Car park wins. Car ban on Bachelors Walk reversed. Bikes on Benburb st too.

beauf

lxflyer wrote: »

I think the cycle route is an important addition to the city, but in much the same way as the plans for College Green are doing, it makes no sense to provide these facilities at a cost of delaying a much greater number of bus passengers.

If there were appropriate high capacity and high frequency rail alternatives then we would have a different situation, but we don't. As such plans are being prepared that just don't seem to acknowledge the importance the bus network plays in keeping this city moving.

My point was as a cyclist I didn't feel the need for these lanes on the northside quays. The southside quays needs it much more. I assume most experienced cyclists would be the the same. Nice but not a need to have, on the northside.

I assume these lanes are too encourage new people to cycling, who would otherwise be out off by the current layout. So its mainly an issue of perception for new cyclists. Not that I'm against dedicated facilities, they have their place. But the design of these layouts seems to be done by people who don't cycle. This the design priorities all seems a bit skewed.

I have no problem with buses getting priority. In my experience, buses are mainly held up by other buses stopping at stops. They may get help up cyclists a little bit, but when cycling (at busy times) you generally overtake buses, even if they over take the cyclist. The cyclist will almost always end up passing them again as the bus gets stopped so often. When its not busy there's room for both to pass each other.

Just my 2 cents

LXFlyer

I wasn't aiming that at you, rather the over zealous plans that some had to shunt the buses into Benburb St leading to a right/left turn that would have been impossible to provide effective bus priority - I'm all for providing cycle lanes, but not in such a way that would inevitably lead to longer journey times for a far greater number of public transport users.

beauf

While cycling will never be for everyone. At some point people driving 60 mins, or taking a bus for 40 mins when it takes 20 mins to cycle that same journey has to be considered more seriously. Also the mix use of taking a bus, then completing the journey on a bicycle. Also when raining the road traffic gets slower and cycling stays the same time. Far more consistent.

cgcsb

aliveandkicking wrote: »

No mention of double bus lane on Bachelors Walk in the relevant section of the new DCC document (taken from irishcycle.com).




As you pointed out yourself there physically isn't the space for a double bus lane, a left turning general traffic lane, a two way Liffey cycle route and two footpaths on Bachelors Walk. The interesting bit for me that hasn't been picked up in the media as of yet is making Eden Quay public transport only. This will massively reduce the amount of private traffic on Bachelors Walk and the north quays in general.

It's a strange one alright. It's either a mistake or secretly the cycle lane has been binned altogether to accommodate the multi-story lobby. In the case of the later we should probably just ban public consultations altogether because they cost a lot of public money and are flatly ignored if they conflict with vested interest anyway.

trellheim

Its desperate that the same city council that created the Grand Canal cycle path from Grand Canal Street, a great wee bit of cycling infrastructure that is clear, simple, safe, and spacious, can't even approach replicating that elsewhere. Maybe they just accidentally stumbled into that one.

Plenty of wide space there to create that infrastructure

Different space entirely here, with a host of competing interests, no best solution possible and likely a "least worst" option which will annoy everyone, will result in being selected.

For me it is about dealing with the entire area properly

Devilman40k

aliveandkicking wrote: »

No mention of double bus lane on Bachelors Walk in the relevant section of the new DCC document (taken from irishcycle.com).




.

No mention in section 10.2.7. However, in figure 10.1 under point 7(Bachelors Walk) it states "Additional bus lane and bus stops"

Spanish Eyes

Bachelor's Walk at the moment is a total disaster. So many buses and coaches all vying for parking or bus stops all along that stretch. Mayhem.

So any improvement has to be a good thing.

I am very disappointed that private cars will be allowed to turn left into O'Connell Street. The Arnotts car park should be cpo'd and used as a bike park and taxi park or something useful like that. But it won't ever be. I think the traffic flow should be reversed on Liffey Street and Abbey Street allowing cars to access O'Connell Street that way. Just a suggestion that may not work practically either, I dunno.

Anyway I like the idea of Eden Quay being PT only, and no Right turn to O'Connell Bridge, it might help reduce SOME of the car traffic on BW.

