Should another Garda Commissioner resign?

Phoebas

K-9 wrote: »

As for McGuinness, he really should have taped the conversation like McCabe did with others! Do I believe him? Tbh it would have been great for the publicity so maybe there was a higher principle there and he was waiting for all inquiries to finish.

If he felt the need to tape the secret meeting he had in a car park, then perhaps he shouldn't be agreeing to the meeting in the first place.

Wasn't he chairman of the Public Accounts Committee? I don't know how having meetings in secret is compatible with that role.

K-9

That's what I couldn't understand, the Public Accounts Committee is a Government expenditure watchdog? So really, is there a conflict? As long as it doesn't affect the committee he's free to do other stuff like meet the Commissioner on non spending stuff.

Seth Brundle

Phoebas wrote: »

If he felt the need to tape the secret meeting he had in a car park, then perhaps he shouldn't be agreeing to the meeting in the first place.

Wasn't he chairman of the Public Accounts Committee? I don't know how having meetings in secret is compatible with that role.

But why would the Comish look for a meeting with McGuinness then?
Was the meeting with McGuinness arranged because he was an opposition TD or because he was in charge of the PAC?

Water John

McGuinness stretched the remit of the PAC to get to the McCabe issue. He did this by using the revenue loss on the quashed penalty points.

A lot of media again chasing the wrong rabbit. Focus on the Gardai not McGuinness. He could have done things differently, but that's a minor call in the greater scheme of things.

Really need to follow the PSNI route of culture change. JF of the Police Authority may have just done that. Push on now and back her.

BTW Niall Collins was no longer Justice Spokesman by the end of that day, now Jim O'Callaghan, brother of YKW.

Bannon, meeting was to stop McGuinness having McCabe in before the PAC which he chaired.

Phoebas

K-9 wrote: »

That's what I couldn't understand, the Public Accounts Committee is a Government expenditure watchdog? So really, is there a conflict? As long as it doesn't affect the committee he's free to do other stuff like meet the Commissioner on non spending stuff.

This wasn't 'other stuff'. On the radio yesterday, McGuinness said that this meeting was related to the PAC as Callinan was due to attend (as was McCabe).
It was around this time that Callinan made his 'whistleblowers are disgusting' comments to the PAC.

So we have the Chairman of the PAC holding a secret meeting with someone who was coming before it, and him keeping the contents of that meeting secret for over two years - only to reveal it now, for unknown motives.

1st dalkey dalkey

The bottom line is that the Garda are far too close to politics in this country, and indeed vice versa, politics is too close to policing.
Every promotion above the rank of Inspector has to be signed off on by the Minister. The result is that we have a force whose whole top management are politically orientated, very sensitive to the political needs of the current government, irrespective of the policing needs of the day.
Closing Garda stations was apparently not an issue from a policing perspective until it became a political issue. There was no push to do it until Finance needed to save a few bob. Then the top management, who until that point had no interest in it, were suddenly all gung ho. We went from a point where there was no station closures to one where we had dozens in a few months. It certainly wasn't driven by proper policing management.
The current main parties are happy with the status quo as it retains for them the influence in policing that they have become accustomed to. The independents and SF have never had that power, and are unlikely to, so they are not a bit shy about challenging it. In doing so, they are doing us all a great service.
So, no, firing another commissioner will not change anything, anymore then firing the last one did. We need a buffer between politics and policing, one which the government of the day does not control.

johnp001

Brendan Howlin spoke in the Daíl yesterday on this subject.

Independent wrote:

Dáil hears claims Garda Commissioner contacted journalist making allegations of 'sexual crimes' against whistleblower Maurice McCabe
Former Minister says Commissioner O’Sullivan must stand aside pending inquiry
Labour leader Brendan Howlin has told the Dáil that a journalist today told him of serious allegations of misconduct against Garda Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan.

Amid repeated warnings from the Dáil chairman, Séan Ó Fearghaíl, the former Public Expenditure Minister insisted it was important for the Dáil to hear what the journalist had told him.

