Extending the Luas beyond Red, Green and BXD - see post #14

Rojomur

Now i know im getting ahead of myself with this post as i know planning for the likes of LUAS extensions takes decades/generations...but i cant help notice there is a destinct lack of future LUAS lines along where the majority of building has already taken place south of the liffey, and indeed where large scale building is already underway. A short 2km line from college green up townsend street-up to misery hill and over hanover quay would connect litterly thousands of workers and residents to the rest of the luas with very little effort. The council are trying their best to getting residents out of their cars with the College Green proposal but alternative transport along this section of the city is pretty poor. There are major building projects already underway and in planning along this route and its only a short hop over to the Gas Bottle site in ringsend which is gonna be devoleped at some point soon. The current proposal to knock Hawkins and Apollo house beside pearse street opens up the area for civic amenities to be close to the luas line as well as a connection to DART at Tara street. Just wondering has this route been considered by planners???

nowecant

Rojomur wrote: »

There are major building projects already underway and in planning along this route and its only a short hop over to the Gas Bottle site in ringsend which is gonna be devoleped at some point soon. The current proposal to knock Hawkins and Apollo house beside pearse street opens up the area for civic amenities to be close to the luas line as well as a connection to DART at Tara street. Just wondering has this route been considered by planners???

There is a plan to extend the Luas Red line back across the Liffey near the east link toll bridge and down into Irish town and close to the Irish Glass Bottle site. You can just about see it on one of the maps on this site http://utv.ie/News/2015/10/15/More-M50-tolls-part-of-Dublin-transport-plan-47039

It would be a great extension for both the north side and south side.

I would love to see them begin planning a further extension of the Green line from Broombridge into Finglas and maybe further out to the Airport in time. It would really do a lot for that area to be so easily connected to the major employment centres on the south side.

However I would not like to see this being done instead of a metro connection which sadly I believe will end up happening.

Rojomur

GREAT link 'nowecant'.... Just had a quick look at it. I see the extension you were talking about. I still think hanover quay and the Google side ot city is busy enough to warrant a line along townsend street and onward.. i think an extension from the Point Depot would connect the new Cruise Terminal planned for Alexandra docks to get Cruisers into the city...back to the Transport Strategy for the Greater Dublin Area from 2016 until 2035...it all looks great but one cant help thinking all these links/extensions and new routes could have been built when the country was awash with money 15 years ago!!! We need this transport infrastructure NOW, not 20 years time...cest la vie!!! The finglas link is probably next closest to be built next and would be great for that area. Interestingly the lucan link looks good too. I cant help thinking back to 2005 when i was looking at buying a house in lucan. Houses were being thrown up and sold off plans and on every single devolpment i went to see- the luas line was prime spot on the brochure. I would have felf foolish having believed the plans back then. ...had i bought....anyway i cant wait for the cross city to be finished. Im living on northside and this really opens up southside from connolly for me👍👍

nowecant

They also have plans for 2 more bridges across the Liffey and a public transport bridge across the mouth of the dodder which will increase connectivity in the area

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/council-to-tender-for-design-of-12m-liffey-bridge-1.2329894

"He said a new bridge across the River Dodder would be required to access the site."

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2016/0520/789733-strategic-development-zone/

I have seen rough proposals for some of them online but i cant seem to find any images right now

McAlban

nowecant wrote: »

They also have plans for 2 more bridges across the Liffey and a public transport bridge across the mouth of the dodder which will increase connectivity in the area

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/council-to-tender-for-design-of-12m-liffey-bridge-1.2329894

This Bridge will not go ahead unless DU does. It connects Forbes St., with the MGWR Station on North Wall, which is still owned by CIÉ. and was to be the original "Docklands" Station.

Carawaystick

Rojomur wrote: »

i think an extension from the Point Depot would connect the new Cruise Terminal planned for Alexandra docks to get Cruisers into the city...

