College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

wakka12

Love to see quays developed for pedestrians cyclists and busses

cgcsb

wakka12 wrote: »

Love to see quays developed for pedestrians cyclists and busses

Cool image. What proposal is that from? (there've been hundereds).

I think the key problem is timing. A north quays car ban should've been implemented 2 years ago along with removal of car spaces

Hurrache

It looks good but the steps would be a non runner due to the tide, they'd become a green slip'n'slide before long unless they were cleaned regularly.

monument

A lot of the details in the An Bord Pleanála planning inspector’s report‪ and the suporting traffic and transport report are highly flawed based on old-school car thinking in denial of modal shift.

For example:

“There are a number of traffic management schemes listed in the EIAR, but no new road space appears to be envisaged. Given the overall population projections for the Dublin Area and the projected increase of 40,000 crossings of the canal cordon in AM peak the next 6 years, it appears anomalous to expect that all increases in transportation demand can be dealt without any additional road space provision. I particularly note that in Section 2.5.5 of the NTA Report relating to the Core Radial Bus Network, reductions in road capacity within the model were predicted in areas where full bus priority could not be accommodated in reality. It is also difficult to reconcile the current (2018) accelerated house building activity with no major road infrastructure plans, given the predominance of houses being built in locations which are largely dependent on road transport.”

And a clear lack of understanding of both induced demand and traffic evaporation:

“The M50 was expanded to cater for existing congestion and provide for further traffic growth. The term ‘traffic evaporation’ was referred to on a number of occasions at the Hearing. While it is questionable if the concept of traffic evaporation is strictly appropriate in the case of College Green, the M50 is a prime candidate for the inverse effect, namely causing or facilitating ‘induced demand’…”

More: http://irishcycle.com/2018/10/23/college-green-plaza-planners-were-wrong-and-their-thinking-would-stop-liveable-cities/

cgcsb

Hurrache wrote: »

It looks good but the steps would be a non runner due to the tide, they'd become a green slip'n'slide before long unless they were cleaned regularly.

Ah maintenance, Dublin's downfall. I'm still waiting for DCC to clear the grass growing on James Joyce Bridge.

CatInABox

monument wrote: »

A lot of the details in the An Bord Pleanála planning inspector’s report‪ and the suporting traffic and transport report are highly flawed based on old-school car thinking in denial of modal shift.

For example:

“There are a number of traffic management schemes listed in the EIAR, but no new road space appears to be envisaged. Given the overall population projections for the Dublin Area and the projected increase of 40,000 crossings of the canal cordon in AM peak the next 6 years, it appears anomalous to expect that all increases in transportation demand can be dealt without any additional road space provision. I particularly note that in Section 2.5.5 of the NTA Report relating to the Core Radial Bus Network, reductions in road capacity within the model were predicted in areas where full bus priority could not be accommodated in reality. It is also difficult to reconcile the current (2018) accelerated house building activity with no major road infrastructure plans, given the predominance of houses being built in locations which are largely dependent on road transport.”

And a clear lack of understanding of both induced demand and traffic evaporation:

“The M50 was expanded to cater for existing congestion and provide for further traffic growth. The term ‘traffic evaporation’ was referred to on a number of occasions at the Hearing. While it is questionable if the concept of traffic evaporation is strictly appropriate in the case of College Green, the M50 is a prime candidate for the inverse effect, namely causing or facilitating ‘induced demand’…”

More: http://irishcycle.com/2018/10/23/college-green-plaza-planners-were-wrong-and-their-thinking-would-stop-liveable-cities/

Jesus fecking Christ, are they serious???? MORE ROAD SPACE???? IN THE CITY CENTRE?????? WHERE????

Seriously, do they think that they could just CPO Trinity and build a motorway through it?

ARGH!!!!!

hmmm

"Given the overall population projections for the Dublin Area and the projected increase of 40,000 crossings of the canal cordon in AM peak the next 6 years, it appears anomalous to expect that all increases in transportation demand can be dealt without any additional road space provision."

