4wd needed for double axle trailer?

tcow

Hi

I know there are some old posts on this, but I cant find more recent ones.

Wondering, do I need a 4wd to tow a double axle trailer/cow box?? Won't be pulling anything jeavye, like a digger or anything. Just small stuff, amf maybe a cow or few calves.

Iv got a B , B1 licence only.

Jimmy Garlic

It'll be grand. Take it handy. You don't need a 4wd.

tcow

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

It'll be grand. Take it handy. You don't need a 4wd.

Sound.�� But legal wise. If I get stopped, or have an accident??

speckled_park

Think you need a BE license to tow a cattle box

The Sidewards Man

A vw golf would pull a cow box no problem.

tcow

The Sidewards Man wrote: »

A vw golf would pull a cow box no problem.

Missing the point of the question I think!!:(

The Sidewards Man

No I'm not, a 4wd isn't needed. That is why I suggested a golf.

Jimmy Garlic

tcow wrote: »

Sound.�� But legal wise. If I get stopped, or have an accident??

Up to you. I don't have a BE licence and have no intention of handing over the bones of 100 quid and wasting a day to get one either.

Jesus.

The Sidewards Man wrote: »

A vw golf would pull a cow box no problem.

TDI

Neilw

I think this is how it works.

What ever the towing capacity of the car is cannot be exceeded, e.g 2005 golf tdi is 1400kg as per google.

So you can tow a trailer provided the unladen trailer weight, plus the load don't exceed 1400kg.

Secondly, the train weight, which is the combined weight of the tow car, trailer and load can't exceed 3500kg.

ianobrien

There's something about a B licence (not an EB one) being restricted to towing 700kg, including trailer. That would mean no towing of a twin axle as most of them have a GVW of over a tonne.

I'm open to correction on the figures and the exact wording.

Del2005

ianobrien wrote: »

There's something about a B licence (not an EB one) being restricted to towing 700kg, including trailer. That would mean no towing of a twin axle as most of them have a GVW of over a tonne.

I'm open to correction on the figures and the exact wording.

They throw in the 750kg to confuse people. On a B you can tow a combination of less than 3.5t. For higher licences you need an E to tow more than 750kg.

_Brian

On a B you can have a combined DGVW up to 3500kgs, the designed gross vehicle weights.
The important thing here is the designed weight.

So a twin axle trailer is going to be "designed" to be ~2000kgs

There will be a plate on your car showing its DGVW, but I'd say it's ~1800kgs, that gives a combined DGVW in this example of 3800kgs

So on a standard B you probably can't tow a twin axle trailer, even if it's empty as it's the designed weight that's important not the actual weight.

Now, 99% of trailers on the road have no plate and were knocked out behind some lads house in the garage. How would a guard tell what the DGVW of such a trailer be ?? You could argue that it's 750kgs ??

_Brian

The mention of trailers up to. DGVW of 750kg shows that essentially the law ignores trailers up to the 750dgvw limit.

Shown by the fact that on a standard B I can drive a vehicle of DGVW 3500kg (say a transit) and still tow a trailer with a DGVW of up to 750kgs.

Markcheese

I think the 4wd drive bit has a lot to do with towing capacity... things like pajero,landrover defender,d-max ect that have full time 4wd are rated to tow 3.5 ton max.
Land cruisers and hi-luxs ect are part time 4wd and I think only 2.5 ton towing..
Licence is the next issue... see above
Upshot is most fellas you see with minidiggers and full cowboxs behind a landcruiser are probably way overweight...

CiniO

Jesus. wrote: »

TDI

1.4 would do the job as well

CiniO

tcow wrote: »

Hi

I know there are some old posts on this, but I cant find more recent ones.

Wondering, do I need a 4wd to tow a double axle trailer/cow box?? Won't be pulling anything jeavye, like a digger or anything. Just small stuff, amf maybe a cow or few calves.

Iv got a B , B1 licence only.

There's no need for 4wd to tow any trailer.

However chances that you will be able to tow a double axle cowbox with your car having only B licence legally is slim to none.

