4wd needed for double axle trailer?

_Brian

breakemall wrote: »

Is it not correct that the maximum limit for towing is 1.5 times the gross vehicle weight for a 4x4 (this is the max and the plated max load could be set at less by the maker) and 0.75 times the gross vehicle vehicle weight for a 4x2?

That is why people say you need a 4x4 for twin axles, it is down to the weight of the trailer/load and not the number of axles?

With a B licence even driving a 4x4 you are limited to a max towing capacity of 750kg and max combined weight of vehicle and trailer of 3500kg?

The BE licence gives a max combined weight of vehicle and trailer of 7000kg but the 4x4 v 4x2 x vehicle weight/max plated towing capacity still applies?

I have seen a Toyota Corolla 1.4 towing an Ifor Williams 510 with 2 16hh+ horses so anything is possible. But if you have an accident you are probably screwed 7 ways to Sunday?

Just to correct a mistake above. On. B liscence you are not limited to 750kg towing capacity.
Example, my vehicle has a DGVW of 2000kg, I regularly tow a plated caravan DGVW 1420kg , combined DGVW is 3420kgs and it is perfectly legal on my standard B liscence.

Del2005

TrailerBob wrote: »

And you're right, this is the difficulty. Unless you have massive weight behind it, you'll never be directed to the weighbridge by the Gardai though. Most operate the "If it looks right, it is right" policy

Haven't the RSA started doing roadside checks on trailers?

Jesus.

breakemall wrote: »

I have seen a Toyota Corolla 1.4 towing an Ifor Williams 510 with 2 16hh+ horses

Dear God

breakemall

_Brian wrote: »

Just to correct a mistake above. On. B liscence you are not limited to 750kg towing capacity.
Example, my vehicle has a DGVW of 2000kg, I regularly tow a plated caravan DGVW 1420kg , combined DGVW is 3420kgs and it is perfectly legal on my standard B liscence.

That was why I had a "?" at the end of the sentence...

I know there is a max combined weight of 3500kg for the B license but 750kg is bandied about a lot as a secondary figure. Is that figure the max weight bearing capacity of the trailer then and not combined weight of the trailer and load?

breakemall

Jesus. wrote: »

Dear God

And he was flying it on the Wexford to New Ross road for good measure! I would love to have been behind him to see how he handled the climbing lane with a load like that.

TrailerBob

Del2005 wrote: »

Haven't the RSA started doing roadside checks on trailers?

Perhaps they have, and rightly so. Yet to see a multi-agency check point on the road personally, but again I'd be surprised if it was commonplace yet. One glance at the line-up outside my local Mart on a Tuesday and they'd have a field day

Is it not correct that the maximum limit for towing is 1.5 times the gross vehicle weight for a 4x4 (this is the max and the plated max load could be set at less by the maker) and 0.75 times the gross vehicle vehicle weight for a 4x2?

Never heard that one before..

I'm kinda done with the repeated trailer license question tbh. It turns up every few weeks, and the same replies with mistaken facts are thrown about - not the same posters all the time in fairness. It takes 8 seconds to find this link which explains the actual facts, and its not bad for an RSA publication

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://rsa.ie/Documents/Road%2520Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Road%2520Safety%2520Advice%2520for%2520Drawing%2520Light%2520Trailers.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwipv7SThbbNAhWsLMAKHZBjAvAQFggnMAQ&usg=AFQjCNF2kwLY5RLYQGLkKx_diYaYX98X2A


Maybe not worthy of a sticky, but perhaps a first place to look for people instead of the barstool advice

testicles

This post has been deleted.

_Brian

breakemall wrote: »

That was why I had a "?" at the end of the sentence...

I know there is a max combined weight of 3500kg for the B license but 750kg is bandied about a lot as a secondary figure. Is that figure the max weight bearing capacity of the trailer then and not combined weight of the trailer and load?

No, essentially 750kg is the DGVW of trailers below which isn't counted.

That's why the regulations allow for a combined DGVW of up to 3500kg, except where the DGVW of the trailer is 750kg or less, if your trailer is 750kg or less you can exceed the 3500kg combined limit and drive a vehicle of DGVW up to 3500kg and still pull the trailer of up to 750kg DGVW, giving a combined DGVW of up to 4250kg on a regular B liscence.

