one came up for sake and I knew its history so I bought . Here's my problem . It has 13 inch rims on it so when I put it on the tractor the balance is wrong so all the weight is on the 2 back axles mostly the back one . Is there any device out there that can be bought that I could lower the hitch by a couple of inches . I've seen ones that go on the arms but that's not great job .
Thanks in advance

blue5000

What I do is turn a clevis hitch upside down and put a screw in ball hitch on the long straight drawbar. This gives me about a 4 inch drop. Sorry don't have any photos.

davidk1394

blue5000 wrote: »

What I do is turn a clevis hitch upside down and put a screw in ball hitch on the long straight drawbar. This gives me about a 4 inch drop. Sorry don't have any photos.

That's what we do. Works a treat. I'll stick up a picture later

rangler1

Considering that those trailers are now illegal behind a jeep, there'll be a good few looking for that information.
....that's if the guards enforce the laws,
presume you referrring to a fourteen foot trailer

Reggie.

rangler1 wrote: »

Considering that those trailers are now illegal behind a jeep, there'll be a good few looking for that information.
....that's if the guards enforce the laws,
presume you referrring to a fourteen foot trailer

Wonder would you pick them up handy 2nd hand now that they are illegal for jeeps as you say

tractorporn

Reggie. wrote: »

Wonder would you pick them up handy 2nd hand now that they are illegal for jeeps as you say

I passed Regan's in Frenchpark the other day and they had a world of 2nd hand trailers outside a couple of fresh looking 3 axles, a local man told me that they had traded in a good few against new trailers when the new regs came in.

Reggie.

tractorporn wrote: »

I passed Regan's in Frenchpark the other day and they had a world of 2nd hand trailers outside a couple of fresh looking 3 axles, a local man told me that they had traded in a good few against new trailers when the new regs came in.

Id be wary of regans as I know where the stuff comes from in England and it's not always good stuff.

davidk1394

What are the new regulations

rangler1

davidk1394 wrote: »

What are the new regulations

Old regs really, just not being enfoced, you're not supposed to tow more than the specified towing weight for your jeep. Most max jeep towing weights are around 3 tonne, 14ft trailers carry more than 3 ton and when you add in the weight of the trailer its illegal.

paddysdream

rangler1 wrote: »

Old regs really, just not being enfoced, you're not supposed to tow more than the specified towing weight for your jeep. Most max jeep towing weights are around 3 tonne, 14ft trailers carry more than 3 ton and when you add in the weight of the trailer its illegal.

Don't think you are correct on that or otherwise all the 2 axle IF trailers would be illegal as well as both are plated for 3.5 tonne.Specs(plating) for a 2 or 3 axle IF trailer whether 12 or 14 ft are identical as far as I am aware.Number of axles is totally irrelevant.
Few things come into play when towing a livestock box including; your licence,towing vehicle plating for max permissible weight,towing capacity and gross train weight,plus trailer plating.
Still no bother towing a 14ft box as long as you keep within the guidelines.
Posted the following before and is as I understand it;



Does BE licence not allow you up to 7 tonne gross ie vehicle,trailer and load depending on I would suppose trailer gross at 3.5 tonne or less if plated so(IW etc) plus weight of towing vehicle?
Had a quick look at RSA site and the following is what I understand it to be.
BE licence covers vehicle fully landen to DGVW plus its towing capacity.
Example
Toyota Landcruiser DGVW is 2850 kg(on tax book) or 2750 (DOE cert) or 2850kg (previous DOE cert) or even 2730(another DOE cert).Clear so far?
Thats van,fuel cargo,driver passenger etc.
Towing capacity is 3000kg as far as I know.
Sheep box here(12x6 2 axle Ifor Williams with decks)is plated to 3500kg and weights about 1100kg approx.