Sh1tbag OToole

I pulled a rickety old double axle trailer full of timber out of a ditch with a 1.4 MPI Fabia and drove it about 20 miles one time. There was a bit of a smell of burning clutch a few times.

_Brian

CiniO wrote: »

There's no need for 4wd to tow any trailer.

However chances that you will be able to tow a double axle cowbox with your car having only B licence legally is slim to none.

Exactly, no mention of number of axles nor 4wd.
Know your design weights and that's all you need.

But the whole plated weights of trailers is an awful grey area. We have a twin axle builders style trailer. Bought it second hand maybe 20 years ago, and it was a home made trailer whenever it was new. So it doesn't have a plated DGVW. So what happens if
I'm stopped ??

CiniO

_Brian wrote: »

Exactly, no mention of number of axles nor 4wd.
Know your design weights and that's all you need.

But the whole plated weights of trailers is an awful grey area. We have a twin axle builders style trailer. Bought it second hand maybe 20 years ago, and it was a home made trailer whenever it was new. So it doesn't have a plated DGVW. So what happens if
I'm stopped ??

No one knows.
It's a big loophole in Irish law, making a requirements for licensing and towing based on trailer Design Gross Vehicle Weight (which is parameter specified by manufactuer) while at the same time, there is no law prohibiting usage of trailers which were homemade and never got any specified Gross Vehicle Weight plate or anything similar.

dr.fuzzenstein

CiniO wrote: »

1.4 would do the job as well

Every farmer knows that. A MKII 1.4 Golf will tow anything, double axle trailer with 3 bullocks no problem whatsoever! Perfect for pulling out 100 meters before a car doing 100 km/h and then trundling at 40 km/h for the next 32 km.:D

Sh1tbag OToole

CiniO wrote: »

No one knows.
It's a big loophole in Irish law, making a requirements for licensing and towing based on trailer Design Gross Vehicle Weight (which is parameter specified by manufactuer) while at the same time, there is no law prohibiting usage of trailers which were homemade and never got any specified Gross Vehicle Weight plate or anything similar.

I can see what will happen. They'll bring in EU mandatory type approval directives and that will be the finish of Irish trailer manufacturing. Or else it will be the case that only the big boys will be able to play on because only they'll shift the numbers to be able to afford the €50k+ approval fee for every trailer they design. Better to leave things as they are than to "fix" the loophole

TrailerBob

Markcheese wrote: »

I think the 4wd drive bit has a lot to do with towing capacity... things like pajero,landrover defender,d-max ect that have full time 4wd are rated to tow 3.5 ton max.
Land cruisers and hi-luxs ect are part time 4wd and I think only 2.5 ton towing..
Licence is the next issue... see above
Upshot is most fellas you see with minidiggers and full cowboxs behind a landcruiser are probably way overweight...

Too much inaccurate information here

1. Toyotas are full time 4wd, one of the few remaining.
Most others are running part time systems. 2wd on the road. Some of the Land Rover stuff is electronic

2. 90 & 120 series landcruiser (1998-2010) - are 2800kg rated - based on gross plated weight of the vehicle at 2850kg - believed an error of judgement on Toyotas part in engineers circles. They are certainly capable of more than that, but not legally.

3. Very few vehicles are actually 3.5 ton rated. Discovery/Defender and Range Rover are, as is the Landcruiser Amazon/200 and 3.2 Pajero. Some of the newer pickups too. 3.5 ton mini diggers are out for anything less than a truck. 1.5 ton digger and cattlebox are both going to come in under 3 ton (unless you wedge 6 bullocks in there)

4. 4x4 has nothing whatsoever to do with towing capacity. It just so happens that the majority of B license vehicles with higher towing capacity are 4wd.

5.OP please do a search here, or go onto the RSA site for the correct information instead of the "I heard that on the 3rd full moon of the second month you can tow a trailer without any licence" stuff.

Sorry just had to clear that up.

PADRAIC.M

All cars chassis plate give you towing capacity
On a Toyota subtract the top weight number from the weight in Kg below it gives the towing capacity

The Sidewards Man

Use a jdm 4x4 and home made trailer. Both are un rated and in the grey area.

