VDSL2 Long Reach 2

bk

Another interesting development coming out of the UK is talk of an upgrade to VDSL called VDSL 2 Long Reach 2.

Currently VDSL2 tops out at 2km from that cab, giving 7Mb/s at 2km and no VDSL is possible beyond that.

With the proposed VDSL2 Long Reach 2, they predict that they can upgrade the 7Mb/s at 2km to 25Mb/s at 2km, but also extend VDSL use out as far as 5km, giving 10Mb/s at 3.5km and 7Mb/s at 4km.

Now while 7Mb/s to 10Mb/s might not sound so exciting, for people on 3.5km ADSL in rural Ireland, they can expect speeds of about just 1Mb/s. The jump from 1Mb/s to 10Mb/s can make a massive difference, allowing the person to go from basically not being able to do internet video streaming at any decent picture quality at all, to suddenly being able to do 10Mb/s!

It could be a nice upgrade for people until FTTH gets rolled out.

The downside of this technology seems to be that you have to move all the ADSL customers on the exchange to VDSL2, as this new mode uses some of the ADSL spectrum. That could be a costly upgrade for only a little improvement.

While I find this idea interesting, I think it is less likely to be deployed here in Ireland then G.Fast/FTTC. The interest in this tech in the UK is due to the UK government setting the broadband USO at a miserly 10Mb/s for the whole country by 2020. While Ireland seems to be following the EU goal of 30Mb/s by 2020 (even if we don't really make it) and Eir seems to be very enthusiastic about reaching that goal.

The 30Mb/s goal can't be reached with this VDSL2-LR2 tech, only FTTH can achieve that, but the UK goal of 10Mb/s just might be reachable with this technology.

I really hope Eir doesn't pick up on this technology (at least not as an alternative to FTTH) and instead continues to drive out FTTH in rural Ireland.

ED E

If they were going to expand their usage they probably would go from 17a to 30 but why not do that from the start. Modifying the CLFMP would be a major regulatory task and BT Ireland could well object.

tsue921i8wljb3

Jesus BT are really going to attempt to sweat every last bit from that ageing copper network.

The Cush

From the recently published submissions to the Comreg consultation on pricing of wholesale services in the WLA market and in the WCA markets

https://www.comreg.ie/publication/non-confidential-submissions-consultation-1726-pricing-obligations-markets-3a-wla-3b-wca/

ALTO also notes that Eir has announced to industry a trial of longer distance cabinet based VDSL suggesting potential changes to this deployment. Given the higher costs of FTTH to FTTC it would be surprising that Eir would always commercially choose the more expensive FTTH option that also is more difficult to deploy.

We [BT] also note Eircom has announced to industry a trial of longer distance cabinet based VDSL suggesting potential changes to this deployment. Given the higher costs of FTTH to FTTC it would be surprising that Eircom would always commercially choose the more expensive FTTH option which also is more difficult to deploy.

Is this the same technology BT Openreach are trialling in the UK? Last Feb, cabinets in Kesh and Pomeroy (NI) were included in the LR-VDSL2 trial

ED E

Interesting document. The question is which vendor are they trialling on.

jd

You might find this interesting
http://www.telecomtv.com/articles/fttx/huawei-improves-dsl-vectoring-with-better-speed-gains-and-longer-reach-11975/

Noel82

Would this increase the attainable speed for those say 1KM away from the cabinet?

ED E

Noel82 wrote: »

Would this increase the attainable speed for those say 1KM away from the cabinet?

Depends on the individual line characteristics but its if you're over 900m and and less than 40_10 BT would consider you.

At 66 metres (a distance that BT says encompasses around 80 per cent of its connections), G.fast delivered 696Mbit/s, although these results were obtained in controlled trials.

This is an interesting figure from JDs link. BK is very pro GFast but Im skeptical and this is the crux of it. With our current network I suspect 80% of subs is somewhere after 800m even with 9000 cabinets nationally.

In laboratory testing with some of Europe’s telecoms operators (who wish to remain anonymous for now), it measured results that show the SuperVector prototype can achieve 400Mbit/s over 300 meters of copper

I'd love to know if this is all CO side, a full CPE swap would be painful and potentially shaft anyone with 3rd party gear.

jd

ED E wrote: »

I'd love to know if this is all CO side, a full CPE swap would be painful and potentially shaft anyone with 3rd party gear.

Only those who want to use super vectoring would need a new cpe - that's my reading of it.

digiman

ED E wrote: »

This is an interesting figure from JDs link. BK is very pro GFast but Im skeptical and this is the crux of it. With our current network I suspect 80% of subs is somewhere after 800m even with 9000 cabinets nationally.

When you say subs, what exactly do you mean?

Do you mean premises which are eligible for VDSL (connected and not connected)?

My estimate would be over half of VDSL enabled premise would be within 800m of the cabinet.

