Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

kevthegaff

A famous TD who was asking questions of the gardai, was then breathalysed outside dail bar but Luckily under limit. Everyone involved in this case will be intimadated until no further investigation.

The Moleman

kevthegaff wrote: »

A famous TD who was asking questions of the gardai, was then breathalysed outside dail bar but Luckily under limit. Everyone involved in this case will be intimadated until no further investigation.

Was he in a car with the intention of driving?

Not that I'd condone intimidation, but he shouldn't be driving if he had been drinking.

"Luckily" makes it sound like you are glad he got away with it as opposed to being glad he wasn't breaking the law.

emo72

Yes. She should go. Not knowing the difference between a 5 minute meeting and a 2 hour meeting. And if she really thought the meeting only lasted 5 minutes she is incompetent. The alternative is she was trying to mislead. She's finished.

The Moleman

I have been away for a few weeks and was trying to catch up on these shenanigans with the the Gardaí and Templemore accounts.

What I can't find is how and when the "financial irregularties" were first made public.

Is this something that has been known about for a while and was the reason for the PAC last week or was it discovered during those committee meetings?

Did the civilian department heads within the Gardaí also keep quiet about the accounts or are they the ones who who brought this into the light?

The Moleman

emo72 wrote: »

Yes. She should go. Not knowing the difference between a 5 minute meeting and a 2 hour meeting. And if she really thought the meeting only lasted 5 minutes she is incompetent. The alternative is she was trying to mislead. She's finished.

Everyone I know seems to have this trouble too.

"I have been ages" or "been on the phone for an hour" when that is nothing close to the truth :P

emo72

The Moleman wrote: »

Everyone I know seems to have this trouble too.

"I have been ages" or "been on the phone for an hour" when that is nothing close to the truth :P

Yeah... But... They're your friends. Nothings at stake there. Unless your friend is a commissioner?

I know your joking!

The Moleman

emo72 wrote: »

Yeah... But... They're your friends. Nothings at stake there. Unless your friend is a commissioner?

I know your joking!

I did mean it in jest, but it is true.

And not just friends - most Irish people do it. Can't tell the truth about time at all.

What about the other question? I can't for the life of me figure out why the civilian management aren't getting racked over the coals too? Why didn't they come forward sooner?

IrishSea

Will Noreen be allowed stay in her position after this latest breaking scandal?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/revealed-gardai-tapped-the-phones-of-innocent-people-35709010.html

pilly

IrishSea wrote:

Will Noreen be allowed stay in her position after this latest breaking scandal?

I actually don't think this is a scandal. Gardai tap phones, sometimes the people are innocent but they need to cast a wide net.

IrishSea

pilly wrote: »

I actually don't think this is a scandal. Gardai tap phones, sometimes the people are innocent but they need to cast a wide net.

A police force spying on citizens by tapping their phones isn't a scandal?
I'd reckon you're the only person in the whole country who thinks that.
So, you'd have no problem with a Garda listening in and recording your conversations with your wife, your bank manager, your doctor etc etc?

In a week where it's reported that a mentally unwell woman committed suicide after a copper posted video of her, during one of her breakdowns, walking naked down O'Connell Street.

There's also the not small matter of the financial irregularities in Templemore, where it seems that a slush fund was being run for the 'elites' in AGS.

Our police force is corrupt, it needs to be torn asunder and reformed, much like the corrupt RUC was in The North.

pilly

IrishSea wrote:

A police force spying on citizens by tapping their phones isn't a scandal? I'd reckon you're the only person in the whole country who thinks that. So, you'd have no problem with a Garda listening in and recording your conversations with your wife, your bank manager, your doctor etc etc?

I agree all the other issues are disgraceful I just don't think this one is.

I can see why they might need to do it is all I'm saying. To catch serious criminals.

And no I would have no problem with it, I'm sure they'd be bored to death listening to my conversations.

IrishSea

pilly wrote: »

I agree all the other issues are disgraceful I just don't think this one is.

I can see why they might need to do it is all I'm saying. To catch serious criminals.

And no I would have no problem with it, I'm sure they'd be bored to death listening to my conversations.

Only, a lot of this spying was on innocent people with no link to criminality.

