Berserker wrote: » I have strong feelings on this issue. It should be illegal to buy and sell sex in Ireland. Both parties, caught in the act, should be prosecuted (jailed).
Berserker wrote: » I have strong feelings on this issue. It should be illegal to buy and sell sex in Ireland. Both parties, caught in the act, should be prosecuted (jailed). The police here could shut down this "business" or the vast majority of it quite quickly by performing a series of aggressive raids on known hotels and residences, from which prostitution is sold. That'd make the men and women who buy sex think twice. If men and women weren't willing to pay for it, the prostitutes wouldn't work here.
silverharp wrote: » Sure, there probably are other professions that have a burnout rate or lead to depression etc. but there is a stigma to sex work and an 18 or 19 year old might equate it to "au pairing" for a few years but it might not be so easy.
silverharp wrote: » moral or immoral are not words I would use but on the face of it, it could be damaging to the woman depending on what her future goals are
silverharp wrote: » well I would because I would like to think I had passed on values like investing in oneself and delayed gratification. A prostitute would strike me as someone that wants to short circuit long term planning and just wants "shiny" things now.
Speedwell wrote: » Well, then, they seem to be your psychological consequences.
silverharp wrote: » everybody judges everybody else in society, whether all assessments are correct is one thing but they cant be my "psychological consequences". Surely if someone introduced themselves to you as an Engineer you would have an opinion about them and if a second person introduced themselves as a people trafficker you would have a different opinion about them?
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » That's a bit of a shift though. You started talking about psychological consequences. But in replying to me here you have shifted to stigma. They are two entirely different things. Though there is some overlap. The stigma of the work likely does lend a lot to the consequences sex workers suffer. Physical and psychological. For example the stigma of sex work makes sex workers less likely to report rape, abuse or other crimes against them. But surely normalization though legalization and regulation is the best way to go to reduce the stigma and therefore help alleviate that issue? It would seem to me that making it illegal, and pushing it underground, has the exact opposite effect.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » Again this is not unique to sex work. There are many roles one might enter that previous roles might preclude you from or at least make it more difficult. This is for the person making such choices to be aware of themselves. That said I wonder how much of an effect it actually does have. It is not like sex workers put sex work on their CV, or that people even know they were ever sex workers. There may even be people in your own inner circles, social or family, who have done sex work and you simply do not know. As for a blank CV I wonder if there are any figures on how many sex workers do it full time or part time. Most of the sex workers I ever knew were actually college girls who were using sex work.... usually in the numbers of 1 or 2 clients a month..... often the same client or clients repeated rather than different ones each time....... so not exactly a lot.......... to subsidize their educational income during the college period. And there is that half comedy image sometimes used of phone sex workers doing their job while actually doing the ironing. So no gaps in CV there. It is not a given. But again anyone making a choice to do anything that will leave a gap on their CV.... should be doing so with eyes open. That much I would certainly agree on. But again remember that the post you replied to was me questioning the morality and legality of prostitution with someone. And the concerns you list are not exactly relevant to that. They are concerns, sure, but not really ones that say anything about the point you originally replied to.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » Not a view of sex workers I share. I think the reasons people get into sex work are as diverse as any other industry. Merely assuming they are doing so to get pointless material possessions in the short term is not an assumption I share or see much basis for. Certainly not one SINGLE example of sex workers I have known personally even remotely fit into this assumption. Nor any of the ones I have read about either.
armaghlad wrote: » Much like the war on drugs. It's a battle that can never be won. Once people like you finally realise this, you might actually decide that dealing with the "problem" head-on, rather than outlawing it and burying your head in the sand will be a much better way of addressing it. You can't criminalise consensual sex.
hinault wrote: » In this case there is no consensuality.
armaghlad wrote: » You'll have to explain that.
hinault wrote: » Should the purchase of sex be legal or illegal in Ireland?
armaghlad wrote: » That logic makes no sense.
silverharp wrote: » not a shift
silverharp wrote: » I still cant see a day where nobody has an opinion on whether someone is a teacher versus someone that is a prostitute hence there will always be consequences.
silverharp wrote: » I tend to use "moral" for things where you would damage another individual so its not a word I would use with prostitution.
silverharp wrote: » it just comes down to whether individuals will judge the individual negatively in certain situations.
silverharp wrote: » A college student on the other hand might be risking exposure later which would damage their reputation.