Can someone with planning knowledge explain this to the layman? If the roads are chock-a-block, and you choose to buy somewhere where you think you will need a car to cross the canal, why is this anyone else's problem but yours and why do we need to plan for this stupidity?

If as a city we make it clear that no more roads will be provided, wouldn't that drive purchasers of such property to make sure that they can meet their transport needs using public transport, before buying?

prinzeugen

wakka12 wrote: »

Love to see quays developed for pedestrians cyclists and busses

Non starter. From the basic history of Dublin that I have read, most of the North quays are hollow from the Ha penny bridge down river. It would cost millions and millions to make everything Liffey proof.I

Zipppy

prinzeugen wrote:

Non starter. From the basic history of Dublin that I have read, most of the North quays are hollow from the Ha penny bridge down river. It would cost millions and millions to make everything Liffey proof.I

hollow?

wakka12

prinzeugen wrote: »

Non starter. From the basic history of Dublin that I have read, most of the North quays are hollow from the Ha penny bridge down river. It would cost millions and millions to make everything Liffey proof.I

Yes it would cost millions and millions but it would be worth it, similar projects undertaken all over the world

Brian CivilEng

A barrage across the mouth of the Liffey to prevent it becoming tidal would be needed. Could be a good opportunity for flood prevention too.

wakka12

Seine 2017 vs 2018

Watersides are for humans not cars..just look at it teaming with life, amazing.

cgcsb

wakka12 wrote: »

Seine 2017 vs 2018

Watersides are for humans not cars..just look at it teaming with life, amazing.

It wouldn't be as nice on the quays which is always going to be an artery for buses. But a car ban and removing parking will be a hell of an improvement.

Hurrache

cgcsb wrote: »

It wouldn't be as nice on the quays which is always going to be an artery for buses. But a car ban and removing parking will be a hell of an improvement.

I think that's the road in Paris that the court ruled this week to ban all traffic and leave the road to pedestrians and cyclists. A car ban, in tandem with the Liffey cycleway way, would go a long way.

Chris_5339762

cgcsb wrote: »

It wouldn't be as nice on the quays which is always going to be an artery for buses. But a car ban and removing parking will be a hell of an improvement.

The boardwalk is already junkie central. We'd need to do something about that element of society which would take over the area if we did it. But ideally yes, something like that should be done. Bus only (no taxis) on a 2-way south quays perhaps with the north quays pedestrianised?

prinzeugen

Zipppy wrote: »

hollow?

From what I understand, most of the North quays is built on brick arches or concrete stilts depending on how close to the sea you are.

Those arches are full of water or hollow. I did see one old map which suggests that "dry land" begins at about where the spire is on O' Connell St. Everything from there towards the Liffey is reclaimed or built on arches.

Smiles35

Doesn't look like this is going ahead. People have allways seemed to enjoy driving full pelt down that strech anyway.

AlekSmart

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

The boardwalk is already junkie central. We'd need to do something about that element of society which would take over the area if we did it. But ideally yes, something like that should be done. Bus only (no taxis) on a 2-way south quays perhaps with the north quays pedestrianised?

It'll be grand....although Traffic is perhaps NOT the most pressing of issues surrounding ANY attempt to gentrify,or even civilize this area of Dubblin town ?

Justice Peter Charleton may well have a better understanding of the core issues than Owen Keegan or the many other "stakeholders"....

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/invisible-police-force-crying-out-for-leadership-says-charleton-37411415.html

One of the major criticisms he made was that gardaí are not visible on our streets.

He said this was in contrast to other major cities, such as Rome, London and Athens, where police are visible at intersections, at junctions and in public plazas and squares.

"The extraordinary aspect of our police force is that they keep themselves isolated in police stations and then transport themselves around in squad cars," he said.

"It is extraordinarily rare that gardaí are seen in uniform on the streets."

The judge said the failure to police cycle lanes was indicative of this lack of visibility.