Fair enough that you have no problem on coppers listening in to your private business, most people would have serious issues with that, especially when the coppers start gossip and rumours about you in your local area.

If you're unfortunate enough to have taken issue with a copper, they might even contact their friends in Tulsa and open a file with child sex abuse allegations against you in it!

Water John

just look at the issue of phone tapping in the USA. FBI needs to go to a special court and make the case for eaves dropping. Also, the nondisclosure of USA citizens when foreign agents are being listened.
Phone tapping is a big deal. It's an infringement of anyone's, right to privacy. I'ts a no no, without specific authorisation.

NOS resigning at this stage, is not a solution.
The AGS, needs a complete overhaul, a la PSNI.
The correct people with the skills, are readily available.
I would hope the change of Taoiseach, would give the opportunity to reset.
But I'm doubtful, that it will be done.

With FF casting doubt on allowing Frances be renominated as MOJ, do FG want to go to the country on the AGS record? Maybe that's the choice that will cause the change.

jonsnow

The Moleman wrote: »

Everyone I know seems to have this trouble too.

"I have been ages" or "been on the phone for an hour" when that is nothing close to the truth :P

When a seasoned detective and the head of the national security agency states when reporting to the official government authority that monitors it that at a meeting that lasted nearly two and a half hours when allegations of financial irregularities and possible embezzlement amounting to 12 million euros is first brought to her attention that it was a brief 5 minute chat this is not the same as your mate casually saying to his mam that he was ages on the phone with his girlfriend or whatever.

jonsnow

The way to fix the Gardai is actually blindingly simple and is for the first time being considered in the most recent review. It is not easy but it is simple. Hive off the national security function from the gardai.

Create a domestic intelligence agency - staffed by military, gardai, Revenue, CAB,customs, language experts etc. Appoint a senior military officer with a background in MI or a Crime and Sec garda to run it. It should have the authority to call on other agaencies resources when necessary ie. garda helicopter, access to all garda or revenue files. Have it report to a specific cabinet minister or better yet a cross-party secret committee ala USA etc.

Then as you no longer need an Irish national running the regular gardai simply hire a highly respected UK candadian or australian to come in with their own team and genuinely reform the gardai like Patten. Obviously there will be ferocious resistance from vested interests but this is the solution.

Water John

At this stage, The only way to deal with resistance seems to be to steamroll over it. Radical quick change.

Boggy Turf

It's actually hard to understand what O'Sullivan would see as a resigning offense. She has been a disaster. It's embarrassing at this stage.

Mr.Micro

jonsnow wrote: »

The way to fix the Gardai is actually blindingly simple and is for the first time being considered in the most recent review. It is not easy but it is simple. Hive off the national security function from the gardai.

Create a domestic intelligence agency - staffed by military, gardai, Revenue, CAB,customs, language experts etc. Appoint a senior military officer with a background in MI or a Crime and Sec garda to run it. It should have the authority to call on other agaencies resources when necessary ie. garda helicopter, access to all garda or revenue files. Have it report to a specific cabinet minister or better yet a cross-party secret committee ala USA etc.

Then as you no longer need an Irish national running the regular gardai simply hire a highly respected UK candadian or australian to come in with their own team and genuinely reform the gardai like Patten. Obviously there will be ferocious resistance from vested interests but this is the solution.

Imagine the weak politicians we have pushing such an idea through. No way. FF cannot even put forward a Dail vote on Ms. O Sullivan. Is it fear?

Water John

FF don't want to lie in with the AAA or SF in such a vote. IT is a Cabinet decision not a Dail one.
Not facing up to it, has sunk Frances without trace. Doubt if she'll be in the next cabinet. Long way from being seen as a smart choice for Taoiseach a short time ago.
Another casualty. When will some one shout stop?

blanch152

IrishSea wrote: »

In a week where it's reported that a mentally unwell woman committed suicide after a copper posted video of her, during one of her breakdowns, walking naked down O'Connell Street.

.

Is it illegal to video people in public and post it online?

I have seen many videos posted online of Gardai on duty. How is this one different? Should all videos of Garda activity be banned from the internet?

