Tottenham v Southampton

mushykeogh

Martin567 wrote: »

The last 10 are significantly more difficult. You can't realistically expect to pick up 25 points from every run of 10 games. Any team doing that would finish up with almost 100 points.

Of course not, but as i said originally, the last 6 or so games. Presume we beat newcastle, Pochs final 6 games for the last three seasons reads 8, 10,and 11 points from a possible 18.

Now, do those points look like they are coming from a team finishing strongly or not?. It seems obvious to me. As we are talking about a team losing steam toward the end of a season it makes sense that you look at the last 6-10 games, rather than 14 or 20!

Anyway, all I'm saying is i think we faded towards the end of last season and also this season. I said last season that playing a high intensity running game is less about developing fitness and more about clearing fatigue as the season progresses, accumulation of fatigue is a difficult thing to manage over a season.

p.s. As it stands we have the lowest points total from last 6 games in the top 8! But were finishing strongly aren't we?!

MrKingsley

Do you not think that losing a shot at the title comes into play at all?

Do you think the drop off between stoke and wba (2nd half) was purely physical? And had nothing to do with the pressure they were under

mushykeogh

MrKingsley wrote: »

Do you not think that losing a shot at the title comes into play at all?

Do you think the drop off between stoke and wba (2nd half) was purely physical? And had nothing to do with the pressure they were under

Possibly, you could make lots of arguments about the west brom, chelsea and southampton games about pressure, fatigue, disappointment. Im just looking at the Poch trend over 3 seasons, for me when you plot the curve of results at the end of the season its dropping off.

Kimsang

mushykeogh wrote: »

Of course not, but as i said originally, the last 6 or so games. Presume we beat newcastle, Pochs final 6 games for the last three seasons reads 8, 10,and 11 points from a possible 18.

Now, do those points look like they are coming from a team finishing strongly or not?. It seems obvious to me. As we are talking about a team losing steam toward the end of a season it makes sense that you look at the last 6-10 games, rather than 14 or 20!

Anyway, all I'm saying is i think we faded towards the end of last season and also this season. I said last season that playing a high intensity running game is less about developing fitness and more about clearing fatigue as the season progresses, accumulation of fatigue is a difficult thing to manage over a season.

p.s. As it stands we have the lowest points total from last 6 games in the top 8! But were finishing strongly aren't we?!

3 seasons is a tiny sample size, especially when it doesn't take quality of opposition into consideration.

I know what you're getting at though, you're saying that mopo's training regime is too gruelling and his teams burn out at the end of seasons. i have read many a lazy journalists article about this, all just giving 2 seasons at southampton as 'evidence'.

We have a young squad, with all the weakness' that brings, but one of our strengths must be workrate and energy levels.

Martin567

mushykeogh wrote: »

Of course not, but as i said originally, the last 6 or so games. Presume we beat newcastle, Pochs final 6 games for the last three seasons reads 8, 10,and 11 points from a possible 18.

Two seasons ago wasn't even with Spurs so has no relevance.

Victory against Newcastle would mean 11 points from final six games. This is just short of 2 points per game which is close to the average for the season as a whole.

The slip ups have been in the last three games and nothing that happened would indicate to me that it was in any way related to a late season fade out. Much more so not quite managing to deal with the pressure of a title race where there was absolutely no margin for error (against WBA & Chelsea) and simple deflation against Southampton once the title race was over.

Ormus

mushykeogh wrote: »

Of course not, but as i said originally, the last 6 or so games. Presume we beat newcastle, Pochs final 6 games for the last three seasons reads 8, 10,and 11 points from a possible 18.

Now, do those points look like they are coming from a team finishing strongly or not?. It seems obvious to me. As we are talking about a team losing steam toward the end of a season it makes sense that you look at the last 6-10 games, rather than 14 or 20!

Anyway, all I'm saying is i think we faded towards the end of last season and also this season. I said last season that playing a high intensity running game is less about developing fitness and more about clearing fatigue as the season progresses, accumulation of fatigue is a difficult thing to manage over a season.

p.s. As it stands we have the lowest points total from last 6 games in the top 8! But were finishing strongly aren't we?!

