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Extending the Luas beyond Red, Green and BXD - see post #14

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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,453 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    riadach wrote: »
    If you check out the alignment maps for the BXD from lower Grafton Street to Eden Quay, you'll see that there are the beginnings of lines which will form part of the future Line F to Lucan.

    There are mentions of it in the College Green plans too,


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,282 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    riadach wrote: »
    If you check out the alignment maps for the BXD from lower Grafton Street to Eden Quay, you'll see that there are the beginnings of lines which will form part of the future Line F to Lucan.

    We're missing an opportunity terminating Line F at College Green. Should be carrying on through to Pearse and Googleland.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,118 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    newacc2015 wrote: »

    IMO the most important area which needs to be connected to the city is UCD. It is insane that a massive university has no proper links to the City. The traffic congestion in the surrounding area is so horrific, that a luas line is needed. The area really needs either an evaluated tram or a metro. An evaluated metro was shelved in Ballymun due to lobbying, I cant imagine how much more vocal residents will be around UCD. A cut and cover Metro is possible with the bypass. But it would cause the area to go to a standstill

    Wasn't there a reserved link through St Helen's (now the Radisson) linking UCD down to the Rock Road? That woud make a great spur - either for Dart (or Luas if connecting to the Green Line at Milltown).


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,670 ✭✭✭jd


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Thanks to moving into a new house, I've been up through Ballymun a lot recently (and come back with a lot of cardboard) and it seems to me that the majority of the Ballymun road would easily accommodate a Luas line using the median and/or one of the existing traffic lanes (this whole road seems rather over engineered imo).

    This is where "Optimised" Metro North will be.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    jd wrote: »
    This is where "Optimised" Metro North will be.
    They are planning on running the Metro North through the median of the R108? Are you serious?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,670 ✭✭✭jd




  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭fionnsci


    I don't suppose anyone knows of/has created a map of what Dublin will (i.e. could) look like when (i.e. if) this is all completed? Metro North, Dart Underground, Luas BXD, Luas to Lucan, Red Line extension to Poolbeg, on one map. I'd love to play make believe.

    Also, does anyone else find the fact that all the different rail systems will have different names to be a little frustrating? I know it's largely superficial but I can imagine tourists in particular being confused with talk of Luas, Dart and Metro. I wonder would they ever try to bring them all under one brand or two, based on whether it's light rail/heavy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,453 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    They just need to stop referring to the method of transport, and highlight the destination or the line. Imo there's already scope for rebranding the Red Line to denote the different Saggart/Tallaght services - take a look at the Washington DC Metro for example, where the Yellow Line shares much of its duration with the Green (and then Blue) lines, or the Orange and Silver lines which are essentially the same aside from spurs.

    Of course, in an ideal world, the DART and Luas would share naming conventions so tourists could glance and know, but I'd guess that'll never happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,219 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    jd wrote: »

    With the stops that far apart maybe they could have a Luas running beside it to get people to their stop:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭That username is already in use.


    fionnsci wrote: »
    I don't suppose anyone knows of/has created a map of what Dublin will (i.e. could) look like when (i.e. if) this is all completed?

    There's this map from Skyscapercity.

    https://goo.gl/1pZyNj

    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1712381


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Wasn't the median built with the intention of facilitating a metro line? What's the problem


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Wasn't the median built with the intention of facilitating a metro line? What's the problem

    Capacity , speed, access and public safety


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    This doesn't seem to be a problem in other cities, or with Luas. Given that it's anticipated as part of the layout, I imagine most of those concerns have been designed out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    AngryLips wrote: »
    This doesn't seem to be a problem in other cities, or with Luas. Given that it's anticipated as part of the layout, I imagine most of those concerns have been designed out.

    The Luas isn't a Metro. MN is meant to be closer to the underground in London than a tram.

