N4 - Carrick-on-Shannon to Dromod [route options published]

KrisW1001

@marno21 explained that re-use, but here's a typical example of what that existing corridor looks like: N4 - Google Maps

There are still quite a few direct entrances on this route, which will need parallel access roads to deal with. However, the preferred corridor is 300 metres wide, and the final land-take for a 2+2 (the widest conceivable road type to be built here, and the most likely) is around 20~25 metres including earthworks fencing and verges. That does allow for a new road that isn't just a simple widening of the existing road, but for much of its length there are signs that the existing N4 here has wide strips of unused land beside it that could allow an online widening without the need to purchase more land.

But even at 300 metres width, The preferred corridor still doesn't leave much space to go around Aghamore: Here's a rough sketch of where the corridor sits on an aerial view:

cartoncowboy

Looks like the locals are not happy with whats proposed - Opposition groups forming..

New group formed following “disappointing” N4 public bypass display - Leitrim Live (leitrimobserver.ie)

KrisW1001

That whole article is so badly written that it’s hard to make what anyone actually said or asked for. As far as I can tell, there are three complaints:

• people will having a divided road at the end of their driveway, and will have to use parallel access roads to join or cross it. The only reply to this is really: tough **** mate, you built your house with an exit onto a national primary route - did you imagine it would never have to be widened?
• some of the traffic surveys were performed during lockdown, and can’t give a real indication of real traffic numbers. Yes, they can: you scale the data up by the differences you see elsewehre in the project, and in the region, since end of lockdown. Even if they were done at normal traffic levels, these are only ever estimates based on a limited period of sampling, and the data is never taken at face value.
• the lack of clarity about what will happen at Aughamore, as widening the current road is impossible. To this, I agree 100%. It’s ridiculous that they didn’t officially show a much wider corridor here, as the amount provided in the plans does not allow for any reasonable bypass of this village.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119182700#Comment_119182700

Can we assume then that there will be no complaints about dividing communities, destroying livelihoods, etc. with a new-build offline route through farmland?

marno21

https://www.etenders.gov.ie/epps/cft/prepareViewCfTWS.do?resourceId=2044004

Tender out for ground investigation

marno21

https://carrickdromod.ie/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/274219-ARUP-ZZ-XX-FN-ZM-000007.pdf

Project now being prioritized around the fantasies of the Minister.

KrisW1001

I know the traditional argument against bypasses is that you end up with a rosary-bead alignment, but that isn't going to happen here, because the bypass sections that are built are designed as part of longer schemes that can be constructed later.

If the minister wasn’t from the Green Party, you’d be all for this as a way of getting something delivered on a limited budget. And yes, the budget is limited, and that’s nothing to do with Eamon Ryan either...

L1011

At least something is being done - this will have huge impacts on a trip i take frequently. It'll make Expressway to Sligo a lot more consistent too

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120921819#Comment_120921819

Indeed. I know it’s some time out, and will be under a different Government but the bulk of roads capital funding is during the period 2026-2030. There is currently 2 projects advancing with planning not at tender, so there will definitely be budget there at that stage to do the entire N4 project by then. The eastern 11.5km pruned from this project is also an online upgrade, so cheaper.

marno21

Rather than a complaint about Ryan etc, my one issue with cutting back schemes like this is that many of them have a high value add component and some low value add parts. The obvious high value add part here is the Carrick bypass, however the project also includes 11.5km of safety upgrades to the east, improving both safety and capacity, and removing a gap between 2 dual carriageways. If you take out the Carrick bypass part the eastern section becomes less attractive to develop on its own

Same as in Cork, they could have built an 8km Macroom bypass and be done with it but instead we’re getting a 22km bypass of 2 towns and removing some bad sections in between. A much better outcome

road_high

If the Carrick bypass could even be completed that alone is a huge win- either side of it is very high quality road (albeit single carriageway) - the N4 would be completely “new” as far as Newtownforbes

Jayuu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120974215#Comment_120974215

Yeah - had to drive through it on the Bank Holiday weekend. Even a bypass (much as I hate piecemeal approaches) would be a vast improvement to what's there at the moment.

marno21

https://www.ireland-live.ie/news/leitrim-live/1362828/2029-before-work-commences-on-carrick-bypass.html

Off to ABP in early 2025.

marno21

Latest on this project

https://carrickdromod.ie/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/274219-ARUP-03-XX-PP-Z-000001.pdf

Project has been hacked down from 21km to 5.8km and now consists of a Type 2 dual around the town with 3 roundabouts

Weirdly the R368 junction in the middle of the scheme will feature a roundabout on the mainline with a link to the R368 with the new road crossing over the existing R368.

