Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Vectoring near to the exchange

Options
  • 23-11-2015 12:51pm
    #1
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭


    I'm curious about the current regulations in Ireland. Can Eircom vector cabinets that are <550m from the exchange? I know that direct fed is not vectored, right? But what about actual cabinet fed that just happens to be very close to the exchange, what are the rules there?

    For some context:
    Here in Germany it is forbidden to use vectoring on any cabinet within 550m of the exchange, because it apparently causes interference to the other lines. In Germany we have LLU as well, so Vodafone or Telefonica or whoever can install their DSLAMs inside Deutsche Telekom exchanges, just like BT did in Ireland.

    The German regulator is however expected today to grant Deutsche Telekom a hardware monopoly on lines affected by this 800m regulation, because so many households are now limited to ADSL2+ speeds and because the exchanges are typically quite centrally located, the numbers of affected premises is high. Telekom says for its part, that if they get the go ahead (Vodafone etc. will have to remove or disconnect their exchange mounted VDSL equipment, though they can continue offering ADSL on LLU lines from the exchange) that they will upgrade every single cabinet within the 550m zones (there are 8,000 exchanges in Germany) within 3 years to vectored VDSL.

    The promise of upgrading every single exchange is seen as a political pre-requisite for any such monopoly status being granted to Telekom because it is the only way that rural exchanges with a handful of lines are going to be upgraded. Nobody is interested in them otherwise and many (really very many) have "DSL Light" (something like .500kbps download, 128 upload) and are not on the radar for any upgrades. In this way, Telekom says it will cross subsidise the loss making rural exchanges from the profitable urban ones and they say it's "all or nothing".


«13

Comments

  • Options
    #2
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    The Austrians were brought in to do a technical review. They found that VDSL cabs interfere in the downstream direction and DF lines with high PSD interfere in the upstream direction.

    Theres a comreg publicised report, I cant't remember the number but if you search for fixed line pubs it'll be there.

    EDIT: Check this
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=94075907


  • Options
    #3
    joe_99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 763 ✭✭✭joe_99


    There is no restriction on cabinet distances from the exchange. When making their decision ComReg did look at practices across Europe but after an extensive consultation it was decided that the network topology in Ireland was such that the level of interference from cabinets close to exchanges was negligible. Vectoring from exchanges is due to launch in the new year when a regime will be put in place to stop two VDSL providers from vectoring in the same exchange. I would expect 90% of exchanges to have vectoring applied. Only the big LLU exchanges will be left out.


  • Options
    #4
    sennah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭sennah


    joe_99 wrote: »
    There is no restriction on cabinet distances from the exchange. When making their decision ComReg did look at practices across Europe but after an extensive consultation it was decided that the network topology in Ireland was such that the level of interference from cabinets close to exchanges was negligible. Vectoring from exchanges is due to launch in the new year when a regime will be put in place to stop two VDSL providers from vectoring in the same exchange. I would expect 90% of exchanges to have vectoring applied. Only the big LLU exchanges will be left out.

    That's interesting news joe99

    Are there many exchanges left in the country with LLU operators? I'd imagine BT and maybe Digiweb (via Smart) are the only LLU operators

    Will exchange vectoring be running across all cards in the exchange or will they just be vectoring the VDSL equipment?


  • Options
    #5
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    They can only vector VDSL kit as far as I know, the old line cards arent capable.

    Number I've heard is less than 150 LLU of just over 900 DSL exchanges.


  • Options
    #6
    sennah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭sennah


    ED E wrote: »
    They can only vector VDSL kit as far as I know, the old line cards arent capable.

    Number I've heard is less than 150 LLU of just over 900 DSL exchanges.

    Wow! I didn't think there'd be anywhere near 150 exchanges LLU'd. That's quite a few exchanges that will miss out and it will likely be the larger exchanges unfortunately

    Interesting on vectoring too as I thought for exchange vectoring to be effective they had to vector across all cards but maybe we'll see it rolled out quicker now on account of this


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    joe_99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 763 ✭✭✭joe_99


    sennah wrote: »
    That's interesting news joe99

    Are there many exchanges left in the country with LLU operators? I'd imagine BT and maybe Digiweb (via Smart) are the only LLU operators

    Will exchange vectoring be running across all cards in the exchange or will they just be vectoring the VDSL equipment?

