UN Findings - when will the Eighth be repealed?

Parchment

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0609/794304-abortion-law-un/
How soon do you think we will have a referendum on this? Will Irish women ever get their fundamental human rights in the lifetime of this government?

fits

Its a legally binding ruling and the government have to respond meaningfully to it this year. However with the parliament we have, I am not sure how far things will get.

angeldelight

It is such an exceedingly frustrating issue. There's a whole generation of us who have not had our chance to vote on this

lazygal

I'm not holding my breath. Any repeal will be extremely difficult and we'll have pro life money and time used liberally. And whatever replaces it will be very, very restrictive.
After two pregnancies in Ireland I'm scared to be pregnant here again. Maternity services suffer because of the eighth amendment.

Parchment

fits wrote: »

Its a legally binding ruling and the government have to respond meaningfully to it this year. However with the parliament we have, I am not sure how far things will get.

Its non-binding actually.

sunshine and showers

angeldelight wrote: »

It is such an exceedingly frustrating issue. There's a whole generation of us who have not had our chance to vote on this

At this stage, no women currently of childbearing age have voted on it. Barring any exceptions who are having babies at 50 years of age.

ted1

sunshine and showers wrote: »

At this stage, no women currently of childbearing age have voted on it. Barring any exceptions who are having babies at 50 years of age.

Or men.
UN findings aren't legally binding any carry little weight. Notice how Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Russia etc get ignored.

Lyaiera

ted1 wrote: »

Or men.

There's very few men of childbearing age.

sullivlo

ted1 wrote: »

Or men.
UN findings aren't legally binding any carry little weight. Notice how Saudi Arabia, Quatar, Russia etc get ignored.

Mod

Just a little reminder ted1 (& all other posters), that TLL is a place for the discussion of topics from a women's perspective. If you want to start a thread on the impact of the 8th amendment on men, I suggest The Gentlemans Club.

Das Kitty

I think it might be sooner than we think, tbh. Enda is stalling while we're in this temporary government. He's putting together this citizens' committee rubbishy so he'll have some sort of BS response for the UN about action taken. You just know that fecking committee is going to be half Iona heads, even though they're clearly the noisy minority.

BUT, I reckon we'll have a vote in next couple of years, and I reckon the vote will favour repealing.

sullivlo

Das Kitty wrote: »

I think it might be sooner than we think, tbh. Enda is stalling while we're in this temporary government. He's putting together this citizens' committee rubbishy so he'll have some sort of BS response for the UN about action taken. You just know that fecking committee is going to be half Iona heads, even though they're clearly the noisy minority.

BUT, I reckon we'll have a vote in next couple of years, and I reckon the vote will favour repealing.

I'm having odd dreams recently. Very long story.

I *think* I heard an interview with Enda on the wireless last night where he said they'd discuss it but that they didn't want to rush a decision to put it to the electorate under pressure from the opposition, as he reckoned it would be Lisbon Mark 2 and that repealing wouldn't pass as not enough people would understand the question and they don't know what to replace it with.

That could have been a dream though :pac:

Fwiw, I think there will be an election soon. However I think the repealing of the 8th will entirely depend on what they propose to replace it with. If it was written in terms of "abortions for all" (& miniature American flags for others), then I don't think it would pass. However if it were to include rape, incest, FFA, etc etc then it might scrape past.

My reasons for thinking that? Quite simply my social circle / colleagues. Many of them are rational beings who agree that it should be repealed and that abortion should be available on demand. However a significant number of them think that it should only be in certain cases, and some are vehemently pro life.

Combined with the "older" vote, the fact that the "no" campaign will play bully tactics, and voter apathy amongst the young folk, I think it will struggle. The marriage equality passed, but by a tighter margin than polls suggested. That was because everyone knew someone who is in a same sex relationship. But very few can relate in a similar way to abortion.

eviltwin

I wonder if he's waiting for the result of the Brexit vote next week and how a vote to Leave might impact issues like this here?

sullivlo

eviltwin wrote: »

I wonder if he's waiting for the result of the Brexit vote next week and how a vote to Leave might impact issues like this here?

Imagine you needed a visa to have access to an abortion.

Dolbert

sullivlo wrote: »

I'm having odd dreams recently. Very long story.

I *think* I heard an interview with Enda on the wireless last night where he said they'd discuss it but that they didn't want to rush a decision to put it to the electorate under pressure from the opposition, as he reckoned it would be Lisbon Mark 2 and that repealing wouldn't pass as not enough people would understand the question and they don't know what to replace it with.

