Repossessed Cattle Auction(mod warning in op)

BattleCorp

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/50-years-work-is-being-destroyed-in-front-of-my-very-eyes-irelands-fittest-family-forced-to-sell-1000-prized-dairy-cows-34619714.html

I feel bad for the family involved but I really don't understand what the protests are about here.

The family has debts, very large debts. They aren't making the agreed repayments. The normal thing in those circumstances is that if the agreed repayments aren't being made, the bank can sell off assets to recover the debt.

As a person with two mortgages I fully understand that if I can't pay my debts I will lose my property. Doesn't everybody who takes out a loan/mortgage understand this?

Why is there such outrage?


If the bank didn't repossess property/assets when debts aren't paid, then nobody would pay their debts.


Mod-Stay on topic or this will be locked.

darkpagandeath

irish land league gorse hill Anyone ?

Qiaonasen

BattleCorp wrote: »

The family has debts, very large debts. They aren't making the agreed repayments. The normal thing in those circumstances is that if the agreed repayments aren't being made, the bank can sell off assets to recover the debt.

Wish I came from the same place as you come from. Where I come from if you cannot pay your debts you get a tax payer funded bailout.

Birneybau

Saw that on news last night, thought exactly the same o.p.

Create debts, pay them back.

The Backwards Man

You sell your bastes to pay your bills. First rule of farming.


Thousands do it every week and they don't get articles written about them in the Indo.

Knasher

I have some sympathy for them, simply because they are farmers and are probably not qualified to do much else, so it is hard to see where they go from here.

Still it sounds like a problem of their own making, they had 1000 animals, and 200 acres, and couldn't start selling any of it off to service their debt?

P. Breathnach

I'm sorry for the family.

But the involvement of groups like Jerry Beades's one does them no favours, because some potential buyers might be discouraged, and that might reduce the prices achieved. Anything raised by the sale goes towards reducing the family's debts, so a successful sale is in their interest.

Snakeweasel

Running a farm is the same as running a business. He has gone bust, same as many businesses. I sympathise but agree that selling off the herd is the most fitting solution to pay off his debts.

Hurtbuthealing

Family borrow millions.
Family refinance borrowings and add some more.
Family dont pay back loans as agreed.
Family whinge and whine about the little fella being screwed over.
Zero sympathy!

the_syco

Hurtbuthealing wrote: »

Family borrow millions.
Family refinance borrowings and add some more.
Family dont pay back loans as agreed.

Family get Land League backing after paying more monies.
Family find out how useless the Land League is in reality.

According to court reports, ACC Bank sought a High Court judgment against the Kingstons for more than €2.4m last year, after they missed a number of repayments.
The Kingstons took out the loan of €2m in 2007 to restructure their debt with AIB, on interest-only repayments, and the bank advanced a further €500,000 for farm buildings in 2008.

To be fair, the bank gave them 8 years to sort their sh|t out, and the family failed.

mickdw

To be fair I didn't see any level of whinging from the family on the news at least.
Woman said that hopefully when the animals are sold that they might be able to get the farm back. Sounds sensible enough. I don't know what the debt is or how much the animals are worth but you would have to assume that 1000 pedigree cattle would be worth well over 1 million

BattleCorp

mickdw wrote: »

To be fair I didn't see any level of whinging from the family on the news at least.
Woman said that hopefully when the animals are sold that they might be able to get the farm back. Sounds sensible enough. I don't know what the debt is or how much the animals are worth but you would have to assume that 1000 pedigree cattle would be worth well over 1 million

They aren't all pedigree cattle - or at least that is what the article below states. Seems like the animals weren't in tip-top condition and some hadn't been registered properly. All that would devalue the cattle.

And if the cattle are sold for 1 million, that still leaves a debt of 1.4 million. I can't see them holding on to the land.

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/sheriff-granted-injuction-to-prevent-protest-over-auction-of-irelands-fittest-familys-cattle-34617857.html

Badly Drunk Boy

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Thousands do it every week and they don't get articles written about them in the Indo.

But they won Ireland's Fittest Family on RTÉ!

Ireland's Fittest Family!!!

mikeym

I feel sorry for the family but those debts are huge.

BrokenArrows

BattleCorp wrote: »

They aren't all pedigree cattle - or at least that is what the article below states. Seems like the animals weren't in tip-top condition and some hadn't been registered properly. All that would devalue the cattle.

And if the cattle are sold for 1 million, that still leaves a debt of 1.4 million. I can't see them holding on to the land.

http://www.independent.ie/incoming/sheriff-granted-injuction-to-prevent-protest-over-auction-of-irelands-fittest-familys-cattle-34617857.html

From brief research cattle will sell for €1300 per head. 1.3million
Land will be over €10,000 per acre. Sell a bit more than half the land. 1.1million
Bam. Debt is paid and they still have nearly a million worth of land. **** them.