Just looking at the map here

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3473228,-6.260188,3a,90y,55.16h,91.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szlLp75nrEk0aVYfRxKgrXQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I suppose the cars will have to filter left in front of the buslane to make the turn. That's brilliant isn't it? Unless someone has another solution at the junction!

aliveandkicking

Devilman40k wrote: »

No mention in section 10.2.7. However, in figure 10.1 under point 7(Bachelors Walk) it states "Additional bus lane and bus stops"

Thanks for that. I missed it. Seems strange / sneaky that the only mention of an additional bus lane is in the diagram of street specific measures yet they make no mention of it in the main body of text relating to that section of the plan.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3473228,-6.260188,3a,75y,250.8h,82.68t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szlLp75nrEk0aVYfRxKgrXQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

The only possible way they could get an additional bus lane in, a general traffic lane and the liffey cycle route in is to remove the footpath altogether at the Liffey wall and just have the boardwalk as the footpath. There is simply no other way to fit it all in.

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Bachelor's Walk at the moment is a total disaster. So many buses and coaches all vying for parking or bus stops all along that stretch. Mayhem.

So any improvement has to be a good thing.

I am very disappointed that private cars will be allowed to turn left into O'Connell Street. The Arnotts car park should be cpo'd and used as a bike park and taxi park or something useful like that. But it won't ever be. I think the traffic flow should be reversed on Liffey Street and Abbey Street allowing cars to access O'Connell Street that way. Just a suggestion that may not work practically either, I dunno.

Anyway I like the idea of Eden Quay being PT only, and no Right turn to O'Connell Bridge, it might help reduce SOME of the car traffic on BW.

Just looking at the map here

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3473228,-6.260188,3a,90y,55.16h,91.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szlLp75nrEk0aVYfRxKgrXQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I suppose the cars will have to filter left in front of the buslane to make the turn. That's brilliant isn't it? Unless someone has another solution at the junction!

That's what I said yesterday, you'll have cars on the right all turning left and buses on the left turning every way. Lord knows where the cyclists will be. Either way, a total mess.

cgcsb

aliveandkicking wrote: »

The only possible way they could get an additional bus lane in, a general traffic lane and the liffey cycle route in is to remove the footpath altogether at the Liffey wall and just have the boardwalk as the footpath. There is simply no other way to fit it all in.

Even then it'd be tight and an overall worsening of the pedestrian environment.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

That's what I said yesterday, you'll have cars on the right all turning left and buses on the left turning every way. Lord knows where the cyclists will be. Either way, a total mess.

As I posted already, there will have to be a bus gate.

In other words the car traffic gets held further back at a retreated stop line in the outside lane while buses get priority to go left, straight on and right.

Then cars get a separate green light.

Certainly complicated but that's the only way it could work.

As I've already posted there will have to be a second bus lane to cope with a doubling of the number of buses on that section of road. How all of this will physically fit I don't know, but without the second bus lane, the bus service will grind to a halt.

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

As I posted already, there will have to be a bus gate.

In other words the car traffic gets held further back at a retreated stop line while buses get priority to go left, straight on and right.

Then cars get a separate green light.

Certainly complicated but that's the only way it could work.

As I've already posted there will have to be a second bus lane to cope with a doubling of the number of buses on that section of road. How all of this will physically fit I don't know, but without the second bus lane, the bus service will grind to a halt.

Agreed, that's probably the only way, I've seen this work in Austria. My problem is, when do Dublin drivers ever obey stop lines/yellow boxes, orange lights etc.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Agreed, that's probably the only way, I've seen this work in Austria. My problem is, when do Dublin drivers ever obey stop lines/yellow boxes, orange lights etc.

Agreed - either way this is a recipe for chaos.

I'm still baffled as to how all of this was not an integral part of the LUAS BXD route planning process.

Either way all of this is really dependent upon what comes out of the College Green consultation as that's what's driving the need for a second bus lane.

Spanish Eyes

Coach parking on BW is causing a lot of problems too. Even though they don't actually park up there, it takes an age for passengers to alight and get their luggage, leaving little room for DB.

I see in the presentation that coach parks are being mooted. But no detail as to where they will be sited, nor any detail as to whether set down for coaches will be removed from the Quays.

cgcsb

Indeed all these documents introduce luas BXD as the driving force behind the need for change. Of course there is need for change regardless of BXD, but if it is being driven by the luas extension surely that should've been picked up in the environmental impact statement and planned for accordingly. We now have a clueless City council scrambling to force everything through bachelor's walk while obeying strict instructions from their multi-storey masters. A true disaster.