That could have been a dream though :pac:

Fwiw, I think there will be an election soon. However I think the repealing of the 8th will entirely depend on what they propose to replace it with. If it was written in terms of "abortions for all" (& miniature American flags for others), then I don't think it would pass. However if it were to include rape, incest, FFA, etc etc then it might scrape past.

My reasons for thinking that? Quite simply my social circle / colleagues. Many of them are rational beings who agree that it should be repealed and that abortion should be available on demand. However a significant number of them think that it should only be in certain cases, and some are vehemently pro life.

Combined with the "older" vote, the fact that the "no" campaign will play bully tactics, and voter apathy amongst the young folk, I think it will struggle. The marriage equality passed, but by a tighter margin than polls suggested. That was because everyone knew someone who is in a same sex relationship. But very few can relate in a similar way to abortion.

This. The government don't want to put this to a referendum until they're sure it will pass. You'd be wrong to assume that it was a given. I'd be confident that the 8th amendment would be repealed if it came to a public vote, but actually legislating for abortion not so much.

Stheno

sunshine and showers wrote: »

At this stage, no women currently of childbearing age have voted on it. Barring any exceptions who are having babies at 50 years of age.

Ah I'm 42 and remember voting in the referendum after the X case when I was in college

sunshine and showers

Stheno wrote: »

sunshine and showers wrote: »

At this stage, no women currently of childbearing age have voted on it. Barring any exceptions who are having babies at 50 years of age.

Ah I'm 42 and remember voting in the referendum after the X case when I was in college

The X case referendums were about further restricting access to abortion. I was more talking about voting on whether it should be legalised/opening access to it. I meant the 1983 vote.

Pat Mustard

According to Minister for Children, Katherine Zappone, the end of 2017 is a realistic date for the referendum.

Enda Kenny thinks that a referendum wouldn't be passed if it was held sooner, it seems.
“My view is that if we were to decide to have a referendum to repeal the Eighth Amendment in October, it would not be passed,” he said.

I don't know why he has also pointed out that the UNHR Committee finding is non-binding, though. An unhelpful statement by the Taoiseach.

meeeeh

Pat Mustard wrote: »

I don't know why he has also pointed out that the UNHR Committee finding is non-binding, though. An unhelpful statement by the Taoiseach.

Probably to let everyone know they will ignore it. Abortion referendum would be very much on the agenda anyway but I think Enda is making damn sure that there is no chance of referendum in autumn or winter. I suspect neither FF or FG don't want to have it anywhere near possible election if the budget falls.

allym

sullivlo wrote: »

The marriage equality passed, but by a tighter margin than polls suggested. That was because everyone knew someone who is in a same sex relationship. But very few can relate in a similar way to abortion.

That they know of. Statistics would imply that everyone knows someone who has had an abortion, however the shame associated with it means that a lot of people wouldn't disclose this.

So I think that most people probably can relate to it they just don't realise it yet.

sullivlo

allym wrote: »

That they know of. Statistics would imply that everyone knows someone who has had an abortion, however the shame associated with it means that a lot of people wouldn't disclose this.

So I think that most people probably can relate to it they just don't realise it yet.

Yeah, sorry, I meant to edit that to reflect that we all likely know someone who has had an abortion. Off the top of my head I know of 3 people who have travelled. But due to the shame surrounding what is essentially a medical procedure, nobody will be open about it so people probably won't vote accordingly. Some of the abuse that the pro-life campaign are giving out to people who have had abortions is horrendous, so I don't blame people for not wanting to tell people.

meeeeh

It's different. You are gay whole life, while abortion is one off experience. While people might be friends with someone who had it, they could disagree with abortion. It wouldn't affect the relationship or how they vote because it's a temporary thing. There is always reasoning that women can still travel so their life won't be adversely affected. (I know that is not true but it's always possible to rationalize opposition to abortion in that way).

sullivlo

meeeeh wrote: »

It's different. You are gay whole life, while abortion is one off experience. While people might be friends with someone who had it, they could disagree with abortion. It wouldn't affect the relationship or how they vote because it's a temporary thing. There is always reasoning that women can still travel so their life won't be adversely affected. (I know that is not true but it's always possible to rationalize opposition to abortion in that way).

I entirely wholeheartedly disagree with the bolded part.