Mr Howlin said the journalist, who today contacted him, said he had direct knowledge of Commissioner O’Sullivan contacting a number of journalists in 2013 and 2014 and alleging the whistleblower, Sgt Maurice McCabe, was involved in “sexual crimes.”

The Labour leader said the Garda Commissioner should stand aside pending the outcome of a Commission of Investigation to be headed by Supreme Court Judge, Peter Charleton. Mr Howlin said in any other walk of life a person in such a situation would have to go on “administrative leave.”
More...

blanch152

johnp001 wrote: »

Brendan Howlin spoke in the Daíl yesterday on this subject.

"Mr Howlin said the journalist, who today contacted him, said he had direct knowledge of Commissioner O’Sullivan contacting a number of journalists in 2013 and 2014 and alleging the whistleblower, Sgt Maurice McCabe, was involved in “sexual crimes.”"


Mr. Howlin said the journalist said.......but no direct evidence.

Think it best to wait and see before commenting.

johnp001

Michael Clifford with new revelations on McCabe smearing...

Irish Examiner wrote:

EXCLUSIVE: False sex allegation against McCabe circulated by Tusla following “clerical error”
A file containing a false allegation of child sex abuse against whistleblower Maurice McCabe was sent by Tusla, the child and family agency, to gardai and widely circulated in 2013, however no effort was made to substantiate the claim.

The abuse claims were made by a young woman in August to a counsellor, who contacted Tusla and gardai. However, no attempt was made to contact Mr McCabe and put the allegations to him.

In 2014, Tusla admitted a mistake had been made and attributed the false accusation to a “clerical error”.

It was only last year that Mr McCabe became aware that the highly damaging false abuse allegation had been widely circulated. He is to take a legal case against Tusla and has met with Minister for Children Katherine Zappone. She has indicated a public apology will be forthcoming.

However, major questions remain as to how the allegation came about, how it was processed by both the gardai and Tusla, and why Sergeant McCabe was never informed about it.

The allegation surfaced on a file in August 2013, and the “error” was detected the following May, a period during which Sergeant McCabe’s claims of malpractice were causing major political and garda related controversy.

The allegation was known among senior officers in the force. Despite this knowledge Sergeant McCabe was not informed about it, either after the initial file was created, or once it was discovered to be an error. He was not arrested or questioned about the initial allegation, and neither was he informed by the commissioner, his employer, about the error after May 2014.
More...

nhunter100

johnp001 wrote:

Michael Clifford with new revelations on McCabe smearing...

Someone in Tulsa needs to find alternative employment. The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Copy and paste is now a clerical error ffs.

Mrsmum

To think ex Commissioner Callinan described the whistleblowing actions of Maurice McCabe as 'disgusting' when the real disgusting actions were all around him, including his own actions, ie destroying Maurice McCabe's good name because he dared to hold a mirror up to Garda conduct.

Water John

Listening to SOR, it really is bizarre territory. All based on Groupthink.

Really now has to go the PSNI route. Dragged kicking and screaming, if any politician has it in them.

pilly

Never really had much interest in this subject until this latest revelation. That poor man's live has been torn asunder and if it's true that Noirin O'Sullivan spoke to journalists about it then she definitely needs to go. Disgusting behaviour.

tabby aspreme

Watched Prime Time last night, will this be another GUBU affair , similar to the Haughty era. Hopefully criminal charges will be brought against the people behind this.

mikep

Water John wrote: »

Really now has to go the PSNI route. Dragged kicking and screaming, if any politician has it in them.

From what I've heard so far from our current minister that isn't a chance of that happening..
Until we as a country face up to the fact that there is not accountability or consequences for the kind of behaviour being exposed in the Gardai, HSE, Banks, Regulators etc etc we are destined to re hash the same issues over and over and over

holyhead

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

johnp001

Wasting Tusla's time with false allegations is standard M.O. for dealing with Garda whistleblowers apparently...

RTE News wrote:

Second garda whistleblower says senior officer behind another Tusla referral
This is not the first Tusla notification in relation to a whistleblower that has come across a minister's desk in recent months, writes Katie Hannon.