TrailerBob

The Sidewards Man wrote: »

Use a jdm 4x4 and home made trailer. Both are un rated and in the grey area.

And you're right, this is the difficulty. Unless you have massive weight behind it, you'll never be directed to the weighbridge by the Gardai though. Most operate the "If it looks right, it is right" policy

9935452

The Sidewards Man wrote: »

Use a jdm 4x4 and home made trailer. Both are un rated and in the grey area.

There was an article in the farmers journal a while back about the hilux vigo.
Jap imports that arent plated to tow anything. Therefore not legal to pull anything.
I know of a man who bought one new pulling a new plated cattlebox and was stopped by the guards .
He was told to take off the cattle box on the side of the road and get someone else to collect it.

The Sidewards Man

That man should have asked that guard where is the legislation on that.

Jimmy Garlic

9935452 wrote: »

There was an article in the farmers journal a while back about the hilux vigo.
Jap imports that arent plated to tow anything. Therefore not legal to pull anything.
I know of a man who bought one new pulling a new plated cattlebox and was stopped by the guards .
He was told to take off the cattle box on the side of the road and get someone else to collect it.

That kind of petty ''policing'' is just pr1ck acting. If yer man reported his new trailer stolen from the side of the road where he was told to leave it he wouldn't see them for hours, assuming they even bother to turn up at all.

Jesus.

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

I pulled a rickety old double axle trailer full of timber out of a ditch with a 1.4 MPI Fabia and drove it about 20 miles one time. There was a bit of a smell of burning clutch a few times.

You weren't driving it right Sh1tbag. Cinio could haul that timber up and down the Wicklow mountains and you wouldn't smell a thing

breakemall

Is it not correct that the maximum limit for towing is 1.5 times the gross vehicle weight for a 4x4 (this is the max and the plated max load could be set at less by the maker) and 0.75 times the gross vehicle vehicle weight for a 4x2?

That is why people say you need a 4x4 for twin axles, it is down to the weight of the trailer/load and not the number of axles?

With a B licence even driving a 4x4 you are limited to a max towing capacity of 750kg and max combined weight of vehicle and trailer of 3500kg?

The BE licence gives a max combined weight of vehicle and trailer of 7000kg but the 4x4 v 4x2 x vehicle weight/max plated towing capacity still applies?

I have seen a Toyota Corolla 1.4 towing an Ifor Williams 510 with 2 16hh+ horses so anything is possible. But if you have an accident you are probably screwed 7 ways to Sunday?

_Brian

breakemall wrote: »

Is it not correct that the maximum limit for towing is 1.5 times the gross vehicle weight for a 4x4 (this is the max and the plated max load could be set at less by the maker) and 0.75 times the gross vehicle vehicle weight for a 4x2?

That is why people say you need a 4x4 for twin axles, it is down to the weight of the trailer/load and not the number of axles?

With a B licence even driving a 4x4 you are limited to a max towing capacity of 750kg and max combined weight of vehicle and trailer of 3500kg?

The BE licence gives a max combined weight of vehicle and trailer of 7000kg but the 4x4 v 4x2 x vehicle weight/max plated towing capacity still applies?

I have seen a Toyota Corolla 1.4 towing an Ifor Williams 510 with 2 16hh+ horses so anything is possible. But if you have an accident you are probably screwed 7 ways to Sunday?

Just to correct a mistake above. On. B liscence you are not limited to 750kg towing capacity.
Example, my vehicle has a DGVW of 2000kg, I regularly tow a plated caravan DGVW 1420kg , combined DGVW is 3420kgs and it is perfectly legal on my standard B liscence.

Del2005

TrailerBob wrote: »

And you're right, this is the difficulty. Unless you have massive weight behind it, you'll never be directed to the weighbridge by the Gardai though. Most operate the "If it looks right, it is right" policy

Haven't the RSA started doing roadside checks on trailers?