Is this the Alexandra basin? which is just across the road from the Point Depot?
Are you proposing building a 150m extension of the red tram line? :rolleyes:

Rojomur

Well ya im saying that as part of the multi million Euro upgrade to the Alexandra basin project, the large Cruise ships are going to be right by the toll bridge in a new purpose built passenger terminal. Foreign passengers would be able to step straight off the ship and onto luas and be in city centre in 10 minutes. Dublin port reckons on over a 100 visiting cruise ships next year. Thats a lot of foot passengers to spend foreign money in the city. It would probably need to be over 1 km extension to go down the dock a bit. Although i know there are plans to build a large building beside the Point Depot so its not on the cards anyway. I was just saying it wiuld be a good idea all round. Ease of access for passengers and staff could only be a good thing for the city in general.

afatbollix

I'd would send it around to Eastpoint & then link it up with the dart at Clontarf. Get 3 birds with one luas so to speak.

spacetweek

Rojomur wrote: »

Well ya im saying that as part of the multi million Euro upgrade to the Alexandra basin project, the large Cruise ships are going to be right by the toll bridge in a new purpose built passenger terminal. Foreign passengers would be able to step straight off the ship and onto luas and be in city centre in 10 minutes. Dublin port reckons on over a 100 visiting cruise ships next year. Thats a lot of foot passengers to spend foreign money in the city. It would probably need to be over 1 km extension to go down the dock a bit. Although i know there are plans to build a large building beside the Point Depot so its not on the cards anyway. I was just saying it wiuld be a good idea all round. Ease of access for passengers and staff could only be a good thing for the city in general.

There is a large building (Exo) planned for right beside the Point but that won't stop the Luas extension happening. However it will have nothing to do with Alexandra basin. It's crossing the river alongside the Eastlink and serving the Irish Glass Bottle site.

Separately there is indeed a long term plan to extend Luas Line F (Lucan-Kilmainham-College Green) down Pearse Street as far as Pearse Station I believe or possibly further.

spacetweek

afatbollix wrote: »

I'd would send it around to Eastpoint & then link it up with the dart at Clontarf. Get 3 birds with one luas so to speak.

That's actually a pretty good idea, could have two branches one heading Point-Ringsend the other Point-Clontarf.

salmocab

Id presume getting back across the liffey at east link would mean a tunnel as opposed to a bridge.
Linking down to the new housing at IGB would be a good and far sighted move.

D.L.R.

afatbollix wrote: »

I'd would send it around to Eastpoint & then link it up with the dart at Clontarf. Get 3 birds with one luas so to speak.

I'd send it via the Connolly branch up Amiens st to Fairview instead, that's a busy corridor in its own right.

D.L.R.

"spacetweek wrote: »

Separately there is indeed a long term plan to extend Luas Line F (Lucan-Kilmainham-College Green) down Pearse Street as far as Pearse Station I believe or possibly further.

Not to mention actually building line F!

Sam Russell

Please post here for discussion on Luas extensions beyond the Green, Red and BXD.

JupiterKid

I was always under the impression that there were long term plans for a Luas line (a blue line) to connect the city centre with Lucan.

MJohnston

JupiterKid wrote: »

I was always under the impression that there were long term plans for a Luas line (a blue line) to connect the city centre with Lucan.

There were, and I think the currently proposed College Green Plaza even still makes accommodations for this happening in future.

seamus

I'd like to see long-term planning move away from the Green/Red idea where a specific set of tracks runs a specific line. Create more joins and loops, e.g. Dundrum to Tallaght, Milltown to Walkinstown, Ranelagh to Goldenbridge. This gives you the freedom to create routes in the same way the Tube does.

It would also mean that creating long routes then becomes much cheaper - e.g. you can have a light rail link from St. Vincent's hospital to Tallaght Hospital with just a small branch off the current Green line; one that doesn't have to go into the city and back out again.

And obviously Similar ideas on the Northside too - the current Red line should fork at Heuston - go up to drop people at the Zoo, then go on out to Blanch before looping back in to meet up with Broombridge.