I've seen correspondence that shows that Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald has in fact been in correspondence with a garda member in relation to a child protection Tusla notification, which was made about him by one of his garda superiors.

In this case, within the same week, the Health Service Executive said there was no evidence of abuse.

This whistleblower told the minister that this Tusla referral was part of a campaign of harassment against him by a senior garda.
More...

Boggy Turf

KingBrian2 wrote: »

She is doing a good job so no.

She has lost every ounce of credibility now. Her position is untenable.
It's actually shameful that she hasn't resigned.

Sleeper12

blanch152 wrote:

"Mr Howlin said the journalist, who today contacted him, said he had direct knowledge of Commissioner O’Sullivan contacting a number of journalists in 2013 and 2014 and alleging the whistleblower, Sgt Maurice McCabe, was involved in “sexual crimes.â€"

Boggy Turf wrote:

She has lost every ounce of credibility now. Her position is untenable. It's actually shameful that she hasn't resigned.

She should be sacked the same way as the last commissioner. Or send someone to have a little chat late on a Sunday night and she can "resign" on the Monday.
I've huge respect for Gardai and the work they do she and others like her are doing untold damage to the image of the Gardai not to mention what poor McCabe has and is still being put through.
Throw enough mud and it eventually sticks. They picked the worst thing to slaughter him with. Child sex abuse is something people never forget and there will always be some doubt in some people's eyes. I don't want to sound dramatic or over dramatic but this genuinely brings tears to my eyes thinking what they have put this hero of a cop through. Someone should end up in jail over this

ddarcy

Boggy Turf wrote: »

She has lost every ounce of credibility now. Her position is untenable.
It's actually shameful that she hasn't resigned.

I believe we will see another MOJ and Garda Commissioner gone. In fairness to the commissioner, there is not much she can do if Fitzgerald doesn't want things to be changed and reformed from within AGS. Fitzgerald was put into the position in order to do this and has clearly failed. To go with here other failings in the role, she will have to go.

But if the Tanaiste is removed, someone else will also have to fall. It may actually be the government this time. I remember an article where Gilmore stated he nearly pulled the plug on the last government over Callinan. So, we may actually see it this time.

Noirin hasn't exactly made herself look good as well and if there is to be change in AGS she will have to go too.

Donal55

ddarcy wrote: »

I believe we will see another MOJ and Garda Commissioner gone. In fairness to the commissioner, there is not much she can do if Fitzgerald doesn't want things to be changed and reformed from within AGS. Fitzgerald was put into the position in order to do this and has clearly failed. To go with here other failings in the role, she will have to go.

But if the Tanaiste is removed, someone else will also have to fall. It may actually be the government this time. I remember an article where Gilmore stated he nearly pulled the plug on the last government over Callinan. So, we may actually see it this time.

Noirin hasn't exactly made herself look good as well and if there is to be change in AGS she will have to go too.

Wouldn't believe the Lords Prayer from Gilmore's mouth.
'We will not cut child benefit'.
Hic.

Seth Brundle

Sleeper12 wrote: »

She should be sacked the same way as the last commissioner. Or send someone to have a little chat late on a Sunday night and she can "resign" on the Monday.

The process applied with the last Commisioner, regardless of your personal views on him, was improper.
His removal was a political move. I don't want politics interfering with the police and vice versa. The whole garda whistleblower saga should have shown you that. There's no difference to Callinans removal that there was with Brian Lenihan boasting how they threatened to have a garda doing his job moved to the back of beyond because Lenihan and his cronies wanted to stay out drinking.

flutered

ddarcy wrote: »

I believe we will see another MOJ and Garda Commissioner gone. In fairness to the commissioner, there is not much she can do if Fitzgerald doesn't want things to be changed and reformed from within AGS. Fitzgerald was put into the position in order to do this and has clearly failed. To go with here other failings in the role, she will have to go.

But if the Tanaiste is removed, someone else will also have to fall. It may actually be the government this time. I remember an article where Gilmore stated he nearly pulled the plug on the last government over Callinan. So, we may actually see it this time.