So; that gives you 2850 kg max for van plus 3000kg max for trailer or a total train weight of 5850kg.A LWB Pajero would rise this to 6350 assuming its DGVW was the same as the Toyota.Just looked and Pajero GVW is 3030kg plus 3500kg towing so total of 6530kg.
All as I understand it,allowable on a BE licence.
Apologies if wrong.

rangler1

paddysdream wrote: »

Don't think you are correct on that or otherwise all the 2 axle IF trailers would be illegal as well as both are plated for 3.5 tonne.Specs(plating) for a 2 or 3 axle IF trailer whether 12 or 14 ft are identical as far as I am aware.Number of axles is totally irrelevant.
Few things come into play when towing a livestock box including; your licence,towing vehicle plating for max permissible weight,towing capacity and gross train weight,plus trailer plating.
Still no bother towing a 14ft box as long as you keep within the guidelines.
Posted the following before and is as I understand it;



Does BE licence not allow you up to 7 tonne gross ie vehicle,trailer and load depending on I would suppose trailer gross at 3.5 tonne or less if plated so(IW etc) plus weight of towing vehicle?
Had a quick look at RSA site and the following is what I understand it to be.
BE licence covers vehicle fully landen to DGVW plus its towing capacity.
Example
Toyota Landcruiser DGVW is 2850 kg(on tax book) or 2750 (DOE cert) or 2850kg (previous DOE cert) or even 2730(another DOE cert).Clear so far?
Thats van,fuel cargo,driver passenger etc.
Towing capacity is 3000kg as far as I know.
Sheep box here(12x6 2 axle Ifor Williams with decks)is plated to 3500kg and weights about 1100kg approx.

So; that gives you 2850 kg max for van plus 3000kg max for trailer or a total train weight of 5850kg.A LWB Pajero would rise this to 6350 assuming its DGVW was the same as the Toyota.Just looked and Pajero GVW is 3030kg plus 3500kg towing so total of 6530kg.
All as I understand it,allowable on a BE licence.
Apologies if wrong.

You have to adhere to the towing capacity of the jeep which as you say is 3000kg, so if you put 4 500kg cattle in your trailer, you are towing more than the max towing weight for the jeep when you add in the 1100kg weight of the trailer.
As i say it's not being enforced anyway so it's a bit irrelevant.

Muckit

rangler1 wrote: »

Old regs really, just not being enfoced, you're not supposed to tow more than the specified towing weight for your jeep. Most max jeep towing weights are around 3 tonne, 14ft trailers carry more than 3 ton and when you add in the weight of the trailer its illegal.

Two lads near here hauling 12 and 14's..... behind berlingos!!! I kid you not.

Muckit

Reggie. wrote: »

Id be wary of regans as I know where the stuff comes from in England and it's not always good stuff.

Are the army doing under cover surveillance now for the gardai?

fastrac94

rangler1 wrote: »

Considering that those trailers are now illegal behind a jeep, there'll be a good few looking for that information.
....that's if the guards enforce the laws,
presume you referrring to a fourteen foot trailer

Thats some statement to make,irrelevant if trailer had 6 axles,still not illegal to pull with jeep,its drivers responsibility to load correctly..

paddysdream

rangler1 wrote: »

You have to adhere to the towing capacity of the jeep which as you say is 3000kg, so if you put 4 500kg cattle in your trailer, you are towing more than the max towing weight for the jeep when you add in the 1100kg weight of the trailer.
As i say it's not being enforced anyway so it's a bit irrelevant.

Then to stay within the law just put 3 cattle in the trailer

Muckit

14's I'd say are probably legal weightwise with 2 decks of sheep?

paddysdream

Muckit wrote: »

14's I'd say are probably legal weightwise with 2 decks of sheep?

All depends on how many lambs you put on board.45 lambs at 40 kgs puts a 12 IF over the limit for a Landcruiser as trailer is about 1100kg .60 40kg plus lambs on a 14ft. would prob. be overweight for even LWB pajero etc with 3500kg plated towing weight

Reggie.

Muckit wrote: »

Are the army doing under cover surveillance now for the gardai?

Nope they get alot of stuff from the wessex sale. It is held in the relatives yard

Nekarsulm

davidk1394 wrote: »

What are the new regulations

https://youtu.be/HhHyUMSn31s

barnaman

Would not chance with trailers and new regs. Lad in Tipp lost the licence for 2 years this week for pulling an illegal trailer.

barnaman

For Ops benefit... messing with towbars etc illegal unless you get it certified afterwards etc. "Mr Cahalane modified it to install a tow bar to allow it to be pulled by a tractor. The kingpin on the trailer had been removed, and there was no certificate to say what weight the new towbar could tow."