"Cars block cycle lanes, intrude on them and endanger cyclists. That happens repeatedly within a minute's walk of Garda stations. So, where are the gardaí? Again, this may be dismissed as a small example, but the consequences of serious injury, for even one person, is a tragedy," he said.

He ain't far wrong,izzy ?

JohnC.

60% want College Green pedestrianised. Amarach survey for Claire Byrne Live and The Journal. 22% say no and 18% don't know.

celtcia

JohnC. wrote: »

Amarach survey for Claire Byrne Live and The Journal. 22% say no and 18% don't know.

More paid advertising by DCC where does this show up in their annual budget? Hope they don't let history repeat itself...

cgcsb

Funny how Suffolk street gets effectively pedestrianised and almost ever bus route in the city rerouted, this is compensated for by a new double bus lane on Pearse St, it was all done as part of the LCC works, no public consultation or media attention at all. This time around with CG people are given a platform to spew their rabble and of course they do.

As a separate note, CG should have just been closed as part of LCC works wit a new double bus lane on the quays, same logic as suffolk st/Pearse st. Nobody would have batted an eye lid.

celtcia

cgcsb wrote: »

Funny how Suffolk street gets effectively pedestrianised and almost ever bus route in the city rerouted, this is compensated for by a new double bus lane on Pearse St, it was all done as part of the LCC works, no public consultation or media attention at all. This time around with CG people are given a platform to spew their rabble and of course they do.

As a separate note, CG should have just been closed as part of LCC works wit a new double bus lane on the quays, same logic as suffolk st/Pearse st. Nobody would have batted an eye lid.

The Green Party should move their offices from Suffolk St... Hint Hint...

If the Buses where allowed back to Green HQ maybe College Green would not have failed...

The Green Party in Ireland support unsafe cycling lanes, less bicycle spaces and no grass at College Green.

Green in name only when will they be Green again?

n!ghtmancometh

JohnC. wrote: »

60% want College Green pedestrianised. Amarach survey for Claire Byrne Live and The Journal. 22% say no and 18% don't know.

How many of those 60% are solely reliant on the bus to commute from outer suburbs with no alternative transport, and would be massively negatively impacted by the pedestrianised CG?

If CG is to be pedestrianised, then all private traffic must be banned from the quays. Its completely unfair to just shunt routes like 13/40/27 down the already traffic choked quays and expect commuters from outer suburbs (who pay the same fares as their well heeled green line social betters) to grin and bear it.

cgcsb

Suffolk st is an infinitely superior pedestrian experience. It use to be a horrific wall of yellow double decker with completely unsafe numbers of pedestrians. ABP didn't have a problem with pedestrian saftey back then.

cgcsb

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

How many of those 60% are solely reliant on the bus to commute from outer suburbs with no alternative transport, and would be massively negatively impacted by the pedestrianised CG?

If CG is to be pedestrianised, then all private traffic must be banned from the quays. Its completely unfair to just shunt routes like 13/40/27 down the already traffic choked quays and expect commuters from outer suburbs (who pay the same fares as their well heeled green line social betters) to grin and bear it.

There'll be a car ban on the quays. You can step down from defcon 1 on your class warfare path.

Muahahaha

Latest news on this is that DCC will submit a revised plan to ABP in the new year. The article I read didnt reveal which month but would imagine it should happen before March is out.

CatInABox

Muahahaha wrote: »

Latest news on this is that DCC will submit a revised plan to ABP in the new year. The article I read didnt reveal which month but would imagine it should happen before March is out.

Figured this would be the case, it's the cheapest and easiest route. It's also the right route to take, everything else gets quite complicated. I do wonder how they're going to fix the parts that ABP disagreed with though, not sure how you fix the fact that ABP doesn't believe in modern traffic management principles.

Last Stop

cgcsb wrote: »

Funny how Suffolk street gets effectively pedestrianised and almost ever bus route in the city rerouted, this is compensated for by a new double bus lane on Pearse St, it was all done as part of the LCC works, no public consultation or media attention at all. This time around with CG people are given a platform to spew their rabble and of course they do.