    It was intended to have a 90 second service and 90 meter trains.
    A 90 second services means a 90 meter train passing a given point on average every 45 seconds. If we want to run a Luas up the median that's fine but it will have shorter trams, lower speeds, be less frequent and stopping at traffic lights leading to longer journey times


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,670 ✭✭✭jd


    AngryLips wrote: »
    This doesn't seem to be a problem in other cities, or with Luas. Given that it's anticipated as part of the layout, I imagine most of those concerns have been designed out.

    Originally they thought they'd have a segregated elevated metro.
    This didn't go down well with the locals so plan was then to tunnel as far as Santry Avenue.
    Some old back ground at http://www.irishtimes.com/news/rpa-prefers-central-ballymun-route-for-dublin-s-metro-line-north-1.1039563


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    The Luas isn't a Metro. MN is meant to be closer to the underground in London than a tram.

    It was intended to have a 90 second service and 90 meter trains.

    The reality is that there won't be deman for frequencies under 3 minutes per direction any time in the foreseeable future though. Let's not kid ourselves about that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Dardania


    AngryLips wrote: »
    The Luas isn't a Metro. MN is meant to be closer to the underground in London than a tram.  

    It was intended to have a 90 second service and 90 meter trains.

    The reality is that there won't be deman for frequencies under 3 minutes per direction any time in the foreseeable future though. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

    I was talking with some colleagues lately, what is essence of good engineering. And the consensus was: in designing a system, how the designer matches peak demand to average demand, with a fixed capacity, is a great way to judge the quality of a designer. 

    Comes up in many fields e.g. at peak load, combustion machines are most efficient, but how efficient are they at part load.
    Back on topic - the demand is there, but maybe Dublin Bus will continue to provide some of the capacity also...


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,138 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    AngryLips wrote: »
    The reality is that there won't be deman for frequencies under 3 minutes per direction any time in the foreseeable future though. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

    It's nearly 200 years since discussions began on a London Underground.

    I wonder were they thinking about short term demand at that time?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    AngryLips wrote: »
    The reality is that there won't be deman for frequencies under 3 minutes per direction any time in the foreseeable future though. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

    The reality is if we build it limited to frequencies of 3 minutes that's all we'll get where as if it's built to handle 90 second frequency we don't have to use it initially


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    lawred2 wrote: »
    It's nearly 200 years since discussions began on a London Underground.

    I wonder were they thinking about short term demand at that time?

    I think they got good value out of that 200 years though. Wasn't the Luas built to spec for a 35 year lifespan or something like that? Honestly, underground in Ballymun is underground for the sake of it. There's plenty of examples of metros running at grade along similar routes, Ballymun and Dublin is no special snowflake.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    AngryLips wrote: »
    I think they got good value out of that 200 years though. Wasn't the Luas built to spec for a 35 year lifespan or something like that? Honestly, underground in Ballymun is underground for the sake of it. There's plenty of examples of metros running at grade along similar routes, Ballymun and Dublin is no special snowflake.
    Underground in Ballymun isn't exclusively about Ballymun. The purpose of this "Metro" is high frequency high capacity running between Dublin City Centre, DCU, Ballymun, the Airport, Swords and greenfield parts of North County Dublin that can be used for housing.

    Surface running in Ballymun is the equivilant of the at grade junctions built on the ex N25 in Cork that were fine when it opened but when it got busier they became major chokepoints. If you have 90m metros coming through Ballymun every 90 seconds what'll that do to the roads around Ballymun esp with the likes of Northwood and Ikea around? What'll happen is the high frequency running will be objected to because of the knock on effects.

    If this is to be a Metro build it as a Metro. Otherwise call it Luas North and get the **** on with it if that's what they want to do.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    AngryLips wrote: »
    I think they got good value out of that 200 years though. Wasn't the Luas built to spec for a 35 year lifespan or something like that? Honestly, underground in Ballymun is underground for the sake of it. There's plenty of examples of metros running at grade along similar routes, Ballymun and Dublin is no special snowflake.

