Suicide in Ireland.

nacho libre

whatismyname wrote: »

As someone who works in suicide prevention, and who has also been long-term suicidal, attempted suicide on a number of occasions, and known and supported many people when suicidal... I've always been so confused by why people think the above.

E.g. people often so keen to reassure the suicidal person of how much they are loved. Or alternatively after someone has taken their own life people saying things like 'if only they knew how much they were loved' etc.

I am not sure where the belief comes from that people kill themselves because they believe they aren't loved.

A key message in suicide prevention training - and one of the most fundamental points in better understanding suicide - is that in almost all cases where a person is suicidal they don't actually want to die, they just want to stop the pain and difficulties they are experiencing.

I'm really glad that in the suicide prevention training that I've trained to deliver there is nothing about a person who takes their own life believing they weren't loved, as it's a message that is so misleading and generalised that I would be very uncomfortable spreading it.

I've never come across any evidence or even suggestion professionally anywhere that people who kill themselves weren't loved enough, or believe they weren't loved enough.

Most people when suicidal are in a hell of a lot of emotional pain, and that could be for any reason - believing they aren't loved being just one potential of perhaps thousands.

Yes, of course, some people could believe they aren't loved, but it breaks my heart that anyone could have a belief that because someone took their own life this automatically means they weren't loved, or believing they weren't, and even more so to think of anyone spreading this idea.

I'm not disagreeing that that could be the case for some, but it is certainly not automatically the case.

In the depression and anxiety support groups, as one example, I have run I have supported many people when suicidal and I don't remember once anyone saying it was because they weren't loved - the reason was pretty much always that living was too unbearable for whatever reason they were struggling most. In most cases I remember the person feeling struggling a lot with knowing what it would put those who love them through.

For me, when suicidal, I never doubted that I was loved. There was so much evidence of this, and if anything I was acutely aware of it, and it was very hard to deal with. Feeling unable to bear another day living with what was in my head, but also unable to deal with what my death would put people through. The last couple of times I came closest to suicide I put a lot of effort into making it 'easier' for people afterwards, and making sure people knew how much I loved them, and how I hadn't wanted to put them through it.

I'm in a really good place right now, better in a long time, and am so confident that I won't end up taking my own life - but that's something I can't ever know for sure. If that were ever to happen I could list several people in my life who 'get it' and will understand what lay behind it, yet I could just as easily tell you those who won't, especially my family, and I hate that they would think for one second that I thought I wasn't loved, when that wouldn't even remotely be what it was about. But unfortunately that mistaken belief is out there within society, another massive misconception, and it's horrible.

To anyone who's reading this who has lost someone to suicide (unfortunately probably quite a few), unless the person left something to tell you that they believed that they weren't loved, there's probably no way we can know this for sure. There's a lot of generalisations out there that are that are so commonly believed, but your loved one was unique and their death has its own individual story and circumstances, and ultimately can't have any generalisations applied to it.

Apologies, I hadn't intended to type so much...

It sounds like you did not feel self love- i know a lot on here will see that as namby pampy, hippie type talk, but in many cases of suicide it seems the person knows they are loved, but does not feel any self worth or love towards themselves. Of course those left behind feel the've failed the person, which is nonsense. Some people intent on suicide are very good actors outwardly, and the people around will not be able to detect anything is wrong in the lead up to it.

smurgen

I actually think it's one of the most urgent issues in Ireland.I mean the amount of people that die in car accidents vs those killed by suicide must be miniscule yet we enforce laws and spend collasal amounts of money to reduce road related deaths.I'm from Cork city and I know of at least 8 young people who have commuted suicide in the last 2 years.that's from my part of the city alone.the amount of bodies pulled out of the river Lee over Christmas was never higher. All through the winter there was volunteers wearing hi visibility vests looking into the river.

nacho libre

smurgen wrote: »

I actually think it's one of the most urgent issues in Ireland.I mean the amount of people that die in car accidents .

Bear in mind some of those car accidents are down to suicide.

Deathwish4

John Connor: We're not gonna make it, are we? People, I mean.
The Terminator: It's in your nature to destroy yourselves.

lawlolawl

Arghus wrote: »

I've known three people - all young men - who've commited suicide. All of them had problems opening up and discussing how they felt, coupled with that they would have been fond of heavily indulging in binge drinking. I don't feel that I can place any blame on any so called feminist agenda. Being honest, I'd place more blame in outmoded ways of understanding masculinity - young men feeling isolated and estranged, because it's still seen as slightly "weak" to talk about your innermost feelings, at least without the massive emotional crutch of alcohol.