Spanish Eyes

cgcsb wrote: »

Indeed all these documents introduce luas BXD as the driving force behind the need for change. Of course there is need for change regardless of BXD, but if it is being driven by the luas extension surely that should've been picked up in the environmental impact statement and planned for accordingly. We now have a clueless City council scrambling to force everything through bachelor's walk while obeying strict instructions from their multi-storey masters. A true disaster.

This has really annoyed me.

In an earlier post I made the suggestion that traffic flow be reversed on Liffey and Abbey Streets allowing car access to O'Connell Street and THAT car park.

I know the Luas may make the turn for cars problematic, but a LUAS Gate as suggested by you and LXflier for the BW issue, is not impossible either.

trellheim

I've read the transport study

Few points I see :

1) Cycling and buses especially along the quays , and the College Green plaza - very little detail what risk measures . Do they plan a cycle lane east west on the plaza

2) Parliament St - just don't see it being able to handle the volume ... very narrow turn in to a single lane . Also huge blocking back push on Capel St due to the contra-flow bus lane on the bridge , Capel st is jammed all day as it is mostly as its a major route for service vehicles in the city

3) Making Georges quay bus only - this is just silly. I don't drive that often, I cycle/walk.bus/LUAS mostly to work but even still I use this regularly .... with this blocked off how are you supposed to drive to Heuston from Pearse St ? ( firmly against car commuting here but this is just ridiculous )

Many actual things that need to happen to make it all work are long-fingered. You may well say - so what - but if we're changing everything, now's the time to fix it all or put proper long term solutions in.

MJohnston

trellheim wrote: »

3) Making Georges quay bus only - this is just silly. I don't drive that often, I cycle/walk.bus/LUAS mostly to work but even still I use this regularly .... with this blocked off how are you supposed to drive to Heuston from Pearse St ? ( firmly against car commuting here but this is just ridiculous )

George's Quay wouldn't affect Heuston to Pearse - but giving you the benefit of the doubt that you meant Pearse to Heuston:



Yes, it's quite a detour around the city centre compared to using the quays, but that's kind of the point!

trellheim

and clogging a bunch of other major transport arteries while I do it ! Thank you - that was kind of my point in the other direction

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

and clogging a bunch of other major transport arteries while I do it ! Thank you - that was kind of my point in the other direction

The whole point is to try and facilitate car park access but discourage through traffic through the city centre.

It will mean other arteries becoming far busier but that may have to be a price to be paid given that there will only be one car lane on the Quays on either side of the river.

MJohnston

trellheim wrote: »

and clogging a bunch of other major transport arteries while I do it ! Thank you - that was kind of my point in the other direction

But here's the thing. George's Quay is an absolute tragedy of traffic right now, so much car traffic holding up the Public transport in the area (I've no doubt that private cars will be constantly blocking the Luas junctions that'll be going through there soon, as they do with pretty much every busy car-Luas junction in the city). Taking the alternate route I screenshotted above is sometimes faster that the quays because of this.

You can't increase road capacity (which is well known to do basically nothing to reduce congestion anyway), can't build tunnels, can't build more bridges, etc. So what do you do?

There's only one real option, which is to improve the quality of transit for Public transport, and improve that to a point at which it becomes a better alternative to using your car.

In nearly every city centre commute case, there isn't any way to make things better for private cars (short of the ridiculous suggestion someone had of literally knocking down lots of city centre buildings for new roads), and the focus has to be on making things better for public transport.

And in Dublin, the unfortunate truth (if you're a car commuter that is), is that PT is bus-centric, and thus, improvements to it are always going to make life worse for private cars.

cgcsb

trellheim wrote: »

I've read the transport study

Few points I see :

1) Cycling and buses especially along the quays , and the College Green plaza - very little detail what risk measures . Do they plan a cycle lane east west on the plaza

2) Parliament St - just don't see it being able to handle the volume ... very narrow turn in to a single lane . Also huge blocking back push on Capel St due to the contra-flow bus lane on the bridge , Capel st is jammed all day as it is mostly as its a major route for service vehicles in the city

3) Making Georges quay bus only - this is just silly. I don't drive that often, I cycle/walk.bus/LUAS mostly to work but even still I use this regularly .... with this blocked off how are you supposed to drive to Heuston from Pearse St ? ( firmly against car commuting here but this is just ridiculous )

Many actual things that need to happen to make it all work are long-fingered. You may well say - so what - but if we're changing everything, now's the time to fix it all or put proper long term solutions in.