The remaining 16km of upgrades can wait until sufficient people get killed on the route for it to be deemed worthwhile to upgrade it.

L1011

Leitrim CC and and Roscommon CC will have the town built up beyond those roundabouts within five years; making this useless and need bypassing again.

The wide non-DC section between the end of this and the start of the Dromod bypass will be deathtraps as significant numbers of drivers will drive like its still DC, forcing their way past in to oncoming traffic.

There's already people who overtake dangerously when other drivers slow down for Aghamore.

marno21

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004051#Comment_122004051

Remarkable now, you'll have 2 stretches of Type 2 dual carriageway, both of which have 3 roundabouts in a short stretch, with inbetween a single carriageway with a GSJ on it.

It'll be a mess that'll likely have to be revisited down the road again.

Paddico

Brutal …. but

anything is better than nothing

Shoog

The issue has always been the poor quality of the land, the Shannon and it's floodplains and the restriction placed by the path of the rail line. They are running it right along the rail corridor to avoid crossing it.

Its a nightmare since the proposed path will inevitably get bogged down in objections from the wealthy houses it will run past. I expect it to be pushed to a public enquiry before it gets built. It will be years yet.

Pete_Cavan

The days of the c.20km project are gone. Even what is proposed here will be very expensive due to the bridge across the Shannon. People should be prepared for similar on other schemes, regardless of who is MfT.

What I don't get is the inclusion of a roundabout in the middle. The link road goes under the rail line but will then have to rise sharply to get to the level of the road. The road will likely be practically the same level as the rail line, they are only about 50m apart at that point and both cross the R368 thereafter. The inclusion of a roundabout would seem more difficult than creating a LILO with one carriageway going under the new road.

I also don't think the proposed "new urban street" will see much traffic. For very few people would it be more attractive than the existing road, particularly with the signal controlled junction in the middle. It really should be extended to the new roundabout at the eastern end of the bypass allowing it to function as a northern distributor. Then the existing N4 west of there could be narrowed and right turn lanes removed, which would make the new road a more attractive alternative.

Development around the new bypass wont be an issue. The river, it's floodplains, the rail line and the new road mean there's very little developable land there. Expansion of the town will be on the northern side and this project could better facilitate that.

marno21

The days of the c.20km project are gone. Even what is proposed here will be very expensive due to the bridge across the Shannon. People should be prepared for similar on other schemes, regardless of who is MfT.

The balance 16km of this scheme would be rather cheap on a per km basis. It's mainly a safety upgrade of the 90s era WS2, some of which is grade separated.

A sane MoT would look at the facts around road safety and realise we have a particular issue with 90s era WS2, which has too many accesses and dangerous speed and overtaking along the route. Several interventions have been made or recommended recently to address these deficiencies. The number of accesses between Carrick and Dromod on this scheme was flagged in the early brochures I'm fairly sure.

Unfortunately, such an upgrade would also make the journey from Dublin to Sligo easier so it has to be immediately dismissed for the planetary destruction it would cause.

KrisW1001

The choice isn't "upgrade this 1990s road or do nothing". It's "upgrade this 1990s road, or use the money to address the safety of pre-1980s national and regional roads instead".

This road upgrade would be low priority no matter who is in charge. Only when the deathtraps have been removed from the secondary network (and there are plenty of those in the Northwest) should we consider upgrading a road that is already up to an acceptable standard.

I get it that you don't like Eamon Ryan or the Green attitude to road building, but filling this perceived gap in road quality is in no way an urgent project. No minister of any party would push this upgrade ahead of other roads in the area that are clearly substandard.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122009772#Comment_122009772

The urban street is a sop and even a disgenious lie. Its a link road from the Leitrim road to the Dublin side of the N4, it's purpose is to relieve traffic going into a busy town centre junction. It is not what it claims to be.

spacetweek

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122021768#Comment_122021768

The urban street layout is shown on Page 5 and is clearly intended to support town development. This is a good thing as Irish towns too often use the conventional country lane network to support expansion of their urbanised areas instead of building new town roads.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122021768#Comment_122021768

I agree that that is a stupid name but I don't think it will be an effective link to the Dublin side of the N4 unless it is extended further east. As proposed, anyone using it to go east of the town will still have to use the Castlecara road roundabout, expect now you'll be giving way to anyone coming the "old route" plus you could have to wait at traffic lights on your way there. I don't see it relieving much traffic tbh.