Water John

To lose one phone seems unfortunate. To lose two seems incredible.

Captain Obvious

blanch152 wrote: »

Is it illegal to video people in public and post it online?

I have seen many videos posted online of Gardai on duty. How is this one different? Should all videos of Garda activity be banned from the internet?

It's different because Gardaí are in a position of power and trust. Much like if a teacher recorded her student stuttering and stammering through reading in front of the class and posted it online for a laugh.

pilly

Water John wrote: »

To lose one phone seems unfortunate. To lose two seems incredible.

Don't know about that, my daughter can lose 2 in a week!

Water John

See from Mick Clifford, Irish Examiner, that a prison officer whistleblower is being hounded as well. Hope Leo shouts stop to all this. His backing of Maurice McCabe was crucial,

Boggy Turf

Water John wrote: »

See from Mick Clifford, Irish Examiner, that a prison officer whistleblower is being hounded as well. Hope Leo shouts stop to all this. His backing of Maurice McCabe was crucial,

Mick Clifford is a brilliant jouranlist. We need more like him.

kerry cow

Watch crime call , someone lost a phone or two .
If you see one lying round in a country ditch it might be lost from dublin..
!!!

Water John

Culture within the Gardai being torn apart at the Dail Committee.

Water John

Riveting, Culhane asked to justify his allegations about Kelly and Kelly sitting next to him and looking at him.
Destroyed.

Dinarius

Implicit in some of the criticism of Noreen O'Sullivan there appears to be the following belief, that....

1. The Gardaí were perfect before she came along.
2. Her sacking or resignation would solve the problem.

Both, of course, are laughable.

It is not unreasonable to assume that flaws in the Gardaí are so historic, so endemic and so deeply entrenched, that she may be powerless to do anything about them; and that anyone who might replace her would be equally helpless.

The solution lies first and foremost with our elected representatives.

Innocent or guilty, O'Sullivan is just a distraction; a classic Irish political football.

What we need is a bureau of internal affairs with real teeth. Fat chance.

D.

kerry cow

I have no respect for our law enforcement any more .looks like they are rotten to the core .
When a ship is sinking , the captain takes the responsibility.
It's just shows what we are dealing with , when you see people tuffen on and ride the storm .It more like up yours to the public .
Time for her and her side kicks to go

Mr.Micro

It's only six months since 1916 party finished. Imagine what all those 1916 people would think of the State we have? A truly rotten Police force, incompetent state bodies unaccountable and corrupt. Is anybody in the state sector doing their jobs. Weak politicians.. Nobody is in charge.

Laois_Man

Anyone watching Noreen O'Sullivan's testimony being given to PAC. They're ripping her apart. She's a total liar and Varadkar and Flanagan simply have to sack her if there's going to be any confidence restored in AGS!

pilly

Laois_Man wrote: »

Anyone watching Noreen O'Sullivan's testimony being given to PAC. They're ripping her apart. She's a total liar and Varadkar and Flanagan simply have to sack her if there's going to be any confidence restored in AGS!

No, can't watch, in work. Keep us updated.

emo72

She reported something to gsoc last night, and conveniently can't give the name of the person who has access to certain accounts in Cabra. Last night. It will be tied up in gsoc for years. Well done Noirinn.

Laois_Man

I haven't seen all of it, but the highlights of what I have seen

She has tried to cover her ass by only yesterday directing GSOC to investigate fraud of EU funds at Templemore between 1999 and 2010 having conveniently revived an audit report just yesterday. The fact that it's now in the hands of GSOC means PAC are limited in what answers they can get from her

She has refused to name or give the rank of the signatories to one particular bank account in question, only saying that the latest signatorie has now retired. But there are over 40 other bank accounts under scrutiny

She has stood by her account that she first learned of issues around Templemore's finances on July 27th 2015 despite other officials having testified that she knew a month earlier.

There was a report in 2008 (cant remember the name of it) that highlighted issues as far back as then and O'Sullivan claims to have never been aware of this report (even though she was Assistant Commissioner at that time).

pilly

How can she refuse to give someone's name?

Laois_Man

Ahh yes, they are talking about that 2008 report again. It was Barry McGee report of 2008 which concerned financial irregularities at the Garda training college in Templemore and directed that a full audit be carried out. No audit was done and O'Sullivan received an audit report only yesterday.