1) yes that was implied by the drawings there'll be east-west cycling through CG
2) I agree, don't see it working especially if there is a bus stop on Parliament St.
3)Doesn't matter, driving through the central area is to be discouraged.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

The whole point is to try and facilitate car park access but discourage through traffic through the city centre.

It will mean other arteries becoming far busier but that may have to be a price to be paid given that there will only be one car lane on the Quays on either side of the river.

On this, I wonder should DCC have looked to compromise by facilitating car park access (ie. allowing private car traffic on certain streets) only at particular times of the day - I'm thinking outside of 7am-10am/4pm-7pm Mon-Fri, unrestricted on weekends.

trellheim

But as I said and emphasised - I am not a regular driver ! once or twice a month through the city and still I end up on Georges quay I want more PT

Georges quay is silly . I was thinking Tara St and a left turn .. but what about all the hordes who cross Memorial bridge and then along the quays

just dont see it ... and then they allow cars along Bachelors walk

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

But as I said and emphasised - I am not a regular driver ! once or twice a month through the city and still I end up on Georges quay I want more PT

Georges quay is silly . I was thinking Tara St and a left turn .. but what about all the hordes who cross Memorial bridge and then along the quays

just dont see it ... and then they allow cars along Bachelors walk

Those cars off Memorial Bridge are going to have take another route.

With only one traffic lane on Aston Quay they won't physically fit.

aliveandkicking

trellheim wrote: »

I've read the transport study

Few points I see :

1) Cycling and buses especially along the quays , and the College Green plaza - very little detail what risk measures . Do they plan a cycle lane east west on the plaza

2) Parliament St - just don't see it being able to handle the volume ... very narrow turn in to a single lane . Also huge blocking back push on Capel St due to the contra-flow bus lane on the bridge , Capel st is jammed all day as it is mostly as its a major route for service vehicles in the city

3) Making Georges quay bus only - this is just silly. I don't drive that often, I cycle/walk.bus/LUAS mostly to work but even still I use this regularly .... with this blocked off how are you supposed to drive to Heuston from Pearse St ? ( firmly against car commuting here but this is just ridiculous )

Many actual things that need to happen to make it all work are long-fingered. You may well say - so what - but if we're changing everything, now's the time to fix it all or put proper long term solutions in.

1. The plaza hasn't been designed yet but as far as I am aware they do plan an east west cycle path through it.

2. Agree with your observations on Parliament St and Capel St. Parliament St will need serious traffic light priority measures just to keep clear which will in turn take green time away from both north and south quays. Capel St will be a disaster.

3. They're not making Georges Quay bus only. They are putting in an additional bus lane but will retain a single general traffic lane.

Carawaystick

I presume the right turn off Grattan/Capel st bridge southbound will go?

aliveandkicking

Carawaystick wrote: »

I presume the right turn off Grattan/Capel st bridge southbound will go?

No it's the only way private traffic will be able to go. Straight on onto Parliament will be public transport only so private traffic will have to turn right onto Essex Quay.

trellheim

but doesn't that create a conflict and a big one with lots of buses having to turn right onto the bachelors walk vs southbound Capel St traffic ? its already a huge wait on Capel St already , frequently back to the cinemas on Parnell St .

Essentially here you are just creating a mini O-Connell Bridge - and remember Parliament st has a ton of pubs clubs and restaurants either on it or just off and there's frequently peoples just wandering across a la temple bar .

Stupid Suggestion : bus tunnel under the proposed plaza goes under at the Westin and comes up dame st

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

but doesn't that create a conflict and a big one with lots of buses having to turn right onto the bachelors walk vs southbound Capel St traffic ? its already a huge wait on Capel St already , frequently back to the cinemas on Parnell St .

Essentially here you are just creating a mini O-Connell Bridge - and remember Parliament st has a ton of pubs clubs and restaurants either on it or just off and there's frequently peoples just wandering across a la temple bar .

Stupid Suggestion : bus tunnel under the proposed plaza goes under at the Westin and comes up dame st

This is the whole stupidity of not allowing buses access the south side of College Green.