Noirin hasn't exactly made herself look good as well and if there is to be change in AGS she will have to go too.

fitzerald was put in to keep the clock ticking away, fast or slow did not come into it, keep it steady dont rock it

Sleeper12

kbannon wrote:

The process applied with the last Commisioner, regardless of your personal views on him, was improper. His removal was a political move. I don't want politics interfering with the police and vice versa. The whole garda whistleblower saga should have shown you that. There's no difference to Callinans removal that there was with Brian Lenihan boasting how they threatened to have a garda doing his job moved to the back of beyond because Lenihan and his cronies wanted to stay out drinking.

Sorry. I was being sarcastic. I don't believe for a second that he resigned. He was sacked plain and simple. Sacked by Kenny without discussion with the cabinet.
Also sacked for the wrong reasons. If I remember correctly he was sacked for "hiding" information from the government (on phone tapping) but it later turned out he'd actually informed them. Someone mentioned that the current situation might be a GUBU affair but they seem to forget that callinans removal only a few years back was actually on a GUBU scale. It's funny how it seems less serious in our minds after such a short period of time.

Richyroberts

Sad day as a member!!i couldn't give two hoots about all those at the top table in the job!it reflects terribly on those day in day out at the coal face!look they are all entitled to due process but at what point will they just say enough is enough it's completely not fit for purpose.scandal after scandal.and then the brass have the neck to crucify young members for trivial misdemeanours and hold them accountable to unobtainable standards!no sympathy for any of them up top,they sh1t on us mules for long enough!

BENDYBINN

nhunter100 wrote: »

Someone in Tulsa needs to find alternative employment. The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Copy and paste is now a clerical error ffs.

Do you really think that this was a mistake by someone in Tulsa?
It just happened that it happened to be sgt mcabe the whistleblower.
Sad sad day for our little country

Boggy Turf

BENDYBINN wrote: »

Do you really think that this was a mistake by someone in Tulsa?
It just happened that it happened to be sgt mcabe the whistleblower.
Sad sad day for our little country

It's a sad day when senior Government/Garda members are so so arrogant and dismissive of the public that they try to con us by saying the 'copy&paste' mistake was a genuine clerical error. As Kerrigan said..."Of all the files in the all the world..."

suicide_circus

Boggy Turf wrote: »

It's a sad day when senior Government/Garda members are so so arrogant and dismissive of the public that they try to con us by saying the 'copy&paste' mistake was a genuine clerical error. As Kerrigan said..."Of all the files in the all the world..."

It really shows what utter contempt these people have for the general public. A lame paper-thin excuse and theyre sticking with it.

hardCopy

Jim O'Callaghan hung Fitzgerald out to dry this morning. She stated on RTE yesterday that the first mention she heard of Tusla was on Prime Time last week. He says he told her about it the day before the show and that it was going to be on Prime Time.

She's been caught lying now and surely has to go. She can take O'Sullivan with her.

chicorytip

Fitzgerald should never have been appointed to a position which is clearly way beyond the level of her capabilities. I admire Kenny for his strong leadership during the recession but he has shown a serious lack of judgement in many of his appointments to key positions by simply rewarding blind loyalty to the leader with unmerited promotions.

Mr McBoatface

Garda Superintendent David Taylor cleared of leaking information - http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0213/852335-gardai-dave-taylor/

DPP has directed there should be no prosecution in relation to the investigation which saw David Taylor suspended for 22 months. Taylor made a protected disclosure in which he said he was directed by senior garda management to spread malicious rumours about Sgt Maurice McCabe, the disclosure was made to Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald. The investigation was conducted by Garda Commissioner's husband Chief Superintendent Jim McGowan.

The DPP washing it's hands of the stink of corruption. Unbelievable stuff

Phoebas

hardCopy wrote: »

Jim O'Callaghan hung Fitzgerald out to dry this morning. She stated on RTE yesterday that the first mention she heard of Tusla was on Prime Time last week. He says he told her about it the day before the show and that it was going to be on Prime Time.