    There are about 100 LLU exchanges but I would only expect LLU operators to install VDSL DSLAMs in the larger ones. Where they do this there will be no vectoring as the two vectored DSLAMs will effectively cancel each other out so operators have agreed not to vector in these circumstances.

    Vectoring will only be applied to VDSL


  • Options
    #8
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Evdsl vectoring information from a proposed open eir contract document published on their website
    ANNEX E

    Protocol for enabling vectoring on Exchange launched VDSL (EVDSL)

    open eir and Access Seekers acknowledge that a co-operative approach is required to strike a fair balance between promoting the interest of end users through the provision of broadband services with the highest speed possible whilst also enabling competition. Operators acknowledge that disruption to end users should be minimised to the maximum extent possible.

    Process for already unbundled exchanges and exchanges in the process of establishing unbundling

    1. The use of vectoring is not permitted from an exchange where more than one operator is providing an EVDSL service.

    2. On an exchange by exchange basis an operator REBRANDED EVDSL must notify all Active EVDSL Operators* at least four (4) months prior to launching EVDSL from an exchange. The operators may choose to request the assistance of ComReg in this task

    3. An operator intending to enable vectoring at any LLU exchange must provide a minimum of 3 months' notice of implementation

    4. Prior to activating LLU EVDSL, Operators must ensure that they verify that the lines for which they intend to serve using EVDSL are eligible for EVDSL. Please refer to the Guidelines in the NGA IPM on LLU eVDSL.

    5. Any operator already using vectoring technology at an exchange included or notified for inclusion in the schedule shall disable all vectoring, providing appropriate notice to their customers as required, in advance of the notified deployment date.

    a. Operators shall manage their communication with their customers on this subject without naming specific operators that led to vectoring being disabled.

    An Operator may enable vectoring if the second Operator’s EVDSL deployment has not been implemented within three (3) months after their notified deployment date. The option to launch does not automatically expire if the operator is late. If an operator becomes aware that it will miss a launch date communicated per paragraph 2 above by more than one (1) month then the operator must either withdraw the request or justify the delay and provide a revised launch date to all Active EVDSL Operators without delay.

    In the case of an operator unbundling an exchange for the first time the operator shall use the process in paragraph 2 above if it intends to launch VDSL.

    *An Active EVDSL Operator is an operator that has deployed EVDSL equipment and has previously given notice per paragraph 2.

    http://www.openeir.ie/WorkArea/DownloadAsset.aspx?id=2964


  • Options
    #9
    sennah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭sennah


    The Cush wrote: »
    Evdsl vectoring information from a proposed open eir contract document published on their website

    This looks hopeful that we might see evdsl launch quite soon on non-LLU exchanges or am I reading it wrong and they've to give four months notice for ALL exchanges?

    I've read some of Huawei's papers and from my understanding they just have to add a vectoring module to the new VDSL boards. Would these modules be already in-place and just require a change to the config or does enabling vectoring require boots on the ground?


  • Options
    #10
    mass_debater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭mass_debater


    I've been told the cards have been in place since they launched, just not enabled


  • Options
    #11
    sennah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭sennah


    mass_debater wrote: »
    I've been told the cards have been in place since they launched, just not enabled

    It would make sense in that it will negate the need for multiple exchange visits whenever they decide to make the move. I imagine one guy at his terminal can remotely light up vectoring in a handful of exchanges in a few clicks

    I asked were the vectoring modules already in place as I don't imagine these little cards come too cheaply! I've spent a few evenings reading up on the subject and while most of it goes over my head, some of the facts and figures are quite amazing. From the sheer amount of raw data generated every second for crosstalk calculations and to then imagine the level of real-time processing taking place to mitigate this crosstalk. Fair play to eircom (and Huawei!)


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    All the MSANs have the cards, its enabled and tested by eircom NOC in Citywest .


  • Options
    #13
    ClonNGB
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭ClonNGB


    Anybody heard if eVDSL vectoring is going to happen this year ?