BonkeyDonker

seamus wrote: »

I'd like to see long-term planning move away from the Green/Red idea where a specific set of tracks runs a specific line. Create more joins and loops, e.g. Dundrum to Tallaght, Milltown to Walkinstown, Ranelagh to Goldenbridge. This gives you the freedom to create routes in the same way the Tube does.

It would also mean that creating long routes then becomes much cheaper - e.g. you can have a light rail link from St. Vincent's hospital to Tallaght Hospital with just a small branch off the current Green line; one that doesn't have to go into the city and back out again.

And obviously Similar ideas on the Northside too - the current Red line should fork at Heuston - go up to drop people at the Zoo, then go on out to Blanch before looping back in to meet up with Broombridge.

That lowers capacity over the system as you end up with some sections with bottlenecks and others under utilised.

Look at the red line at present. From Belgarde to Busarus you can have a tram as often as every five minutes, but from Tallaght/Belgard is every ten minutes. Same for the Connolly/Busarus and The Point/Busarus.

Add you Phoenix park fork and you loose capacity from Heuston towards Belgarde - an even split 50% Belgarde 50% Blanch and you increase the current redline to 10/20 minute frequencies.

Sam Russell

BonkeyDonker wrote: »

That lowers capacity over the system as you end up with some sections with bottlenecks and others under utilised.

If the number of passengers is only between certain central stops, how can you justify high frequencies on the parts outside that. The Dart is currently a 15 min service from Bray to Howth Junc, but 30 minutes beyond that to Howth and Malahide. It would make sense to use shuttle services if that is necessary to keep service levels up - or split the train. Obviously it cannot be done with current trams, but overlapping routes would achieve the same.

iopener

What about a new line from Benburb street up Parkgate street, to the phoenix park , linking up with the navan road train station, a crossing over the n 3 and the m50 with a stop within the grounds of connelly hospital, up to the blanchardstown shopping centre terminating out in clonee. This new line could either use the existing red lines and head into the city centre or cross over the heuston bridge and head out to tallaght/ saggart. You pass a good few trip generators , like the dublin zoo , the navan road train station, connelly hospital, blanchardstown, with a stop at snugsborough road for access to the aquatic centre , BIT. Ebay.

afatbollix

A few months ago I made a map. I though about sharing it here but thought against it.


Anyway here goes

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pfL8qj8-zk-wYXUldeR8QZn-y_I&usp=sharing

I have tried to link up as much as possible. To think of it not as a line to a destination but as a link up to all transport.

Im not a expert or even live in the area anymore so I wouldn't take it that you could get a tram down where I have put on the map.

AngryLips

The plan to run part of line F along the existing Red line seems absurd from the POV that it will compromise service frequency on both lines

alias no.9

AngryLips wrote: »

The plan to run part of line F along the existing Red line seems absurd from the POV that it will compromise service frequency on both lines

Not that line F will happen any time soon, the shared section is completely segregated from the road and only has two road crossings at the Naas Road and Suir Road.

It's exactly the type of track section that should be shared as opposed to busaras to heuston which is approximately the same distance, has somewhere in the order of 15 sets of traffic lights and shares roadspace with other traffic in a couple of places.

It also gives the option of running trams from Tallaght/City West into College Green through the Liberties and trams from Lucan/Ballyfermot to the Point but always facilitates passengers changing at any of the shared stops to make that journey.

newacc2015

afatbollix wrote: »

A few months ago I made a map. I though about sharing it here but thought against it.


Anyway here goes

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pfL8qj8-zk-wYXUldeR8QZn-y_I&usp=sharing

I have tried to link up as much as possible. To think of it not as a line to a destination but as a link up to all transport.

Im not a expert or even live in the area anymore so I wouldn't take it that you could get a tram down where I have put on the map.

IMO I believe there should be more trams in the inner suburbs. The likes of Glasnevin, Drumcondra, Rathmines and Terenure are so close to the city. Yet the bus or car takes an age to get to the city. There should be more inner suburb trams, as they are so densely populated and congested.