I'm on the phone and my thumbs are just too thick to go and find this on the RSA website to quote it, but it's there.

_Brian

Like everything else there are "fudges" to be done.

I can go to a caravan supplier and ask them to "plate down" my caravan. This brings a larger van into the range of the liscence.
It involves them stamping a new plate and removing the old plate from the chassis.

My understanding this costs about €300 and I've heard of caravans being played down by ~200kg.

I'd guess same can be done for trailers.

4odh4n

4WD is needed for doing the actual EB test (or at least RWD?), maybe that is confusing the OP. Its worth a check insurance small print for towing too, a policy I had a few years ago only covered up to max of 750kg, when I queried this I had to submit a copy of my EB license and I got a letter covering up to DGVW of trailer and towing vehicle. No limit mentioned on current policy (different insurer) but I assume it defaults to legal requirements or whatever.

millington

Interestingly enough, I asked the local Gardaí on this and they only spoke of gross train weights and nothing of the DGVW. I know that it actually is based on the DGVW but if the Gardaí don't even know the right way to do it, how is Joe Soap meant to know? :rolleyes:

mgbgt1978

4odh4n wrote: »

4WD is needed for doing the actual EB test (or at least RWD?)

Any proof of this ?

CiniO

4odh4n wrote: »

4WD is needed for doing the actual EB test (or at least RWD?), maybe that is confusing the OP.

No, it is not.
There's no requirement for 4wd or rwd for test.

Its worth a check insurance small print for towing too, a policy I had a few years ago only covered up to max of 750kg, when I queried this I had to submit a copy of my EB license and I got a letter covering up to DGVW of trailer and towing vehicle. No limit mentioned on current policy (different insurer) but I assume it defaults to legal requirements or whatever.

No insurer can refuse to provide third party cover when towing a trailer, if trailer fulfills legal weight limits for vehicle/licence.

So therefore, if there really was such small print in your policy and applied to third party cover, then it was illegal for them to put such print on the policy

The Sidewards Man

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Any proof of this ?

A link would be handy for sure.

TrailerBob

_Brian wrote: »

I'm on the phone and my thumbs are just too thick to go and find this on the RSA website to quote it, but it's there.

It's a pity somebody didn't post the link to the RSA trailer document 2 posts before yours... Which subsequent posters either didn't look at or ignored and brought out more conjecture.

*gets coat and heads for the 4x4 to tow a mahoosive trailer

4odh4n

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Any proof of this ?

to be honest I don't!, I just remember when I done my EB test back in 2011 I was told not show up to the test with a flatbed car transporter using my car to tow it, it would have to be 4x4 or RWD... this was over the phone from the RSA after I spent a lifetime trying to get info on the whole setup and had to gave them details of the trailer weights lengths etc, mind you I got the impression they knew as much as I did about it all at the time. I think they had took the line that the vehicle had to be capable of towing the max load the trailer could carry... even though it would be empty!

In the end up I used the jeep just to be sure, but I had to spend a day with power washer and steam cleaner a week before the test as it was in 'off farm condition'!, hence the car had been my preferred option!

mgbgt1978

In your case that was down to the DGVW of your Trailer. I'm pretty sure they may have asked you to use a 4WD...but any RWD ???.
But all they require for the test nowadays is any box-type trailer with a DGVW 0f 1400kg or more, and 30 standard concrete blocks firmly tied down inside the trailer.

edit; and a car rated to Tow this.

CiniO

Rules of the road book says it all about requirements for vehicle for category BE test:

A combination, made up of a Category B test vehicle which should be
either (a) a length of at least 4.25 metres, or (b) a 4 wheel drive vehicle
and a trailer with a maximum authorised mass of between 1,400–3,500
kg, capable of a speed of at least 100km/h, which does not fall within
Category B. The cargo compartment of the trailer must consist of a
permanent, closed box body which is at least as wide and as high as the
motor vehicle, and at least 2.4 metres long. The closed box body may be
slightly less wide than the motor vehicle, provided that the view to the
rear is only possible by use of the external rear-view mirrors of the motor
vehicle. The trailer must be presented with a real total mass (the actual
weight of the trailer including the necessary load) of at least 800kg,
having due regard for safety, stability, manufacturer’s guidelines and
legal limits of the combination.
In order to meet the Real Total Mass requirement you are required
to place 30 four inch (100 X 220 X 450mm) solid concrete blocks in
the trailer. The blocks should be evenly distributed across the trailer
and positioned in such a way as to keep the nose weight within
recommended limits.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Rules_of_the_road.pdf

4odh4n

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

In your case that was down to the DGVW of your Trailer. I'm pretty sure they may have asked you to use a 4WD...but any RWD ???.
But all they require for the test nowadays is any box-type trailer with a DGVW 0f 1400kg or more, and 30 standard concrete blocks firmly tied down inside the trailer.

edit; and a car rated to Tow this.