She's been caught lying now and surely has to go. She can take O'Sullivan with her.

We have, at best, a 'he said, she said' conflict. How do you manage to elevate that into 'She's been caught lying'?

nhunter100

Phoebas wrote:

We have, at best, a 'he said, she said' conflict. How do you manage to elevate that into 'She's been caught lying'?

Seems Zappone is saying Enda is lying as is Fitzgerald, not a good day the two at the top of FG.

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

Off topic posts / insults deleted.

slavetothegrind

Time for an externally led purge.

Will we see it?

slavetothegrind

Why not appoint a uk originated commissioner and management team to an Garda siochana.

A fresh start, inject some moral, some good practise, and fund them to change the things they need to change.

Then we can herd unicorns......

beggars_bush

Bringing in an external expert is the first admission of huge failings in the gardai

this will be kept in-house

Water John

Remarkably simple. JOC is a barrister and needs in the course of such work to be very aware of the words uttered.

FrancieBrady

Just getting worse. I cannot see Enda and his government surviving this. Every Prime Time seems to bring new revelations. Deasy turning the knife in his leader seems to imply a leadership push.

Boggy Turf

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Just getting worse. I cannot see Enda and his government surviving this. Every Prime Time seems to bring new revelations. Deasy turning the knife in his leader seems to imply a leadership push.

You should watch Vincent Brown.

He lays it out in black and white why O'Sullivan should be long gone.

drunkmonkey

slavetothegrind wrote: »

Why not appoint a uk originated commissioner and management team to an Garda siochana.

A fresh start, inject some moral, some good practise, and fund them to change the things they need to change.

Then we can herd unicorns......

Didn't they try that before, didn't end well.

FrancieBrady

Boggy Turf wrote: »

You should watch Vincent Brown.

He lays it out in black and white why O'Sullivan should be long gone.

I did and T. Dooley. Can't understand FF not pulling the trigger, unless they are afraid or know of some blowback coming for them.

Mr.Micro

I think Enda should step aside now and FG elect a new leader. Commissioner O Sullivan should also step aside, whilst the allegations are looked at. FF are waiting in the long grass for the opportunity to spring an election with them high in the polls. The short term memory of the electorate, shorter than that of a goldfish. I don't buy this stuff about backing the Commissioner, just because she refutes the claims. It's more about opportunism for FF and Commissioner O Sullivan is just a pawn to buy time.

Water John

With the Tribunal being broadcast, a first, things could develop a momentum of their own.
The public will be able to judge for themselves.

pilly

Water John wrote: »

With the Tribunal being broadcast, a first, things could develop a momentum of their own.
The public will be able to judge for themselves.

Not sure if the whole thing is going to be broadcast though is it?

Water John

Don't know, but the Chairman's opening statement was really impressive.
Clear, we at this stage know what is permissable at a Tribunal. He's going to get on with it.
Hope he's allowed set a template for future ones.
Also, anyone telling porkies or disrupting the Tribunal will be frowned on severely.

pilly

Water John wrote: »

Don't know, but the Chairman's opening statement was really impressive.
Clear, we at this stage know what is permissable at a Tribunal. He's going to get on with it.
Hope he's allowed set a template for future ones.
Also, anyone telling porkies or disrupting the Tribunal will be frowned on severely.

Yes and hopefully there won't be the merry go round of answering everything apart from the actual question put to them.

Water John

Noreen Feehily seems to be losing her patience with the Commissioner.
'Can you produce a thing called a Report, with a start and a finish'.

Seriously unhappy with some info being supplied at 8.30 pm last night.
Then the porkie saying she did not think it was coming up at today's meeting.
Feehily having none of it.

Seth Brundle

Context?

Water John

The Commissioner met the Policing Authority in public today.
Some relevant docs arrived with Noreen Feehily at 8.30pm last night.

There was a disagreement between O'Sullivan and Feehily about what was on the agenda. Feehily said O'Sullivan was well aware two weeks ago.
The interim report on Breath Testing simply stated was was going to be done.
Feehily was not impressed.