    So solve the NTA's problem from them and square the circle . High speed , high frequency while maintaining access and safety


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    marno21 wrote: »
    Underground in Ballymun isn't exclusively about Ballymun. The purpose of this "Metro" is high frequency high capacity running between Dublin City Centre, DCU, Ballymun, the Airport, Swords and greenfield parts of North County Dublin that can be used for housing.

    Surface running in Ballymun is the equivilant of the at grade junctions built on the ex N25 in Cork that were fine when it opened but when it got busier they became major chokepoints. If you have 90m metros coming through Ballymun every 90 seconds what'll that do to the roads around Ballymun esp with the likes of Northwood and Ikea around? What'll happen is the high frequency running will be objected to because of the knock on effects.

    If this is to be a Metro build it as a Metro. Otherwise call it Luas North and get the **** on with it if that's what they want to do.

    You're talking about an over-engineered solution for a frequency of service not found outside world mega cities like London, over what will essentially be 3 level crossings covering a 2.5km stretch of north Dublin. The solution has worked successfully in Porto, Athens and other comparable cities yet somehow, Dublin is different. The argument only had credibility from a political standpoint but doesn't hold water from a planning POV.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    AngryLips wrote: »
    You're talking about an over-engineered solution for a frequency of service not found outside world mega cities like London, over what will essentially be 3 level crossings covering a 2.5km stretch of north Dublin. The solution has worked successfully in Porto, Athens and other comparable cities yet somehow, Dublin is different. The argument only had credibility from a political standpoint but doesn't hold water from a planning POV.

    You claim there is no demand for a frequency below 3 minutes. The luas frequency is between 3-5 minutes and is rammed at peak the new green line trams will be 54 meters long but will only add space for an additional 60 people it's basically maxed out


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,801 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    what are other options? How long is this section we are talking about?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,801 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    marno21 wrote: »
    Underground in Ballymun isn't exclusively about Ballymun. The purpose of this "Metro" is high frequency high capacity running between Dublin City Centre, DCU, Ballymun, the Airport, Swords and greenfield parts of North County Dublin that can be used for housing.

    Surface running in Ballymun is the equivilant of the at grade junctions built on the ex N25 in Cork that were fine when it opened but when it got busier they became major chokepoints. If you have 90m metros coming through Ballymun every 90 seconds what'll that do to the roads around Ballymun esp with the likes of Northwood and Ikea around? What'll happen is the high frequency running will be objected to because of the knock on effects.

    If this is to be a Metro build it as a Metro. Otherwise call it Luas North and get the **** on with it if that's what they want to do.
    the surface running, exacerbates the 60 v 90m trams and platorms though right? as at least with 90m, they dont have to run as frequently, its appearing to me, that the only cost "savings" are going to be gotten from surface / elevated v tunnel. Also in the airport, they mentioned that if great southern hotel chosen for stop, it would involve less tunnel. Just playing devils advocate, if there was en elevated enclosed walkway with travelator, to get you from terminal to this, would it be that bad? people are used to walking large distances in airports...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    Also in the airport, they mentioned that if great southern hotel chosen for stop, it would involve less tunnel. Just playing devils advocate, if there was en elevated enclosed walkway with travelator, to get you from terminal to this, would it be that bad? people are used to walking large distances in airports...

    In Schoenberg (one of Berlins Airports) it is a good 5-10min walk into the cold to the S-Bahn to the city. You wait on the cold exposed platform for the trains


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Idbatterim wrote: »
    if there was en elevated enclosed walkway with travelator, to get you from terminal to this, would it be that bad? people are used to walking large distances in airports...

    Would it be so bad? No. Would it be a less than optimal solution to save buttons ? Yes.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,880 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Can we get back on topic now, which is talking about Luas extensions? Thanks.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,801 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    new cherrywood town of 30,000 to be served by four existing luas stop. Surely it now makes sense for the council, to have a development plan in place for the extension to bray, so that similar schemes can be routed along its length?

    http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/biggest-ever-development-will-house-30000-35438925.html


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