She won't give names now because it would be prejudicial to the GSOC investigation

Laois_Man

All she's doing with the tough questions all the time is performing a filibuster.

She's disgracefully dishonest!

jimmycrackcorm

pilly wrote:

How can she refuse to give someone's name?

If she did then people would be condemning her as preventing a possible court case.

For Reals

"It was like that when I got here", worn thin at this stage. You would think she fell out of the sky and landed in her current role.

Laois_Man

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If she did then people would be condemning her as preventing a possible court case.

Naming a signatory does no such thing!

And if she wasn't appearing in front of the PAC today, there's no question that there'd have been no GSOC investigation conveniently called yesterday!

Are Am Eye

Someone should tell noreen there is no such word as 'advices'. In any quantity it's advice.

The sheer prevarication, pompous waffling and disingenuity of her 'answering' is astonishing. Something very wrong with our country when she can retain office in the face of such non cooperation.

Mr.Micro

How long more can this go on? It is a total disgrace that a democratic country and an EU member is policed by a corrupt police organisation. What does it say for justice? When is the Government going to act. O'sullivan has some neck. One thing after another and she just swats it all away. We do corruption very well in Ireland, the banks, the police, the church, the religious orders, planning etc. We should make an industry out if it.

markodaly

Before we go off an another, Ireland is a terrible place, the Corruptions Perceptions Index places us at 19th in the world.

Not best in the world by any measure but certainly better then 90% of other countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
We are even cleaner then the Japanese and French.

The Gardai have no one to blame but themselves however. They were seen as untouchable for decades as governments relied on them to hold the state together given the situation in the North.

Now this inaction is coming home to roost. I think what FG want to do is get as much dirty laundry out in the open and pin it all on Noreen and then when the time in right in the short term to sack her and start afresh.

Sacking her now will achieve nothing really, so we are stuck with her unfortunately. We need some of these investigations to conclude before we know what type of reform is needed. The rank and file also have to take some of the blame here as they have resisted day to day reform as well, think Garda Reservers and more civilians doing paper work.

A Patton style reform of the entire Garda system of policing is needed. They should be given executive powers to implement it. If middle management Gardai or senior Gardai resist, tough, they can quit and go off and work some where else. There is too much inertia within this organisation.

Speaking from experience, I am a middle class man with two sons and a daughter. Given my own albeit limited experience, I would never fully trust a Guard. Stories my children have told me, from their own experience from living abroad they tell me that in other countries like the UK, the police there are much more trust worthy and approachable.

Boggy Turf

The complete lack of accountability in our Political system and Public Service have made "leaders" like the corrupt commissioner utterly brazen and unafraid of public opinion. The only thing they care about is power, money and pension.

Disgusting organisation and individual. No shame.

Water John

Great write up by Miriam Lord today.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/miriam-lord-irony-free-n%C3%B3ir%C3%ADn-engulfs-pac-in-verbal-dust-screen-1.3127202

Here's part of it;

It’s hard work listening to O’Sullivan as she tells everyone about her grand plan to re-energise the force, something which involves concentrating on future management through the use of construction metaphors while being very hazy about the past.
After the third hour, you’ve lost the will to live
O’Sullivan doesn’t answer questions; she throws up a verbal dust screen. After the first hour passes, you begin to wonder if she is capable of a giving a simple, straight reply. After the second hour, you don’t really care. And after the third hour, you’ve lost the will to live.

Laois_Man

Leo Varadkar said in today's leaders questions that both he and the Government had confidence in the Commissioner and the problems faced by the force predated her tenure as Garda Commissioner.

Nothing ever changes!

Water John

He also criticised the pace of change. I wouldn't be that comfortable if I was Noirin.

satguy

She should be sacked, the cheek of her refusing to give the name or names of guys/gals milking the system. A prison cell is what she needs.

Water John

Well, just referring it to GSOC the night before was certainly giving two fingers to the Committee.
The same was done a few weeks ago. Documents landed the night before and the morning of the meeting.
It's either deliberate or incompetence. She can choose which one, herself.