Taking away abortion for choice / unwanted pregnancy. The idea of a pregnancy with FFA and the woman having to travel for treatment, and to risk prosecution for a medical procedure. Then the cost - it's not cheap to travel any more. The health risks of getting on a flight whilst bleeding.

I could continue with ways lives are effected by having to travel.

I also don't see much difference between abortion and gay marriage tbh. Don't want an abortion? Don't have one.

I am pro life. 100%. I personally, currently, can't think of a situation where I would personally have an abortion. But why should my PERSONAL beliefs impact somebody else's life?

It's not as if by repealing the 8th that everyone will be forced to have an abortion. It just opens up doors for women to access the procedure without travelling or without the shame or stigma.

30 years ago it was a crime to be gay. Racism was fully acceptable too.

Don't all those people who protested all those years ago look silly now.

meeeeh

I didn't say I agree with the sentiment. But it's easy for someone who is pro life to rationalize that way even though someone they know might be affected by abortion. I'm not going into unnecessary abortion squabbles because unavailability of abortion is completely alien to me and I don't have right to vote to change that. My point is you can wheel out all the personal stories and they probably will help in case of fetal fatal abnormalities, incest or rape (good luck getting many to talk about that) but general availability of abortion will be much tougher sell. I just don't believe that personal aspect will be as effective as in gay marriage referendum. Especially because providers will drag personal stories into debates too and probably effectively up to a point. I'm firm believer into abortion on demand up to certain time and with medical certification after that but I was crying in the car (and I don't cry often) listening to a story of abortion survivor on Pat Kenny couple of weeks ago. I could see how someone could be swayed the other way listening to that.

Anyway I just don't believe the situation is that comparable to the other referendum, I think this one will have to be won more appealing rationally than emotionally. I hope I am clear enough now so I don't end up being accused to be like racists, bigots and I don't know who else again.

lazygal

The eighth amendment is not solely or even mainly about abortion. It is about treating girls and women as though they are exactly equal to a zygote. It affects maternity care, decision making and autonomy during pregnancy and the right of women to choose what's best for them without interference during pregnancy, labour and birth. Abortion should be part of normal OB-GYN services in Ireland. I used to think 'no way, never would I want to have an abortion', now I am almost certain I would want an abortion in some circumstances. I can access abortion services easily, it would be an inconvenience but I have the money and ability to travel. The eighth amendment only stops poor women or those unable to travel from having abortions and affects the maternity care of every single pregnant female in Ireland.

sullivlo

meeeeh wrote: »

I didn't say I agree with the sentiment. But it's easy for someone who is pro life to rationalize that way even though someone they know might be affected by abortion. I'm not going into unnecessary abortion squabbles because unavailability of abortion is completely alien to me and I don't have right to vote to change that. My point is you can wheel out all the personal stories and they probably will help in case of fetal fatal abnormalities, incest or rape (good luck getting many to talk about that) but general availability of abortion will be much tougher sell. I just don't believe that personal aspect will be as effective as in gay marriage referendum. Especially because providers will drag personal stories into debates too and probably effectively up to a point. I'm firm believer into abortion on demand up to certain time and with medical certification after that but I was crying in the car (and I don't cry often) listening to a story of abortion survivor on Pat Kenny couple of weeks ago. I could see how someone could be swayed the other way listening to that.

Anyway I just don't believe the situation is that comparable to the other referendum, I think this one will have to be won more appealing rationally than emotionally. I hope I am clear enough now so I don't end up being accused to be like racists, bigots and I don't know who else again.

I apologise if that is what you took from my post. It most certainly wasn't intended to accuse you of being racist or bigoted. I was responding to the section which I emboldened. The section which you also said you disagreed with. It was a general response to your sentiment rather than an accusation directed towards you.

Sapphire

meeeeh wrote: »

I didn't say I agree with the sentiment. But it's easy for someone who is pro life to rationalize that way even though someone they know might be affected by abortion.

True. And I think there is a whiff of privilege off folk like that. It's this image being trotted out that all abortion-seekers are young women in their twenties being irresponsible and just want an abortion so it wont interfere with their summer in Ibiza, and so if they are that selfish they can spend their own money and go off to Manchester and nobody should lift a finger to help the dirty slut her.

But what about the woman who is too poor to travel? The refugee who doesn't have the right to travel freely like white Irish girls do. The mum who has nobody to mind her other kids while she overnights in the UK. The woman who is the sole carer for an ill relative and cant leave for more than a couple of hours at a time. The rape victim. The FFA mum. The miscarrying mum. These women have valid reasons for needing a clinic within an hours drive of her home and be able to get home to recuperate after a procedure. I'd imagine that the women in the waiting room of clinics are much more diverse than the pro-lifer's assume.