Speedwell wrote: » They're your psychological consequences because you're the one suffering voluntarily for the choices made by someone else, choices that don't affect you unless your theoretical daughter in prostitution involves you directly. They're not her psychological consequences unless she's the one who suffers them, which is not in evidence.
silverharp wrote: » If you wanted to introduce data, I would like to see a good study on how Prostitutes fare in life, do they have higher drug use , more health issues either physically or mentally or do they have more failed relationships.
silverharp wrote: » I don't quite get you. We live in a society where based on your point of view we judge others behaviour or lifestyles. whether you work hard or are lazy , whether you create your wealth or steal it. Its not about me as an individual, its about my interpretation of the shared values which lead to success both careerwise and socially. My daughter isn't theoretical , and I would indeed be horrified if she was to become a sex worker in the future as an adult, most parents would agree with me. If you wanted to introduce data, I would like to see a good study on how Prostitutes fare in life, do they have higher drug use , more health issues either physically or mentally or do they have more failed relationships.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » Yet the distinction between psychological consequences and stigma should still be clear. Stigma is not a psychological consequence. It might LEAD to one, but that is a kind shift in discussion between psychological consequences, and causes of psychological consequences.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » But again that is not a consequence. What might lead FROM being judged in this fashion might be, but the judgement itself is not. The same point could be made about toilet cleaners, repo-men, and trained government killers. That people might judge you for you job is quite clear. As I said the post you originally replied to from me was a post relating to the morality of prostitution. And I am not seeing how a discussion on how people might judge a prostitute for being a prostitute is relevant to what you originally replied to?
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » So would I to a point, but I would mediate that with things like consent too. For example the sport of Boxing.... clearly the goal is to perform some damage to your opponent in Boxing. But your opponent has consented to be there in that knowledge. So damage alone is not enough to mediate morality on.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » Which has nothing to do with whether sex work is moral or not. I hate to keep saying that, but I genuinely do not see how any of this is relevant to where you entered into the discussion with me. People judge other people for the work they do, and why they do it. I get that. You evidenced this yourself by your own judgement of why they do this kind of work.... a judgement which does not appear to map onto the reality I have observed. But so what? What is the point I am missing here?
Speedwell wrote: » I was talking about when you said, "One could see the that there might be psychological consequences of working in the sex industry or otherwise miscalculating the situation. I would certainly think I'd have failed as a parent if my daughter ended up in the sex industry." Otherwise your paternalism is unwarranted and unwelcome.
silverharp wrote: » As a general principle though people get esteem by having a roll in the community. A prostitute mostly has to live a double life where that part of her life has to be contained, most likely she cant tell her friends or family or is living away from home and inventing a cover story life for her family that isn't real. Its a messy situation one way or another. Sure , And if someone is a trained government killer one might judge its not a profession to jump at. As for moral , just to expand the discussion beyond legal and moral as part of this has to do with how society judges people
silverharp wrote: » boxing is a different thing altogether
silverharp wrote: » its clearly not a socially acceptable profession
silverharp wrote: » Selling oneself for sex would certainly not be on that list as an acceptable value and I could make the reasonable assumption that most people would think the same.
