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Should the purchase of sex be legal or illegal in Ireland?
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silverharp wrote: »Sure, there probably are other professions that have a burnout rate or lead to depression etc. but there is a stigma to sex work and an 18 or 19 year old might equate it to "au pairing" for a few years but it might not be so easy.
That's a bit of a shift though. You started talking about psychological consequences. But in replying to me here you have shifted to stigma.
They are two entirely different things. Though there is some overlap. The stigma of the work likely does lend a lot to the consequences sex workers suffer. Physical and psychological. For example the stigma of sex work makes sex workers less likely to report rape, abuse or other crimes against them.
But surely normalization though legalization and regulation is the best way to go to reduce the stigma and therefore help alleviate that issue? It would seem to me that making it illegal, and pushing it underground, has the exact opposite effect.silverharp wrote: »moral or immoral are not words I would use but on the face of it, it could be damaging to the woman depending on what her future goals are
Again this is not unique to sex work. There are many roles one might enter that previous roles might preclude you from or at least make it more difficult. This is for the person making such choices to be aware of themselves.
That said I wonder how much of an effect it actually does have. It is not like sex workers put sex work on their CV, or that people even know they were ever sex workers. There may even be people in your own inner circles, social or family, who have done sex work and you simply do not know.
As for a blank CV I wonder if there are any figures on how many sex workers do it full time or part time. Most of the sex workers I ever knew were actually college girls who were using sex work.... usually in the numbers of 1 or 2 clients a month..... often the same client or clients repeated rather than different ones each time....... so not exactly a lot.......... to subsidize their educational income during the college period.
And there is that half comedy image sometimes used of phone sex workers doing their job while actually doing the ironing.
So no gaps in CV there. It is not a given. But again anyone making a choice to do anything that will leave a gap on their CV.... should be doing so with eyes open. That much I would certainly agree on.
But again remember that the post you replied to was me questioning the morality and legality of prostitution with someone. And the concerns you list are not exactly relevant to that. They are concerns, sure, but not really ones that say anything about the point you originally replied to.silverharp wrote: »well I would because I would like to think I had passed on values like investing in oneself and delayed gratification. A prostitute would strike me as someone that wants to short circuit long term planning and just wants "shiny" things now.
Not a view of sex workers I share. I think the reasons people get into sex work are as diverse as any other industry. Merely assuming they are doing so to get pointless material possessions in the short term is not an assumption I share or see much basis for.
Certainly not one SINGLE example of sex workers I have known personally even remotely fit into this assumption. Nor any of the ones I have read about either.0 -
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nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »That's a bit of a shift though. You started talking about psychological consequences. But in replying to me here you have shifted to stigma.
They are two entirely different things. Though there is some overlap. The stigma of the work likely does lend a lot to the consequences sex workers suffer. Physical and psychological. For example the stigma of sex work makes sex workers less likely to report rape, abuse or other crimes against them.
But surely normalization though legalization and regulation is the best way to go to reduce the stigma and therefore help alleviate that issue? It would seem to me that making it illegal, and pushing it underground, has the exact opposite effect.
not a shift, I just said there are consequences that such an individual may not have thought about later on I mentioned possible psychological issues. I agree that there should not be any legal barriers and there should be sensible regulations but I still cant see a day where nobody has an opinion on whether someone is a teacher versus someone that is a prostitute hence there will always be consequences.nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »Again this is not unique to sex work. There are many roles one might enter that previous roles might preclude you from or at least make it more difficult. This is for the person making such choices to be aware of themselves.
That said I wonder how much of an effect it actually does have. It is not like sex workers put sex work on their CV, or that people even know they were ever sex workers. There may even be people in your own inner circles, social or family, who have done sex work and you simply do not know.
As for a blank CV I wonder if there are any figures on how many sex workers do it full time or part time. Most of the sex workers I ever knew were actually college girls who were using sex work.... usually in the numbers of 1 or 2 clients a month..... often the same client or clients repeated rather than different ones each time....... so not exactly a lot.......... to subsidize their educational income during the college period.
And there is that half comedy image sometimes used of phone sex workers doing their job while actually doing the ironing.
So no gaps in CV there. It is not a given. But again anyone making a choice to do anything that will leave a gap on their CV.... should be doing so with eyes open. That much I would certainly agree on.
But again remember that the post you replied to was me questioning the morality and legality of prostitution with someone. And the concerns you list are not exactly relevant to that. They are concerns, sure, but not really ones that say anything about the point you originally replied to.
I tend to use "moral" for things where you would damage another individual so its not a word I would use with prostitution. it just comes down to whether individuals will judge the individual negatively in certain situations. So even if its a part time college girl , some might think they are being inventive to get around a money issue and others might view her as having some character flawsnozzferrahhtoo wrote: »Not a view of sex workers I share. I think the reasons people get into sex work are as diverse as any other industry. Merely assuming they are doing so to get pointless material possessions in the short term is not an assumption I share or see much basis for.
Certainly not one SINGLE example of sex workers I have known personally even remotely fit into this assumption. Nor any of the ones I have read about either.
it depends on the situation, someone who finds themselves in financial distress maybe with kids would in my mind be making a logical choice. At that stage protecting their reputation isn't of high concern.