The Cush

jd wrote: »

You might find this interesting
http://www.telecomtv.com/articles/fttx/huawei-improves-dsl-vectoring-with-better-speed-gains-and-longer-reach-11975/

So the technology is Hauwei's SuperVector solution, up to a bandwidth of 35MHz, Profiles 17a & 35b (G.993.2 Annex Q). The BT Openreach LR-VDSL trial uses Profile 8b (8.5MHz), the same profile used here for eVDSL.

http://www.huawei.com/en/news/2016/10/Large-Capacity-SuperVector-Solution
http://carrier.huawei.com/en/technical-topics/fixed-network/super-vector

Looks like an interim high speed, lower cost solution for FTTC areas to compete with SIRO's urban FTTH rollout while eir rollout FTTH to rural areas. Haven't seen a distance vs. speed comparison for SuperVector as against regular vectored VDSL2. Alcatel-Lucent (now Nokia) developed a similar technology called Vplus.

The Cush

Super Vectoring profiles expected to be added to Delta PreQual File/Bitstream Profiles file during 2018 according to a proposed update to the NGA IPM



http://www.openeir.ie/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=5178

Marlow

The Cush wrote: »

Super Vectoring profiles expected to be added to Delta PreQual File/Bitstream Profiles file during 2018 according to a proposed update to the NGA IPM

Jup. According to some of the router vendors, they've been already testing it extensively in Ireland, so there's a good chance of it turning up in the next few months.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

Will they use it on eVDSL? Wasn't there some issue with vectoring from certain exchanges or was that resolved?

Marlow

Ayla Blue Glue wrote: »

Will they use it on eVDSL? Wasn't there some issue with vectoring from certain exchanges or was that resolved?

17a and 35b can co-exist as it is. G.fast would eliminate both 17a and 35b. Not compatible. Meaning all routers, that aren't compatible, have to be replaced on upgrade.

/M

The Cush

Ayla Blue Glue wrote: »

Will they use it on eVDSL? Wasn't there some issue with vectoring from certain exchanges or was that resolved?

The potential risk of electrical interference by eVDSL on cVDSL services, resolved back in mid 2015.

Comreg summary - https://www.comreg.ie/publication-download/approval-for-amendment-to-technical-standards-to-allow-evdsl-services

Technical reports - https://www.comreg.ie/publication-download/evaluation-of-the-proposal-to-allow-vdsl2-from-the-local-exchange-evdsl-in-ireland
https://www.comreg.ie/publication-download/impact-analysis-of-vdsl2-from-the-local-exchange-evsdl-on-vdsl2-from-the-cabinet-cvdsl

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=95868147#post95868147
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057526314

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

Super Vectoring profiles expected to be added to Delta PreQual File/Bitstream Profiles file during 2018 according to a proposed update to the NGA IPM



http://www.openeir.ie/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=5178

Came across this on etenders, a Comreg tender in relation to a change to the CLFMP, published last Nov.

Short description
ComReg T05496 - Provision of services in relation to assessment of changes to the CLFMP

Detailed description
Provision of services in relation to assessment of changes to the CLFMP
- the Services comprise of the provision of assistance to Commission for Communications Regulation (ComReg) regarding approving changes to the Copper Loop Frequency Management Plan (“CLFMP”) to extend the usable frequency spectrum from 17.66 MHz up to 35.328 MHz.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=121467&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders

Appendix 1: Requirements and specifications
...
The CLFMP (Copper Loop Frequency Management Plan) governs the type of equipment which is allowed to be deployed by operators on Eircom’s (the incumbent operator) copper plant. It is designed to ensure that any possible inference issues are minimised.

The current version of the CLFMP permits frequencies up to 17.66 Mhz to facilitate VDSL services. Currently the maximum profile deployed for VDSL caps the maximum obtainable bits rate with vectoring to 100Mbit/s. An operator has proposed an amendment to the CLFMP to extend used frequency spectrum up to 35.328 Mhz.

ComReg approval is required to change the CLFMP. To ensure that ComReg is appropriately informed before making a decision to approve or reject the proposed change to the CLFMP, ComReg is seeking input from relevant technical experts.

Marlow

I don't see why they're making such a big fuss about it, as it doesn't kill the existing infrastructure. I would understand, that they'd need to go through the tendering process, if it killed other products off.

I've had some great results with a micro DSLAM setup with a customized firmware running 30a, which uses 30 MHz wide bandwidth



This particular setup can archieve 100 Mbit/s both ways on up to 400m using cat2 cabling (3km if cat5 was used).

I haven't tested how far it manages to maintain the 100 Mbit/s with the Fritz!Box, yet. But it copes with fairly shoddy cabling.

/M

ED E

Dropping this in here for reference.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Today's APQ file from open eir, coincidentally, contains supervectored profiles. The highest download speed I've seen has been 250Mb/s.

Marlow

It's supposed to be available in the next 48 hours or so. I checked with OpenEIR.

/M

ED E

Marlow

Is the F2000 actually supervectoring capable ?