I asked about using a van as I could have got my hands on one, they said ok if it was RWD, but it was a FWD so ended up with the jeep

Wishbone Ash

The Sidewards Man wrote: »

A vw golf would pull a cow box no problem.

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

I pulled a rickety old double axle trailer full of timber out of a ditch with a 1.4 MPI Fabia and drove it about 20 miles one time. There was a bit of a smell of burning clutch a few times.

I'd be more concerned about the braking/stopping capacity of the towing vehicle rather than what it can tow.

mgbgt1978

From the RSA Site (with due thanks to Cinio);

The cargo compartment of the trailer must consist of a
permanent, closed box body which is at least as wide and as high as the
motor vehicle, and at least 2.4 metres long. The closed box body may be
slightly less wide than the motor vehicle.

Gotta love officialdom in this Country. "It must be x....but y will do.:)

Garbally

I have done a lot of research into this lately, and have even contacted the RSA a couple of times over the last few days. Even the RSA seem to be confused!

The RSA advised me over the phone that I can tow any trailer with my B licence provided that the weight of the car and trailer (if weighed) are below 3,500kg. Therefore, I could tow an empty double horsebox (900kg) with my car (towing capacity 1,600kg).

I emailed after the first call to confirm this, and I got back the standard response about the 3,500kg limit includes the DGCW of both vehicles. I called again, and was again assured the 3,500kg related to the actual weight of the car and trailer on the spot. I pointed out that I felt his email contradicted this, but the shutters came down then.

I sent in another email, so let's see where that goes.

_Brian

Garbally wrote: »

I have done a lot of research into this lately, and have even contacted the RSA a couple of times over the last few days. Even the RSA seem to be confused!

The RSA advised me over the phone that I can tow any trailer with my B licence provided that the weight of the car and trailer (if weighed) are below 3,500kg. Therefore, I could tow an empty double horsebox (900kg) with my car (towing capacity 1,600kg).

I emailed after the first call to confirm this, and I got back the standard response about the 3,500kg limit includes the DGCW of both vehicles. I called again, and was again assured the 3,500kg related to the actual weight of the car and trailer on the spot. I pointed out that I felt his email contradicted this, but the shutters came down then.

I sent in another email, so let's see where that goes.

Email is right and whoever you spoke to is wrong.
It's the Designed weight not actual, it's written all over the regulations DGVW.

I went through same with RSA and Guards few years ago when I was buying my caravan and got it clarified by RSA, there is a lot of confusion out there but ignorance of the law is no offence.

CiniO

Garbally wrote: »

I have done a lot of research into this lately, and have even contacted the RSA a couple of times over the last few days. Even the RSA seem to be confused!

The RSA advised me over the phone that I can tow any trailer with my B licence provided that the weight of the car and trailer (if weighed) are below 3,500kg. Therefore, I could tow an empty double horsebox (900kg) with my car (towing capacity 1,600kg).

I emailed after the first call to confirm this, and I got back the standard response about the 3,500kg limit includes the DGCW of both vehicles. I called again, and was again assured the 3,500kg related to the actual weight of the car and trailer on the spot. I pointed out that I felt his email contradicted this, but the shutters came down then.

I sent in another email, so let's see where that goes.

As you see asking them is pointless as they don't seem too knowledgeable.

However law is clear and relates to dgvw not actual weight.

Jesus.

_Brian wrote: »

there is a lot of confusion out there but ignorance of the law is no offence.

Even if the authorities themselves appear to be half ignorant of it?

The Sidewards Man

One should not accept links off the rsa website as law.

Jesus.

What are the RSA? An NGO or a Quango?

The Sidewards Man

Can you ask God Jesus?

Jesus.

Not even he understands the RSA

The Sidewards Man

Ok Jesus thanks for that.