Putting trams into the outer suburbs is needed too. It is also important to develop tram lines within the M50. There was a massive push to get the green line out into southside where there was little or no housing at the moment (I know the future is important etc). But why didnt policy makers try serve already densely populated areas first?

D.L.R.

newacc2015 wrote: »

IMO I believe there should be more trams in the inner suburbs. The likes of Glasnevin, Drumcondra, Rathmines and Terenure are so close to the city. Yet the bus or car takes an age to get to the city. There should be more inner suburb trams, as they are so densely populated and congested.

Putting trams into the outer suburbs is needed too. It is also important to develop tram lines within the M50. There was a massive push to get the green line out into southside where there was little or no housing at the moment (I know the future is important etc). But why didnt policy makers try serve already densely populated areas first?

Agree with the central city focus of the tram network. Would be great to have several tram lines running around the city and inner suburbs.

But I don't think trams work so well on the long suburban routes. They become too full and too slow and become a bus on rails. We need railway or metro for the outer suburbs imo.

LeinsterDub

afatbollix wrote: »

A few months ago I made a map. I though about sharing it here but thought against it.


Anyway here goes

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1pfL8qj8-zk-wYXUldeR8QZn-y_I&usp=sharing

Is there a reason you ignore most of the North side?

salmocab

newacc2015 wrote: »

Putting trams into the outer suburbs is needed too. It is also important to develop tram lines within the M50. There was a massive push to get the green line out into southside where there was little or no housing at the moment (I know the future is important etc). But why didnt policy makers try serve already densely populated areas first?

The green line was an easy build with the old train line land so they opted for the easiest route possible.
The red line whilst more difficult uses the canal for a good chunk of its route and the strip of land by Rialto so that stretch was relatively straightforward.

Its effectively the reason the BXD goes along the phibsboro route as the existing route is easier than going fully on the road.

Im not knocking this by the way, it does make sense. Densely populated areas may not have a suitable route as I would think that as trams get away from the city centre they are looking to go faster so off street is needed.

Is there any obvious routes north side that could be utilized?

Van.Bosch

salmocab wrote: »

newacc2015 wrote: »

Putting trams into the outer suburbs is needed too. It is also important to develop tram lines within the M50. There was a massive push to get the green line out into southside where there was little or no housing at the moment (I know the future is important etc). But why didnt policy makers try serve already densely populated areas first?

The green line was an easy build with the old train line land so they opted for the easiest route possible.
The red line whilst more difficult uses the canal for a good chunk of its route and the strip of land by Rialto so that stretch was relatively straightforward.

Its effectively the reason the BXD goes along the phibsboro route as the existing route is easier than going fully on the road.

Im not knocking this by the way, it does make sense. Densely populated areas may not have a suitable route as I would think that as trams get away from the city centre they are looking to go faster so off street is needed.

Is there any obvious routes north side that could be utilized?

Malahide Road to Artane or Coolock

newacc2015

salmocab wrote: »

The green line was an easy build with the old train line land so they opted for the easiest route possible.
The red line whilst more difficult uses the canal for a good chunk of its route and the strip of land by Rialto so that stretch was relatively straightforward.

Its effectively the reason the BXD goes along the phibsboro route as the existing route is easier than going fully on the road.

Im not knocking this by the way, it does make sense. Densely populated areas may not have a suitable route as I would think that as trams get away from the city centre they are looking to go faster so off street is needed.

Is there any obvious routes north side that could be utilized?

All the bus number eg 11,13 & 19 etc were all original tramlines that followed the exact same routes that the buses now do. There are plenty of really wide roads around Phisboro, Glasnevin, Drumcondra, Rathmines etc that could take trams. It would involve less parking etc.

IMO the 11 is an obvious line that should be converted to Luas. Most of the roads to and from the city are wide enough for it. It would connect UCD, DCU and St Pats to the City. Although most of this route was going to be covered by the Metro North.