silverharp wrote: » My paternalism to my kids is warranted because I have to release my kids into the world in a few years equipped with a set of values. Selling oneself for sex would certainly not be on that list as an acceptable value and I could make the reasonable assumption that most people would think the same.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » I doubt they are alone in this. I would be surprised if there are not toilet cleaners, or repo-men, who do not fabricate some level of narrative to others to not have to admit what it is they do. Not that there is anything WRONG with either of those careers.............. just like there is nothing WRONG with prostitution that anyone on this thread appears capable of describing......... but as long as people judge others for what they do, and why they do it, there will be people who are not honest about what they do. But I still struggle to link that with my original points about the morality of prostitution in and of itself, or the discussion on psychological consequences. I would be MUCH less worried about the psychological consequences of someone who feels they can not be honest about their source of income.... than I would be about a large plethora of other very real consequences in many very real "legitimate" career paths.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » Nor is being a tax collector or repo-man in some ways. Or the person who puts the parking tickets on cars. But as I said I acknowledge the stigmatization of the career of sex work itself, I just struggle to see it's relevance to the topic of the thread which is about whether it should be legal or illegal. And where I do see it's relevance, it is only to point out that making it illegal exacerbates the effects of that.... rather than addresses or controls it. So for those people who are genuinely worried about nothing more than the effects of that stigma on people......... it would seem it being legal is more likely to address those concerns than the opposite.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » I am afraid I can no more talk for "most people" than you can. I can just talk for me. And as I said the values I would release my child with would be to be themselves, be capable of making their own choices, find the best ways (including career) to make themselves happy in life. And to do ALL of the above while minimizing harm and suffering to others. And NOTHING on that list is precluded by entering into sex work, if that be their choice. Nor do I see the basis for asserting the sale of sex not to be an "acceptable value". That sounds to me a little like allowing the values to influence thinking, rather than thinking influencing values.
silverharp wrote: » the original post you framed it as "personal taste" as opposed to not moral to the other poster. Im just suggesting that its somewhere between the 2
silverharp wrote: » whats wrong with being a tax collector ?
silverharp wrote: » just because something is legal doesnt mean society should not be critical of the particular activity.
silverharp wrote: » that is society for you "most people" arent going to sit down and trash out the merits or not of being a prostitute. you are likely to be negatively judged for having that past or present.
Olishi4 wrote: » Can't see how any parent would aspire for their child to grow up and become a sex worker and there is a reason for that.
Olishi4 wrote: » One thing I notice about these conversations is that a lot of people say, for example "I would never visit a sex worker but if someone else wants to, that's fine" , "you would have to put a gun to my head before I would become a sex worker but sex work is fine if somebody makes that choice". In other words, "it's not ok for me. It's ok for someone else."
Olishi4 wrote: » Because sex workers don't have a CHOICE when it comes to their "customers". They could turn down clients but how many times can they turn away clients when it starts to eat into their bread and butter.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » So what.
Olishi4 wrote: » I fixed your post for you. Oh i never thought of it that way by comparing sex and sexuality to toilet work and other professions. Yea because people experience many of the same feelings cleaning their toilet as they do when they are getting it on.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » Possible of course. But the complete dearth of moral arguments against it that we are witnessing on this thread have simply pushed my suspicions much further towards one than the other.
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » Nothing that I personally subscribe to, but I gather they are not the most popular of people. Nor are repo men or people who distribute parking tickets or wheel clamps. My point was not whether there is anything wrong with those careers.... there is not......... but that despite there being nothing wrong with them people are still judged for them. There is also nothing wrong with being a politician or a bank manager, but look at the level of hatred and suspicion they garner merely as a matter of course BEFORE they actually do anything wrong. There is nothing wrong with being atheist either, yet how much suspicion and hatred and judgement do they attract?
nozzferrahhtoo wrote: » The point merely being that the relevancy of the stigma of being a sex worker is very low at the best of times, and non-existent in terms of the ACTUAL topic of the thread which is, we might recall, as to whether prostitution should be legal or illegal in Ireland.
Olishi4 wrote: » I fixed your post for you.
Olishi4 wrote: » Oh i never thought of it that way by comparing sex and sexuality to toilet work and other professions. Yea because people experience many of the same feelings cleaning their toilet as they do when they are getting it on.