NOTE: 1000 cattle and 200 acres is based on a previous post.

ted1

BrokenArrows wrote: »

From brief research cattle will sell for €1300 per head. 1.3million
Land will be over €10,000 per acre. Sell a bit more than half the land. 1.1million
Bam. Debt is paid and they still have nearly a million worth of land. **** them.

NOTE: 1000 cattle and 200 acres is based on a previous post and not on any actual numbers that im aware of.

But they shot themselves in the foot by trying to keep people away from the auction, so the buyers got them cheaper as they had less competition

HensVassal

BattleCorp wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/50-years-work-is-being-destroyed-in-front-of-my-very-eyes-irelands-fittest-family-forced-to-sell-1000-prized-dairy-cows-34619714.html

I feel bad for the family involved but I really don't understand what the protests are about here.

The family has debts, very large debts. They aren't making the agreed repayments. The normal thing in those circumstances is that if the agreed repayments aren't being made, the bank can sell off assets to recover the debt.

As a person with two mortgages I fully understand that if I can't pay my debts I will lose my property. Doesn't everybody who takes out a loan/mortgage understand this?

Why is there such outrage?

If the bank didn't repossess property/assets when debts aren't paid, then nobody would pay their debts.

Shouldn't the taxpayer bail them out like they bailed out the banks' debts.

BrokenArrows

ted1 wrote: »

But they shot themselves in the foot by trying to keep people away from the auction, so the buyers got them cheaper as they had less competition

Id like to know if they managed to service the debt from the auction or are all totally out of assets and still in debt?

Gatling

Owe millions paid back €1,500 last year what did they expect would happend

BattleCorp

HensVassal wrote: »

Shouldn't the taxpayer bail them out like they bailed out the banks' debts.

Nope, the taxpayer shouldn't bail them out. I've two mortgages. Should I stop paying so that you/the taxpayer will bail me out?

BrokenArrows

how did they manage to keep 1000 cattle on 200 acres anyway.

Everything i can find online says that you should have 1-2 cattle per acre of land. So they were overcrowding the land?

HensVassal

ted1 wrote: »

But they shot themselves in the foot by trying to keep people away from the auction, so the buyers got them cheaper as they had less competition

Probably could have carved up some of the land into half acre sites with planning permission. I'd say you'd get a lot more than 10k for sites.
Looking at daft I saw a a 0.1 acre site for sale for 40k.

Chop up 10 or 15 acres in to sites and flog them. You could get half a million for that, you've still got all your cows and 190 acres and the bank manager won't come near you for years.

As it stands their cows are going to be flogged at fire sale prices and their land is in the possession of the bank. So basically they're living in a house on what amounts now to occupied territory.

BattleCorp

HensVassal wrote: »

Probably could have carved up some of the land into half acre sites with planning permission. I'd say you'd get a lot more than 10k for sites.
Looking at daft I saw a a 0.1 acre site for sale for 40k.

Chop up 10 or 15 acres in to sites and flog them. You could get half a million for that, you've still got all your cows and 190 acres and the bank manager won't come near you for years.

As it stands their cows are going to be flogged at fire sale prices and their land is in the possession of the bank. So basically they're living in a house on what amounts now to occupied territory.

It all depends on where the land is located. Not all fields are suitable as sites. And County Council's don't like giving planning permission to people who aren't from the area.

The family don't appear to have made any effort at getting out of debt. It looks to me like they put their head in the sand.

Cuddlesworth

BattleCorp wrote: »

As a person with two mortgages I fully understand that if I can't pay my debts I will lose my property. Doesn't everybody who takes out a loan/mortgage understand this?

We live in a country that still has the worst rate of mortgage arrears in the world and with a legal system that places every conceivable barrier to recovering the house as collateral for the debt.

Simply put, if you stopped paying your mortgage it would likely be well over a decade of stringing the bank along before they got around to taking action, since there will be at least forty thousand cases in front of you.

lawlolawl

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

We live in a country that still has the worst rate of mortgage arrears in the world and with a legal system that places every conceivable barrier to recovering the house as collateral for the debt.

Simply put, if you stopped paying your mortgage it would likely be well over a decade of stringing the bank along before they got around to taking action, since there will be at least forty thousand cases in front of you.

We're never letting the Brits banks take our land again :mad:

It's a miracle that banks lend to anyone in this country when simply not paying them back is a fairly viable option and you'll get plenty of sympathy for sticking two fingers up at them.

WheatenBriar

the_syco wrote: »

Family get Land League backing after paying more monies.
Family find out how useless the Land League is in reality.


To be fair, the bank gave them 8 years to sort their sh|t out, and the family failed.