I'm a man, I've never come across this "all men are rapist scumbags" mentality that you talk about.

I don't fully agree with the guy who was blaming feminism but a lot of the reason that young guys aren't willing to open up about their feelings is that they fear being seen as weak by the peers and also by young women. There's no room for the guy who occasionally breaks down because life is getting to him or the guy who is going through a month long slump. They are either ignored or people just stop wanting to be around them.

Young women nowadays are lead to believe that they can "have it all" when it comes to a partner. He has to be manly but sensitive (but show only the right emotions at the exact right times), he has to have his sh1t together from day 1, he has to always be supportive regardless of how he is feeling etc, etc. Basically, he can't have an 'off' day. Some women can be ruthless in how they deal with guys who are interested in them as a result because they only really care about the outcome for themselves in any interactions they have (intentionally or not, i don't know).

This sets up ridiculously high expectations which a lot of perfectly decent lads can't ever reach so this constant dismissive rejection can really put them in a bad frame of mind.

I don't know, maybe i'm completely off base with this and i'm blaming the wrong group of people but i do have a few guy friends who were put through absolute hell by women and it had huge negative effects on their lives.

whatismyname

Minderbinder wrote: »

Is there any evidence that things like 'darkness into light' actually do anything to prevent suicide? I just think if someone is going to commit suicide they will do it and there's little any one can do to stop it. The people who talk to someone are those who wouldn't go through with it anyway.

I don't know much about evidence behind things like Darkness Into Light etc, but in relation to your other point, (that those who are going to end their own lives will go ahead and do it and there's little any one can do to stop it, and that the people who talk to someone are those who won't go through with it) I can understand why many people believe this, but this is another very commonly believed myth about suicide.

See Samaritans myths about suicide:

Myth: People who talk about suicide aren’t serious and won’t go through with it.

Fact: People who kill themselves have often told someone that they do not feel life is worth living or that they have no future. Some may have actually said they want to die. While it’s possible that someone might talk about suicide as a way of getting the attention they need, it’s vitally important to take anybody who talks about feeling suicidal seriously.

I think it is often based on the assumption that people who are suicidal want to die (e.g. if you really are serious about wanting to die, you wouldn't tell someone), but given that suicide in most cases is not about wanting to die but wanting to end your pain, it can make a lot of sense that people can tell people about their suicidal thoughts, but still be quite serious about it, and be as likely to take their own life as someone who is keeping those thoughts to themselves.

Some people who talk about it will go through with it, some won't. Exact same with those who keep it to themselves - some will end up taking their own lives, some won't.

And while not all suicides can be prevented, and suicide will always happen, there is so much that can be done to prevent it. On an individual basis, even by showing so much empathy and understanding to what a person is feeling and giving them a space to be listened to and explore those thoughts and what lies behind it, we can make a massive difference in easing their pain.

Personally, thinking of those who I've known who've taken their own life, (and I mean people who I knew at the time e.g. not childhood friends who I no longer knew at the time of their death etc.) every one of them was open about their suicidal thoughts, and went on to take their own life.

Most recently I heard from the family of a wonderful gentleman who used to attend the support groups I ran, who got in touch to tell us he had recently killed himself. At his very first meeting a few years ago he was open about his plans for suicide. We as a group did what we could to support him, and over the next couple of years he had both better times and tougher times, but he was a vital part of the group, and gave a lot of support and hope to others who came.

At one of his last meetings, he was open that he was selling a property with his wife, and when that happened he would take his own life, and said he had fought so hard and couldn't do it anymore. We did all we could to support him, encourage him to get help etc, but when his family got in touch to say he had died, I just knew they were likely to say he had killed himself. And overall although it was so hard for his family, I felt glad (not the right word but not sure what is) for him that he was at peace after fighting for so long.

But he and some others have been clear examples for me that it is not a case that the people who talk to someone about it are the ones who won't go through with it anyway.

Similarly, there are people who I've known who've been very suicidal and talked to people about it, who haven't gone on to kill themselves. Every case will be different.