Another route is running the BXD line to Finglas. Finglas has a ton of free development land that could house a sizeable amount of residents. A lot of Finglas is industrial estates from the 1970/1980s which are no longer fit for purpose. Finglas is really close to the city

IMO the most important area which needs to be connected to the city is UCD. It is insane that a massive university has no proper links to the City. The traffic congestion in the surrounding area is so horrific, that a luas line is needed. The area really needs either an evaluated tram or a metro. An evaluated metro was shelved in Ballymun due to lobbying, I cant imagine how much more vocal residents will be around UCD. A cut and cover Metro is possible with the bypass. But it would cause the area to go to a standstill

MJohnston

Thanks to moving into a new house, I've been up through Ballymun a lot recently (and come back with a lot of cardboard) and it seems to me that the majority of the Ballymun road would easily accommodate a Luas line using the median and/or one of the existing traffic lanes (this whole road seems rather over engineered imo).

riadach

If you check out the alignment maps for the BXD from lower Grafton Street to Eden Quay, you'll see that there are the beginnings of lines which will form part of the future Line F to Lucan.

MJohnston

riadach wrote: »

If you check out the alignment maps for the BXD from lower Grafton Street to Eden Quay, you'll see that there are the beginnings of lines which will form part of the future Line F to Lucan.

There are mentions of it in the College Green plans too,

D.L.R.

riadach wrote: »

If you check out the alignment maps for the BXD from lower Grafton Street to Eden Quay, you'll see that there are the beginnings of lines which will form part of the future Line F to Lucan.

We're missing an opportunity terminating Line F at College Green. Should be carrying on through to Pearse and Googleland.

Sam Russell

newacc2015 wrote: »

IMO the most important area which needs to be connected to the city is UCD. It is insane that a massive university has no proper links to the City. The traffic congestion in the surrounding area is so horrific, that a luas line is needed. The area really needs either an evaluated tram or a metro. An evaluated metro was shelved in Ballymun due to lobbying, I cant imagine how much more vocal residents will be around UCD. A cut and cover Metro is possible with the bypass. But it would cause the area to go to a standstill

Wasn't there a reserved link through St Helen's (now the Radisson) linking UCD down to the Rock Road? That woud make a great spur - either for Dart (or Luas if connecting to the Green Line at Milltown).

jd

MJohnston wrote: »

Thanks to moving into a new house, I've been up through Ballymun a lot recently (and come back with a lot of cardboard) and it seems to me that the majority of the Ballymun road would easily accommodate a Luas line using the median and/or one of the existing traffic lanes (this whole road seems rather over engineered imo).

This is where "Optimised" Metro North will be.

marno21

jd wrote: »

This is where "Optimised" Metro North will be.

They are planning on running the Metro North through the median of the R108? Are you serious?

jd

marno21 wrote: »

They are planning on running the Metro North through the median of the R108? Are you serious?

Yes, unfortunately.



https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/new-metro-north-will-best-address-future-transport-needs-in-swords-and-fingal-region-nta-new-line-to-run-underground-in-city-centre-and-to-serve-airport/

fionnsci

I don't suppose anyone knows of/has created a map of what Dublin will (i.e. could) look like when (i.e. if) this is all completed? Metro North, Dart Underground, Luas BXD, Luas to Lucan, Red Line extension to Poolbeg, on one map. I'd love to play make believe.

Also, does anyone else find the fact that all the different rail systems will have different names to be a little frustrating? I know it's largely superficial but I can imagine tourists in particular being confused with talk of Luas, Dart and Metro. I wonder would they ever try to bring them all under one brand or two, based on whether it's light rail/heavy.

MJohnston

They just need to stop referring to the method of transport, and highlight the destination or the line. Imo there's already scope for rebranding the Red Line to denote the different Saggart/Tallaght services - take a look at the Washington DC Metro for example, where the Yellow Line shares much of its duration with the Green (and then Blue) lines, or the Orange and Silver lines which are essentially the same aside from spurs.