Reggie.

barnaman wrote: »

For Ops benefit... messing with towbars etc illegal unless you get it certified afterwards etc. "Mr Cahalane modified it to install a tow bar to allow it to be pulled by a tractor. The kingpin on the trailer had been removed, and there was no certificate to say what weight the new towbar could tow."

In your opinion Would that be the case if you say removed the Bradley hitch off a trailer and put a tractor towing eye on and Using the same bolts and holes the Bradley used. It's the Bradley hitch that has the limit on it not the trailer chassis. If that was removed as above I wonder would you be ok to carry more?

barnaman

I would say yes Reggie it would be. Trailer as a whole is certified. You take off the hitch it is certified with. You are then modifying it/building/contructing it new trailer or hitch could be looked at both ways Who is certfiying the eye you put on? Are you qualified to do welding etc. Thats way Guards would look at it.

http://www.mayonews.ie/news/27702-mayo-gardai-accused-of-targeting-agri-contractors

Thats the court case. Covered in this weeks journal and spoke to a lad from up that part of the world. The more serious charges of licence, tacho etc were dimissed by judge as area was unclear.

Nekarsulm

Sounds like he fitted a straight drawbar in place of the fifth wheel kingpin to an artic trailer.

Bass Reeves

Muckit wrote: »

Two lads near here hauling 12 and 14's..... behind berlingos!!! I kid you not.

Them Berlingo's are great van's.

Towing is going to be a minefield for lads. You will get your ass kicked if you are in the wrong. Remember there is no point in having too big a trailer as the extra weight counts against you. The case in Tipp was an eye opener last week. The lad was put off the road for 2 years for an illegal hitch:eek:. That is a fairly severe penelty. It will only take the guards to stop outside marts once or twice to really enforce the regs. If it goes before that judge lads will be off the road.

Nekarsulm

We had a Judge in Cavan a while ago whose daughter was killed by a speeding driver.
You really didn't want to be speeding and end up in front of him...

raypallas

rangler1 wrote:

Considering that those trailers are now illegal behind a jeep, there'll be a good few looking for that information. ....that's if the guards enforce the laws, presume you referrring to a fourteen foot trailer

Would the problem not be with the driver having no trailer license rather than the trailer itself?

barnaman

IMO alot of lads going to get caught in this area over next few years between not having right licences to modifying trailers thereby making them not of an approved type.

http://www.rsa.ie/en/RSA/Your-Vehicle/About-your-Vehicle/Example-of-non-Dup/Trailers-/Legal-Requirements-for-towing-trailers-/

Whats interesting is definition of ""agricultural trailer" means a trailer, the property of a person engaged in agriculture, which is designed and used primarily for work on the land and which is used on a public road only incidentally to such work;"

Most cattle trailers pulled by tractors probably need a HGV licence no way that you can say they meet the definition above.

Nekarsulm

By that definition most Ifor Williams don't meet the requirements of an agri. trailer either.

paddysdream

Nekarsulm wrote: »

By that definition most Ifor Williams don't meet the requirements of an agri. trailer either.

The agri trailer bit is used for trailers pulled with tractors and not livestock trailers designed for jeeps/vans.

dunlopwellies

gerryirl wrote: »

I'm after buying a 3 axle cattle trailer. I hadn't plannned on a 3 axle as its only going to be used on the tractor but a great second hand one came up for sake and I knew its history so I bought . Here's my problem . It has 13 inch rims on it so when I put it on the tractor the balance is wrong so all the weight is on the 2 back axles mostly the back one . Is there any device out there that can be bought that I could lower the hitch by a couple of inches . I've seen ones that go on the arms but that's not great job .
Thanks in advance

ADJUSTABLE MOUNTING COUPLING
https://www.trailerstuff.ie/p/673:c:210_179_37_46/shop-by-category/trailer-accessories/couplings/height-adjustable-couplings/dixon-bate-extended-height-adjustable-coupling/

Something like this that your looking for? There was something similar for the tractor drawbar on donedeal a while back. I think it was called a load level or something.
Also the type of drawbar from a road compressor made by Bradley too I think might work as a bolt on solution. Should be load rated and braked.