Jesus.

breakemall wrote: »

I have seen a Toyota Corolla 1.4 towing an Ifor Williams 510 with 2 16hh+ horses

Dear God

breakemall

_Brian wrote: »

Just to correct a mistake above. On. B liscence you are not limited to 750kg towing capacity.
Example, my vehicle has a DGVW of 2000kg, I regularly tow a plated caravan DGVW 1420kg , combined DGVW is 3420kgs and it is perfectly legal on my standard B liscence.

That was why I had a "?" at the end of the sentence...

I know there is a max combined weight of 3500kg for the B license but 750kg is bandied about a lot as a secondary figure. Is that figure the max weight bearing capacity of the trailer then and not combined weight of the trailer and load?

breakemall

Jesus. wrote: »

Dear God

And he was flying it on the Wexford to New Ross road for good measure! I would love to have been behind him to see how he handled the climbing lane with a load like that.

TrailerBob

Del2005 wrote: »

Haven't the RSA started doing roadside checks on trailers?

Perhaps they have, and rightly so. Yet to see a multi-agency check point on the road personally, but again I'd be surprised if it was commonplace yet. One glance at the line-up outside my local Mart on a Tuesday and they'd have a field day

Is it not correct that the maximum limit for towing is 1.5 times the gross vehicle weight for a 4x4 (this is the max and the plated max load could be set at less by the maker) and 0.75 times the gross vehicle vehicle weight for a 4x2?

Never heard that one before..

I'm kinda done with the repeated trailer license question tbh. It turns up every few weeks, and the same replies with mistaken facts are thrown about - not the same posters all the time in fairness. It takes 8 seconds to find this link which explains the actual facts, and its not bad for an RSA publication

https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://rsa.ie/Documents/Road%2520Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Road%2520Safety%2520Advice%2520for%2520Drawing%2520Light%2520Trailers.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwipv7SThbbNAhWsLMAKHZBjAvAQFggnMAQ&usg=AFQjCNF2kwLY5RLYQGLkKx_diYaYX98X2A


Maybe not worthy of a sticky, but perhaps a first place to look for people instead of the barstool advice

testicles

This post has been deleted.

_Brian

breakemall wrote: »

That was why I had a "?" at the end of the sentence...

I know there is a max combined weight of 3500kg for the B license but 750kg is bandied about a lot as a secondary figure. Is that figure the max weight bearing capacity of the trailer then and not combined weight of the trailer and load?

No, essentially 750kg is the DGVW of trailers below which isn't counted.

That's why the regulations allow for a combined DGVW of up to 3500kg, except where the DGVW of the trailer is 750kg or less, if your trailer is 750kg or less you can exceed the 3500kg combined limit and drive a vehicle of DGVW up to 3500kg and still pull the trailer of up to 750kg DGVW, giving a combined DGVW of up to 4250kg on a regular B liscence.

I'm on the phone and my thumbs are just too thick to go and find this on the RSA website to quote it, but it's there.

_Brian

Like everything else there are "fudges" to be done.

I can go to a caravan supplier and ask them to "plate down" my caravan. This brings a larger van into the range of the liscence.
It involves them stamping a new plate and removing the old plate from the chassis.

My understanding this costs about €300 and I've heard of caravans being played down by ~200kg.

I'd guess same can be done for trailers.

4odh4n

4WD is needed for doing the actual EB test (or at least RWD?), maybe that is confusing the OP. Its worth a check insurance small print for towing too, a policy I had a few years ago only covered up to max of 750kg, when I queried this I had to submit a copy of my EB license and I got a letter covering up to DGVW of trailer and towing vehicle. No limit mentioned on current policy (different insurer) but I assume it defaults to legal requirements or whatever.

millington

Interestingly enough, I asked the local Gardaí on this and they only spoke of gross train weights and nothing of the DGVW. I know that it actually is based on the DGVW but if the Gardaí don't even know the right way to do it, how is Joe Soap meant to know? :rolleyes:

mgbgt1978

4odh4n wrote: »

4WD is needed for doing the actual EB test (or at least RWD?)

Any proof of this ?

CiniO

4odh4n wrote: »

4WD is needed for doing the actual EB test (or at least RWD?), maybe that is confusing the OP.