You can look at the stats and say there's a pattern, but you're also ignoring other things that you know, such as losing Dembele and Alli, the pressure of the title race, really tough fixtures (away to Pool and Chelsea), 5 of our last 6 matches being against top half sides etc

Is it possible to beat United 3-0 and Stoke 4-0 if your team is tired?

mushykeogh

Kimsang wrote: »

i have read many a lazy journalists article about this, all just giving 2 seasons at southampton as 'evidence'.

As i said, just an observation, haven't presented any evidence. For me, there appears to be a trend of dropping off.

Ormus

mushykeogh wrote: »

As i said, just an observation, haven't presented any evidence. For me, there appears to be a trend of dropping off.

It's actually something I was slightly worried might happen, and I thought it was starting around the time we lost to the Hammers and drew with ten man Arsenal, but then we picked it up again in fine style and have looked full of energy since, even in games we've dropped points in.

DubPerryman

MrKingsley wrote: »

Do you not think that losing a shot at the title comes into play at all?

Completely with this. Football is ridiculously psychological!

Every man, woman and child was deflated after the West Brom match.

Plus, had we beaten West Brom, I have zero doubt you would have seen a very different performance against Chelsea.

As for physical performance, we ran every team in the Premier League off the pitch, but Leicester never gave up. Emotionally and physically the players are bound to feel drained.... but I didn't witness it until Leicester had confirmed their title.

irishmover

Dropping off is dropping off, whether it's mental or physical or players are getting injured or who you play against or blah blah it doesn't matter. Pochs side drop away towards the end of the season.

Leicester have widened the gap from us and Arsenal have closed it. We've dropped off no matter what you you perceive it.

This is something that does need sorting and I hope Pochettino doesn't look at it like most of you.. 'Well we played these teams and some of my players were injured and the pressure so it's acceptable, I'll live it with'.. No. I really hope he doesn't have this mind set and I'm certain he doesn't. He'll be aiming to rectify these problems which occur towards the end of a season as we hopefully mount a realistic title challenge next season.

Ormus

irishmover wrote: »

Dropping off is dropping off, whether it's mental or physical or players are getting injured or who you play against or blah blah it doesn't matter. Pochs side drop away towards the end of the season.

Leicester have widened the gap from us and Arsenal have closed it. We've dropped off no matter what you you perceive it.

This is something that does need sorting and I hope Pochettino doesn't look at it like most of you.. 'Well we played these teams and some of my players were injured and the pressure so it's acceptable, I'll live it with'.. No. I really hope he doesn't have this mind set and I'm certain he doesn't. He'll be aiming to rectify these problems which occur towards the end of a season as we hopefully mount a realistic title challenge next season.

I would hope that Poch has enough brains to take everything into account and not just look at a pattern. If he just looked at the stats then he would be ignoring the fact that he was actually there and knows how they came about. He's better than that.

Martin567

irishmover wrote: »

Dropping off is dropping off, whether it's mental or physical or players are getting injured or who you play against or blah blah it doesn't matter. Pochs side drop away towards the end of the season.

Leicester have widened the gap from us and Arsenal have closed it. We've dropped off no matter what you you perceive it.

This is something that does need sorting and I hope Pochettino doesn't look at it like most of you.. 'Well we played these teams and some of my players were injured and the pressure so it's acceptable, I'll live it with'.. No. I really hope he doesn't have this mind set and I'm certain he doesn't. He'll be aiming to rectify these problems which occur towards the end of a season as we hopefully mount a realistic title challenge next season.

I hate this sort of lazy reasoning that seems to be far more common these days.

All a few of us have done is analyse why points have been dropped in the last three games. There are reasons, primarily inexperience in the first instance and then disappointment once the title race was over. Obviously these are things that need to be learned from so the players do better next time.

It's ridiculous to dismiss these reasons as irrelevant and try to claim that anyone said they were "acceptable". How can anyone learn from anything unless they analyse what the problems were? "Poch's sides drop away towards the end of the season" is a meaningless statement that would leave anyone helpless to do anything about.