As a separate note, CG should have just been closed as part of LCC works wit a new double bus lane on the quays, same logic as suffolk st/Pearse st. Nobody would have batted an eye lid.

100% agree with this.

The ideal thing to do now would be to build the Lucan Luas and connect it to Luas Cross City at College Green.
This would create the "excuse" to move all the traffic to the BOI side and create a plaza in front of Abercrombie etc.

A 5m wide lane in each direction would provide for safe cycling while also reducing the number of pedestrian crossings to 1.

If you provide a Luas stop at George's St. you still have the option of running trams to there as well as a loop to/from Broomsbridge (unlike presently) if you wanted to close College Green fully for a concert etc. This would also create a light rail NETWORK where all light rail services interlink with each other through the one way cross city loop. This would give Dublin a great central connection similar to the Chicago Loop, including the metro stop on the northern part of O'Connell.

To me the biggest issue around College Green isn't the traffic but the way it flows (or doesn't). If you moved it all to one side, moving the bus stops slightly further west down Dame st, everything moves though the bottleneck rather than stopping right in the middle of it as presently. I could never understand the attraction of a full pedestrianisation as it removes on the most important E-W routes in the city and there's not a lot of retail potential on the BOI side anyway. Sure it's a nice looking building but in terms of potential, its pretty limited.

Additionally, I would divert all buses that use Hawkins street to College Green; down Poolbeg st. onto a new contraflow lane on Tara st. and back onto Pearse st, freeing up the junction for trams. In an ideal world, all the Garda cars on Pearse st. would park in an underground car park as part of the Apollo/ Hawkins house redevelopment but alas I think we missed the boat on that one.

celtcia

Muahahaha wrote: »

Latest news on this is that DCC will submit a revised plan to ABP in the new year. The article I read didnt reveal which month but would imagine it should happen before March is out.

Why the team should be REPLACED...

There where so many holes in the application...

Basically they needed a micro model...
Did anyone actually read the report?

AlekSmart

Last Stop wrote: »

100% agree with this.

The ideal thing to do now would be to build the Lucan Luas and connect it to Luas Cross City at College Green.
This would create the "excuse" to move all the traffic to the BOI side and create a plaza in front of Abercrombie etc.

A 5m wide lane in each direction would provide for safe cycling while also reducing the number of pedestrian crossings to 1.

If you provide a Luas stop at George's St. you still have the option of running trams to there as well as a loop to/from Broomsbridge (unlike presently) if you wanted to close College Green fully for a concert etc. This would also create a light rail NETWORK where all light rail services interlink with each other through the one way cross city loop. This would give Dublin a great central connection similar to the Chicago Loop, including the metro stop on the northern part of O'Connell.

To me the biggest issue around College Green isn't the traffic but the way it flows (or doesn't). If you moved it all to one side, moving the bus stops slightly further west down Dame st, everything moves though the bottleneck rather than stopping right in the middle of it as presently. I could never understand the attraction of a full pedestrianisation as it removes on the most important E-W routes in the city and there's not a lot of retail potential on the BOI side anyway. Sure it's a nice looking building but in terms of potential, its pretty limited.

Additionally, I would divert all buses that use Hawkins street to College Green; down Poolbeg st. onto a new contraflow lane on Tara st. and back onto Pearse st, freeing up the junction for trams. In an ideal world, all the Garda cars on Pearse st. would park in an underground car park as part of the Apollo/ Hawkins house redevelopment but alas I think we missed the boat on that one.

Evidence of the "Missed Boat" principles which guide Dublin's planners can be found daily in the environs of "The Criminal Courts of Justice" building on Parkgate Street....."Official Vehicles" littering the pavement and fast becoming as "Traditional" as a Ginger haired coleen on a John Hinde postcard !!

"Underground Car Park ....oh yea..they have dem out forren don't dey ??" :rolleyes: