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Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    bubblypop wrote: »
    I'd imagine that's going on at the moment.
    You can't expect to he media to be told before the men involved?

    The conclusions, no. That an investigation is ongoing, yes. At the moment we have no idea what, or if any, action has been taken.


  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ Aubree Salty Narcotic


    Lurkio wrote: »
    Both are actually conspiracies, just one of a lesser order.

    Yes but only one of which the Garda Commissioner (the topic of this thread) is involved in.

    Unless you expect her to resign because two other Gardaí whom she ought to be able to trust misled her?


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    hardCopy wrote: »
    They should have made an external appointment to begin with.

    This.

    We can't fix AGS without somebody who hasn't come out of Templemore at the helm.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,395 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Good article in The Irish Examiner by Tom Clonan.
    Gives the example of how females were being treated in the army and the disclosure of same. How Michael Smith stepped up as the line politician and dealt with it.

    www.irishexaminer.com/.../ugly-lies-about-the-man-telling-the-truth-400532. html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    Yes but only one of which the Garda Commissioner (the topic of this thread) is involved in.

    Unless you expect her to resign because two other Gardaí whom she ought to be able to trust misled her?

    I would expect her to resign if there was no consequences for these Gardaí prior to the matter becoming public knowledge.
    ED E wrote:
    We can't fix AGS without somebody who hasn't come out of Templemore at the helm.

    I think it could be done with a genuinely independent supervisory board, with a mechanism to stop it being loaded with "yes" men thrown in by the government. I think we will not see that any time soon, however, given the wish of FF, FG and to a lesser extent Labour to avoid changing the status quo in any real way.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,395 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    If we want to reform the AGS, we simply can look north of the border.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Lurkio wrote: »
    I would expect her to resign if there was no consequences for these Gardaí prior to the matter becoming public knowledge.



    I think it could be done with a genuinely independent supervisory board, with a mechanism to stop it being loaded with "yes" men thrown in by the government. I think we will not see that any time soon, however, given the wish of FF, FG and to a lesser extent Labour to avoid changing the status quo in any real way.

    Some change has already been made but faster improvements have to be made.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    finbar10 wrote: »
    For me, the crux of the issue is that the whistleblower, Maurice McCabe, would have been in all kinds of difficulty if he hadn't taped his conversations.

    This. In my view, any time it is ever discovered that somebody would have suffered as a result of dishonesty had they not managed to document proof of that dishonesty, those caught in the act of being dishonest should see their heads roll or at the very least suffer very serious consequences.

    So in my view, the two officers who were caught red handed conspiring to damage McCabe in this manner should be in deep sh!t. The only remaining question is how high up the chain of the command this plan went. Whatever that turns out to be, everybody implicated along the way should similarly face serious consequences.

    The only way we're going to change the culture of whistleblower suppression (not just in the Gardai but in all walks of life, and not just in Ireland but across the democratic world) is if anybody who is caught either engaging in or ordering / authorising such suppression is harshly dealt with, to the point at which it stops being worth the risk to get involved in this kind of sh!te.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,395 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It is probable that there was no arranged conspiracy. I speculate, the officers took it upon themselves to do what they thought their leader might want.

    Which of Shakespeare's characters says ' would any one rid me etc'?

    It's the same in other areas, no actual conspiracy but, I know when to scratch some ones back as my turn will come some day and I'll be looked after.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    One of the Gardaí at the meeting was a superintendent, according to the radio this morning.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭Baggy Trousers


    I hear there is a superb article by Conor Brady in the Sunday Times if anyone has access.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Statement from Noirín O'Sullivan today.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/nóir%C3%ADn-o-sullivan-denies-trying-to-impugn-mccabe-s-integrity-1.2660147?m

    Can't copy and paste the statement as it's presented in the Irish Times' own PDF plugin. But essentially, she confirms (in a roundabout way) that McCabe's credibility was challenged, and has referred the issue of the 2008 recordings to GSOC. This part I can paste, from the text of the accompanying article:
    “Whatever its source, the net charge that is now being made is that the credibility and motivation of Sergeant McCabe was challenged,” her statement says.
    “Having regard to the nature and seriousness of the allegations, and the duty to assist the Commission in its task of establishing the facts and truth, I cannot see how it would be in any way unreasonable, improper or avoidable to appropriately test and cross examine the evidence of all persons giving evidence to the Commission including Sergeant McCabe.”

    That's very true, but it doesn't address whether his credibility and motivations were attacked, or whether her lawyers were instructed to do that. There's a difference between cross examining evidence, and attacking the person giving the evidence. That has not been clarified in any way by this statement - if anything, the above reads as a tacit suggestion that his credibility was indeed attacked.

    My prediction, if recent history is anything to go by, is that AGS will obstruct GSOC in any way they can, and GSOC will subsequently be scapegoated and hung out to dry if they either are unable to make a conclusion due to lack of co-operation, or upset the apple cart by confirming that McCabe has indeed been subject to further bullsh!t by AGS.

    What it does make clear is that O'Sullivan is attempting to pass the buck, shift the focus, and draw a line under unresolved matters. To that end, she fits in perfectly with the Irish establishment, so there's nothing remotely surprising about any of this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    Statement from Noirín O'Sullivan today.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/nóir%C3%ADn-o-sullivan-denies-trying-to-impugn-mccabe-s-integrity-1.2660147?m

    Can't copy and paste the statement as it's presented in the Irish Times' own PDF plugin. But essentially, she confirms (in a roundabout way) that McCabe's credibility was challenged, and has referred the issue of the 2008 recordings to GSOC. This part I can paste, from the text of the accompanying article:



    That's very true, but it doesn't address whether his credibility and motivations were attacked, or whether her lawyers were instructed to do that. There's a difference between cross examining evidence, and attacking the person giving the evidence. That has not been clarified in any way by this statement - if anything, the above reads as a tacit suggestion that his credibility was indeed attacked.

    My prediction, if recent history is anything to go by, is that AGS will obstruct GSOC in any way they can, and GSOC will subsequently be scapegoated and hung out to dry if they either are unable to make a conclusion due to lack of co-operation, or upset the apple cart by confirming that McCabe has indeed been subject to further bullsh!t by AGS.

    What it does make clear is that O'Sullivan is attempting to pass the buck, shift the focus, and draw a line under unresolved matters. To that end, she fits in perfectly with the Irish establishment, so there's nothing remotely surprising about any of this.

    Got her arse kicked by Policing Authorty. Time for change.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,395 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Uncle Ben, I can understand your reaction. Problem is the deep seated culture in the org. As we have seen cutting off the head of the Hydra has little effect.
    It would have been really some thing to have seen the previous incumbent getting that bollicking.

    The Policing Authority may have the advantage of stepping it away from dept of Justice.
    The mix in the Dail ensures things will be outed.

    N O'S has a short run now to go with the winds of change. That includes the two on the tape being seen to. Her timetable is set. She rolls with it or gets off.
    That break of trust involved with how McCabe was treated did more damage to the previous Govn't than all the IW protests.
    It really stuck in peoples craw.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    The new police authority showing their teeth on this, the Commissioner faced a 4 hour grilling on this last night and she will face 2 public sessions in the next couple of weeks.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,395 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    As you say, the next round is in public. She had better up her game. She had better get with the play whether she believes in it or not, if she wants to stay in the job.
    Now with the range of voices in the Dail, there is no 'move on, nothing to see here'.
    There one or two cheerleaders in the media cannot gloss it over.
    Fair play to Michael Clifford. He has stayed with it.

    We need a modern, open police force that has the trust of the public.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    John McGuinness TD is now stating he cannot place confidence in the Garda Commissioner. She really is the gift that just keeps giving.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    Uncle Ben wrote: »
    John McGuinness TD is now stating he cannot place confidence in the Garda Commissioner. She really is the gift that just keeps giving.