No, it is not.
There's no requirement for 4wd or rwd for test.

Its worth a check insurance small print for towing too, a policy I had a few years ago only covered up to max of 750kg, when I queried this I had to submit a copy of my EB license and I got a letter covering up to DGVW of trailer and towing vehicle. No limit mentioned on current policy (different insurer) but I assume it defaults to legal requirements or whatever.

No insurer can refuse to provide third party cover when towing a trailer, if trailer fulfills legal weight limits for vehicle/licence.

So therefore, if there really was such small print in your policy and applied to third party cover, then it was illegal for them to put such print on the policy

The Sidewards Man

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Any proof of this ?

A link would be handy for sure.

TrailerBob

_Brian wrote: »

I'm on the phone and my thumbs are just too thick to go and find this on the RSA website to quote it, but it's there.

It's a pity somebody didn't post the link to the RSA trailer document 2 posts before yours... Which subsequent posters either didn't look at or ignored and brought out more conjecture.

*gets coat and heads for the 4x4 to tow a mahoosive trailer

4odh4n

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Any proof of this ?

to be honest I don't!, I just remember when I done my EB test back in 2011 I was told not show up to the test with a flatbed car transporter using my car to tow it, it would have to be 4x4 or RWD... this was over the phone from the RSA after I spent a lifetime trying to get info on the whole setup and had to gave them details of the trailer weights lengths etc, mind you I got the impression they knew as much as I did about it all at the time. I think they had took the line that the vehicle had to be capable of towing the max load the trailer could carry... even though it would be empty!

In the end up I used the jeep just to be sure, but I had to spend a day with power washer and steam cleaner a week before the test as it was in 'off farm condition'!, hence the car had been my preferred option!

mgbgt1978

In your case that was down to the DGVW of your Trailer. I'm pretty sure they may have asked you to use a 4WD...but any RWD ???.
But all they require for the test nowadays is any box-type trailer with a DGVW 0f 1400kg or more, and 30 standard concrete blocks firmly tied down inside the trailer.

edit; and a car rated to Tow this.

CiniO

Rules of the road book says it all about requirements for vehicle for category BE test:

A combination, made up of a Category B test vehicle which should be
either (a) a length of at least 4.25 metres, or (b) a 4 wheel drive vehicle
and a trailer with a maximum authorised mass of between 1,400–3,500
kg, capable of a speed of at least 100km/h, which does not fall within
Category B. The cargo compartment of the trailer must consist of a
permanent, closed box body which is at least as wide and as high as the
motor vehicle, and at least 2.4 metres long. The closed box body may be
slightly less wide than the motor vehicle, provided that the view to the
rear is only possible by use of the external rear-view mirrors of the motor
vehicle. The trailer must be presented with a real total mass (the actual
weight of the trailer including the necessary load) of at least 800kg,
having due regard for safety, stability, manufacturer’s guidelines and
legal limits of the combination.
In order to meet the Real Total Mass requirement you are required
to place 30 four inch (100 X 220 X 450mm) solid concrete blocks in
the trailer. The blocks should be evenly distributed across the trailer
and positioned in such a way as to keep the nose weight within
recommended limits.

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Learner%20Drivers/Rules_of_the_road.pdf

4odh4n

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

In your case that was down to the DGVW of your Trailer. I'm pretty sure they may have asked you to use a 4WD...but any RWD ???.
But all they require for the test nowadays is any box-type trailer with a DGVW 0f 1400kg or more, and 30 standard concrete blocks firmly tied down inside the trailer.

edit; and a car rated to Tow this.

I asked about using a van as I could have got my hands on one, they said ok if it was RWD, but it was a FWD so ended up with the jeep

Wishbone Ash

The Sidewards Man wrote: »

A vw golf would pull a cow box no problem.

Sh1tbag OToole wrote: »

I pulled a rickety old double axle trailer full of timber out of a ditch with a 1.4 MPI Fabia and drove it about 20 miles one time. There was a bit of a smell of burning clutch a few times.

I'd be more concerned about the braking/stopping capacity of the towing vehicle rather than what it can tow.