Dublin Spur

I think think the 'drop off' since the win at Stoke is mainly due to the lack of quality we have after the first 11 players. Once one or two get injured or suspended we are a hell of a lot weaker. Granted we were at full strength v WBA but we had an off day (it happens)

If Kane's out its Son or Chadli
If Ali or Demeble is out its Mason or Carroll

A club of our size needs to have better options than these.

Our squad was not good enough (in depth) to win the league against a team who had no cup football or injuries after January.

mushykeogh

Martin567 wrote: »

Two seasons ago wasn't even with Spurs so has no relevance.

No but had two seasons at Southampton where the same thing happened. So four premiership seasons where his final six game points total was less than the previous six!

Less of a drop of this season than the previous 3 so maybe next season will be even better.

Martin567

mushykeogh wrote: »

No but had two seasons at Southampton where the same thing happened. So four premiership seasons where his final six game points total was less than the previous six!

Less of a drop of this season than the previous 3 so maybe next season will be even better.

You seem determined to ignore specific analysis of anything in order to fit into some vague pattern. How is it possible to rectify/improve anything without looking at specific reasons?

abff

I think it was FDR who said "there are lies, damn lies and statistics". Basically, you can cherry pick statistics to prove whatever you want to prove.

Please! Give Pochettino a break. Pretty please?

mushykeogh

Martin567 wrote: »

You seem determined to ignore specific analysis of anything in order to fit into some vague pattern. How is it possible to rectify/improve anything without looking at specific reasons?

Im open to the specific analysis of everything. Im sure there are a wide variety of reasons why its happened 4 seasons in a row!:D

MrKingsley

mushykeogh wrote: »

Im open to the specific analysis of everything. Im sure there are a wide variety of reasons why its happened 4 seasons in a row!:D

Im really trying to work out whether your just trolling now.

When we were drawing all those games at the start of the season no one was on here saying the pochettinos teams were slow starters.

Also last year when we started with 11 points from 9 games........

If 11 from 6 games isnt enough then he shouldve gotten the boot 18 months ago I suppose. Wouldve kept of expectations realistic at least.

ziedth

Just to add more fuel to this fairly amusing fire but he won something like 7 of his last 8 games his first season with Espanyol

MrKingsley

Yeah but he was giving his team talks in spanish, or mexican or something. Doesnt count

irishmover

Martin567 wrote: »

I hate this sort of lazy reasoning that seems to be far more common these days.

All a few of us have done is analyse why points have been dropped in the last three games. There are reasons, primarily inexperience in the first instance and then disappointment once the title race was over. Obviously these are things that need to be learned from so the players do better next time.

It's ridiculous to dismiss these reasons as irrelevant and try to claim that anyone said they were "acceptable". How can anyone learn from anything unless they analyse what the problems were? "Poch's sides drop away towards the end of the season" is a meaningless statement that would leave anyone helpless to do anything about.

I don't think you read anything in my post correctly. We're pretty much agreeing with each other.

mushykeogh

ziedth wrote: »

Just to add more fuel to this fairly amusing fire but he won something like 7 of his last 8 games his first season with Espanyol

His last full season with Espanyol ended pretty tamely, although that whole season was poor. Anyway, with the amount of players we will have playing in the Euros it will be interesting to see how we cope with that next season.

Martin567

irishmover wrote: »

I don't think you read anything in my post correctly. We're pretty much agreeing with each other.

It doesn't read like that to me. I certainly don't agree with your earlier post.

golfball37

mushykeogh wrote: »

No but had two seasons at Southampton where the same thing happened. So four premiership seasons where his final six game points total was less than the previous six!

Less of a drop of this season than the previous 3 so maybe next season will be even better.

Same thing happened at espanyol the season before he joined saints.

There's probably something in it but the reality is our players switched off after west brom equalised and bar half hour against Chelsea we were on holidays.
Very disappointing to finish below Woolwich.