To be fair,there are two sides to this story
With the caveat of not knowing the details, going on what this farmer said on Sean o'Rourke this morning,this situation was solvable
Acc initially verbally agreed an extra 250k and reneged on this
He spent that extra based on the verbal
Carrying that cashflow hole is what put the farm under pressure
At one stage they offered him a 50% write down
Presumably this was only doable with him closing ACC with a refinance from another bank (though he didnt say that part)
In 09 with his cashflow at that stage in a mess,no bank would have done that so he ended up with yesterday

You'd have to feel sorry for him as its hard not to think ACC behaved like a vulture fund

Knasher

BrokenArrows wrote: »

how did they manage to keep 1000 cattle on 200 acres anyway.

Everything i can find online says that you should have 1-2 cattle per acre of land. So they were overcrowding the land?

Good question actually. The figures came from the original article (though it turns out I overestimated the land and it is actually 170 acres), but you're absolutely right, that isn't enough for 1000 animals.

I'd guess they were probably renting land as well.

Fluffy Cat 88

The Backwards Man wrote: »

You sell your bastes to pay your bills. First rule of farming.


Thousands do it every week and they don't get articles written about them in the Indo.

Exactly!

Were the cattle feckin pets or what? Breed a few hundred pedegree holstiens and not sell them on! :O

Shame on them for neglecting their bastes too - no sympathy for these people after reading that!

Ronald Wilson Reagan

Sell a families herd and pay a debt for a day, let them keep the farm and pay debt over lifetime.

ofcork

He was on the radio in cork this morning saying he offered to repay the full amount 4 times and was refused.

Guy:Incognito

Ronald Wilson Reagan wrote: »

Sell a families herd and pay a debt for a day, let them keep the farm and pay debt over lifetime.

Or not pay it at all , which is what seems to have been happening. €1,500 in a year wouldnt cover more than a few days worth of repayments on €2m.

ofcork wrote: »

He was on the radio in cork this morning saying he offered to repay the full amount 4 times and was refused.

Did he elaborate? Was is "Heres all your cash in one go" and they refused or was it " I'll pay you the 2m, with no interest, over the next 80 years" ?


A signed loan agreement isnt a basis to start your negotiations. You agree to pay bank the principal plus interest.

SEPT 23 1989

He paid them 100k the 1500 was after the money lenders demanded the full amount

Galwayguy35

BrokenArrows wrote: »

how did they manage to keep 1000 cattle on 200 acres anyway.

Everything i can find online says that you should have 1-2 cattle per acre of land. So they were overcrowding the land?

They were probably in sheds.

HensVassal

BattleCorp wrote: »

Nope, the taxpayer shouldn't bail them out. I've two mortgages. Should I stop paying so that you/the taxpayer will bail me out?

It was a sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek comment mate. Banks incurred massive debts and you are on the hook for them because they got bailed by your taxes. Go into hock to the bank though and they take your cows. The latter is right. The former is wrong. That's all I was saying.

questionmark?

WheatenBriar wrote: »

To be fair,there are two sides to this story
With the caveat of not knowing the details, going on what this farmer said on Sean o'Rourke this morning,this situation was solvable
Acc initially verbally agreed an extra 250k and reneged on this
He spent that extra based on the verbal
Carrying that cashflow hole is what put the farm under pressure
At one stage they offered him a 50% write down
Presumably this was only doable with him closing ACC with a refinance from another bank (though he didnt say that part)
In 09 with his cashflow at that stage in a mess,no bank would have done that so he ended up with yesterday

You'd have to feel sorry for him as its hard not to think ACC behaved like a vulture fund

So they spent €250k that they didn't have. Would it not have made sense to start selling off some land and cows to reduce the running costs and raise some funds instead of getting further into debt. I know you need money to make money but for feck sake know when to stop bringing on more debt.

HensVassal

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

We live in a country that still has the worst rate of mortgage arrears in the world and with a legal system that places every conceivable barrier to recovering the house as collateral for the debt.

Simply put, if you stopped paying your mortgage it would likely be well over a decade of stringing the bank along before they got around to taking action, since there will be at least forty thousand cases in front of you.

Ireland has the worst rate of mortgage arrears in the world?
I find that hard to believe. Do you have a source?

HensVassal

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

They were probably in sheds.

Probably in sheds. And what do you base that dumb statement on? Do you think that you can just store a half ton cow in a shed like an old car?

Iwasfrozen

Knasher wrote: »

I have some sympathy for them, simply because they are farmers and are probably not qualified to do much else, so it is hard to see where they go from here.

Still it sounds like a problem of their own making, they had 1000 animals, and 200 acres, and couldn't start selling any of it off to service their debt?

*Splutters*

"Ah bejayesus haye!!

Ya doun't sell land!!!!!"

relax carry on

questionmark? wrote: »

I know you need money to make money but for feck sake know when to stop bringing on more debt.