Reggie.

dunlopwellies wrote: »

ADJUSTABLE MOUNTING COUPLING
https://www.trailerstuff.ie/p/673:c:210_179_37_46/shop-by-category/trailer-accessories/couplings/height-adjustable-couplings/dixon-bate-extended-height-adjustable-coupling/

Something like this that your looking for? There was something similar for the tractor drawbar on donedeal a while back. I think it was called a load level or something.
Also the type of drawbar from a road compressor made by Bradley too I think might work as a bolt on solution. Should be load rated and braked.

How is that connected to the tractor?

barnaman

Lads messing with couplings etc just get ye in trouble IMO. Trailer is certified as a whole and that includes the couplings which must be installed correctly. Now this being Ireland we all know could get ignored but all that is changing.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Vehicle%20Std%20Leg/Information%20Notes/Light%20Trailer%20Stakeholder%20Note.pdf

orm0nd

barnaman wrote: »

I would say yes Reggie it would be. Trailer as a whole is certified. You take off the hitch it is certified with. You are then modifying it/building/contructing it new trailer or hitch could be looked at both ways Who is certfiying the eye you put on? Are you qualified to do welding etc. Thats way Guards would look at it.

http://www.mayonews.ie/news/27702-mayo-gardai-accused-of-targeting-agri-contractors

Thats the court case. Covered in this weeks journal and spoke to a lad from up that part of the world. The more serious charges of licence, tacho etc were dimissed by judge as area was unclear.

I know that trailer well, if Damien had a decent solicitor or if Farrelly was worth his salt that case would have been dimissed.

whelan2

If you are pulled in by the rsa they will very rarely let you go without doing you for something. Oh was pulled in last year a week after he got through the doe, they did him for a split pin missing on the back axle of the trailer :eek: He had 10 days to fix it up and send them a photo of it fixed.

Night Nav

Would I be right in saying if you were pulling 1 of these 3 axle jeep trailers behind a tractor with 5. 700 kg cattle it would be illegal because you would be over the designed gross weight of the trailer

Zimmerframe

Night Nav wrote: »

Would I be right in saying if you were pulling 1 of these 3 axle jeep trailers behind a tractor with 5. 700 kg cattle it would be illegal because you would be over the designed gross weight of the trailer

Yes it would be illegal.

mayota

Night Nav wrote: »

Would I be right in saying if you were pulling 1 of these 3 axle jeep trailers behind a tractor with 5. 700 kg cattle it would be illegal because you would be over the designed gross weight of the trailer

Yes.

Bass Reeves

Night Nav wrote: »

Would I be right in saying if you were pulling 1 of these 3 axle jeep trailers behind a tractor with 5. 700 kg cattle it would be illegal because you would be over the designed gross weight of the trailer

Zimmerframe wrote: »

Yes it would be illegal.

Them trailers (14X6 I presume) will hold six bullocks that weight and are often pulled by jeeps. That would be a gross weight of over 5 ton. This will become an issue over time as the guards enforce the law strictly.

paddysdream

Night Nav wrote: »

Would I be right in saying if you were pulling 1 of these 3 axle jeep trailers behind a tractor with 5. 700 kg cattle it would be illegal because you would be over the designed gross weight of the trailer

Looking at IF site weight of 14" x 5' 10" 2 axle is 1155 kg and plated for 3500 kg gross so that allows you 2345 kg of cattle or sheep on board assuming your towing vehicle is plated to tow 3500kg.3 axle is 110 kg heavier so 110 kg less livestock.Doesn't mention whether this includes decks or not.Extra axle only reduces the allowable load weight from a towing point of view.
Many 4x4 are 3000 kg or even 2800kg towing limit.
Think these figures are what the makers put on them for our market and thats what the limits are based on.
Not much point plating a trailer for 4000kg when no van maker has,as far as I know,plated a vehicle for this towing weight in Ireland.