    I don't think anyone will be listening to McGuinness, at least not until he explains why he took a secret meeting with the former commissioner and kept it secret for over two years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    On a serious level this isn't a problem 1 Commissioner can change or a few new rules and procedures either. The change in mindset needs to come from the top which is why Callinane's attitude and the conduct of senior officers is such a serious matter.

    Loads of reforms aren't going to make any difference if the top brass ignore them and encourage the lower ranks to forget the spirit of them.

    As for McGuinness, he really should have taped the conversation like McCabe did with others! Do I believe him? Tbh it would have been great for the publicity so maybe there was a higher principle there and he was waiting for all inquiries to finish.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,910 ✭✭✭enricoh


    Uncle Ben wrote: »
    John McGuinness TD is now stating he cannot place confidence in the Garda Commissioner. She really is the gift that just keeps giving.

    Fair play to him, one of our top politicians imo. Saw ff's justice spokesman niall collins on tv last week and he was abysmal. Nothing to see here, public not interested in it. Asked about mc cabe n all he wanted to talk about was increasing garda salaries n numbers. Must be an election coming n votes need to be bought!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    K-9 wrote: »
    As for McGuinness, he really should have taped the conversation like McCabe did with others! Do I believe him? Tbh it would have been great for the publicity so maybe there was a higher principle there and he was waiting for all inquiries to finish.
    If he felt the need to tape the secret meeting he had in a car park, then perhaps he shouldn't be agreeing to the meeting in the first place.

    Wasn't he chairman of the Public Accounts Committee? I don't know how having meetings in secret is compatible with that role.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    That's what I couldn't understand, the Public Accounts Committee is a Government expenditure watchdog? So really, is there a conflict? As long as it doesn't affect the committee he's free to do other stuff like meet the Commissioner on non spending stuff.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,715 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Phoebas wrote: »
    If he felt the need to tape the secret meeting he had in a car park, then perhaps he shouldn't be agreeing to the meeting in the first place.

    Wasn't he chairman of the Public Accounts Committee? I don't know how having meetings in secret is compatible with that role.
    But why would the Comish look for a meeting with McGuinness then?
    Was the meeting with McGuinness arranged because he was an opposition TD or because he was in charge of the PAC?


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,395 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    McGuinness stretched the remit of the PAC to get to the McCabe issue. He did this by using the revenue loss on the quashed penalty points.

    A lot of media again chasing the wrong rabbit. Focus on the Gardai not McGuinness. He could have done things differently, but that's a minor call in the greater scheme of things.

    Really need to follow the PSNI route of culture change. JF of the Police Authority may have just done that. Push on now and back her.

    BTW Niall Collins was no longer Justice Spokesman by the end of that day, now Jim O'Callaghan, brother of YKW.

    Bannon, meeting was to stop McGuinness having McCabe in before the PAC which he chaired.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,371 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    K-9 wrote: »
    That's what I couldn't understand, the Public Accounts Committee is a Government expenditure watchdog? So really, is there a conflict? As long as it doesn't affect the committee he's free to do other stuff like meet the Commissioner on non spending stuff.
    This wasn't 'other stuff'. On the radio yesterday, McGuinness said that this meeting was related to the PAC as Callinan was due to attend (as was McCabe).
    It was around this time that Callinan made his 'whistleblowers are disgusting' comments to the PAC.

    So we have the Chairman of the PAC holding a secret meeting with someone who was coming before it, and him keeping the contents of that meeting secret for over two years - only to reveal it now, for unknown motives.


  • Registered Users Posts: 241 ✭✭1st dalkey dalkey


    The bottom line is that the Garda are far too close to politics in this country, and indeed vice versa, politics is too close to policing.
    Every promotion above the rank of Inspector has to be signed off on by the Minister. The result is that we have a force whose whole top management are politically orientated, very sensitive to the political needs of the current government, irrespective of the policing needs of the day.
    Closing Garda stations was apparently not an issue from a policing perspective until it became a political issue. There was no push to do it until Finance needed to save a few bob. Then the top management, who until that point had no interest in it, were suddenly all gung ho. We went from a point where there was no station closures to one where we had dozens in a few months. It certainly wasn't driven by proper policing management.
    The current main parties are happy with the status quo as it retains for them the influence in policing that they have become accustomed to. The independents and SF have never had that power, and are unlikely to, so they are not a bit shy about challenging it. In doing so, they are doing us all a great service.
    So, no, firing another commissioner will not change anything, anymore then firing the last one did. We need a buffer between politics and policing, one which the government of the day does not control.


  • Registered Users Posts: 658 ✭✭✭johnp001


    Brendan Howlin spoke in the Daíl yesterday on this subject.
    Dáil hears claims Garda Commissioner contacted journalist making allegations of 'sexual crimes' against whistleblower Maurice McCabe
    Former Minister says Commissioner O’Sullivan must stand aside pending inquiry

    Labour leader Brendan Howlin has told the Dáil that a journalist today told him of serious allegations of misconduct against Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan.

    Amid repeated warnings from the Dáil chairman, Séan Ó Fearghaíl, the former Public Expenditure Minister insisted it was important for the Dáil to hear what the journalist had told him.

    Mr Howlin said the journalist, who today contacted him, said he had direct knowledge of Commissioner O’Sullivan contacting a number of journalists in 2013 and 2014 and alleging the whistleblower, Sgt Maurice McCabe, was involved in “sexual crimes.”

    The Labour leader said the Garda Commissioner should stand aside pending the outcome of a Commission of Investigation to be headed by Supreme Court Judge, Peter Charleton. Mr Howlin said in any other walk of life a person in such a situation would have to go on “administrative leave.”
    More...


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,877 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    johnp001 wrote: »
    Brendan Howlin spoke in the Daíl yesterday on this subject.


    "Mr Howlin said the journalist, who today contacted him, said he had direct knowledge of Commissioner O’Sullivan contacting a number of journalists in 2013 and 2014 and alleging the whistleblower, Sgt Maurice McCabe, was involved in “sexual crimes.”"


    Mr. Howlin said the journalist said.......but no direct evidence.

    Think it best to wait and see before commenting.


  • Registered Users Posts: 658 ✭✭✭johnp001


    Michael Clifford with new revelations on McCabe smearing...
    EXCLUSIVE: False sex allegation against McCabe circulated by Tusla following “clerical error”
    A file containing a false allegation of child sex abuse against whistleblower Maurice McCabe was sent by Tusla, the child and family agency, to gardai and widely circulated in 2013, however no effort was made to substantiate the claim.

    The abuse claims were made by a young woman in August to a counsellor, who contacted Tusla and gardai. However, no attempt was made to contact Mr McCabe and put the allegations to him.

    In 2014, Tusla admitted a mistake had been made and attributed the false accusation to a “clerical error”.

    It was only last year that Mr McCabe became aware that the highly damaging false abuse allegation had been widely circulated. He is to take a legal case against Tusla and has met with Minister for Children Katherine Zappone. She has indicated a public apology will be forthcoming.

    However, major questions remain as to how the allegation came about, how it was processed by both the gardai and Tusla, and why Sergeant McCabe was never informed about it.

    The allegation surfaced on a file in August 2013, and the “error” was detected the following May, a period during which Sergeant McCabe’s claims of malpractice were causing major political and garda related controversy.

    The allegation was known among senior officers in the force. Despite this knowledge Sergeant McCabe was not informed about it, either after the initial file was created, or once it was discovered to be an error. He was not arrested or questioned about the initial allegation, and neither was he informed by the commissioner, his employer, about the error after May 2014.
    More...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,990 ✭✭✭nhunter100


    johnp001 wrote:
    Michael Clifford with new revelations on McCabe smearing...


    Someone in Tulsa needs to find alternative employment. The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Copy and paste is now a clerical error ffs.


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