Another demographic of pro-lifers I'm seeing online especially are young men and I cant help but wonder if some of that stems from an angry misogynistic mindset. That they oppose having access to abortion here because they like the idea of forcing a woman to bear a child she never wanted. It's punishment for women liking sex, or having sex. Comeuppance.

meeeeh

I might be wrong but to me it actually seems that women drive the pro life movement. Or maybe they decided it's more effective to put women at the forefront of it in the media appearances. I even know what type of women it will be, they will be softly spoken, they will talk about love, understanding and support constantly and practice none.

Sapphire

Like our openly pro-life female TD's.

lazygal

meeeeh wrote: »

I might be wrong but to me it actually seems that women drive the pro life movement. Or maybe they decided it's more effective to put women at the forefront of it in the media appearances. I even know what type of women it will be, they will be softly spoken, they will talk about love, understanding and support constantly and practice none.

Well, when women like Breda O'Brien openly say she'd force her raped child to continue a pregnancy should the circumstances arise, I'm not surprised by the women who oppose all abortions.
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/despite-some-awful-dilemmas-abortion-is-not-an-option-1.727607

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

The pro-life movement wheel out the women and the young people to be the public face. They're many things but they're not stupid enough to not see that having old men be the face of the movement doesn't play well.

If you look at photos of pro life rallies, you see the crowd of heads getting greyer the further back it goes

Parchment

Allie Fresh Sauerkraut wrote: »

The pro-life movement wheel out the women and the young people to be the public face. They're many things but they're not stupid enough to not see that having old men be the face of the movement doesn't play well.

If you look at photos of pro life rallies, you see the crowd of heads getting greyer the further back it goes

They always put the younger pretty women/girls to the front - ALWAYS! and it becomes a sea of grey after about 2/3 rows of marchers.

Honestly - i dont see an referendum passing. It breaks my heart as i am 100% pro-choice. Its very hard to see yourself being classed as a second class citizen in your own country. Its very hard to see other people making decisions about your health and wellbeing - many of them men.

I am involved in a pro-choice group and attend some of the rallies but often i feel like just blocking the whole issue out of my head as it hurts my heart too much to think about it. Its so depressing to see women have to fight for this in a first world country in 2016, to see our lives governed by men and religion still.

*sigh*

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I think it's a-coming. The kind of things Enda, Leo and others have been saying over the past six months would have been frankly unthinkable five years ago. The details of stories like Miss Y and that poor brain-dead woman ending up in the news have shown people what having the 8th in the constitution means, beyond just no abortion 'on demand' (god I hate that phrase). It's also not as taboo a topic as it was previously, though obviously it's still not exactly small talk. Women being willing to talk about their abortions, probably especially the women who've had FFA pregnancies, is making a difference. And not to put too fine a point on it, but as the older generations die off, the population is going to skew more towards some form of pro-choice.

Too little too late for the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Irish women who've been denied an abortion or made travel for one though.

meeeeh

Parchment wrote: »

Honestly - i dont see an referendum passing. It breaks my heart as i am 100% pro-choice. Its very hard to see yourself being classed as a second class citizen in your own country. Its very hard to see other people making decisions about your health and wellbeing - many of them men.

I am involved in a pro-choice group and attend some of the rallies but often i feel like just blocking the whole issue out of my head as it hurts my heart too much to think about it. Its so depressing to see women have to fight for this in a first world country in 2016, to see our lives governed by men and religion still.

*sigh*

I actually object to that. Women are just as much governed by women in this regard. Lucinda Creighton is not a man and she was one of the loudest opponents of last law change. In the same way as Mick Wallace is bringing the latest bill on FFA to the dail. Making it women against men issue won't dissuade those men who are against repeal of 8th amendment but it might chase away those who would vote for it. As I stated before I don't believe the same type of campaign will work as in gay marriage referendum but I do hope that this referendum will be able to mobilize younger voters just as well as previous one. I think how many younger voters turn up will decide the result. And for that you need both men and women.

Annasopra

Now is the chance to have your own personal voice on this heard

Submissions to the citizens assembly in relation to the 8th amendment close at 5pm Tomorrow (Friday Decemeber 16th)

http://www.citizensassembly.ie/en/Submissions/

I'd really encourage everyone to make a personal submission

The constitutional convention was a big influence on marriage equality.