Bass Reeves

paddysdream wrote: »

Looking at IF site weight of 14" x 5' 10" 2 axle is 1155 kg and plated for 3500 kg gross so that allows you 2345 kg of cattle or sheep on board assuming your towing vehicle is plated to tow 3500kg.3 axle is 110 kg heavier so 110 kg less livestock.Doesn't mention whether this includes decks or not.Extra axle only reduces the allowable load weight from a towing point of view.
Many 4x4 are 3000 kg or even 2800kg towing limit.
Think these figures are what the makers put on them for our market and thats what the limits are based on.
Not much point plating a trailer for 4000kg when no van maker has,as far as I know,plated a vehicle for this towing weight in Ireland.[/QUOTE]

Nissan Patrol had two models that were plated to tow in excess of 4 ton. We will have to look out for a cheap one. Both seem to be petrol models.

http://www.uktow.com/towing%20capacity.asp

Night Nav

Them trailers (14X6 I presume) will hold six bullocks that weight and are often pulled by jeeps. That would be a gross weight of over 5 ton. This will become an issue over time as the guards enforce the law strictly.

I understand they are pulled by jeeps most of the time and understand they can take 6 bullocks but the point I'm making some few lads might think by buying them cheap and pulling them with a tractor that they would not be breaking the law but they would

Reggie.

Night Nav wrote: »

Them trailers (14X6 I presume) will hold six bullocks that weight and are often pulled by jeeps. That would be a gross weight of over 5 ton. This will become an issue over time as the guards enforce the law strictly.

I understand they are pulled by jeeps most of the time and understand they can take 6 bullocks but the point I'm making some few lads might think by buying them cheap and pulling them with a tractor that they would not be breaking the law but they would

That's what I was thinking alright but with a towing eye

barnaman

http://www.autoandtrailer.com/spring-damped/

3 tonne seem to be the max coupling for most of these standard bradley trailers.

http://www.autoandtrailer.com/50mm-replacment-3500kg-bradley-eye/

what you going for Reggie?

Reggie.

barnaman wrote: »

http://www.autoandtrailer.com/spring-damped/

3 tonne seem to be the max coupling for most of these standard bradley trailers.

http://www.autoandtrailer.com/50mm-replacment-3500kg-bradley-eye/

what you going for Reggie?

Was thinking of it but thought it would have a higher towing limit than 3500kg. Must be the drawbar that's the limiting factor

Night Nav

That's what I was thinking alright but with a towing eye[/quote]

Trailer still plated for 3500kg and if you were to put a towing eye on it I would think it would have to be certified by the manufacturer or someone similar which I know is all a load of ......

rangler1

Reggie. wrote: »

That's what I was thinking alright but with a towing eye

Drawbars are very short on jeep trailers if your thinking of puting them on the PUH and then the V shape of the drawbar leaves it nearer to the tractor wheels again.
Ball hitch on the tractor drawbar is probably the most straight forward,
If i was doing it, I'd buy another drawbar and tighten the ball hitch on it proPerly and weld the nut. Nuts can be difficult to keep tight on them if you're taking them off and on

Bass Reeves

rangler1 wrote: »

Drawbars are very short on jeep trailers if your thinking of puting them on the PUH and then the V shape of the drawbar leaves it nearer to the tractor wheels again.
Ball hitch on the tractor drawbar is probably the most straight forward,
If i was doing it, I'd buy another drawbar and tighten the ball hitch on it proPerly and weld the nut. Nuts can be difficult to keep tight on them if you're taking them off and on

Problem is that with the trailer you are still limited to 3.5 ton even when towing by a tractor. A 14X6 box can carry 6 cattle 700-750kgs with box this is a gross weight of nearly 5.5 ton. I wonder would it be possible to get the trailer replated if you used a higher capacity hitch. You can get towing eye's rated to 5 ton. However even if you did this you are caught by the fact that most drawbars are higher than the tow bar of the trailer. That issue might be possible to overcome with a adapter that fits into a standard drawbar.

barnaman

3.5 tonnes with a B licence and 7 tonnes with a BE licence and that includes vehicle, trailer and load so that makes most of these cattle trailers penalty point makers.

Eggie99

Lads be very carefully of what info your putting out here, a BE licence only covers upto 3500kg gross weight, that's car/jeep plus trailer plus load. You need a C1E licence to go upto 7500kg gross weight. Check out rsa website for clarification, pub talk has been known to get lads in bother before so clarify for yourselves before getting into bother cause you take someone on here at there word vrs clarity from the governing body

davidk1394

So if I was going to do a test would I be better off to go for the truck licence?