I'd wonder, what Eir retail is going to use for supervectoring.

Fritz!Box wise, only the 7582 and 7590 support it currently. There's another model, the 7530, that will be launched in September, that will also handle it.

/M

tsue921i8wljb3

Marlow wrote: »

Is the F2000 actually supervectoring capable ?

I'd wonder, what Eir retail is going to use for supervectoring.

Fritz!Box wise, only the 7582 and 7590 support it currently. There's another model, the 7530, that will be launched in September, that will also handle it.

/M

Looking at the Huawei site it doesn't seem to be and they have a specific device suitable for supervectoring, the DN8245W.

http://e.huawei.com/in/products/fixed-network/access/ft/dn8245w

ED E

Wonder if they'll relabel it as a HG for mass deployment.

SHODAN might be useful to spot live devices.

The Real B-man

Wonder will ISP's charge you for the privilege besides a new Modem or offer current "upto" speeds option,  i would be interested to see the difference currently im on the full 100/20 profile a jump to 200 or even 300 would sway be from changing to VM if it was available in my area.

Marlow

The Real B-man wrote: »

Wonder will ISP's charge you for the privilege besides a new Modem or offer current "upto" speeds option,  i would be interested to see the difference currently im on the full 100/20 profile a jump to 200 or even 300 would sway be from changing to VM if it was available in my area.

Speeds faster than 100 will more than likely cost more. 150, 300 and 1000 Mbit/s FTTH don't cost the same either.

It costs the ISP to provide the extra bandwidth.

/M

The Real B-man

Marlow wrote: »

The Real B-man wrote: »

Wonder will ISP's charge you for the privilege besides a new Modem or offer current "upto" speeds option,  i would be interested to see the difference currently im on the full 100/20 profile a jump to 200 or even 300 would sway be from changing to VM if it was available in my area.

Speeds faster than 100 will more than likely cost more. 150, 300 and 1000 Mbit/s FTTH don't cost the same either.

It costs the ISP to provide the extra bandwidth.

/M

True but at least FTTH can at least guarantee sync speed of those advertised, there would be a very limited few capable of 300mb with a 300 meter radius of the local FTTC cab.
They will charge you the same if you can get 7mb or 100mb at present will it be a case your line is tested to see if you qualify for a higher speed and package price or just charge you for 300mb and you only get 100mb i would be surprised if that wasn't the case as it always has being.

ED E

Marlow wrote: »

Speeds faster than 100 will more than likely cost more. 150, 300 and 1000 Mbit/s FTTH don't cost the same either.

It costs the ISP to provide the extra bandwidth.

We started VDSL with a two tier pricing structure from OE but I thought that changed in ~16 so that a 50Mb and a 100Mb profile cost the same causing retail ISPs to dump the "budget" packages.

If Im right there then I suspect it'll be kept in the same pricing structure to compete with VM/SIRO rather than make a few euro now and hemorrhage market share later.

Gonzo

I presumed everyone on FTTC would get the upgrade but really only those very close to the cabinet would see some proper speed upgrades?

If they are thinking of locking the higher speeds behind a more expensive option, they should only offer it to those who can take advantage of the new speed. No point letting customers pay to upgrade to a 150-250 package if they are only going to get 100 or less.

ED E

Gonzo wrote: »

I presumed everyone on FTTC would get the upgrade but really only those very close to the cabinet would see some proper speed upgrades?

Well, 800m away covers most of an urban/suburban cabs area.

Marlow

Gonzo wrote: »

I presumed everyone on FTTC would get the upgrade but really only those very close to the cabinet would see some proper speed upgrades?

If they are thinking of locking the higher speeds behind a more expensive option, they should only offer it to those who can take advantage of the new speed. No point letting customers pay to upgrade to a 150-250 package if they are only going to get 100 or less.

The operators know ahead of time, what the line is capable of.

Also, any operator could make up any odd package. (30, 50, 70, 100, 150, 175, 200, 225, 250 or whatever) and tier the pricing. That's at their own choice.

The fact is that the line pricing isn't the only component of what a VDSL line costs. You either pay traffic charges to OpenEir or you bring your own infrastructure as near to the exchange as possible.

So the bigger the line (and usage), the bigger the cost to the operator.

That will very much be reflected in the pricing.

The market then has been blinded with discounted pricing for the first 6 months. Even 3 tier pricing (first 6 months, then another pricing for 6 months, the regular pricing out of contract).

Because of this, some providers actually price their VDSL packages very low. 40 EUR/month retail with the current wholesale cost for the line and traffic by OpenEir is barely sustainable unless other revenue is added (phone, tv, etc)

With the wide band of speed being available on VDSL, I definatly see providers maybe migrating to different speed offerings. Like up to 50, 70-100, 125-250 and for those who can't get the faster speeds then to only get offered the cheaper bracket.

Eir retail VDSL without bells and whistles is 56 EUR/month. That's the guideline to measure if somebody is cheap or expensive.

/M