A college student on the other hand might be risking exposure later which would damage their reputation. I just cant think why a girl say 18-30 would be better off by either being a part time or full time prostitute, all the risks seem to be to the downside.A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »I doubt they are alone in this. I would be surprised if there are not toilet cleaners, or repo-men, who do not fabricate some level of narrative to others to not have to admit what it is they do. Not that there is anything WRONG with either of those careers.............. just like there is nothing WRONG with prostitution that anyone on this thread appears capable of describing......... but as long as people judge others for what they do, and why they do it, there will be people who are not honest about what they do.
But I still struggle to link that with my original points about the morality of prostitution in and of itself, or the discussion on psychological consequences. I would be MUCH less worried about the psychological consequences of someone who feels they can not be honest about their source of income.... than I would be about a large plethora of other very real consequences in many very real "legitimate" career paths.
the original post you framed it as "personal taste" as opposed to not moral to the other poster. Im just suggesting that its somewhere between the 2nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
Nor is being a tax collector or repo-man in some ways. Or the person who puts the parking tickets on cars. But as I said I acknowledge the stigmatization of the career of sex work itself, I just struggle to see it's relevance to the topic of the thread which is about whether it should be legal or illegal.
And where I do see it's relevance, it is only to point out that making it illegal exacerbates the effects of that.... rather than addresses or controls it. So for those people who are genuinely worried about nothing more than the effects of that stigma on people......... it would seem it being legal is more likely to address those concerns than the opposite.
whats wrong with being a tax collector ?
its reasonable to discuss the issues around prostitution much like if one was discussing legalising cocaine either one in some way is tied up with protecting people from themselves. I dont think its the government's job but then again just because something is legal doesnt mean society should not be critical of the particular activity.nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
I am afraid I can no more talk for "most people" than you can. I can just talk for me. And as I said the values I would release my child with would be to be themselves, be capable of making their own choices, find the best ways (including career) to make themselves happy in life. And to do ALL of the above while minimizing harm and suffering to others.
And NOTHING on that list is precluded by entering into sex work, if that be their choice. Nor do I see the basis for asserting the sale of sex not to be an "acceptable value". That sounds to me a little like allowing the values to influence thinking, rather than thinking influencing values.
that is society for you "most people" arent going to sit down and trash out the merits or not of being a prostitute. you are likely to be negatively judged for having that past or present.A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer
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Can't see how any parent would aspire for their child to grow up and become a sex worker and there is a reason for that.
Sure and there is a reason I do not aspire for them to be toilet cleaners, repo-men, or night club security too. Many of those reasons are my own biases. But there are other reasons too. But so what? It is not my choice to make and my aspirations are irrelevant. What I can, and do, aspire towards is children capable of making their own INFORMED decisions as to what is best for them. And I aspire to be proud of them when they reach that point and they do so.
Helping children find their own way in life, happily and without harming others, should be the aspirations of a parent.... not the attempts to mold them into, or away from, what you want them to be.One thing I notice about these conversations is that a lot of people say, for example "I would never visit a sex worker but if someone else wants to, that's fine" , "you would have to put a gun to my head before I would become a sex worker but sex work is fine if somebody makes that choice". In other words, "it's not ok for me. It's ok for someone else."
And is there anything wrong with that? I would say the same thing about many other things. I would not want to be a boxer. Or watch the sport of boxing. I am happy for others to do either however. I would not want to be a priest or a theist. But I have nothing against other people doing it. I would not want to work with children, such as in a Creche or Kindergarten scenario. I am happy for others to do it. I would not like S&M sex myself but lots of people are into that, so so what?
What is wrong with not wanting something for yourself, but realizing that it is none of your business if anyone else wants it?Because sex workers don't have a CHOICE when it comes to their "customers". They could turn down clients but how many times can they turn away clients when it starts to eat into their bread and butter.
So they do not have a choice but they have a choice Your post does not appear to be internally coherent here. If they can turn down clients, then they have a choice. Simple as that.
But if they veto too many customers then of course, they will not make ends meet. But so what? That is true of any business. The bakery or cafe near to you right now, the local portrait artist, the musician, the doctor.... what career is this NOT true of???
Forget sex work entirely, replace everything you just said word for word with a simple masseuse. Your whole post makes exactly as much sense if you make that 1:1 direct replacement.0 -
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »So what.
I fixed your post for you.
Oh i never thought of it that way by comparing sex and sexuality to toilet work and other professions. Yea because people experience many of the same feelings cleaning their toilet as they do when they are getting it on.0 -
I fixed your post for you.
Oh i never thought of it that way by comparing sex and sexuality to toilet work and other professions. Yea because people experience many of the same feelings cleaning their toilet as they do when they are getting it on.
Who the hell do you think you are? You are not the boss of other people and the moral authority over their feelings.0 -
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I fixed your post for you.
Oh i never thought of it that way by comparing sex and sexuality to toilet work and other professions. Yea because people experience many of the same feelings cleaning their toilet as they do when they are getting it on.
If you have to go delberately off on a silly tangent to avoid answering, you have lost the arguement0
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