  • Options
    #14
    mass_debater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭mass_debater


    ClonNGB wrote: »
    Anybody heard if eVDSL vectoring is going to happen this year ?

    Yes, a few weeks ago I heard January but have not heard anything since q


  • Options
    #15
    Dcully
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 14,692 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dcully


    Does this mean the cab I'm connected to which is about 400M from exchange might get vectoring?

    I'm less than 100m from the cab getting 70/20 speed and have been told over a year now they are awaiting this cab to be vectored before I can get closer to 100mb.


  • Options
    #16
    mass_debater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭mass_debater


    Dcully wrote: »
    Does this mean the cab I'm connected to which is about 400M from exchange might get vectoring?

    I'm less than 100m from the cab getting 70/20 speed and have been told over a year now they are awaiting this cab to be vectored before I can get closer to 100mb.

    Some cabs never get vectored.


  • Options
    #17
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    In theory when something bigger than NLV comes along they could be, but for now some may be excluded completely.


  • Options
    #18
    ClonNGB
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭ClonNGB


    mass_debater wrote: »
    Yes, a few weeks ago I heard January but have not heard anything since q

    January gone and no vectoring on the DF lines....has anybody heard any updates ?


  • Options
    #19
    Tweaky
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭Tweaky


    Just bumping this thread - anyone have any updates on vectoring for direct fed lines ?

    Thanks


  • Options
    #20
    joe_99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 763 ✭✭✭joe_99


    Tweaky wrote: »
    Just bumping this thread - anyone have any updates on vectoring for direct fed lines ?

    Thanks

    I heard it will be another month or two


  • Options
    #21
    joe_99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 763 ✭✭✭joe_99


    Seems a big bunch of exchanges have been vectored in the last week or so


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    If you could only get 40/10 from a direct fed evdsl connection, would vectoring increase the speed or would it only be available to those very close to the exchange?


  • Options
    #23
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    If you could only get 40/10 from a direct fed evdsl connection, would vectoring increase the speed or would it only be available to those very close to the exchange?

    The benefit is 20-30% across the board, from memory the extremes see a lesser impact (say <100m and >1400m) but everyone gets something.


  • Options
    #24
    joe_99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 763 ✭✭✭joe_99


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    If you could only get 40/10 from a direct fed evdsl connection, would vectoring increase the speed or would it only be available to those very close to the exchange?

    Those on 40/10 should get an uplift. Maybe 50/15 would be possible.


  • Options
    #25
    sennah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭sennah


    joe_99 wrote: »
    Seems a big bunch of exchanges have been vectored in the last week or so

    Is there a place to check this or lookout for it? I guess the line checker or fibrerollout.ie map


  • Options
    #26
    ClonNGB
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭ClonNGB


    any news on this anybody ? It was talked about that this should have been available earlier this year but nothing since. Have they found technical reasons not to switch on vectoring for us direct feds ?


  • Options
    #27
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    What will happen for those on LLU connections that are ADSL and will always be ADSL?

    vectoring only a proportion of all xDSl connections could have an impact on the remainder?


  • Options
    #28
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Until such point as ADSL is shut down we'll have OpenEir and BT DSLAMS ticking over unvectored (as they can't be).

    Where vectoring causes problems it has to be left off.


  • Options
    #29
    sennah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭sennah


    ED E wrote: »
    Until such point as ADSL is shut down we'll have OpenEir and BT DSLAMS ticking over unvectored (as they can't be).

    Where vectoring causes problems it has to be left off.

    Are you referring to LLU / multi-operator exchanges here or any exchange with ADSL?


  • Options
    #30
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,515 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    Our local exchange went live mid August, no LLU, up to 70 Mbps, 660 premises, no vectoring.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #31
    sennah
    Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭sennah


    The Cush wrote: »
    Our local exchange went live mid August, no LLU, up to 70 Mbps, 660 premises, no vectoring.

    I don't think any exchange or cab for that matter went live with vectoring enabled from the get go (could be wrong)

    My own exchange and all neighbouring exchanges are live over a year now, no LLU in any of them and no vectoring to be seen :(


Advertisement