Some people just can't see it that way. There are people who run up massive debts in business after business and its always someone else's fault. There are multitudes of people who are currently self employed entrepreneurs who are currently brining more debt on themselves to continue their dreams whatever the cost.

HensVassal

WheatenBriar wrote: »

To be fair,there are two sides to this story
With the caveat of not knowing the details, going on what this farmer said on Sean o'Rourke this morning,this situation was solvable
Acc initially verbally agreed an extra 250k and reneged on this
He spent that extra based on the verbal
Carrying that cashflow hole is what put the farm under pressure
At one stage they offered him a 50% write down
Presumably this was only doable with him closing ACC with a refinance from another bank (though he didnt say that part)
In 09 with his cashflow at that stage in a mess,no bank would have done that so he ended up with yesterday

You'd have to feel sorry for him as its hard not to think ACC behaved like a vulture fund

Well copped.

MIKEKC

WheatenBriar wrote: »

To be fair,there are two sides to this story
With the caveat of not knowing the details, going on what this farmer said on Sean o'Rourke this morning,this situation was solvable
Acc initially verbally agreed an extra 250k and reneged on this
He spent that extra based on the verbal
Carrying that cashflow hole is what put the farm under pressure
At one stage they offered him a 50% write down
Presumably this was only doable with him closing ACC with a refinance from another bank (though he didnt say that part)
In 09 with his cashflow at that stage in a mess,no bank would have done that so he ended up with yesterday

You'd have to feel sorry for him as its hard not to think ACC behaved like a vulture fund

How would anyone spend 250,000 on a verbal agreement. We only have the farmers word that there was an agreement

Galwayguy35

HensVassal wrote: »

Probably in sheds. And what do you base that dumb statement on? Do you think that you can just store a half ton cow in a shed like an old car?

Ironic you call me dumb when it's obvious you know fook all about farming.

Livestock are kept in slatted sheds in winter.

HensVassal

ofcork wrote: »

He was on the radio in cork this morning saying he offered to repay the full amount 4 times and was refused.

Is this TRUE?

HensVassal

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Ironic you call me dumb when it's obvious you know fook all about farming.

Livestock are kept in slatted sheds in winter.

Cows are kept in strawed stalls on either side of a well stocked silage installation all winter. They are billed in march/april for the following winter when they valve in late winter/early spring and milk heavily until November. Yeah I know a bit about dairy farming and I've never seen a cow, bullock, bull, or heifer stuck in a fcuking shed for the winter.

Galwayguy35

HensVassal wrote: »

Cows are kept in strawed stalls on either side of a well stocked silage installation all winter. They are billed in march/april for the following winter when they valve in late winter/early spring and milk heavily until November. Yeah I know a bit about dairy farming and I've never seen a cow, bullock, bull, or heifer stuck in a fcuking shed for the winter.

Cattle are kept in slatted sheds in winter, dairy cows are different.

I didn't realise it was a dairy herd.

And you might want to learn some manners as well.

HensVassal

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Ironic you call me dumb when it's obvious you know fook all about farming.

Livestock are kept in slatted sheds in winter.

I'll give you that some cattle are confined to a byre on sh1tty days and an animal lover farmer would douse them with straw and cow nuts and allow them out to crunch around for a few hours but no farmer locks up 100s of cows for a few months.

RobertKK

I see today the price dairy farmers are paid for milk is being cut again. A few years ago the farmer was being paid around 34C to 35c per litre, Glanbia for example now have a milk market price they pay farmers at 22c per litre.

I didn't like the way that the state and other groups in agriculture were pushing dairy farming, the talk of wanting 50% more output by 2020, but where were the markets? Needed more than China.

So while people were getting in, I was getting out, it is like a rat race, you need to keep expanding to get stay put, and the costs involved in dairying are huge, banks were only too happy to lend to dairy farmers.
I know a dairy farmer whom the bank lent millions to, he is doing ok as far as I know, but I would hate to take on such debt, hate as in wouldn't.

There is a major crisis in dairy farming, was speaking to two neighbours this week who are dairy farmers, all talk about being worn out as it is really work intensive, not surprised the Kingstons won Ireland's fittest family...

I suspect there are a lot more dairy farms in trouble who borrowed heavily to set up, only to see milk prices collapse.

RobertKK

HensVassal wrote: »

I'll give you that some cattle are confined to a byre on sh1tty days and an animal lover farmer would douse them with straw and cow nuts and allow them out to crunch around for a few hours but no farmer locks up 100s of cows for a few months.

They sure do lock them up for months over winter or else the land would be destroyed.

stoplooklisten

They don't like moo-ving

The Backwards Man

A lot of dairy herds are housed all year round in most countries. Ireland is the exception rather than the norm.

Water John

Well said Robert KK.
Dairying, very though business. Price on the floor. Everyone telling farmer expand. He has to, to keep still. Pure threadmill and every one else making money off him.