Of course, in an ideal world, the DART and Luas would share naming conventions so tourists could glance and know, but I'd guess that'll never happen.

salmocab

jd wrote: »

Yes, unfortunately.



https://www.nationaltransport.ie/news/new-metro-north-will-best-address-future-transport-needs-in-swords-and-fingal-region-nta-new-line-to-run-underground-in-city-centre-and-to-serve-airport/

With the stops that far apart maybe they could have a Luas running beside it to get people to their stop:)

That username is already in use.

fionnsci wrote: »

I don't suppose anyone knows of/has created a map of what Dublin will (i.e. could) look like when (i.e. if) this is all completed?

There's this map from Skyscapercity.

https://goo.gl/1pZyNj

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1712381

AngryLips

Wasn't the median built with the intention of facilitating a metro line? What's the problem

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

Wasn't the median built with the intention of facilitating a metro line? What's the problem

Capacity , speed, access and public safety

AngryLips

This doesn't seem to be a problem in other cities, or with Luas. Given that it's anticipated as part of the layout, I imagine most of those concerns have been designed out.

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

This doesn't seem to be a problem in other cities, or with Luas. Given that it's anticipated as part of the layout, I imagine most of those concerns have been designed out.

The Luas isn't a Metro. MN is meant to be closer to the underground in London than a tram.

It was intended to have a 90 second service and 90 meter trains.
A 90 second services means a 90 meter train passing a given point on average every 45 seconds. If we want to run a Luas up the median that's fine but it will have shorter trams, lower speeds, be less frequent and stopping at traffic lights leading to longer journey times

jd

AngryLips wrote: »

This doesn't seem to be a problem in other cities, or with Luas. Given that it's anticipated as part of the layout, I imagine most of those concerns have been designed out.

Originally they thought they'd have a segregated elevated metro.
This didn't go down well with the locals so plan was then to tunnel as far as Santry Avenue.
Some old back ground at http://www.irishtimes.com/news/rpa-prefers-central-ballymun-route-for-dublin-s-metro-line-north-1.1039563

AngryLips

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The Luas isn't a Metro. MN is meant to be closer to the underground in London than a tram.

It was intended to have a 90 second service and 90 meter trains.

The reality is that there won't be deman for frequencies under 3 minutes per direction any time in the foreseeable future though. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

Dardania

AngryLips wrote: »

LeinsterDub wrote: »

The Luas isn't a Metro. MN is meant to be closer to the underground in London than a tram.  

It was intended to have a 90 second service and 90 meter trains.

The reality is that there won't be deman for frequencies under 3 minutes per direction any time in the foreseeable future though. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

I was talking with some colleagues lately, what is essence of good engineering. And the consensus was: in designing a system, how the designer matches peak demand to average demand, with a fixed capacity, is a great way to judge the quality of a designer. 

Comes up in many fields e.g. at peak load, combustion machines are most efficient, but how efficient are they at part load.
Back on topic - the demand is there, but maybe Dublin Bus will continue to provide some of the capacity also...

lawred2

AngryLips wrote: »

The reality is that there won't be deman for frequencies under 3 minutes per direction any time in the foreseeable future though. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

It's nearly 200 years since discussions began on a London Underground.

I wonder were they thinking about short term demand at that time?

LeinsterDub

AngryLips wrote: »

The reality is that there won't be deman for frequencies under 3 minutes per direction any time in the foreseeable future though. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

The reality is if we build it limited to frequencies of 3 minutes that's all we'll get where as if it's built to handle 90 second frequency we don't have to use it initially

AngryLips

lawred2 wrote: »

It's nearly 200 years since discussions began on a London Underground.

I wonder were they thinking about short term demand at that time?

I think they got good value out of that 200 years though. Wasn't the Luas built to spec for a 35 year lifespan or something like that? Honestly, underground in Ballymun is underground for the sake of it. There's plenty of examples of metros running at grade along similar routes, Ballymun and Dublin is no special snowflake.