So many complexities, and I wish it was as easy as those who talk to someone about it won't do it cos it would be much easier all round if that is the case.

I also think the danger in people believing this myth is that people who do reach out and talk are dismissed (even the professionals often get this one very wrong), and not given the help they need precisely because they are reaching out.

So much irony in it. We tell people to reach out and talk, yet when people do there's often a strong belief in society that this means they're less at risk...

whatismyname

nacho libre wrote: »

It sounds like you did not feel self love- i know a lot on here will see that as namby pampy, hippie type talk, but in many cases of suicide it seems the person knows they are loved, but does not feel any self worth or love towards themselves.

Since you're mentioning what my specific case sounds like to you, I can confirm that even if that was true for me, my case when suicidal was much, much more complex than that, and the reasons behind my suicidal episodes and the way I acted when in an episode were much more complex than being primarily either about how much love I felt from others, or how much love I felt towards myself. And it was definitely far from the primary issue needing worked on to get me to a better place.

It may be true that in many cases a person doesn't feel much love towards themselves, but I'd personally be more comfortable with less focus on how much love a person did or didn't feel from others or towards themselves.

Even where it does play a part, it is often so much more complex than that, so I'd say it's important to at least recognise that, as we'll miss so much if we focus overly on the love aspect, when there's often so much else involved, and as always it's important that we don't generalise, as it could be a part of it, but so too could anything else...

PS when I mentioned avoiding generalising, that's just me giving my thoughts generally, not saying that the person I was responding to generalised, which I don't think they did

FalconGirl

smurgen wrote: »

I actually think it's one of the most urgent issues in Ireland.I mean the amount of people that die in car accidents vs those killed by suicide must be miniscule yet we enforce laws and spend collasal amounts of money to reduce road related deaths.I'm from Cork city and I know of at least 8 young people who have commuted suicide in the last 2 years.that's from my part of the city alone.the amount of bodies pulled out of the river Lee over Christmas was never higher. All through the winter there was volunteers wearing hi visibility vests looking into the river.

Very valid point and in my opinion its our most urgent issue today. The governments attitude is shameful in the sense that they couldn't give a flying fiddlers about it. What good is a strong economy if our society is teetering on the edge? I think similar to how we reduced road deaths in the past decade we should be putting initiatives in place to reduce suicides.

Arghus

lawlolawl wrote: »

I don't fully agree with the guy who was blaming feminism but a lot of the reason that young guys aren't willing to open up about their feelings is that they fear being seen as weak by the peers and also by young women. There's no room for the guy who occasionally breaks down because life is getting to him or the guy who is going through a month long slump. They are either ignored or people just stop wanting to be around them.

Young women nowadays are lead to believe that they can "have it all" when it comes to a partner. He has to be manly but sensitive (but show only the right emotions at the exact right times), he has to have his sh1t together from day 1, he has to always be supportive regardless of how he is feeling etc, etc. Basically, he can't have an 'off' day. Some women can be ruthless in how they deal with guys who are interested in them as a result because they only really care about the outcome for themselves in any interactions they have (intentionally or not, i don't know).

This sets up ridiculously high expectations which a lot of perfectly decent lads can't ever reach so this constant dismissive rejection can really put them in a bad frame of mind.

I don't know, maybe i'm completely off base with this and i'm blaming the wrong group of people but i do have a few guy friends who were put through absolute hell by women and it had huge negative effects on their lives.

Oh, absolutely - I have no doubt that there are many, many young men who are put through hell by some women. But, equally, I have no doubt - and know of instances that conform to this exactly - that there's just as many young women put through hell by men.

When you are talking about selfish behaviour, I think that's a feature present in both genders. I've seen lovely people, of both sexes, chewed up and spat out by selfish fools.

In my experience, the fear of opening up can be just that - a fear. In my life I've always found that a lot women appreciate a man being unafraid to show genuine vulnerability: It shows another side, away from the surface level machismo. I think the pressure to be this perfect male is kind of an invention, that I think a lot of people know isn't really an obtainable reality - I certainly never feel that I have to be Mr. Perfect constantly with my own girlfriend, I have my ups and downs - just like she does. I think what you say about an expectation propagated at women to find an unfindable Mr. Right, is equally matched by the pressure and guilt they're fed about what they eat, how they look etc, etc, etc...